Captain Elreth

Laiho Vanallo's page

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Snowlilly wrote:
Laiho Vanallo wrote:
Sphere of annihilation? Maybe?

The body reforms after 3 rounds.

The Tarrasque is more plot device than monster. You can beat it down, imprison it, or send it somewhere else. It never truly goes away.

Yeah but if the sphere would stay in place, would the body just get destroyed over and over again and prevent the regeneration from kicking in?

Well until somebody moved the sphere out of the spot?

Also the regeneration rules are as follow:

Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

however the sphere of annihilation state:

"A sphere of annihilation is a globe of absolute blackness 2 feet in diameter. Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character."

We are not talking about a instant death effect or disintegration effect here. All the matter composing the Tarasque would be sucked into the void.

Sphere of annihilation? Maybe?

I played it as the Dude from the Big Lebowsky.

It made the best character ever, maxed out diplomacy, took profession philosopher and bowler. Best druid I ever played.

I destroyed most villains with dialogue and cunning use of the F word.

If that did not work I had my bear named "Rug" mauled them, needless to say nobody dared urinate on the "Rug".

"The Dude Abides"

I honestly do not like cleave/greater cleave, in theory its a good feat and allow you to move and hit two target, the issue is that they absolutely need to be a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe you hit because of RAW.

So if you are fighting let's say 4 goblins at level 1 with your fighter and that they are positioned this way:


On round 1 you strike the goblin to the top left with cleave, and then you get one additional attack against the goblin to the right, you hit and kill both these goblin, great!

on round 2 the battle field look that way:


Now you cannot cleave because these two goblins are not adjacent.

Furthermore as your character level up and fight enemies with higher mobility like flying monsters, burrowing monsters & climbing creature.
The opportunity to use cleave and greater cleave will get lower and lower.
Event with the applications of feats like lunge and reach weapons as long your enemies are not adjacent you will not be able to cleave.

So after all the spiel, why would you take cleave early game?
Because; "upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned."

Meaning that for a 2 Handed weapon melee fighter it's actually a good way to strike twice in a turn when the opportunity present itself at low level and then trade that feat for something else around level 4 or 8.

Beside this specific case I do not see why anyone would take that feat, especially feat starved classes.

Death is peace in a way.

Most people if given a chance to be risen would probably refuse after tasting afterlife, a life free of pain and suffering close to their gods.

Only heroes, the truly brave and bold would accept to go back and continue their quests.

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If my memory does not play any trick on me detect evil is a cone, simply stand behind the paladin at all time.

Also mess up the expectation of what evil look like.

If you walk around in dark robes wear mascara and overall look like somebody you would not let your kids approach, chances are the paladin will try to focus the detect evil on you.

Describe your character clothes being white and pure with highlights of gold, dont show off your deity symbol too often or better just buy a holy symbol of a good aligned religion and wear it proudly. Always be smiling and pious looking for the right opportunity to do the bad thing when no one is looking.

Your domain is trickery act like it.

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569: Robes are not dresses!

A copper reinforced book, bound in chemically treated leather.
An intricate sculpted quartz eye is embedded on the front cover.

It contain a 350 page dissertation about how robes that certain arcane caster prefer are not dresses. The book contain a large collection of facts and historical anecdotes about robes and dresses. There is also about 20 pages of Various depiction of epic wizards fighting dragons and all sorts of monstrosities present in each chapter of the book.

If the book is held facing a garment that is either a robe or a dress the book will shout:



Kirth Gersen wrote:
Laiho Vanallo wrote:

Once again, really it boils down to what kind of game you are playing.

Dare I adventure saying that mechanically, yeah a lot of weapons are inferior when you compare them to other ones.

Now imagine the weapons were more or less equal, with equal investment. Not the same -- some would have a bigger crit range, others do more base damage, others have fun properties like trip or whatever -- but more or less even.

In that case, it wouldn't matter what kind of game you were playing. The person who wanted a sword-cane could select that, without that choice gimping his character....=

Yeah I get where you are coming from.

Fact is that in your example with the sword cane is a very good weapon in the proper context (I assume we are talking about the entry in ultimate equipment.)

The sword cane of ultimate equipment can be drawn as a swift action (free action, if you have the quick draw feat) without bringing attention to yourself, it's "finessable". It's a wonderful weapon under certain circumstances, like in the hands of an assassin that can observe his or her target for 3 turn, then draw the sword as a swift action and strike the flatfooted target down. Works well on sneak attack too.

But once again people don't read that part of the weapon description they just check the 1d6 damage and the X2 crit modifier and assume it's a bad weapon.

Depend really on what type of game you play.

A few months, back we played a game where magical weapons/armors where very rare.

At level 3 I finally found a "+1 weapon" it was a battle axe.
Normally I would have sold it and saved up to upgrade my masterwork scimitar, but knowing how rare these where I actually took weapon focus battle axe and got to use that weapon well into my level 8.

Now on paper the battle axe does not sound that great, it's a 1d8 damage is great but when compared to a long sword it has an inferior crit range.
But did I have fun the few times I managed to land that sweet X3 critical damage while 2 handing that weapon.

Once again, really it boils down to what kind of game you are playing.
Dare I adventure saying that mechanically, yeah a lot of weapons are inferior when you compare them to other ones.

The chackram cost 1 gp, can deal 1d8 slashing damage with a range of 30 feet, it also weight one pound.
The Pilum cost 5 gp, can deal the same amount of damage, has a range of 20 feet, it weight 4 pounds, when it hit a target they lose their shield bonus if they are wielding one until they take a standard action.

I have yet, in over 4 years of playing this game intensely seen one player use a Pilum. Most martials I played with jump on the opportunity to get the chakram, it's cheap, light and has great range. Some weapons just get less love and/or are looking like strategically inferior choices, often the determining factor of a weapon will be it's raw damage output, it's ability to have reach and crit range and nothing else.

There are plenty of options!

Bards+Paladin! Pretty much can be built into some sort of gish like character right out the box. Max out charisma and STR take 2 levels in paladin for incredible saves, you can even cast in light armor without any problem!

Sorcerer + Paladin + dragon disciple is a classic!

I know you said you really wanted arcane magic but a druid can be a very good martial combatant + full caster right out the box.

Your main problem will be action economy like many people pointed out. Spells that can be used to buff yourself out of combat will be key to your build, you could also grab a few summoning spells, as a character especially if you are playing core only you will have to be very smart about your spell selection and plan ahead.

From personal experience, having a lot of experienced players with strong character builds in a game is fun. As a GM in a situation like that, I feel that can really go all out and have monster encounter with interesting and unique strategies.

On the other hand if players bring to the table barely functional characters I feel I have to put my little white silk glove and be super gentle with them. It's boring; I would rather have the insanely OP optimized divination wizard with exquisite feat selection at my table than a player bringing a out of the box character what has a hard time taking on 2 goblins.

People call it cheese, I call it being dedicated to the game.
If as a player you take the time to learn about the system and make yourself a walking demi-god, you gained that right because you took the time and effort.

That said, I do hate when a player just brings a build they find on a forum and don't understand why it's strong and how the rules interact together.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

@ Laiho Vanallo: Courageous no longer works the way you think it does. Relevant FAQ that shows errata.

Secondly, Whirlwind Attack requires 2 feats outside of what the character should otherwise go for. Combat Expertise can fit Guts, but Spring Attack? No way.

Lastly, Whirlwind Attack isn't particularly effective for this character, even with Lunge. Although I understand that Guts has incredible Reach with his weapon, that cannot be properly emulated with a Sword, because most all Reach weapons are Polearms.

Cleave also isn't particularly effective, primarily because you would need Dwarf-specific feats to be able to properly clear enemies all around you.

Yeah I was really going for the theme less than the usefulness.

Thank you for the FAQ on courageous.

I wonder how to make the arm cannon and arm mounted repeating crossbow a reality?

So I finally decided to make a druid for fun.
I love animal companion and I think they are a fun mechanic into the game, I also love familiars a lot. So I decided to make a druid that can have both.

Human druid (no archetype)
STR 10
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 18 (added my +2 there)
CHA 13

Traits: Reactionary, Transmuter
Starting feats: Evolved companion, Skill focus: knowledge nature.
Level 3 feat: Eldritch heritage: arcane bond -> familiar
Level 5 feat: Evolved companion
level 7 feat: Evolved familiar
level 9 feat: ?

I was thinking of taking a "Figment" archetype for the familiar,
or maybe a "Mauler" archetype.

My main strategy would be more of buffing my companion and my familiar with spells then summoning nature ally to help in combat.
At later level I can also use beast shape and vermin shape to transform my familiar into a better combatant.

I would like feedback on that current build and help to select what kind of familiar and animal companion to choose. Also if possible, I would like to know what feat choice would be judicious with my current idea and would have a good synergy with the build.

Thank you guys!

Depend on what you want!

For ranged combat ->
Here is a paladin with oath of vengeance:

Stats after racial modifiers (human):
STR: 18
DEX: 18
CON: 10
INT: 7
WIS: 10
CHA: 18

Traits: Reactionary, Birthmark

Skills: Everything in perception and with that extra point for being human I would put it in use magic devices or any other social skill you might be using the most as a player (intimidate fit with oath of vengeance concept).

Feat progression:
Level 1 - Point blank shot and precise shot
level 3 - Rapid shot
level 5 - Deadly aim
level 7 - Manyshot
level 9 - Weapon focus: Long bow
level 11 -Improved precise shot

Gun for an adaptive Composite longbow.
Bracers of archery.
Boots of haste.
scarab of golem bane (one of the only non evil thing you will have a hard time to kill because of DR)

strategy: smite stuff and kill them with your bow, you are really good at it.

With that kind of stat array it's hard to NOT do anything overpowered.

Will think of something more outside the box tonight... have fun pondering!

Yeah with low stats like that synthesis summoner is not a bad idea!

But really with that kind of GM I think you will die really quick if you give him one target. Go Master Summoner, you will practically be a one man army.
Your GM get to enjoy killing the myriad of creature you summon, you get to live.

Comprehend Languages -> always useful, be it ancient texts, coded messages or listening in on that monster that only speak an old forgotten language.

Saving Finale -> immediate action to re-roll a saving throw, will depend if you actually will use your performance with that 1 bard level you are taking.

Silent Image -> This spell saved me and my friend too many times to count, perfect to make a wall between you and the enemy or hiding a door.

Vanish -> Once again depend on what you are building with the rest of your non-bard level but this spell is great to move around in combat undetected, get in flanking position or simply escape.

Feather Step -> This really depend on your GM and party, but I love this spell especially if you ever have to fight in snow or in a swamp!

Being a tank is a strange concept in pathfinder, it's more being able to stand in the way of your enemies and forcing them to not attack you allies.

You main role would be to block the way of any upcoming enemy going for your allies and if possible provide cover for ranged attack. 50% of your tanking will come from tactical awareness at the table knowing where to move and stand with your character. The main issue is that full plate and most heavy armor will slow you down, so you need a class that can:

A) Move alot and fast
B) Can stop enemies from coming in a area
C) Provide cover if possible from ranged attacks
D) Can survive a long time in a fight

Cleric with the Travel domain and the Weather domain is wonderful for that.
Travel domain let you move fast even in medium and heavy armor, weather domain can debuff most enemies and give them a -2 to attack rolls. You get also access to some of the best spell to shut down completely ranged attackers: Obscuring mist and fog cloud. Grab a good 2 handed weapon with reach like a long spear and force people to back away from your ranged and squishy teammate while providing flanking to your other front liners. You can also move + channel energy and still be of use.

The other less versatile but still very good option would be in my opinion would be a lore warden fighter. A build with good STR and DEX equiped with a Horsechopper or any other reach weapon with the trip special ability. Invest in feats like: improved tripping, weapon focus (the weapon you are tripping with), combat reflexes. Already at level 2 you should be able to trip most people trying to approach your teamates. You should take tiefling as a race with the Qlippoth-Spawn Heritage and the Prehensile Tail alternate racial feature. Buy a lot of oils of obscuring mist and use your tail to grab them as a swift action in combat and then next turn chuck them away to create cover to your teammates.

Could be fun to have a easy to go flanking partner if you play a rogue or ninja. An inquisitor could use this to use "solo tactics". If somehow you get access to "Improved Familiar" there is a nice selection of familiar one might have such as the fairy dragon. A druid could use one and have one hell of a menagerie combined with his natural companion.

Familiar grant awesome bonuses (Compsognathus +4 to initiative anyone?), can carry object around such as your potions and scrolls. Familiar can also carry message, scout and sometime use spell like abilities.There is also a definitive "cool" factor to having a familiar.

Fastest way I know is either one level dip in a class that give a familiar, I must say that I do not advise to do this. The best way in my opinion is this:
You can arrange yourself to have 13 in Charisma, take skill focus (any knowledge you want) and then get the feat Eldritch Heritage at level 3, select the arcane bloodline bond and take a familiar.

I love drinking, no seriously I dedicated large sum of copper and time drinking the best ales the world has to offer.
I have tasted the best Eleven wines and the worst Gnomish brandy.
My passion is brewing the best beer and I hope one day to open my own tavern.

Years of drinking in various establishment thought me some of the funniest stories man can know! Over the years I started this little one man show to get coins to live by. Sadly knowing funny stories and telling them is two completely different skill sets!

I have hanged up with a lot of people actually. Powerful magicians! Athletic warriors! Courageous knights! Learned a lot from them too... like how to wield a sword and to cast a bit of magic and I must say I am kind of good at both of them! Now onward for some hard earned coins, my tavern will not buy itself!

-Unknown half drunk magus charging into melee

Not really usefull the way I see it.
"Burning arc", "snowball & "frigid touch" are way better choices!

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I'm considering options for playing a caster who specializes in combat. Doesn't necessarily have to be a Wizard, but I do prefer arcane casters.

Basically what's the best build to be generally badass as a caster in combat? I know it's a broad question, but that's intentional. Maybe post some of your builds or build advice.

I prefer something that scales well and is effective at the key levels (5, 10, 15, 18).

Thoughts, tips, tricks, considerations?

"Smart bad ass" divination wizard focused on evocation spells.,, until level 8 ish at what point that person will become the ultimate badass

Go human grab these Traits ->
Magical knack (why you ask because surprise in a few levels)
Reactionary (synergise so well with your magic school)
Skill wise max out use magic device and perception and spellcraft.
the res put point where ever. Chose the arcane bond of your choice (in this specific case I would go with the item.)

Stats wise you need to go:
STR: 15
DEX: 10
CON: 14
INT: 18 (+2 from human here)
WIS: 10
CHA: 8

Level 1 - Spell focus Evocation, Spell specialization: Burning hands, Mage tattoo: Evocation. Enjoy your 4d4 Flamethrower at level 1, should pretty much destroy all goblin and usual encounter at level 1.

level 3 - Pick Magical aptitude as a feat
(I know sounds weird but trust me)
Pick Burning arc as your specialized spell, you now pretty much one shot anything your CR and hurt a lot anything above your CR.

level 4 - Put a point in STR to get a 16

Level 5 - Pick greater spell focus evocation as a feat, switch your specialized spell to fireball and get the toppling spell meta-magic feat, You main combat strategy now is to start to fight (even if you are surprised) by tripping up to 4 creatures with magic missiles and then nuke them with fireball for about 8d6 and very high saving throws. Craft wand is not use-full yet but trust me it's coming up.

Level 6 - Pick your first level of your prestige class: Arcane Savant (pathfinder Savant), still increase your caster level by one thanks to magical knack. You now can use pretty much any wands and most scrolls (you can take 10 on most use magic device checks), bravo sounds stupid but once you take a peek at the cleric spell list this is where your tales of badassdom are beginning.

Level 7 - Pick a second level of Arcane savant and start stealing spells from any caster you wish, I vote to go grab some cleric evocation spells or really powerful paladin/ranger/bloodrager/druid buff spells.

Level 8 - From there the insanity start, pick a level of Urban barbarian. Yup Urban barbarian. BTW you still gain a caster level go figure. Also change your Arcane bond, your new Arcane bond is a now a scimitar.

Level 9 to 17 continue to get urban barbarian levels, you can rage and cast spells and act in any surprise rounds, you can cast level 3 spells.
Make sure to pick the whole beast totem line of rage powers. Go
you don't really care that much about getting new spells because your use magic device is so high you can cast most scrolls using your casting stats. Get items that boost your STR and CON but also your INT. Get scrolls of monstrous physique or other incredible poly morph spells. Get scrolls of fly or overland flight and charge/pounces people mid air. Yeah don't forget to pick power attack along the way. Pick any rage power you like otherwise, you might want to skip superstition however. Super important to grab Intensified spell meta-magic and a spell storing weapon enchantment.
Put 10d6 worth of shocking grasp in your weapon as a little hello bonus for that first fool you strike. Also super important, in your off hand get a rod of quicken magic.

level 18 to 20
Pick all of these level as arcane savant level.
Get any spells you wish (buff spells could be nice) from any spell list you like.

You should be able level 20 be able to do the following:
-Rage and still be able to use magic
-Have close to + 30 in use magic device at all time
-Cast level 5 spells
-you should have around 14 BAB
-Rage powers (POUNCE!!!!)
-Cannot be taken by surprise and can always act in surprise rounds
-Access to a wide selection of some of the best buff spells in the system
-With a rod of quicken buffing become incredibly easy while still fighting (go invisible after pouncing for instance)
-Fight in melee like a MAN and pull it off well.
-Can still nuke people with a wide array of spells and extremely hard to beat saving throws.

I know it's long winded but it's my current vision of the bad ass arcane master murder machine(tm) still a work in progress but I really think it get the best of all worlds.

I would give a lot of leeway for player ingenuity, use of pulleys or even a well placed grease spell would lower the DC significantly for the STR check.

Well first I think that pure fighter is not the way to go.
Urban barbarian might be more like it.
Very often in the manga guts face many opponents and I think that thematically the crowd control ability would fit well.
But I would not just take urban barbarian levels, I would get at least one level of Titan Fighter too to get that large two handed weapon.

20 point buy:
STR: 20 (used the +2 from human here and +1 from level 4)
DEX: 14 (used the +1 from level 8)
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 7

level progression would look a bit like this until level 12:
Titan Fighter 1 - Combat Expertise + Dodge
Titan Fighter 2 - Mobility
Urban Barbarian 1 - Spring attack
Urban Barbarian 2 - Rage power beast totem lesser
Urban Barbarian 3 - Whirlwind attack
Urban Barbarian 4 - Rage power beast totem
Urban Barbarian 5 - Power attack
Urban Barbarian 6 - Rage power: Superstition (Ex)
Urban Barbarian 7 - Lunge
Urban Barbarian 8 - Rage power: Boasting Taunt (Ex)
Urban Barbarian 9 - furious focus
Urban Barbarian 10 - Rage power: greater beast totem pounce

Item buying strategy:
-Get a large 2 handed sword and enchant it the best you can (courageous would be nice)
-Get a nice armor like the agile breastplate and enchant it.
-Definitely need boots of haste or anything to increase movement speed to capitalize on spring attack.
-Definitely need items to boost STR and CON
-Cloak of resistance is a must
-Potions of lesser Restoration remove the fatigued condition
-Get an adaptive composite longbow +1

Overall strategy in combat:
Level 1 to 4 -> Charge in and tank while swinging a large great sword around.
Level 5 to 9 -> Charge in and try to get surrounded as much as possible, whirlwind attack.
level 10 to 11 -> Charge in lunge and whirlwind attack using lunge and power attack.
level 12 -> pounce in, whirlwind attack -> bathe in blood

By far this is not the best build but I think it fit with the theme of Guts, being surrounded by overwhelming odds and turning that 10 on one fight into a massacre, you get a lot of bonuses to intimidate and attack rolls from being surrounded. You have spring attack when facing a lone powerful adversary. The big problem is when fighting flying creatures but then again you should deal enough damage with your longbow to compensate for that.

Feel free to edit or contribute to that build, I love Guts he deserve an incredible build!

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% miss chance.
It's the best way to deal with most OP ranged characters.
Spell or natural effect that break line of sight are wonderful too.
Also look into the weather rules for weather in the game mastery guide.

Here some ideas:
-Rain and snow can give -4 to ranged attacks.
-Severe wind can actually blow away your tiny player and give a -4 to ranged attacks.
-Fog can give concealment (20% miss chance)
-Have monsters use cover and arrowslits
-Have monsters chug potions of blur (20% miss chance)
-Have monsters get the feat "dodge"
-Have monsters learn spells like or spell like abilities like mirror image
-Have monsters use illusion magic to create fake barriers (total concealment thus 50% miss chance for at least one attack)

I would allow it due to this part in the paladin smite ability:
"adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite".

The description of magic missile is pretty clear, you use multiple missile as you gain level 3,5,7 & 9. Scorching ray would work to with this tactic.

I know it's not necessarily classic paladin but hey that is why I play pathfinder at home, the rule have a goldmine of fun tricks like this that an ingenious player can try.

A lot of people will say it's cheesy, I say NAY! It's ingenious and however came up with the idea should be praised not bashed.
After all I myself made a wizard that specialized using toppling spell + magic missile, you should have seen the face of the GM when he understood I could trip attempt 10 creatures a turn with quicken magic.

I like your idea!

However may I suggest the Spell Emergency Force Sphere or maybe a Cube of Force?

My suggestions:
Silent image -> very versatile
Summon Minor Monster -> while being invisible from your vanishing trick you can summon a bunch of little critters to help you flank and optimize your sneak attack.
Mount -> summon a horse you can flank with, use for cover, use for travel. Always great and last a long time.
protection from evil -> really great vs mind control

Ellioti wrote:

for the cantrip I always like Ray of Frost as it provides some Ranged capability for sneak attack.

Shield is probably the best idea defensive-wise, Reduce Person (+2 Dex, +1 AC/attack) should be considered as well.
Long Arm opens options tactic-wise. Or True Strike if you plan to have any kind of combat maneuver as a back-up.

Ranged TOUCH AC attack with Ray of frost is wonderful combined with sneak attack!

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6000 years ago ancient and wise dwarves built a powerful graviton engine trying to create a machine to make the toughest of all metals. That Artefact mimic the certain planar proprieties to create powerful wave of gravity to forge some of the most wondrous weapons ever made. Their whole civilization go destroyed before they got a chance to turn it off.

The laws of physics are a bit wonky at the bottom of the pit the last 750 feet of the shaft, it effectively mimic certain planar propriety locally. Namely No gravity or maybe subjective directional gravity.

Have them hit pockets of floating water caused by the graviton engine, breaking their momentum but hurting like hell (2d6 non lethal damage per bubbles).

You now can work around that lore for a dungeon at the bottom of the pit they will have to go through before going up to the caverns that lead to the surface. Give them a few goodies made of experimental metal made by that engine for their trouble (masterwork metallic items). You can also make a few gravity based puzzles to solve before they can leave. I made a whole dungeon like that once and it worked kind of well!

Righty_ wrote:

Leiho -I think we agree on far more than we disagree.

This conversation took my mind off a very tough couple of days. The only reason I game is too get away from the weight of responsibility constantly on my neck.

I wonder at the change in outlook when a game is your career.

On a daily basis I balance games for about 2 million of daily active users, one change in a decimal point can cause an outrage from our user base at the company I work at, trust me they have their pitchfork ready. I put bread and butter on the table of my family doing that, balance and game mechanics; that is my livelihood.

I agree the rogue can be super cool, but if you take a step back out of your personal experience and look at the numbers, the current class as it is require a big revamp, more than the one of pathfinder unchained. The class is great in certain situations. That is the problem, versatility trumps peculiar cases when you look at the game on a grand scale. Having permanent bonuses is almost always better than having situational abilities.

For example, a GM that will not use traps at all in his or her campaign by default devalues the trap-finding skill of the rogue.Or again a GM that use monster with abilities that do not target your reflex save make evasion kind of pointless.

It's sad because in the last 4 years, I have been playing pathfinder nonstop (2 to 3 times a week, usually with other designers from work and people that are very knowledgeable about games in general).We did graphs and charts for the fun of it, just comparing the rogue to other classes and usefulness it lags behind as soon you get pass level 3-4 most classes totally eclipse the rogue with the exception of the Samurai. That said that exercise was done before unchained and trust me we will redo it soon, we did it with the unchained monk and we had about 23% improvement on it's previous score, that is a pretty good leap!

As a game designer I have the duty of looking at the overall picture and average user experience with the rogue. It's like a mechanic checking the performances of a car or a chef looking at the quality of a meal. The rogue as a lot of neat trick but they fail providing consistency and that is something that is problematic in this system where combat is super important, The rogue need more and bigger and flat bonuses all around. Take a moment and if you can read the Creating New Classes provided by Paizo in the Advanced class guide book. Take notice of how many time they cite the Rogue for unique and peculiar classes mechanics, look at how many archetypes bypass these rules (Written by PAIZO themselves). Now I know there is a lot of people working on these book and products and I know that in their meeting room there must have some heated debates on the content of these books, but still it's weird that they say stuff like: Sneak attack mechanics should be exclusive to the rogue, and then have something like the vivisectionist archetype for the alchemist!

The sad part is that I love the rogue, I want it to be relevant and usefull, but I feel that past a certain point in the natural progression of the game they lack the "pazzaz" of other classes.
Like sure you can do a super nice rogue if you pick and chose feats and items and dip classes left and right. It's actually not too bad to get 2 level of unchained rogue to get evasion for a lore warden fighter for instance. It's a hard to play and hard to master class contrary to a lot of other classes that are easy to play and hard to master.

I hope you can kind of see where I am coming from when I pick at the rogue, because honestly that class has been integrated into so many archetypes that at this point it does not feel unique anymore at all and that having more skills points does not feel like a super exclusive thing to have for a character.

I was really disappointed with the unchained version, They really fixed some stuff but I feel it was not enough. I am really waiting for Paizo to come out with some sort of errata or fix but I know it might not happen, some classes get left behind and it's part of an ever evolving game, it's the price to pay for ever growing content.

Righty_ wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
And catch off guard requires that they be unarmed (presumably by disarming them, and if they're wearing a gauntlet they're immune)
Catch Off-Guard has 99 problems but a gauntlet ain't one.
I went the route not for the mechanic, but rather the idea of a noble whacking the plebes with a cane. (Non lethal of course) If he duels, out comes the sword. I'd like to make the (sword cane housing) mithril or adamantine but I expect that's a bridge too far. Cane is wood to me and not a weapon.

You are right you win the rogue is awesome.

Nothing can compete versus a rogue.
After all you play one and you play it awesome and with style.

Have a good day.

Righty_ wrote:

I object to the premise that my rogue helps noone and I am selfishly playing him. Ask a pair of Andoran Inquisitors who couldn't bluff / orate their way out of a paper bag about a Tiefling's (Rogue / Ninja Gunslinger) translation from infernal to common of Les Miserabes (One Day More!) that floored the table and carried the day (as well as their faction mission) I could have been a bard, but I was a much more than effective Rogue.

Will you join in his crusade
Who will be strong and stand with him
Beyond tomorrow's assault is there a world you long to see
Then join in the fight that gives you the right to serve Zarta Dralneen!!!

Andoran Inquisitors all go WHAT!!
(Ooh so sorry about that, misconjugated he really says - To be free!)

Great RP skills and ability to use a bluff check or two!

Please chant and bluff your poems and songs to the red wyrm breathing hellfire upon us. While you do so the real heroes will be taking care of the problem. That is if you somehow get the save for frightful presence and not run away crying.

Level 1 to 3 sure you will be super great at sneaking around and being all cool and stuff and being like YEAH take that 2d6 sneak attack damage! LOOK AT THAT +12 to stealth! WOOT. At level 6 and up not so much.

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Does ninja benefit from Unchained? If not it's trash now.
Idk, invisiblity on.demand, smoke bombs, incorporal form, and climb and such are kinda nice...

All these are nice but situational.

Climb is cool but usually situation where people need to climb stuff, the whole party needs it.

Smoke bombs are great but there are pretty much a niche obscuring mist mist.

Honestly Vanishing Trick is awesome, invisibility as a swift action at level 2 is nothing to spit at, it loses usefulness in the long run however.

Flurry of Stars in my book is the more exclusive option that most classes will have a hard time replicate, combined with deadly aim, point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus shuriken and greater invisibility, this actually might be a nice trick, it eats a lot of ki and feats to transform it into something useful, but it's so much effort to do maybe 10 to 20 more damage than a baseline fighter doing a full attack with a bow and similar feats. Also it has less range. I am very sad that manyshot does only work with bows, Imagine throwing 6 to 7 shuriken in one round! Combined with greater invisibility and hitting maybe 5 attacks like that with full sneak attack dices could be a formidable way to do damage.

Rycaut wrote:

I don't think I would suggest a rogue as an archer (to be an effective archer takes a LOT of feats) - and a rogue in combat should be ALL about getting sneak attacks as often as possible. [...]

Well that person invested all her feats into archery no coming back on that. Fact is the Rogue and Ninja and whatever their freaking archetype are, fails to be baseline good. You need to dip in other classes, have a level of system mastery that is incredible and that a lot of newer players would not have to make them into something that is relatively useful compared to default class setups and kits.

Setting sneak attacks is complicated for a lot of players, I know on paper it sounds simple but when enemies start flying around it's more complicated than one might think.

See that is my problem, the rogue need a round or 2 to setup their position/stupid sneak attack restrictions. You know what most classes can do with ONE round? Then what you end up in melee with a character with low CMD, low HP, low AC, low saves. Maybe just maybe you will hit with one of these two daggers (personally 2 keen scimitar are more my style) and maybe you will manage to get 1d6+ 6 + 5d6 or if the mighty d20 be praised might hit twice for a grand total of 2d6 + 9 + 10d6. You spent 2 round setting that up my friend. Wait no that is not possible unless you are the effect of greater invisibility. So you need to flank, sound super cool on paper but once again that means you have to move around, not provoke any attack of opportunity.

While you are dancing around an opponent trying to get one or two sneak attack per round here is what is happening:
The Barbarian charged and dealt 2d6+24 something damage, wait until it get pounce! Better the druid charged and got pounce and had 3 attacks + rake at this point. The wizard can just cast 1 spell and completely destroy one or more opponent, the paladin can smite + charge and annihilate most bad guys. They also all get a second round after that one, you spent 2 move moving around trying to get the drop one ONE enemy and if you fail you better hope they don't hit you back with all their might or you are dead.

It's always the same argument, yeah but sneak attack should be used like X and Y. Well most of the time it's situational at best, if that fails you lost 2 to 3 turn trying to be cool and sneaky while the rest of your party did actual work and at worst you will just miss most of your attacks because of bad BAB, penalties from 2 weapon fighting combined with horrendous defenses, then the rest of the party has to rush to your rescue because you are in the negatives.

I know some people make the rogue work, but so far I have yet to see one in an actual pathfinder games. Will try to build a baseline useful unchained one again to make something maybe as strong as a core rulebook paladin.

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Kirth Gersen wrote:


I don't think focusing on combat alone is the way to go. Certainly the status effects in Unchained are fairly weak and could stand to be beefed up a bit -- but that said, it's the other stuff I worry about. The fact that skill unlocks still lack the breath, number, and power of spells that simply supersede skills altogether -- that's one aspect that, for me, screams for correction. If I play a rogue, I want to be BETTER at climbing walls and remaining hidden than the sorcerer, not trying to play catch-up with him/her. Aside from that, some unique abilities that reinforce his role in the game would be nice; I posted some (slightly) over-the-top suggestions HERE

I fully agree with your point.

I like your suggestions and I agree that mine are bit too focused on combat. Please do note that these where only a handful of things that came to my mind as I wrote this. I think we both understand how the Rogue every abilities in combat or other situations are lackluster and/or can be copied by most classes to a better effect.

Uber Rogue rant time

I am personally tired of warning new players to not go for the rogue and explain to them that a ranger is a sneaky if not more and also better in most situation. Only to have that new player pick the rogue/ninja/chained/unchained get to level 8-ish and then being like: How is it that I feel so useless? How come do I not get any kills?

I have the nightmare scenario going on right now, I have a Rogue AND a Ninja in a 6 man party. You would think a Ninja can rush in and pull some Naruto awesome assassin ninja moves right? No they cannot, not even with Ki. You would think a Rogue would be awesome and be able to kick butts once in a while in combat through guile and subterfuge? No they do not. I am not even optimized and my Wizard, the party Paladin, the party Barbarian and the party Druid of 90% of the job because Ninjas and Rogue are useless despite their best effort to do cool stuff. The last memorable kill from our so called Ninja was a noble that was sleeping, we are level 10.

We event gave up some of our resources to get them above average gear and they still have a hard time doing 1/10 of what the rest of the party do. The Rogue as a +1 Holy, Shock bow and still manage to maybe hit something once per 3 rounds and trust me by then they don't get a sneak attack. My fairy dragon familiar is a better scout than both of them. While smithing our tank paladin has more AC than both of their combined. He also has better reflex saves. The Barbarian while raging does more damage in one round average than if both the Rogue and the Ninja would to be critically hit. The Paladin beat any and all of their diplomacy and intimidate check, the has better perception check than both of them, the wizard as better knowledge check than both of them. I disarmed more traps with my wand of summon monster 2 than both of them combined, it's quicker and funnier.

They are a niche class made for people that play too much Assassin Creed, Deus Ex and Thief. Being good with skills is the niche one class: the expert. I will play a full campaign with an Adept before I ever play any rogue class or their variations ever again. They are a bad class and should be avoided, now there will be a bunch of people that will say: but I played a good rogue once upon a time in X/Y/Z situation! I say to them, you probably got help from your GM or the party had to carry you and your dream to be a sneaky awesome dude [insert fantasy trope roguish character] wannabe. Boosting their UMD and having them use a wand/scrolls/staffs is a better options then having them try their hand at combat and that is truly sad in a game where 80% of the published material is about fighting stuff. They are a class that depends on other classes to survive and strive, by all standards, they are a parasite in a party.

End of rant

Rogues are cool and fun in literature, not so much in pathfinder as they fail to emulate the awesomeness of their other media counter part to any degree. Efficient surpass the rule of cool as the system current configuration.

Rogue/Ninja is a trap class unchained or not.
I have yet in over 4 years of playing regularly to see one able to carry around their own weight. I have seen all sorts of rogue builds, super good with skills, combat focused, I even saw somebody play an amateur gunslinger rogue! I even foolishly brought an optimized one to the table , at level 6 the druid pet was better in combat than me hahaha! 4 month of research and preparation time to build a character that could not even compete with ONE class feature!

None of their class feature is exclusive if you are playing the chained version of the class. Most of the unchained rogue class features and bonuses can be replaced by Boots of the burglar and any other class ability to debilitate a target. In most cases throwing a tangle foot bag to a target is more debilitating to a target than the unchained rogue debilitating strike.

Honestly the Rogue need a true overhaul.
-Full BAB
-Gain the ability to deal sneak attack using a mechanic similar to vital strike. (Strike once for incredible damage)
-Gain something like Divine Grace based on INT at level 4.
-Full overhaul of the rogue talent, no more trap/bad options.
-Be able to use poison by default like the ninja.

This is the bare minimum I see to make to rogue kind of work.
Other classes get so many goodies and no one bat an eye at them.
Cleric have 3/4 BAB and get 9 spell levels, same for druids.
Paladin and ranger have 4 spell levels.

Like the rogue need to completely remove itself from it's 3.5 base to evolve, especially after the advance class guide release.

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Profession: god of gods

(Game designer)

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Kolyarut wrote:
Because a Dhampir is not normally small and Laiho Vanallo is suggesting the character be a small Dhampir.
Oh, ok. By "template" I had thought LV meant "make something that is to fey what a dhampir is to humans." Thanks for clarifying.

Sorry, I was tired when I wrote this post!

Thank you for the clarification.

Take the Dhampire a template and as your GM is it's ok for you to be a small creature. Forget about the wings.

I will assume you are talking about the half elf favored class bonus for the summoner class.

You gain 1/4 of a point every level, so at level 4,8,12,16 & 20 you will get ONE extra point.

Evolution point are extremely powerful, use them wisely!

Note: You posted in the wrong forum I think, next time for that type of question look for the advice forum.

Nigrescence wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Laiho Vanallo wrote:
Cast Alter Self on it and pass it off for your butler.
...or girlfriend.

Would be a very strange use of Empathic Link, and bound to get awkward later. But who am I to judge? A cat is fine too.


*walks away from blackbloodtroll slowly*

My wizard always walks around with a big cloak and mask, I have a second set of clothes and mask, I could technically use my familiar as a body double!

It's a fairy dragon so I guess it could mimic being a wizard hehehe.

I could even dress up as the squire of the wizard and be the real boss hiding in play sight!

Gol Zayvian wrote:

I gotta say, Does no one ever take the time to get into their character's head space anymore? When I play a character (even for those one of scenarios that sometimes occur where you never play the character again) I try my best to keep away from the idea that my character is simply a collection of numbers on a page. If you want a rewarding incarceration experience, take some time to ask yourself the following questions


It's a table top game with story element for me, if a GM feel that I should spend more than 30 minutes in a game doing nothing but ponder how my soul has been tormented by whatever grandiose idea came to his mind while watching game or throne or god know what trope. I usually leave the table. I have very little time to play this game, I am lucky to get a 4 hour session every month.

Fact is yes, bad stuff happen to characters.

Fact is no, players should not be sidelined for story sake.

Rule #1 is having fun, no GM is beyond that and if they think they are, I hope they enjoy playing alone.

Cast Alter Self on it and pass it off for your butler.

Ok, let's define martial in this context, they are: Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue/Ninja, Cavalier, Gunslingers, brawler and monks. Might be missing some hehehe. Martial are defined has classes with 0 spell casting abilities.

Why would you want a martial with 0 casting level in your party?

- Competent with a lot of weapons.
- Competent with a lot of armors.
- Mundane problem solving in some cases trump magic.
- Most of them have a bit more feats than full casters.
- Can operate relatively well with no magical gear at low level.
- Well built their ranged combat capability are usually better than caster.
- Overall they can be build with very good saves.
- Better HP curve (great meatshields!).
- Usually have more skills points than casters.
- Having diversity in a party allow better utilization of found magical objects.
- Some enemies are immune to currently available spells.
- You cannot prepare a spell expecting every possible situation, a sword and a bow are always useful to a degree.
- You need somebody with 16 STR to carry gear at low level.

- Usually cannot stand alone too long without magical support.
- Lack the incredible utility of higher level casters.
- Usually are powerless versus foes with incredible mobility.
- Will have a very hard time at mid/high level without the proper magic gear.
- Armor class becomes almost obsolete in the long run.
- Combat maneuvers become almost obsolete in the long run.
- Action economy is overall bad unless they are ranged or get pounce.
- Spells can relatively replace most of their usefulness in the long run.

Current conclusion:

First point.
Martial at low level (before 5) are a great addition to an adventuring party, their ability to take care of a lot of the pain magic user might suffer from their smaller spell selection, be it via combat or their skills. A caster is useless if he or she fall unconscious and this is very possible at early level usually due to low AC and crappier action economy. A bowman or a gunslingers at early level can keep as long they have arrows and bullets, even an optimized spell caster that deal 5d6 with burning hand at level 2 will run out of spells or encounter an enemy immune to fire every not and then.

This brings my second point.
Martial are a great fallback. Martial are there and relatively efficient at all time. The reason being that beneficial spell effect do no require any saving throws and offensive spell effect require one. There is always a possibility that your spell fails, or that the enemy/situation encountered is immune to magic. In that case you need martial to cover you and give you that second round. Martial are like insurance policy, never appreciated until you have an accident. Martial guarantee your usefulness at every turn by shielding you, dealing damage while battlefield control is being taken care with by you.

Third point.
Martial are resource efficient. Sure at early level gear is super expensive, but a lightly underequiped martial will still be able to accomplish it's main function if it's well built. Not only that but let's face it, random loot will not yield 100% useful gear for caster, a +3 great-sword is useless to most casters.

Gol Zayvian wrote:
It is the beginning of every Elder Scrolls game ever, just sayin...

A one player video game.

Every-time a GM pulled that he failed in my case and infuriated the players.
Because usually the capture process involve some sort of incredible turn of event, that is 100% railroaded. It take away agency of the players towards their characters and as a designer of games I cannot stand by that. I avoid to use dominate spells and charm persons spells on PCs, I find these so intrusive and violate a fundamental trust that my player give to me to craft a fun and awesome story involving them. Wanna write an adventure where you get to put everyone in their place and feel like god, write a book and spare people your power trips.

Now not saying that PC should never end up in a tough situation like a jail, but never, ever should their power of character agency be compromised, it's what make this game a game and keeps it dynamic.

Some wonderful storyteller killed my whole party a year ago to prove a point, most of player of the group never recovered. let's just say that cloudkill + getting your whole gear taken away was a very very very stupid move to do to a group that had had little experience with the system.

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4 things I can never bring to that peculiar game table:

1. Synthesis summoner -> I optimized the living crap out of it and I was outright told that having pounce at level 2 broke the whole campaign.
To be fair rolling 3 20 in a row and confirming 2 crits in one fight might have discouraged the GM who was very me vs you type of attitude.

2. Using the arcane savant (pathfinder savant) prestige class.
Being a wizard with Bestow grace of the champion, Heal and Resurrection kind of messed up all the religions ever in a campaign world.

3. Buying oils of invisibility, or using invisibility spells in general.
having a high level barbarian drinking one of these and pouncing the one of the main villains mid speech was the last straw.

Addendum to last point: Any scrolls or potions or spell or ability that allow to bypass anything wall/door/dungeon related. Also cannot use UMD ever, faking to be a paladin with my ranger to use a holy avenger was also "metagaming"

4. I do not have the right to ever play any character with any starting stat more than 16. Supposedly making an mutant brawler/abyssal bloodrager walking around at level 4 with about 32 STR was "too powerful", in fact that peculiar GM need to see my full build and item I might intent of crafting/getting my hands off before any new campaign.

In the game I run, I use this rule change:

-Sneak attack can now also be triggered on new conditions as long you are not affected with the same condition; Entangled, Frightened, Panicked, Dazed, Dazzled (only if the creature rely on primarily visual input to direct itself and fight), Deafened (only if the creature rely on primarily sound to direct itself and fight), Exhausted, Nauseated.

This make tanglefoot bags and other mundane item extremely useful.
Minor magic "Daze" is awesome too now. Instead of wasting a lot of turn getting in position for one sneak attack the rogues in my game focus on finding way to inflict these condition on enemies then going all out.

I am currently reworking most of the talents too, I find them very useless for the most part because they are all highly situation based and all require a lot of setup to use to their maximum effect.

Casual Viking wrote:

So, Knowledge is Power has given me an idea. A Combat Maneuver Wizard!

I'll go Wizard, Crab Familiar for +2 to grapple. Either Alteration for the stat boost or Earth for the to-hit bonus. Probably Alteration for the much, much better spell list.

I'm struggling with ways to get proficiency with mancatcher and a reach weapon for tripping. I also like the bolas (AFAICT, you use Str-based CMB to trip with those).

I think I'll stay straight Wizard, but if I have to dip, what's a good dip? I can't find any class or archetype to give me mancatcher proficiency.

"Toppling spell" wizard focusing on magic missiles

get combat expertise, improved trip and greater trip.
Use spell focus evocation and greater spell focus evocation.

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Typelouder wrote:

what are some non standard (mercenary company, shipping, tavern) business ideas for characters in game?

Some of the ideas I have already: A Loan office with steep interest rates, green house that specifically grows rare herbs and regents for Mage schools/alchemy, and a messenger pigeon between cities/towns.

Need some more outside the box ideas

Fake villains for hire.

Hire villain to terrorize your town!
"Vanquish" said villains.
Become the hero of your town!

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