You get all kinds of fun stuff, like fighters who pride themselves on crafting their own gear, sorcerers who can sing and dance, and sailing clerics. It really helps players flesh out believable back stories for their characters, too.
Like my sorcerer/monk gnome with 8 ranks in Profession: Scrimshander.
Seriously :)
Nice first level loot: ring of +20 to Profession (Sentient Item Tamer)
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I successfully used Profession (Lawyer) to trap the head of an order of paladins in a heavyly biased contract, when he wanted to hire us for a mission. Sure, all the things he wanted were there, as was the agreed price. But there were also things like a bonus for overtime, for excessive danger, fees for weapon and armor repair and general allowances.
The poor sod had no idea want he was getting into and failed nearly all checks to get out of it. The only one he made was Sense Motive, so he knew I wanted to rip him off, but he couldn't for the life of him figure out how and he was out of options. Which in turn gave us about five times the amount we were initially promised. And that is why I love Lawful types... :)
Good, good, Prof (Lawyer), St. Cuthbert had that maxed for a reason! As to replacing Prof with other skills, I will try it, but only for PC, npc's will still use it, I just want to see how that plays out. Lawyer, Knowledge (Local/Nobility), Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Linguistics. So yeah, Prof Lawyer could save you on a lot of skill points, but I still want to try it.
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Generally, I try to keep an eye on everyone's skills and make sure they get a chance to use each and every skill once per book in an AP if possible. It's not always possible, as you're really not going to get to use the Ride skill or Profession (sailor) while dungeon delving into an old Dwarven ruin, but I make the attempt all the same. For Profession skills, there are all sorts of possibilities that can come up. The character with Profession (midwife) might be able to help deliver a baby and thereby gain the trust and friendship of the village, bypassing the need for Diplomacy checks or completing quests. The character with Profession (chef) might be able to bake some delicious cookies that distract the guards so that the party's rogue gets a bonus to Stealth checks to sneak past and steal a needed item. It really boils down to whether you can be creative enough to offer opportunities to use the skills, and whether they can be creative enough to actually do so.
Really creative players don't need your help, just your permission, because they'll have taken the skill with all sorts of wacky hijinks in mind. (That, or for purely RP reasons and they don't care whether the skill ever actually gets used.)
I had a DM once who was a military fanboy and who let Profession (soldier) replace a whole bunch of skills. Not exactly RAW, but then nor is anything but letting characters make small amounts of money with the skill.
This is also RAW:
"You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession."
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My minotaur has profession (lamplighter) in service to Abadar. He believes that by constructing lamps and fences in remote, uncivilized places, civilization will come naturally. With Profession (lamplighter), he can reliably answer questions about the locations that he works in. He's planned for a city campaign, so if he ever needs to know where to go, even in the seediest of places, he'll know exactly how to get there.
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Craft is making tangible things.
Performance is doing intangible artistic things.
Profession is making a living at it.
Vincent van Gogh had a very high Craft (painting) skill but a low Profession (artist) skill.
Andy Warhol's Profession (artist) skill was clearly high... his skill at Craft (painting) was debatable.
I allow substitution of some skills with a Profession skill check when the subject matter is applicable. So, a character with Profession (jeweler) can substitute that skill check for an Appraise check when examining gems and jewelry (but not other treasure). Or a Profession (physician) check instead of a Heal check, but only when the PC is in a well-equipped hospital or doctor's office.
I don't allow this too broadly, and it's somewhat subjective.
Like one of the other posters above, I really try to give every PC a chance to use each of their skills at least once per level-- especially those skills chosen for background or role-playing reasons.
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I am pretty surprised that this thread has went so long without anyone mentioning that profession skills are important in Pathfinder Society play. I don't even play in PFS (yet) but they have an entire system for "day job" stuff based on the profession rules. Outside of this, Profession: Sailor and Profession: Soldier I am not aware of any other mechanical benefits that having profession skills even gives.
The power of a skill like profession lies mainly with the player's ability to think outside the box. The rules state clearly that
"You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher."
For example, i take skills like Profession (miner) as a second tier choice (things like Sense Motive and Perception occupy the first tier). With that one skill, you can do things like estimate depth, estimate tunnel stability, mark down potential ore veins for followers/constructs/hirelings to mine later, etc.
I see Profession (Gravedigger) had some use re. threadnecromancy ;)
The Glob, Profession (Miner)'s functions as you've described them can be performed by Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and either (Architecture) or (Geography) depending on whether it is artificial or natural. That is why this is a 'problem' as stated by the OP in the original post. Of course, there are some professions you could think of that wouldn't have such an overlap, like (Gambler) mentioned in the post above yours (unless you really, really stretch Knowledge (Local)!). That said, sometimes it feels more appropriate to give your character Profession rather than whatever else it could be....
On the first page someone mentioned giving out additional skillpoints for the express purpose of selecting Profession skills and the like. That post is some 2 years old, but that same idea has found its way into Unchained. I would suggest using it!
I see Profession (Gravedigger) had some use re. threadnecromancy ;)
The Glob, Profession (Miner)'s functions as you've described them can be performed by Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and either (Architecture) or (Geography) depending on whether it is artificial or natural. That is why this is a 'problem' as stated by the OP in the original post. Of course, there are some professions you could think of that wouldn't have such an overlap, like (Gambler) mentioned in the post above yours (unless you really, really stretch Knowledge (Local)!). That said, sometimes it feels more appropriate to give your character Profession rather than whatever else it could be....
On the first page someone mentioned giving out additional skillpoints for the express purpose of selecting Profession skills and the like. That post is some 2 years old, but that same idea has found its way into Unchained. I would suggest using it!
Using multiple knowledge skills vs 1 profession skill is not really a "problem". It is
i) cost effective if you have no desire to get multiple knowledge skillsii) covers areas that do not have a clear overlapping skill such as identifying ore from rock and type of ore.
To make it clearer, i see Knowledge as giving narrow but more comprehensive information (aka lower DC, possibly extra info) while Profession can do the work of multiple skills but with less specialization (aka higher DC)
Problem is definitely too big a word for this (whats less than a problem? An annoyance?).
Of course, Profession could potentially cover more ground by 'sampling' from multiple Knowledge skills at once. Conversely, a Knowledge skill covers more than just that 'sampling' Profession provides within its field. That said, in order for Profession to function the way, I think we all agree, it should does require your DM to cooperate by first creating a situation where it could apply and then allowing for it to do so. In its essence, mechanically, Profession doesn't stipulate what it can and cannot do beyond the 'salary' it provides (with a few exceptions here and there). Knowledge doesn't suffer this potential 'problem'. Admittedly, this argument is pretty thin...
Thin argument as it might be, its all moot if you just use the Background Skills system from PF Unchained, like I mentioned in my previous post. Just have your cake and eat it too!
There was a thread a while ago where the OP wanted to make a charioteer Packlord Druid (LINK). Handle Animal is a CHA based skill, whereas Profession: Driver is a WIS based skill.
Sometimes getting a skill that uses your better stat can be worth it. That's not going to help most classes, but Druids & Clerics are likely to want a higher WIS than INT or CHA.
Merchants fail because Pathfinder and DnD make a poor job of simulating economy. We get a flat price system where things can be sold for half price and fabricated for 1/2 (magic items), 1/3 (mundane, masterwork, alchemical, poisons) or 1/6 price (same, but with easy access to the main ingredient). This is OK if all you want to do is adventuring, but if taken verbatim, it makes trading impossible and crafting either marginally profitable or a cash cow (if fabricate can make masterwork items by paying just for basic ingredients).
The game's primary reason for being is after all to provide a springboard for heroic fantasy. The basic assumption is that you play this game to be Hercules, Conan, and Xena, not Ben Stein the banker, or James the shoemaker. Merchants are meant to be supporting cast, at best, not the main focus of the game.
If your complaint is that Pathfinder doesn't simulate a real world economy, that's an observation that dates all the way back to Gygax himself who related that this was an intended design feature of the game, that player character heroes would win tremendous amounts of loot, and burn through them just as quickly in order to be motivated to go on the next adventure. It was Dungeons and Dragons after all, not Papers and Paychecks.
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See, I just use Profession to make inappropriate jokes at the table. Why yes, my Lamashtan Cleric has ranks in Profession: Childcare.
That said, in order for Profession to function the way, I think we all agree, it should does require your DM to cooperate by first creating a situation where it could apply and then allowing for it to do so. In its essence, mechanically, Profession doesn't stipulate what it can and cannot do beyond the 'salary' it provides (with a few exceptions here and there).
That's the thing. It does not require the DM to specifically cater for said profession skill. It requires the player to actively find ways to use it.
The crux is the passage "You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher."
The example i used in Profession (mining) directly involves underground work. Since many dungeons are underground, the DM never has to cater for anything. The player instead must be aware enough to utilise the skill.
Is it better than having 3 knowledge skills? No, because it likely has a higher DC for the same question that a knowledge check could answer and does not have the breath of scope. However it is not a useless if players remember it was changed from 3.5 and start using the skill.
I've seen someone argue that Profession: Acting should subsume the functionality Bluff and Disguise.
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I've seen someone argue that Profession: Acting should subsume the functionality Bluff and Disguise.
It's called playing a Bard with Versatile Performance.
But you're using an example of a profession that easily comes up in most adventures....you even said so yourself. What about some of the more obscure professions that have been mentioned? It's really up to the DM; almost completely so. A player can be as inventive as they want on how to make their profession apply to a certain situation, to the point that they are maybe even grasping at straws, but it's up to the DM to allow it or not. A strict DM might insist that you use a Knowledge: Dungeoneering check and that you absolutely cannot use your Profession: Miner check. What about a DM that would allow it, but never has the party go into a cave? What about a player that has something like Profession: Husbandry? If the DM never has you come upon a farmer who needs assistance with a pregnant horse, you'll never get to use your skill, and so they were wasted skill points (beyond fleshing out your characters role/background).
Said strict DM will need to read the actual rule for profession which state "You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher."
If it is in the purview of mining, then the rules explicitly say you can answer it. I do not expect a player to use Professsion (miner) to answer a question on ocean currents. That would be very stupid.
If you never go into a cave (which by the way does not actually require a CAVE but any natural underground structure) then simply use the other things mining influences. Lump of gold is pyrite? River has gold for panning? That pit is actually an open land excavation?
Profession Husbandry? Hey DM, are those domesticated animals? Hey DM, are those animals sick? Hey DM, what sort of things do i need to help cure those animals? Hey DM, what's the worth of that animal? Hey DM, which of those animals is the best in hit points? Hey DM, can i domesticate that animal i have never seen before? Hey DM, what do i need to domesicate it? Hey DM, etc etc.
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Profession: Teacher, allows me to do all knowledge checks. But, due to him being only a humble public school teacher, he gets all successes half right, and all failures half wrong.
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A professional mason is more than a carpenter or bricklayer. They have been trained to work in groups, to follow orders, to complement others in their professions.
It's quite well known that Profession (free)mason involves all sorts of esoteric knowledges, perks, and conspiracies.
profession - pizza delivery driver would make a hell of a vigilante, or even a slayer. they'd get great favored terrain bonuses in the city, plus tracking as long as the target is a structure
im mostly in the camp that its up to the DM to decide how useful certain skills (including professions) should be but that pizza thing just popped into my head
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+1. I like that idea. Playing a merchant caravan trying to make ends meet and fighting off bandits on the road? Establishing a caravan empire? I'd play that in a heartbeat.If it is profitable in-fluff to move goods by ships and caravans, them the prices must vary. But then if they did, the PCs would just get some inter-dimensional storage and teleport spells and go piss off the merchant guilds everywhere instead of killing monsters.
I would play the hell out of this campaign under a good story-weaving DM. Just saying.
Not every world/party needs a big bad.
The boys are thirsty in Atlanta and there's beer in Texarkana....
Hey DM, are those domesticated animals? Hey DM, are those animals sick? Hey DM, what sort of things do i need to help cure those animals? Hey DM, what's the worth of that animal? Hey DM, which of those animals is the best in hit points? Hey DM, can i domesticate that animal i have never seen before? Hey DM, what do i need to domesicate it? Hey DM, etc etc.And now you've conviced me to NOT let my players use Profession skills.
Oh, no! A character using skills exactly as they're intended in order to gain a very small amount of information! Kill it with fire!
In my Pathfinderisation of the Star Wars d20 rules (RCR, not Saga), I made Profession a feat, which allowed characters to make Profession rolls on various other skills, such as Knowledge (bureaucracy) or Computer Use.
I love the Profession skill, it really adds so much character and specific knowledge based on what profession you do.
I think that 5e's background system handles professions better than having it as a skill.
Getting a little info - probably less often than a knowledge skill - is nice but not nice enough to make the skill value for the skill points spent. Unless you somehow have skill points to burn it's a trap.
Depends a lot on the player, the group, and the GM.
Profession (Sailor) and Profession (Soldier) are the only two Profession skills with any inherent, mechanical benefit, but I'd allow someone in my game with Profession (Librarian) to use their Profession skill in place of any Knowledge skill while doing research as long as a library with suitable research material was available.
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Unchained has expanded uses for craft and profession skills that gives tangible uses for all of them.
For instance:
Baker or cook: Prepare trail rations (takes 1 hour per day's worth of rations)
Miner: Ignore half hardness when attacking a stone or metal object
Stable master: Fit or remove barding in half the normal time
Butcher, shepherd, or tanner: Skin an animal and tan the hide
Butcher, cook, or shepherd: Slaughter and butcher an animal
As a DM I allow substitution of skills for specific uses, or even for general ones.
Knowledge (Engineering) and Disable Device are almost interchangeable in my games when it comes to opening locks or otherwise breaking into mechanisms in the game. (I had a puzzle/trap that was a complex gear system to traverse the dwarven mines which could use either skill) I would gladly allow Craft and Profession skills to be used like this, showing how real world experience and training translates to usefulness while adventuring. I also full endorse (and mandate) background skills for all my PCs.
Allowing the skills to be used effectively in this way inspires more role playing that is tied to the mechanics rather than divorcing them which in my experience only improves the game for everyone.
This makes me want to say that for my home games players will get an extra skill point per level that they can assign to any craft of proffession skill.I've tried that. It's a good house rule.
Profession: Shepherd could be pretty useful. Drive a herd of sheep ahead of you as you travel. When the Dire Crocodile attacks, it will swallow one of them instead of you.
I use pigherders more, I find it funnier. The idea of a filthy pig farmer becoming a mighty _whatever class he becomes_.
Fun.
Also, when you drive a herd of pigs into a red dragons den, you get bacon.
If Stefan the Stallion is their business, however, he's also my business. If they notice that there's something wrong with him and that he's getting slower than the other horses (because I made him sick): sure, I'll let them roll. But don't try to make my game be about your investment in an otherwise useless skill.
It's like that idiot Rogue in your party trying to pick people's pockets all the time, because he invested in Sleight of Hand.
I'm going to assume that all the self-referencing pronouns here were just for convenience, and not actually a statement about whose game you believe the game to be, because if my DM was that narcissistic, I doubt he'd have people staying at his table very long. It is, after all, supposed to be game.
Also, just so we're clear, aren't rogues, as a class, designed to pick pockets? They are, after all, thieves, and thieves pick pockets. It is, potentially, one of their major ways to "earn" money. I mean I get it if the party rogue is picking everyone's pockets, that would get annoying, but if they see an easy mark, and want to take a little easy loot, what's the problem with that?
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Use Unchained rules, things like background skills.
Otherwise you get PCs who are useless at anything other than slaughter, and not always great at that.
Examples: Paladin with 2 SP/level. Needs a point in Climb, Swim, Know (Nobility and Religion) in order to even function as a holy warrior. Prof: Soldier and Ride are needed too, and this is assuming he is the most naive champion ever and doesn't have a point in Perception.
This means a decently statted holy knight probably knows nothing about Prof: Soldier even though he is the most charismatic and zealous commander of his army.
MendedWall12: Not every rogue is a thief or has ranks in sleight of hand...
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I'm not sure where we are in this discussion as I didn't read through most of it, but wanted to add my two coppers.
My group has started using Background Skill rules from Unchained. It's great. You can pickup a craft, or profession, or whatever else you want without it damage truly useful skill points.
Sure you want to make your archer have craft(bows) to represent some self sufficiency, but you're not going to be making magic weapons ever. And you're really not trying to make money by crafting either. It's alright, a few ranks into it from background skills and you're good to go.
Same with Profession, you're a lawyer who ended up having to chase down someone out of legal obligation and ended up an adventurer.
What's more, we also started using the Social Combat Deck and that has made even more use out of Profession skills going beyond not being penalized for them with Background Skills to actually being moderately useful. Now Profession(Any) checks come up regularly. Even better, social challenges are no longer a single roll of the die by the bard to convince the king to do something. Now, the whole party is involved and everyone has to try. Not having social skills can penalize the party. No more just shutting up and standing in the corner. It's honestly one of the best things Paizo has given us, though I haven't had a chance to try out the social rules from Ultimate Intrigue yet.
MendedWall12: Not every rogue is a thief or has ranks in sleight of hand...
Right, but when they are and do, you'd expect them to want to get the most out of the expenditure of precious skill points, wouldn't you?
And my problem isn't that players do pick pockets. It's when they do it only because they put skill ranks in Sleight of Hand (I've seen this happen a few times).
I guess I'm a little confused here. Again, if a player used the precious resource of skill points in the Sleight of Hand skill, wouldn't you expect them to then want to get the most out of that expenditure, and actually do one of the most useful things that skill can do, pick pockets? I can't be mad at a player for putting skill points in Sleight of Hand, and then wanting to actually use the skill to their character's monetary advantage.
Side quests are a thing, or include a part of the game where you have to swipe some keys off a guard before breaking into a dungeon or something.
There's ways to incite better role playing than 'I am thief, I steal the things'.