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I'm all for having Versatile Performance but for Professions.
Profession (sailor) is essential for a sea adventure; nothing else can be used to guide/control a ship.
Knowledge (Nature) can also be used.
Water Current: ... A current-driven ship such as a river barge with a crew of two or more creatures requires either a Profession (sailor) or Knowledge (nature) check for the driving check ...
Air Current: Air-current vehicles are rather diverse. They can be sailing ships, airships, land ships, or even gliders. A vehicle propelled by air with a crew of two or more creatures requires a Profession (sailor) or Knowledge (nature) check as its driving check...
OP, you bring up a good point. I have several ranks in profession soldier, and i considered using it in some large scale battle stuff, to give the troops some kind of bonus or something, mostly for background reasons though.
When my players fly the airship (just a thing i made up) I had them do a fly check-5. But later i decided they should use profession sky captain.
But i think i will try this, eliminating profession and just going with other skills, just to see how that plays out.
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+1. I like that idea. Playing a merchant caravan trying to make ends meet and fighting off bandits on the road? Establishing a caravan empire? I'd play that in a heartbeat.If it is profitable in-fluff to move goods by ships and caravans, them the prices must vary. But then if they did, the PCs would just get some inter-dimensional storage and teleport spells and go piss off the merchant guilds everywhere instead of killing monsters.
I would play the hell out of this campaign under a good story-weaving DM. Just saying.
Not every world/party needs a big bad.
I'd only play this if I got to name my cart and everyone knew I was a browncoat. A job's a job; now load up the boat and stay shiny.
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> I've seen a PC end an encounter with a red dragon through creative application of Profession (Dressmaker) in the past.
Lol, this actually worked?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kot8bT7HR6o
Profession: Stylist + generosity = artifact magic item an victory against sea serpents and demigods.
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Profession: Stylist + generosity = artifact magic item an victory against sea serpents and demigods.> I've seen a PC end an encounter with a red dragon through creative application of Profession (Dressmaker) in the past.
Lol, this actually worked?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kot8bT7HR6o
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Profession (Manure Technician): +10
Profession (Royal Steward): +10
Both.. same income per week = broken. Next.
My problem with both profession and crafting is the high level output. For crafting, making valuable stuff takes forever without fabricate, however epic your bonus is, and a 60 on a professsion roll for money gains your PC 30 gp a week. This is four times what a lvl 1 farmer can earn, which means that if you're an epic farmer, you can handle twice the area of land, and harvest a double amount of crops per season. In both cases, it's nothing compared to what a mid-level spell caster can generate, both in terms of items and food.
The arguments of the other aspects of profession are nice, though, and I like it for RP.
Profession (sailor) is essential for a sea adventure; nothing else can be used to guide/control a ship.Knowledge (Nature) can also be used.
** spoiler omitted **
Not every classes get Knowledge Nature as a class skill, not many classes/archetypes lack profession...
I see a few people in this thread saying that they might give out extra skill points so their characters can add them into a Profession without taking them from other skills.
I have to wonder why? My personal feeling is that after the first few levels, even supposedly difficult skill checks become easily rolled-against. I can't help but to feel that, with only a few exceptions, there are too many skill points floating around the classes, and not enough challenge against them. (Unless you're combining multiple environmental factors into every situation, which, let's face it, you can't always do.)
Given the way skill ranks in a class skill are applied, bonus-wise (which I still think was an improvement over 3.x), if you have a fairly rounded party, you basically have a guaranteed skill check for nearly every situation.
My players typically do not know what to do with all the skill points, and I appreciate the checks being more challenging, so when they put some into a profession, it not only pleases me from an RP and world-building standpoint, it also pleases the part of me that wants to challenge the players.
The same thing happens when I'm creating outsiders. I'm big on monster creation and advancement, and for some reason I tend to run outsider-heavy games. They are so skill-point heavy, sometimes you just do not know what to do with all the points. Can't always give those guys professions (not a lot of bakery or florist experience for a lord of hell), but at least the PCs can benefit (and benefit the game) from Profession ranks.
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I think they are a valuable way of enhancing your flavor, and can help you target multiple skills at once. For instance, Profession[Librarian] could be used for a fair portion of the monster knowledge skills if GM allows it.
Also, there are certain character concepts in some settings that it is really hard to portray your background. Which is why I know a person in PFS who has ranks in Profession[Terrorist].
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Merchants fail because Pathfinder and DnD make a poor job of simulating economy.
To be fair, Pathfinder was never intended as an economic simulator. It's first and last, a system for fantasy adventure gaming. It's meant to cover the operation of shops with about as much depth as you'd get in an episode of Hercules or Xena. Although to be fair it does get a little deeper than that.
Pathfinder was created to model a game called Dungeons and Dragons, not Shopkeepers and Receipt Slips.
This is why I don't waste time and energy statting out noncombatant NPCs.
I've seen a PC end an encounter with a red dragon through creative application of Profession (Dressmaker) in the past.
...Which is just an anecdote really, but it's a fun one.
Isn't that what the game is, ultimately, all about?
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every moment I spend talking to other players instead of doing damage, my DPR goes down
if it goes down too far I will lose my raid position and be left out of Eyes of the Ten :(
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Details, please! Please?I've seen a PC end an encounter with a red dragon through creative application of Profession (Dressmaker) in the past.
...Which is just an anecdote really, but it's a fun one.
The PC was, obviously, a dressmaker in their spare time, as well as an occasional adventuring cleric of a goddess of beauty when her more adventuring-inclined friends needed a divine caster (such as during the campaign). She had used her profession skill over time to work her way up from being an apprentice to eventually owning her own boutique.
Well one day between dungeons, they decided it was time to take a trip from their hometown to the big city. They'd lost their rogue in the previous dungeon, and so the new PC was arranged to be a caravan guard who would travel with them on the way.
They encountered a large mountain in their path, and made the knowledge rolls to find that the path around was mildly dangerous, though nothing they couldn't handle (i.e. random-encounter territory). New rogue instead chose to pull out his maps and make knowledge checks and found an obscure shortcut tunnel going through the mountain, with the catch that a dragon was rumoured to lair there. Other PCs wisely determined that they couldn't deal with that (it was pretty clearly just foreshadowing of the dragon's existence for later), but the new guy latched on to the fact that it was a rumour and decided to waltz right through.
Of course there was a dragon in there, but he was a rather cordial fellow and initially just demanded that they get out. Cleric pulled off a masterful display of ego-stroking and the dragon eventually decided that fine, he'd let them use his shortcut just this once because she'd so eloquently praised him.
Their walk through the shortcut led the past the dragon's horde. Of course the new rogue tried to steal something, and of course he got caught. Dragon fire-breathed him to death on the spot.
The dragon is furious and orders the rest of the caravan back out the way they came, saying that because of what their ally did, they now have to pay him to use his tunnel, and they can't afford the exorbitant toll.
Once again the cleric manages to be awesome. Aside from diplomacy, most of her skill ranks were in Craft (Clothing) and Profession (Dressmaker), and she'd been excited about the trip to the big city because it was an opportunity to get influential people interested in her designs. She'd brought along her 'best work' for that purpose; a high-quality, expensive, natural-20-crafted gown, and convinced the dragon to accept it as payment with the promise that she would never make another like it, thus increasing its value as a collector's item and ensuring the dragon would have the only one like it in the world.
Thing is, her crafting of the nice dress alone wasn't enough to convince him, it was her detailed knowledge of the industry that really helped her 'sell' the dress to an angry dragon, and fully convince him that it was a collector's item worthy of a position in his horde, and valuable enough to accept as payment to let them pass.
Doing so hurt her business later on in the city (she had to craft a new dress with rolls that weren't as good, which ultimately proved to be nice, but of lower-quality than the 'best work' gown she'd given away), but her actions earned her tons of alignment-points as a good person. All-in-all, a series of stupid decisions from the rogue that resulted in a series of awesome moments for the cleric.
They later got a new rogue who wasn't so stupid.
Profession is not the same as knowledge. I am a pretty good engineer. I really could not even begin to function as an architect without a whole lot more training and/or experience.
Could I look at a bridge and give you a pretty decent estimate on the weak point to make it collapse? Yes.
But that doesn't mean I can talk a customer into buying my design, draw up construction plans, oversee work crews, meet local code, know what permits are needed, etc...
If your character background is "He has been an architect before X happened to make him an adventurer." Then he should have at least a rank in profession architect.
This is just my personal opinion. There is some overlap, but not complete. If you are using knowledge checks to simulate a profession of craft check, I would likely allow it to work, but the DC would be higher.
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Well I made 10,000 gp into 18,000 gp with profession merchant. All it took was:
1) Fail the save verses prismatic spary
2) Get plane shifted to the Seven Heaven plane.
3) Get Holy Worded back home (blinded and deafened).
4) Due to smart alec player off hand remark ended up 500 years in the
past.
5) Before getting put to sleep for 500 years in a safe place bought
religous icons with the 10K gold (which was all the loot the town
had given the party for clearing out some of the area).
6) Slept 500 years and woke up to hear the parties first question of
does he still have the money (feel the love)?
7) Sell the icons for a nice profit.
Profession (sailor) is essential for a sea adventure; nothing else can be used to guide/control a ship.Knowledge (Nature) can also be used.
** spoiler omitted **
Not every classes get Knowledge Nature as a class skill, not many classes/archetypes lack profession...
1. I honestly don't see how a +3 difference is going to significantly matter.
2. The traits Child of Nature (Gozreh), Devotee of the Green, Nature's Mimic Savage, and Savannah Child are all available to make it a class skill if you really need that +3.
IMC the relevant profession skill score is added to the primary skill being checked. So a carpenter would add their profession skill to craft (woodwork), appraise for wooden items etc
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The Original D&D book D&D Rules Cyclopedia, chapter 12, has lots of information on the setting up of strongholds, including income, titles, and rulership. 2nd Ed has the Stronghold Builder's Guide, which also has stronghold and income information.
As to the viability of Profession and Craft, that is up to how inventive you can get. As per the noted example of getting past a dragon, if you can convince the DM, you can work miracles. For making money, not so good.
/cevah
Profession Miner should include stuff from Knowledge Dungeoneering.
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Profession engineer is clearly the BEST SKILL EVER!
Profession engineer is clearly the BEST SKILL EVER!
Profession god/dess?
Profession engineer is clearly the BEST SKILL EVER!
Profession god/dess?
Well profession engineer is actually listed.
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The game could be only profession skills, changing which ability score one uses depending on the situation...
- Profession Adventurer.
- Profession Monster Hunter.
- Profession Tomb Raider.
- Profession MurderHobo.
- Profession...
A good GM can make any skill relevant. A Profession (innkeeper) check, for example, could be used to notice that the inn's ledger had a bunch of suspicious transactions near the end.
On the other hand, a player should not be surprised if profession (midwife) doesn't come up much during a dungeon crawl.
A good GM can make any skill relevant. A Profession (innkeeper) check, for example, could be used to notice that the inn's ledger had a bunch of suspicious transactions near the end.
On the other hand, a player should not be surprised if profession (midwife) doesn't come up much during a dungeon crawl.
"The monster is a pregnant female."
*PCs help her give birth, then kill her*
"Can we keep the babies?"
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I like the Profession skill, but I've seen it horribly misinterpreted and abused as well. A GM I played with years ago allowed one of the players to regularly circumvent most Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility and Local) and Sense Motive checks by using Profession (gigolo.) A few times he even used it in place of Intimidate to extort money from clients.
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More than a falling of the skill, I think this is a failing of how we pay. Personally, I'd say a refreshing shot of realism could be in order, and we could take a page from Shadowrun.
I'm that setting, the "adventuring party" are presumed to have long periods of downtime between runs. If people applied this to pathfinder or dnd, the guy who's working 9-5 for two months while the rest of the party just sits around and gets drunk in the tavern waiting for something to happen while their money trickles away... well guess who's getting that Vorpal sword first?
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Profession engineer is clearly the BEST SKILL EVER!
I am a "focused study" human myself, and that's the profession I took...
...well guess who's getting that Vorpal sword first?
Lewis Carrol
On a more serious note. I like when my players grab profession skills. I let them use them in place of other skills if it seems appropriate. I had a player that was an entymology student whose character I let take 'Profession: Entymologist'. I let him use the profession in place of a nature or dungeoneering roll to identify insects or weaknesses in monsters with instectoid anatomy.
It was mostly for RP flavor... but it was fun.
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...well guess who's getting that Vorpal sword first?Lewis Carrol
And that's where putting all those ranks in Profession (Author) pays off in the long run.
More than a falling of the skill, I think this is a failing of how we pay. Personally, I'd say a refreshing shot of realism could be in order, and we could take a page from Shadowrun.
I'm that setting, the "adventuring party" are presumed to have long periods of downtime between runs. If people applied this to pathfinder or dnd, the guy who's working 9-5 for two months while the rest of the party just sits around and gets drunk in the tavern waiting for something to happen while their money trickles away... well guess who's getting that Vorpal sword first?
*points to the Downtime rules in Ult.Campaign*
Your wish is granted.
Yep, I mostly just think that this is an underused system. Long periods of downtime between epic adventures makes sense, profession skills really shine when you incorporate downtime into the setting, without it, you've got to houserule uses for them (which I still think are cool) or they're solely for RP purpose and while I heartily approve of players RPing, I don't see any reason that players should have to suffer mechanically to do so.
So yes, houserules are a great thing for this, but in addition, I think that just adding in downtime to games really helps Craft and Profession skills become far more useful than they are otherwise, AND it helps roleplay, win-win all around.
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We discuessed alot and the player convices me that professions are useless
That's why I give each character one free skill rank per level that must be allocated to a craft, perform, or profession skill.
Sure, this gives alchemists and bards a little boost, but when is the last time your game was unbalanced by an alchemist or bard with too many skill points? :)
You'd be surprised what people come up with when they don't have to choose between perception and craft, between a potentially life-saving point in swim or a point in some profession that might never, ever get rolled, a wasted point in perform or a point in use magic device that opens up a whole world of powerful options.
You get all kinds of fun stuff, like fighters who pride themselves on crafting their own gear, sorcerers who can sing and dance, and sailing clerics. It really helps players flesh out believable back stories for their characters, too.