Profession - a skill point graveyard

[Eridan]

A few days ago i had a discussion with one of my players. He created a new character with a good background story. As part of the background story his character learned profession shepherd but his character dont have any skill points in this skill. The player told me that he has skills in handle animal and knowledge nature. We discuessed alot and the player convices me that professions are useless (exception RP reasons)

Professions have two main benefits by RAW. You have an income per week and you can answers questions and teach others in your profession. Most professions can be replaced by some other skills that are more usefull at all.

architect -> knowledge engineering, craft
barrister -> knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy
clerk ->knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy
courtesan ->knowledge local, diplomacy, bluff, perform
driver -> handle animal
engineer -> knowledge engineering
farmer -> knowledge nature, handle animal
fisherman -> knowledge nature, survival
gambler -> Sleigt of hand, bluff, diplomacy
gardener -> knowledge nature
herbalist -> knowlege nature
innkeeper -> knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy
librarian -> knowledge local, knowledge in general
merchant ->knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy
midwife -> heal, knowledge nature
miner -> knowledge nature, knowledge geography
porter -> high STR
sailor -> Acrobatics, Climb, knowledge geography
scribe -> knowledge local, ability to read and write, scribe scroll
shepherd -> handle animal, knowledge nature
stable master -> handle animal, knowledge nature
soldier -> be a fighter?
trapper -> survival, trap class ceature
woodcutter -> knowledge nature, engineering, craft

cook, tanner, miller, brewer, butcher, baker -> craft

All my characters have a profession or a craft skill because it belongs to my characters and their job is not 'adventurer'. They learned something other in their early years until they start an adventurer life. But...
.. why should a player take a profession when he can use other skills that can simulate professions and have some other usefull benefits ?

[Cardinal Chunder]

You answered your own question...For role playing reasons.

[Antariuk]

I think the idea behind Profession is that you do not only have some kind of expert knowledge, but also know how to make a living from it - operating and maintaining a shop or vendor, talking to people and make business contacts, haggling for prices, getting new materials and ressources, that sort of thing.

And it makes sense too, since just because you are an expert in identifying plants, doesn't mean you know anything about proper gardening, or how to make it profitable. You can certainly argue that some sort of overlap exists and therefore skill synergy bonuses should be re-introduced to the game, but Profession really is more than just being good at something.

The problems most games (and gamers) seem to have comes from skill points being a valueable ressource, and since the majority of adventures assumes the heroes are on the road 80% of the time, it has little appeal to invest in something you can only use when you're in town. Combined with the difference in what dungeon loot nets your vs. what a good Profession check nets you, I think it's clear why it is probably the least used skill of them all.

[williamoak]

Profession (sailor) is essential for a sea adventure; nothing else can be used to guide/control a ship.

But otherwise they are iffy choices.

[Dekalinder]

Profession is for NPC purpose. Sometimes people forget that D&D is not all about PC, but also about world building.

[Nawtyit]

But how can I earn half my Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work?

[randomwalker]

Back in AD&D days, secondary skills were in addition to class skills.

With the transition to 3E, the vague profession (and craft) skills were included because not doing so would send the message that RP is less important than game mechanics.

Personally, i could easily houserule that certain background traits gave free profession skill points.

For one-shot intrigue campaigns, profession skills could also be used to find clues, infiltrate enemy cities etc. But that is extremely circumstantial.

[williamoak]

I tend to give extra skill points anyways. And I currently have a dwarven player that is using profession (baker) in conjunction with "master craftsman" to make magical dwarven battle bread...

[haruhiko88]

A majority of the time it is for rp reasons, until sailing comes up, or weekly income. Profession sailor is THE skill to have on the high seas as it incorporates rigging, sitting at the wheel, and general knowledge of the seas (not it's inhabitants or various features). Then there's me... I like making alchemical potions out of various ales my dwarven alchemists brew up. Ales designed to be turned into potions so the flavor doesn't go away, ah I love magical beer.

[Umbranus]

Antariuk wrote:

I think the idea behind Profession is that you do not only have some kind of expert knowledge, but also know how to make a living from it - operating and maintaining a shop or vendor, talking to people and make business contacts, haggling for prices, getting new materials and ressources, that sort of thing.

This.

And if your PCs background is being a shepherd all he needs is 1 rank in it.

[Mark Hoover]

Taking a look at the CRB I see that using a Craft skill you can manage untrained helpers for the purposes of creating the item(s) you're working on with the skill. However that is the only "social" aspect of the skill, with the intention being that a Craft skill is focused on the end result, the thing being crafted.

Profession on the other hand is specifically called out as the skill for earning a daily wage. Sure, other skills might be marketable and Perform has an earnings component per performance, but Profession is uniquely described as the "job" skill.

So I would argue that there is a "people skills" element to Profession. Sure, if I have the Heal skill I'd know enough about anatomy to pass as a midwife, but there's no guarantee of my bedside manner. My patients don't like me and there's no guarantee I get paid either. On the flipside with Profession: Midwife I would know a little about anything to do with the birthing process, including social skills like keeping the patient calm, what alchemical substances are ok for mom and baby, and how to perform an emergency "C" section. Could I provide healing benefits afterwards? No, that's the Heal skill, but I could probably suggest a length of time average for recovery.

The point is you use Profession specifically to make a living wage. While other skills might sub in, they lack the money-making component so you're not guaranteed of getting paid. You might be a world-renowned historian (Knowledge: History with 5 ranks) but unless you took Profession: Librarian or something then you're just a blowhard or a bookworm that people find standoffish - it would take additional skills such as Diplomacy or a high charisma to make the public pay you for your vaunted skills.

Now for me personally I've also subbed Diplomacy as the catch-all selling skill. If you've got Craft: Weaponsmith and Diplomacy you can take a masterwork spear you found in a dungeon, talk up its amazing workmanship, and try to haggle out a fair to better price. That's 2 skills used though. If you had just put a single rank into Profession: Merchant you could pull off the same effect and be guaranteed at least the opportunity of a decent daily wage in the process.

[Claxon]

randomwalker wrote:

Back in AD&D days, secondary skills were in addition to class skills.

With the transition to 3E, the vague profession (and craft) skills were included because not doing so would send the message that RP is less important than game mechanics.

Personally, i could easily houserule that certain background traits gave free profession skill points.

For one-shot intrigue campaigns, profession skills could also be used to find clues, infiltrate enemy cities etc. But that is extremely circumstantial.

This makes me want to say that for my home games players will get an extra skill point per level that they can assign to any craft of proffession skill. Except in a primarily sea-based campaign where Profession(Sailor) would require a normal skill point, as then it would be significantly beneficial where normally their value isn't very much. To me this would allow for more well rounded characters with a more believable background. Adventurers didn't just pop out of the womb as adventurers. They grew up, probably had some sort of job or learned a skill...and then decided, "Hey, I'm going to go fight monsters for a living!"

[Matthew Downie]

Claxon wrote:

This makes me want to say that for my home games players will get an extra skill point per level that they can assign to any craft of proffession skill.

I've tried that. It's a good house rule.

Profession: Shepherd could be pretty useful. Drive a herd of sheep ahead of you as you travel. When the Dire Crocodile attacks, it will swallow one of them instead of you.

[sunbeam]

You can easily house rule or ad hoc things when they come up.

Let's say a PC has 10 ranks in Profession:Sailor.

I'd have no qualms about letting him make Use Rope checks using that particular skill.

Guy has 10 ranks in Profession:Shepherd? He can use that for Survival checks.

But more and more I have no qualms about going off the reservation. I care less and less about RAW, and more about RAI. Or what I think should be intended.

[Marthkus]

Profession soldier is good for the mass combat rules in ultimate campaign.

[Majuba]

Eridan wrote:

Professions have two main benefits by RAW. You have an income per week and you can answers questions and teach others in your profession. Most professions can be replaced by some other skills that are more useful at all.

architect -> knowledge engineering, craft
barrister -> knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy

...

Actually... Professions provide a *more* efficient use of skill points, that just requires more role-play in their use. Just reverse your list above.

For instance, the librarian from The Mummy:
knowledge local, knowledge in general -> librarian

[Shaun]

I once played an urban ranger who had good WIS and not so good CHA. I wanted him to have a dog that would eventually become his animal companion and have him start with it being around, not have it magically appear at 4th level. Anyway, I gave him skills in Profession: dog trainer. With GM approval I used that to have him teach the dog tricks instead of handle animal, but the skill only applied to dogs, not animals in general.

I've also allowed profession: courtesan to be applied instead of diplomacy checks when appropriate. I've allowed profession: gambler to give a bonus to games of chance to win money. Profession: fisherman, herbalist or trapper could replace survival for foraging in the right location. Profession: shepherd or stable master could work as handle animal for farm animals in general. Profession: Engineer could replace knowledge: engineering in some instances. Profession: woodcutter could work as survival to navigate in forested areas.

I think the trick with profession is that it can be used to allow a class that doesn't have a skill on its class list to approximate some skills in a more limited fashion and still have it be a class skill, since it's on every class' skill list.

[Better_with_Bacon]

Shaun wrote:

I've also allowed profession: courtesan to be applied instead of diplomacy checks when appropriate.

If you have a legitimate profession that would apply I think it's a nice catch-all, or substitute for other skills that could be reasonably applied.

Profession: Guide (Use that instead of survival to avoid getting lost)

Very Respectfully,
--Bacon

[Bill Dunn]

Eridan wrote:

Professions have two main benefits by RAW. You have an income per week and you can answers questions and teach others in your profession. Most professions can be replaced by some other skills that are more usefull at all.

architect -> knowledge engineering, craft
barrister -> knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy
clerk ->knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy
courtesan ->knowledge local, diplomacy, bluff, perform
driver -> handle animal
engineer -> knowledge engineering
farmer -> knowledge nature, handle animal
fisherman -> knowledge nature, survival
gambler -> Sleigt of hand, bluff, diplomacy
gardener -> knowledge nature
herbalist -> knowlege nature
innkeeper -> knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy
librarian -> knowledge local, knowledge in general
merchant ->knowledge local, knowledge nobility, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy
midwife -> heal, knowledge nature
miner -> knowledge nature, knowledge geography
porter -> high STR
sailor -> Acrobatics, Climb, knowledge geography
scribe -> knowledge local, ability to read and write, scribe scroll
shepherd -> handle animal, knowledge nature
stable master -> handle animal, knowledge nature
soldier -> be a fighter?
trapper -> survival, trap class ceature
woodcutter -> knowledge nature, engineering, craft

cook, tanner, miller, brewer, butcher, baker -> craft

Notice that most of the professions you list are replaced by multiple skills? Admittedly, those skills would have broader application, but the profession skill would be quite useful for issues involving those skills as they relate to the profession itself. Exactly how useful that profession is, however, is highly campaign dependent. For example, Profession: Sailor is extremely useful if you're running a nautical campaign. If I were running a Roman Legions campaign, I'd make Profession: Soldier useful in fortifying the camp (which the Romans were highly skilled at), leading troops, and analyzing and managing the overall battlefield or likely battle terrain. In the Shackled City campaign I ran, I made sure that the half-ogre barbarian's short order cook profession (seriously) was useful - he ended up making quite an impression at the Flood Festival with his meat pies stand.

Professions are, generally, as useful as the GM and player make them. If neither of you can be bothered, then they aren't useful. You're simply not using that part of the game. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you want to put them on the character sheet (or want your players to do so), then make it worth everyone's while.

[Chris Donnangelo]

In my home games I tend to allow Profession check to be used in place of skills related to a specific job. For example:

Profession (jewler) could being used instead of Appraise for small gems and jewlery.
Profession (shepherd) could be used instead of Handle Animal for controlling herd animals and intimidating common predators of those animals.
Profession (gambler) could be used instead of Bluff, Sleight of Hand, or Intimidate when used on dice, cards, or roulette wheels.
Profession (librarian) would be able to give a bonus to Knowledge checks, based on what type of books are available.
Profession (sailor) could be used in place of craft(sails) with a penalty, or in place of Climb or Acrobatics checks on ships rigging.
I give PCs who put ranks in Profession (merchant) the potential to get better prices for items through haggling.

And so on... If the GM can give mechanical benefit to a 'dead skill' it gives it lots of roleplaying flavor, and I like rewarding that.

[Inlaa]

Profession: Soldier is very important in Ultimate Campaign for mass combat. It can turn someone with mediocre stats into a stellar, or at least above average, general.

[Mysterious Stranger]

For one thing just having the knowledge skill does not actually mean you can do anything related to the skill. It is all book learning not practical. Knowledge engineering for example may allow you to recognize a weak spot in a building or otherwise get information about a construction. What it does not do is allow you to draw up a set of plans for a building that can be used to actually construct the building. The herbalist not only knows which plants can be used for medical purpose, but can actually prepare them. Just having knowledge nature only allows you to recognize the plant and it use.

Like your list shows many of the professions cover multiple aspects. Having a single skill that allows you to do all the things a profession does without having to purchase multiple skills actually save you points. Fisherman for example could be substituted for both knowledge nature and survival but only when dealing with fish.

[Pupsocket]

Claxon wrote:

This makes me want to say that for my home games players will get an extra skill point per level that they can assign to any craft of proffession skill. To me this would allow for more well rounded characters with a more believable background. Adventurers didn't just pop out of the womb as adventurers. They grew up, probably had some sort of job or learned a skill...and then decided, "Hey, I'm going to go fight monsters for a living!"

Maybe their lack of marketable skills is what drove them to Adventureism in the first place?

[Gargs454]

randomwalker wrote:

Back in AD&D days, secondary skills were in addition to class skills.

With the transition to 3E, the vague profession (and craft) skills were included because not doing so would send the message that RP is less important than game mechanics.

Personally, i could easily houserule that certain background traits gave free profession skill points.

For one-shot intrigue campaigns, profession skills could also be used to find clues, infiltrate enemy cities etc. But that is extremely circumstantial.

Yeah, its kind of funny when you think about one of the bigger criticisms of 4ed was that there was no roleplaying in it (which I personally disagree with, but that's beside the point for this thread). One of the things people have pointed to in that argument is that the Rules don't do much to facilitate roleplaying. Personally, I don't think the rules in earlier editions did much of that either, unless you consider some of the broader skill choices that were there.

Back to the OP, personally I would disagree with the contention that Acrobatics, Climb and Geography can replace Profession Sailor. Sure, they can help you climb the rigging, keep from falling, and figure out just where in the sam heck you are, but they don't really teach you how to actually control the ship. Plus, you are still investing in three skills to replace one.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Saving skill points is a valid use of the profession skill. Take a Halfling farmer with an intelligence of 8 and wisdom of 12. If he spends one point on professional skill farmer he gets a +5 bonus. What does that get him? This should allow him to grow crops (knowledge nature), control farm animals (Handle animal), and probably treat sick animals (healer). He does not know anything about wild animals other than they eat his animals, he does not know anything about rare plants or using plants for medical purpose, and he does not know how to take care of sick people. Using your method he would need to spend 3 times as many skill points which he does not have, and the rolls would be a lot worse. A single point investment in knowledge nature gives him a +0 roll.

[Majuba]

*fast forwards 300 posts in this thread*

Latest Post, March 9th, 2:42 a.m. wrote:

The Profession skill is completely Over-Powered - my next character will have nothing but profession skills, essentially tripling his total skill points!!! Plus I'll use Profession (lion tamer) in place of my whip attack bonus!

;-)

[Claxon]

Pupsocket wrote:

Claxon wrote:

This makes me want to say that for my home games players will get an extra skill point per level that they can assign to any craft of proffession skill. To me this would allow for more well rounded characters with a more believable background. Adventurers didn't just pop out of the womb as adventurers. They grew up, probably had some sort of job or learned a skill...and then decided, "Hey, I'm going to go fight monsters for a living!"

Maybe their lack of marketable skills is what drove them to Adventureism in the first place?

It's not an invalid character concept, but I'll still offer them the extra skill point for craft or profession if they want it.

Maybe they will say they were just really bad at their job/trade and decided to hit the road to do something else. The possibilities are many.

[Inlaa]

Claxon wrote:

Pupsocket wrote:

Claxon wrote:

This makes me want to say that for my home games players will get an extra skill point per level that they can assign to any craft of proffession skill. To me this would allow for more well rounded characters with a more believable background. Adventurers didn't just pop out of the womb as adventurers. They grew up, probably had some sort of job or learned a skill...and then decided, "Hey, I'm going to go fight monsters for a living!"

Maybe their lack of marketable skills is what drove them to Adventureism in the first place?

It's not an invalid character concept, but I'll still offer them the extra skill point for craft or profession if they want it.

Maybe they will say they were just really bad at their job/trade and decided to hit the road to do something else. The possibilities are many.

Yeah, this is one houserule I've seen used a lot and I love it. It lets me make a character with a background if I want to. We're usually offered an alternative such as: "Or you can start with extra gold." Something small and useful.

I think one player at one game actually started with a +1 weapon. He was playing a young nobleman who'd never worked a day in his life. Everyone else picked skills.

[Fomsie]

My biggest problem with the craft and profession skills, are the stats assigned to them. The idea that Intelligence determines how well you perform some primarily physical or creativity based crafts, or Wisdom determining professions that should be social or even intellect based, has always rubbed at me.

Though I feel the same about Knowledge skills, as many would seem more fitting as Wisdom based lore than pure intellectual study... especially when it comes to Clerics and Knowledge: Religion!

[Ciaran Barnes]

Mostly RP, but it can do more with the right GM.

[Maklak]

I've went over lots of Pathfinder books and profession "sailor" comes up fairly often, but other than that professions aren't much use. Skill points are a very scarce resource and unless the GM is willing to give a few flavour skills for free, Profession skills just gimp characters.

On the plus side, Profession is a class skill, so you get +3 points to it. This means that with +1 wisdom modifier, you only need to spend one skill point to take 10 on DC 15 checks. So dipping a point or two in professions isn't horrible, just non-optimal. If you could use a Profession to substitute certain skills at -4 penalty, they would be more useful. Or at least give skill synergies.

* Sailor is for nautical campaign, as has been said.
* Soldier is marginaly useful in a larger-scale campaign. But it really should be Profession (military commander).
* Merchant gives a minor boost to economy in Kingmaker. Arguably and depending on GM, this might also be profitable or at least let you use your contacts to sell one item per month for 75% price (but this costed a feat in 3.5).

Here is a full list of professions I've compiled:

Spoiler:

alchemist
alienist (?)
animal breeder
archeologist
architect
artist
astronomer
augur (far-seer?)
baker
bartender (barrister) (barkeep) (barmaid)
beautician
beekeeping (farmer?)
beggar
boater
bookkeeper
brewer
butcher
caretaker
clerk
cobbler
cook +
courtesan (companion)
cultist
director
doctor
drover
engineer
farmer
fisherman
fortune-teller
gambler
gardener
gladiator
guard
guide
herbalist
hunter
innkeeper (tavern keeper)
investigator
jester
laborer
librarian
madam (aristocrat?)
magistrate
mathematician
medium
merchant
mercenary
midwife
miner
miller
mortician
navigator
negotiator
perfumer
poet
politician
river pilot
sailor +
scribe +
showman
siege engineer [use as craft]
smith
smuggler
shop owner
sketch artist (?)
soldier
soothsayer
stable hand (?)
stagehand
tanner
tailor
teacher (educator)
tinkerer
torturer
trapper
wainwright [use engineer or carpentry]
woodcutter (lumberjack)

[aboniks]

Alienist? That's awesome. Now I can psychoanalyze the Paladin when he falls.

[Gregory Connolly]

Until Profession (Merchant) lets me buy things at half price and sell them at full price I am going to consider this a skill that is gimped by becoming a PC. If the NPC Expert 1 or Commoner 1 can do this and there is no way to do this as a PC, including Miracle/Wish, then every merchant PC I make is going to be a miserable failure at his job.

[Maklak]

Merchants fail because Pathfinder and DnD make a poor job of simulating economy. We get a flat price system where things can be sold for half price and fabricated for 1/2 (magic items), 1/3 (mundane, masterwork, alchemical, poisons) or 1/6 price (same, but with easy access to the main ingredient). This is OK if all you want to do is adventuring, but if taken verbatim, it makes trading impossible and crafting either marginally profitable or a cash cow (if fabricate can make masterwork items by paying just for basic ingredients).

I actually looked for rules on price variation depending on time of year (important for food) and local resources (wood would be expensive on an island, but abundant in a forest, food would be more expensive in a city or mountains), but didn't find any. I even checked the Jade Regent and some old ADnD books and... nothing. If it is profitable in-fluff to move goods by ships and caravans, them the prices must vary. But then if they did, the PCs would just get some inter-dimensional storage and teleport spells and go piss off the merchant guilds everywhere instead of killing monsters.

[aboniks]

Maklak wrote:

If it is profitable in-fluff to move goods by ships and caravans, them the prices must vary. But then if they did, the PCs would just get some inter-dimensional storage and teleport spells and go piss off the merchant guilds everywhere instead of killing monsters.

I would play the hell out of this campaign under a good story-weaving DM. Just saying.

Not every world/party needs a big bad.

[Velcro Zipper]

Couple other things to throw out about Profession skills...

1. Profession is a class skill for every class (including all NPC classes) except Barbarian. Knowledge, Survival, Appraise and many other skills that could be substituted for Profession are not so widely distributed. That +3 class skill bonus can mean alot to the commoner who earns a living guiding adventurers around his town or the staff magus who hides his abilities by posing as a humble shepherd when he isn't adventuring.

2. Like Craft, the Profession skill also gives someone training in the various tools of their trade. Knowledge (nature) and Handle Animal might tell you when it's time to harvest your crops and how to train an ox to work, but Profession (farmer) is going to teach you how to hook up the plow and what all this crap is for.

[williamoak]

I think I'm going to keep that original list the OP made. It's quite comprehensive.

[Zhayne]

Craft, Perform and Profession (aka 'CRAPP') exist as a way to force PCs to waste skill points to meet prerequisites on things.

[jhpace1]

Because we (mostly) roleplay in a medieval-to-Renaissance society, it is my belief Profession equals being trained by someone in that Profession. You're being apprenticed to a master, or attend a trade school, or join a Guild. Like the mystery societies, guilds are very secretive about their higher-class skills and techniques. It can take years to get to the "inner circle". They can insist upon a monopoly from the king or local city council, and enforce compliance from others.

Now, other skills can equal talent and well-roundness in a Craft, or a trade (like animal husbandry using Handle Animal). But nothing beats a Professional. They are above the "cottage industry" of the ancient times. Professionals led us to the Industrial Revolution and the Guilded Age. A professional soldier is far more than a single fighter. A profession musician is more than just a good banjo player. A professional mason is more than a carpenter or bricklayer. They have been trained to work in groups, to follow orders, to complement others in their professions.

[Inlaa]

aboniks wrote:

Maklak wrote:

If it is profitable in-fluff to move goods by ships and caravans, them the prices must vary. But then if they did, the PCs would just get some inter-dimensional storage and teleport spells and go piss off the merchant guilds everywhere instead of killing monsters.

I would play the hell out of this campaign under a good story-weaving DM. Just saying.

Not every world/party needs a big bad.

+1. I like that idea. Playing a merchant caravan trying to make ends meet and fighting off bandits on the road? Establishing a caravan empire? I'd play that in a heartbeat.

[Zotpox]

Think of a profession skill as a group of 5 to 15 skills that are limited by the scope of that profession.

For example Profession (sailor) would alow you the use of rope use, navigation, wood working, fishing, drinking, gunnery, canvas working, and knowledge engineering (ships), knowledge (Weather).

[Duiker]

I've never had a character that didn't have maxed out skill points in either profession or craft, including characters only getting 2pts per level including bonuses. It's a fantastic addition to roleplay because it gives you a mechanical way to get a benefit for what your character is as a character.

[Mudfoot]

Profession: Soldier is useful for more than mass combat and digging latrines; it's also maintenance of armour and weapons, understanding how the military operates (and so where the guards will be when), knowledge of siege machinery and fortifications, cadging rations and equipment off the quartermaster, bluffing the officer of the watch, recognising regimental uniforms, acting like a soldier to blend in, estimating troop numbers based on campfires, giving orders to NPCs and a host of other things. There's a whole lot more there than hitting people with a sword.

The ranger IMC has Prof:Soldier through being a member of the militia, and it's been well worth the points. Of course, being a human ranger, he could spare a point or three.

[aboniks]

Mudfoot wrote:

Profession: Soldier is useful for more than mass combat and digging latrines; it's also maintenance of armour and weapons, understanding how the military operates (and so where the guards will be when), knowledge of siege machinery and fortifications, cadging rations and equipment off the quartermaster, bluffing the officer of the watch, recognising regimental uniforms, acting like a soldier to blend in, estimating troop numbers based on campfires, giving orders to NPCs and a host of other things. There's a whole lot more there than hitting people with a sword.

And that's the tricky bit with profession skills. Unless the DM and/or the player have a frame of reference to fit them into, they're only good for what's spelled out in the rules.

I'd let a player with profession: soldier make a check to stay awake during interminably long and deadly dull speeches. Or deal with bureaucrats. Or figure out how long ago a floor had been waxed. :)

[master_marshmallow]

There are several cases where a DM is encouraged to allow a profession or craft check in place of a knowledge or other check. Allowing a downtime system or having low wealth and low treasure games may in fact lead to players wanting to add profession ranks to their repertoire. Depends on the game and the DM's style.

[Liam Warner]

I rarely max out any profession skills but I do usually have at least a few points in one, craft and perform as well. Having a house rule that I get +1 skill per level to put in even one of those would be nice. My personal test WotR character has at least 1 rank in every craft and 12 in drawing, 5 in perform act, 17 in perform sing. 1 in perform strings, 2 in profession cook, merchant and sailor, 1 in fisherman and gambler, 3 in soldier. With an extra 20 points I could bump up merchant, soldier, sailor and cook (maybe appeal to put some in perform sing and craft drawing).

Every character I make generally has at least 1 profession at 1st level.

I agree trading can be fun I remember one Elric (or whatever that world system was called) where my character wasn't that good at fighting but was good at trading as we travelled around the world on our quests I'd buy stuff in every town I thought would make a profit and sell it at our destination. Doesn't need to be economics and spreadsheets but a bit more fluff for trading would be nice. Maybe opposed profession merchant checks (no retry) for every point of difference you get that X% is added or subtracted to the price (down to cost). Say you beat them by 20 you get 20% off or sell for an extra 20%, if they beat you by 20 you pay an extra 20% or sell for 80%? As said they'll never sell for less than cost or pay more than X of the town wealth value (or appropriate amount as determined by GM).

[Sadurian]

If my character is a crafter of any description then I take an appropriate Professional skill, as I do when the character has a concept appropriate to a profession. My most common ones are gambler, herbalist and merchant. Making pocket money in downtime is always nice.

[Maklak]

> I would play the hell out of this campaign under a good story-weaving DM. Just saying.
> Not every world/party needs a big bad.

You can try jade regent. It has rules for a caravan. Although those are pretty much "upgrade your wagons, buy enough food to get to the next town and some trade goods to sell at the next town". The trading is abstracted to buying units of trade goods and selling them elsewhere for a flat price.

> Maybe opposed profession merchant checks (no retry) for every point of
> difference you get that X% is added or subtracted to the price (down to cost).
> Say you beat them by 20 you get 20% off or sell for an extra 20%,
> if they beat you by 20 you pay an extra 20% or sell for 80%? As said
> they'll never sell for less than cost or pay more than X of the town
> wealth value (or appropriate amount as determined by GM).
A barter skill would be hard to balance in-crunch. You'd end up with the party face pumping it up and doing all the trading and no one else having it.

A more realistic economy system where prices depend on local supply and demand, distance from source of unique goods, if it is peace or war, how good the harvest was and other factors could get unwieldy pretty fast, but I'd still like some guidelines on how to do it.

[Gluttony]

I've seen a PC end an encounter with a red dragon through creative application of Profession (Dressmaker) in the past.

...Which is just an anecdote really, but it's a fun one.

[MattR1986]

All he wanted was to look pretty?