DM RichD's Council Of Thieves Campaign

Game Master Briccone

You are mixing up countering/dispelling with how existing light/darkness effects interact with each other:

"Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness."

vs.

"Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.

"Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level."

I have no idea if clerical torches would be widely available, as I think the standard everburning torches are made by wizards. Might be worth the extra money, if they can be found.

You are mixing up countering/dispelling with how existing light/darkness effects interact with each other:

I have no idea if clerical torches would be widely available, as I think the standard everburning torches are made by wizards. Might be worth the extra money, if they can be found.

I realized that I don't like the darkness rules. They are badly-written holdovers from previous editions that just provoke confusion throughout the FAQs and are ignored in most games by eyeballing or being clipped out of the game due to relativity and ambiguity. Even the term '-brought into an area' is hazy: does it matter if the effect is cloaked? Does it matter which was cast first or which entered first? If I cloaked a [Darkness] and cast a [Light], and then uncloaked the darkness, which is 'brought in' the area of the other? Why provide a clause mentioning 'ambient light' when there is no time when the term is otherwise mentioned or interacted with? How come GMs have to basically resort to fiat when calculating light levels anyway?

Here's an idea. Yes, Raveen brings up a houserule again--that's a big surprise, but think on this. I'm using this for my own games.

Bright Light: Degree 5

Normal Light: Degree 4
Dim Light: Degree 3
Darkness: Degree 2
Deep Darkness: Degree 1
Humans see 4 upwards, suffering half penalties at 3 (dim light), and blindess at 2 downwards (darkness & Deeper Darkness), while See In Darkness allows for all vision.
Actually, why not let Dim Light actually allow one to see normally in dim light--instead of doubling effective light range?

Then [Darkness] lowers Light by 1 degree, Light (cantrip) increases it by 1 degree, but neither spells may move to levels 1 or 5 without being 3+ spell level, and spells of lower level cannot cancel out the effects of those of higher levels. Why center darkness on a touch at all instead of a point in space like [Silence] anyway? The Sun grants a flat +3 to all grades, and clouds/shadows inflict a 1-2 degree dip depending on density.

And there we have it. Ain't getting any simpler than this.

But back to RAW. To get this issue sealed in our game: here's an efficient proposition.

We slap a Heightened (to level 4) light spell on a stick/coin/brooch for about 330 gp 4 x 7 x 10 + 50 gp and stuff it in Naberius's pocket. Monday asks him (if we get a stick): 'Is that a Heightened Everburning Torch or are you just happy to see me?', and we all let the darkness/light rules fall back to oblivion when he flashes the Phial of Galadrial.
We can even heighten it to level 9, too (9 x 16 x 10 + 50), for 1490 gp. Widen it, too for 120 ft of bright light (if Daylight), if possible.

'Is that a Heightened Everburning Torch or are you just happy to see me?'

:D

I'm not terribly fond of the lighting rules either, though I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of them at this point. I'm running a campaign with a PC who is a shadowdancer, so the issue has been coming up a lot. We should totally get the Torch to End All Torches! The spell level 4th version should be enough. Would everyone be okay with pitching in a few coins to attack the darkness...?

Mera and Monday haven't okay'd the plan yet, so I'm witholding my in-character preparation post until then. Are we clear on whether we'll execute the operation at day or night?

The vast majority of this is going over Monday's head.

She just knows there's Tieflings in a temple.

Masked Conspirator wrote:

'Is that a Heightened Everburning Torch or are you just happy to see me?'

:D

I'm not terribly fond of the lighting rules either, though I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of them at this point. I'm running a campaign with a PC who is a shadowdancer, so the issue has been coming up a lot.

I just find it strange when Low Light Vision does not allow to actually see normally in low light levels--but doubles the effectiveness of existing light sources. What if the moon is the source of light? What doubles?

But regarding the torch: I'm ready to pay for it myself if it means putting that weight off my mind. I get the feeling that Bright Light would be a very valuable ally for the Children of Twilight.

The vast majority of this is going over Monday's head.

She just knows there's Tieflings in a temple.

At least she has succeeded in keeping Naberius in a perpetual state of discomfort throughout the last 24 in-game hours! :)

Are you in with the plan OOC, at least?

But regarding the torch: I'm ready to pay for it myself if it means putting that weight off my mind. I get the feeling that Bright Light would be a very valuable ally for the Children of Twilight.

I'll split the cost with you, unless someone else is ready chip in. A fancy brooch would be nice...

I'll split the cost with you, unless someone else is ready chip in. A fancy brooch would be nice...

Splitting the cost would be nice. Thanks for offering a hand.

I mean...hiring adventurers can be pretty expensive. Toppling governments isn't exactly the same thing as 'fight sewer-goblins'.

On the topic of finance: Did I bring up attacking a tax caravan as a possible idea, right? Or is that too ambitious?
To answer it, let's guess how much we're talking about here.

For reference, I'd give an estimate of around 14,000 to 55,000 gp per month* are Westcrown's agricultural/per-head/property taxes. Trade income may be 75% or even 200% more, so we're looking at 34,500 gp on average--perhaps about 70,000 or perhaps as high as 100,000 gp.

*Calculation is rough: general tax data from 18th century Madrid (Spain/Cheliax?), a percentage out of its maximum purchase limit, and a rough per-head tax(?) I got hazy number.

With the aforementioned amount of gold, the job will be too big for us to currently handle. It can wait some five+ levels, at least.

Monday Daud wrote:

The vast majority of this is going over Monday's head.

She just knows there's Tieflings in a temple.

At least she has succeeded in keeping Naberius in a perpetual state of discomfort throughout the last 24 in-game hours! :)

Are you in with the plan OOC, at least?

:3

Kinda-sorta.

RichD, just let me know how much to put into the spreadsheet for Naberius and Raveen purchases.

Also I am assuming that Raveen realizes that his ambush idea is not going to work based on your post so no time was spent on it? If so then we can proceed with the assault option on the Erastil church and still discuss that in our current meeting. If not then at least a day has passed perhaps more.

Splitting the cost would be nice. Thanks for offering a hand.

I'm actually sort of willing to bill Janiven on this. Until the CoT group secures some funding, we might have to throw this on her bill.

I mean...hiring adventurers can be pretty expensive. Toppling governments isn't exactly the same thing as 'fight sewer-goblins'.

No problem. Just tell me how much, and I'll add it to my expenditures while prepping.

Janiven probably hasn't got too much to spare. Otherwise she wouldn't have offered to 'pay' us in loot. :P

On the topic of finance: Did I bring up attacking a tax caravan as a possible idea, right? Or is that too ambitious?

With the aforementioned amount of gold, the job will be too big for us to currently handle. It can wait some five+ levels, at least.

That might have to be discussed in character once it comes up, but it sounds like something a group of revolutionaries might do. Probably in a few levels or so, yes.

RichD, just let me know how much to put into the spreadsheet for Naberius and Raveen purchases.

I'll give you the exact numbers myself, once we are ready to move on.

Also I am assuming that Raveen realizes that his ambush idea is not going to work based on your post so no time was spent on it? If so then we can proceed with the assault option on the Erastil church and still discuss that in our current meeting. If not then at least a day has passed perhaps more.

There is still a good chance it can be done. The fact that there seems to be no logic to the Bastard's strikes may mean just that. If they are acting opportunistically, any sufficiently unguarded target with a large enough payload should be enough. I suppose it is up to Raveen to decide whether he wants to take the risk, not knowing their plans.

The roll was good to create a store that would attract them IF you knew what they wanted next. Are they robbing places to get materials for a 'mission'? Are they being told to rob places from a higher (or lower ;) ) power? Are the robbing based on revenge? These are things unless you somehow infiltrated the Bastard's lair (physically or magically) or through interrogation, you could not know what their next target would be. If they were consistent in the businesses they hit, I would give it to you, but there seems to be too many variables known only to the Bastards.

I meant that the 24 raw Intelligence check was for anticipating their next target, the 28 Local was to find a shop/ambush site, and the 21 Survival was to push them to make it their next move.

Masked Conspirator wrote:

Splitting the cost would be nice. Thanks for offering a hand.

I'm actually sort of willing to bill Janiven on this. Until the CoT group secures some funding, we might have to throw this on her bill.

I mean...hiring adventurers can be pretty expensive. Toppling governments isn't exactly the same thing as 'fight sewer-goblins'.

No problem. Just tell me how much, and I'll add it to my expenditures while prepping.

Janiven probably hasn't got too much to spare. Otherwise she wouldn't have offered to 'pay' us in loot. :P

Good point. We will need to establish a treasury for our missions instead of paying from WBL. Probably of stolen (from the government) or donated goods (from members or 'concerned citizens').

Tal Bernard Mainz wrote:

Also I am assuming that Raveen realizes that his ambush idea is not going to work based on your post so no time was spent on it? If so then we can proceed with the assault option on the Erastil church and still discuss that in our current meeting. If not then at least a day has passed perhaps more.

There is still a good chance it can be done. The fact that there seems to be no logic to the Bastard's strikes may mean just that. If they are acting opportunistically, any sufficiently unguarded target with a large enough payload should be enough. I suppose it is up to Raveen to decide whether he wants to take the risk, not knowing their plans.

That is true. Just because Raveen couldn't anticipate their next strike doesn't mean he can't set up good bait. I have some very good rolls up there--shame to waste them.

That is fine with you giving the amounts Naberius. I just wasn't sure if Janiven was going to pitch in for you guys as well to change the cost.

On the topic of finance: Did I bring up attacking a tax caravan as a possible idea, right? Or is that too ambitious?

I am thinking that is not quite our intended goal. I mean creating problems and changes in Westcrown is one thing. Going against Cheliax and their wealth is way too much to consider right now. Even if we controlled all of Westcrown, had the populace behind us, had the financial backing of the merchant class, and the diplomatic efforts of the nobility, we would still have to pay the taxes or risk the full weight of the government coming down on us.

...and the 21 Survival was to push them to make it their next move.

Sorry if I'm being nitpicky, but wouldn't that be Diplomacy? Trying to spread rumours and such? Maybe you can get some of our NPC members to aid. I don't see how Survival could help in that endeavor.

Splitting the cost would be nice. Thanks for offering a hand.

So it would 115 gp split two ways, right?

That is fine with you giving the amounts Naberius. I just wasn't sure if Janiven was going to pitch in for you guys as well to change the cost.

Yeah, I guess I was just assuming she wouldn't. :P

I am thinking that is not quite our intended goal. I mean creating problems and changes in Westcrown is one thing. Going against Cheliax and their wealth is way too much to consider right now. Even if we controlled all of Westcrown, had the populace behind us, had the financial backing of the merchant class, and the diplomatic efforts of the nobility, we would still have to pay the taxes or risk the full weight of the government coming down on us.

Yeah, cutting the flow of gold from Westcrown to Egorian might attract some unwanted attention. At this point it would be unwise (and probably too hard anyways), but perhaps when we are better established.

Janiven will throw you 200gp now and another 100gp from anything you liberate from the Bastards.

I meant that the 24 raw Intelligence check was for anticipating their next target, the 28 Local was to find a shop/ambush site, and the 21 Survival was to push them to make it their next move.

24 raw Intelligence check-Even though it was a good roll, I don't think you would know. The way I see it, they have locked themselves up in an abandoned temple, you all have locked yourselves up in an abandoned temple. What would a Hellknight like Shanwen have to roll to know that YOUR next target is the Bastards and not a payroll caravan or a printing press. To me, its just too much of a stretch.

28 Local - You can find a good spot, but rather that will attract them or not is a different story, but your 'front' probably would turn a profit. :)

21 Survival: They seem to be operating under their own time table.

So it sounds like the planning is petering out. What is everyone planning on doing the rest of the night or the next day? Are you going to attack the Bastards tomorrow during the day or at night. Are you going to see if they take the bait and try to rob the store? (I am not nixing the idea, I'm just saying its not a certainty). Let me know and we will move things along.

Tuesday is with Amaya.

Monday plans on either entertaining Mera, Naberius, or Janiven.

I have Naberius' actions planned for the day following the meeting. I'll post those in Gameplay soon.

At this point, the success of the ambush seems to depend entirely on getting the word out there about the store. If Raveen (and our NPC friends, perhaps) spread rumours about this irresistible opportunity for an easy profit, they might just take the bait. I'm still willing to give it a try, if Raveen feels up to it. I mean, if they don't bite, we can just move on with the assault plan.

Naberius would prefer attacking at night.

Edit: I just noticed this is post number 666 of the discussion thread. Shame it wasn't about something a bit more... Hellish. :P

It sounds like Naberius and Raveen are still with the plan to try the ambush for tomorrow night and if that does not work then to assault the temple the following night. Tal will be at the ambush site to help but getting a night's rest as well and hopefully being awoken when needed. Lily will be at home. During the day Tal will be Mera's body guard providing she lets him know where she is going and when to be there. His only task will be to check on the armor to see if it is ready and to inquire as to the price of purchasing the smith from its current owner. (been reading the downtime rules lately and have a hankering to own my own business now.) Lily will be doing the usual house stuff during the day and worrying at night what Tal is doing.

As for tonight, is it too late to get home before dark? If not then Tal will take his leave and get a good night's sleep at home.

It's not only the ambush. I've posted several plans and goals, so each take your pick according to your character's strengths and preferences. Since things are much simpler, we can just pick one and get moving.

So it would 115 gp split two ways, right?

Quite. I think that Tal records wealth transactions after DM approval.

@Tal: Naberius spent 250 gp in total.

@DM RichD: How do we divide up the 200 gp we got from Janiven? Was that for something in particular, like Raveen's preparation's for the mission? I assume it was.

I'm ready to move on with the attack whenever everyone else is.

@DM RichD: How do we divide up the 200 gp we got from Janiven? Was that for something in particular, like Raveen's preparation's for the mission? I assume it was.

You are correct! It should just go to expenditures for the mission.

For ease then i will just take 100 off of each Naberius and Raveen's expenditures to put on the spreadsheet.

@GM:
Could I get any info in a PM?

@Fellow players:
I suppose we are all going along with this course of action. Let's hope this works.

It'll be fine! What could possibly go wrong? :P

Knock on wood...

@ Raveen: Is there a particular house you are going to D̶i̶e̶ investigate in first? You have the Chair-Carpenter, the Shoemaker, Tailor, and The Woodcarver.

I guess the wood-carver first. Since Raveen has the skill trained, he might divine something from the woodwork.
I don't want to delay the action--so if this is going to take more than a few posts, I'll just peek and take a quick survey so we might attack.

Hi All,

I have been asked about using Hero Points. I have played in and run games with hero points and I kinda like them. Heavens knows I used the 'Cheat Death' Hero points more than a few times. The only downside I've seen is some metagaming that takes place during 'Boss Fights' where PC's know after the fight they are going to make a level so they try to 'burn' at least one knowing they will replenish at the new level. Therefore if we do use Hero Points, I ask that you keep it's use in character.

So to put it to a vote, since this is all of your game: Hero Points-Yea or nay? Majority rules.

I don't have a problem with them.

Going nay here as we are already pretty stout with character builds and starting wealth.

I think it's pretty hard to avoid metagaming with hero points, since they are a wholly out of character system. Tal is right in that we're pretty well off as we are, so we definitely don't need them.

Other than that, I have no strong opinion on the matter.

I'd say a conservative yea.
If we're having Hero Points, it will help distance from metagaming if we only gained them based on story advancement or at a character's moment of glory (I.E. When Raveen's plans pay off spectacularly).

If you want, we might even have to use it (in-character) within a few days of gaining it, and not hoard them. Even better, we may even be required to use a Hero Point in service of the moment of glory above (Raveen's said hero point must be used in service of another plan--not against a boss enemy).

This 'temporary hero point' is beginning to sound like momentum: do something mundane and awesome, then gain the ability to do something even more awesome by gaining a boost.

And it is a good way to play something special theatrically--like sentry assassination. I'd be satisfied if that is how Raveen uses a hero point.

So that's one yea, one nay, and two mehs? We suck at democracy. :D

Perhaps Mera can settle the tie?

I like Hero Points personally. I play with them in both of the AP's I'm GMing and one of the others I'm playing in. I would have to agree with the party that we certainly are not in a position to need them as we are well configured, but that doesn't mean I don't want the ability to cheat death should it find me.

I vote yea.

I aLsO wOuLd PrEfEr NoT tO dIe AgAiN.

So that's 3 yeas, 1 nah, and 2 mehs. Hero Ponts win.

I aLsO wOuLd PrEfEr NoT tO dIe AgAiN.

Just think of what cool powers you might get in your second death!

I see that written in total ghost OoOoooOOO speak btw.

Hero Points it is then. You all have three for a max of three at all times. 1 hero point is gained at each level if your total hero point total is less than 3.

Now I can be even rougher. Did I mention the Bastards were Tieflings? They are actually Mature Red Dragons. ;)

So how many do we have then? Can Naberius get special 'reluctant hero points?' I feel like he won't be doing anything too 'heroic' anytime soon. Anytime he acts like a tremendous douche, I get a point, yes? :P

Now I can be even rougher. Did I mention the Bastards were Tieflings? They are actually Mature Red Dragons. ;)

Ah, DM. You're killing me.

I hope he isn't.

@Naberius: Good point. Maybe he gains a hero point whenever he scoffs at a teammate.

@ Naberius: You gain one at each level, but you can never have more than three and you start out with three. I personally like it for the cheat death which costs 2 points.

Me personally I like how it saves you the dilemma of what to do when your character dies. You spent hours creating this character and in character, he or she would not want to be brought back, it gives you an 'out'. I would like to use two hero points and when the rest of the party comes across me they find that the blade hit my amulet and stopped an inch from my heart, etc. Like I said, I used that 'out' many times instead of 'retiring' a character I really enjoyed playing.

@Raveen: Come inside and find out! :D

@Raveen: Considering that one usually makes a level after a Boss Fight or a series of encounters, I would say facing the foe would be heroic. After all, you could chose not to fight and do a simple profession and not be 'heroic'.

@Naberius: Good point. Maybe he gains a hero point whenever he scoffs at a teammate.

'Scoff points?' Constantly maxed out then. I'm okay with this.

@Naberius: You gain one at each level, but you can never have more than three and you start out with three. I personally like it for the cheat death which costs 2 points.

So are any of other ways of gaining points in use, from the PRD or otherwise?

Tuesday Daud wrote:

I aLsO wOuLd PrEfEr NoT tO dIe AgAiN.

Just think of what cool powers you might get in your second death!

I see that written in total ghost OoOoooOOO speak btw.

ThAnKs, ThAt'S wHaT i WaS gOiNg FoR :3

@Raveen: Considering that one usually makes a level after a Boss Fight or a series of encounters, I would say facing the foe would be heroic. After all, you could chose not to fight and do a simple profession and not be 'heroic'.

You're right. I meant that basing hero point acquisition via storytelling eliminates the metagaming side-effect of PCs storing hero points and using it before they level up (because they sort of know that they will).

So are any of other ways of gaining points in use, from the PRD or otherwise?

Character Story: GMs can award a hero point for the completion of a written character backstory. This reward encourages players to take an active roll in the history of the game. In addition, the GM can use this backstory to generate a pivotal moment for your character concerning his past. When this key event is resolved, the GM can reward another hero point. Alternatively, the GM might award a hero point for painting a miniature or drawing a character portrait in the likeness of your character, helping the rest of the group visualize your hero.

I guess I get the backstory point, and portrait points? xD Maybe I should go into the houses.

Sooo, are we waiting on someone? We need the GM to tell us more info once we get going, but I think it is safe to assume that we meet up beforehand and exchange last minute intelligence. I don't think Arael and Janiven ever told us how actively they are going to be involved in this mission, so that would be nice to know before we go storm the fort.

So are any of other ways of gaining points in use, from the PRD or otherwise?

Any confirmation on this issue, Mr. GM?

I suspect the GM is waiting on Mera (or vice versa) on the mayor's proclamation.
Also, Raveen gets a bag of sand to add to his inventory.

I just want to be sure there was nothing else any one wanted to do. If no one has anything else we can continue with you all arriving back at the hangout.

Janiven & Arael will take a couple of the 'helpers and take positions to keep the Bastards from escaping.

Okay, cool.

Naberius Belthrune wrote:

So are any of other ways of gaining points in use, from the PRD or otherwise?

Any confirmation on this issue, Mr. GM?

*cough*

Great. Raveen will report for duty at the evening.

Naberius Belthrune wrote:

So are any of other ways of gaining points in use, from the PRD or otherwise?
Any confirmation on this issue, Mr. GM?
*cough*

I would say No. I am a firm believer that everyone has a role to play in the campaign whether it is a combat-orientated role, diplomacy-orientated-role, etc. Just like I don't award individual XP, but levy XP to the group for all of the group's effort. Your hero point when making a level is everything that you heroes did to get to that point as a group.

Of course I can't argue with the section of the PRD where it suggests Hero Points can be awarded for a PC "Buying Pizza". I love me some Pizza! :D

Of course I can't argue with the section of the PRD where it suggests Hero Points can be awarded for a PC "Buying Pizza". I love me some Pizza! :D

Might as well take it to the last level.

If no one has anything else we can continue with you all arriving back at the hangout.

I suppose so.