Envy Runelords cannot deal damage with the elements nor the void.
If I have to defend myself and deal direct damage which spells can I actually use? How may spells have the mental trait/deal mental damage so that I might be able to deal some form of damage?
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Why not go to AoN and search for arcane spells with traits like: Force, Mental, and Sonic? That would give you your answer.
There are likely other traits that are not coming to mind for me at the moment, as well.
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Envy Runelords cannot deal damage with the elements nor the void.
If I have to defend myself and deal direct damage which spells can I actually use? How may spells have the mental trait/deal mental damage so that I might be able to deal some form of damage?
So, lets break this out, as there exists two aspects at play with this Anathema.
1) What counts as "the elements"? and 2) What spells can I cast?
1) Pathfinder 2e does not have an "Elemental" damage type. Damage types are defined here. The what we do have is "Energy" damage.
Elemental damage, then, we can reasonably say is probably just a subset of energy damage, but this does not actually appear anywhere in the rules. However, the limitation is not against dealing damage of a certain damage type, but, instead, dealing damage with those elements.
This means that, for instance, if we have a fire spell that does force damage, it would still hit the Anathema because it is the 'element' that is dealing the damage, not the damage type itself.
As of RoE, we have defined the elements as: Air, Earth, Fire, Metal, Water & Wood.
From this we can reasonably infer that if we are dealing damage with a spell which has any of these traits, it would trigger Anathema.
We then have a special crave out for explicitly void. Void is also a trait, just not one of the elemental ones above.
Now, with this, there is a potential problem. What about electricity? Electricity is a damage type, but not an elemental type. Many electricity dealing spells lack either the Air or Metal trait, while some others do. This is not simply a matter of old vs spells, as even some of those that are post RoE/Remaster contuine to see electricity as not a distinct element.
Personally I see this as fine, if a bit unintuitive, it just means that your Runelord have access some reliable early damage spells without being Anathema.
2) As a small point:
Casting a sin spell never invokes the anathema of its school of sin
So if its on your list, you don't have to worry about it.
What about Poison?
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Why not go to AoN and search for arcane spells with traits like: Force, Mental, and Sonic? That would give you your answer.
There are likely other traits that are not coming to mind for me at the moment, as well.
Here an AoN spell list. Yet this filter isn't perfect and may include spells that does elemental damage merged with non-elemental damage but already helps.
Currently we have a total of 2945 creatures so less than 2% have immunity or specific resistance to sonic, less than 0,2% have some kind of resistance to force and less than 11% have immunity or specific resistance to mental.
Obs.: This excludes the currently 106 creatures that have resistance to all (and usually these creatures have damage type exceptions).
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I would also include telekinesis types of spells like Needle Darts and Telekinetic Projectile.
Smacking someone with a magically hurled rock does not make it an elemental attack.
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Do you get anything good for such an extreme limitation?
Note- This is Assuming Poison is not an Element.
Cantrips - Daze,Gouging Claw, Phase Bolt, Puff of Poison & Telekinetic Projectile. Which aren't terrible but I do wish Eldritch Lance from SF-2E was Arcane
1st Rank - Admonishing Ray. Agitate, Flense, Force Barrage, Spider Sting
2nd Rank - Animated Assault, Blood Vendetta, Vomit Swarm.
Honestly this is not looking great but we got 8 more ranks to go.
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We've gotten some guidance for Runelords in PFS in the March OP update.
As a general rule, the OP team does not provide guidance on edicts or anathema, as they are inherently subjective. Runelord anathema should evaluated in the context of their former spell schools and common sense for the game. A temporary fireball is not considered creating something and attacking an enemy would not violate an anathema against protecting others or changing a physical thing.
Do you get anything good for such an extreme limitation?
Twice as many school spells as normal (Thassilonian Rune Magic and your Sin each have as many skills as other wizard schools), proficiency in martial polearms and spears, you get your advanced schol spell for free, and your thesis is a staff (which must be a polearm, albeit one that seems like it can have property runes in addition to potency runes) containing your Sin Spells, which recieves charges each day like a normal staff but can be combined with another staff for additional charges. Notably, a Runelord's staff can be used to cast spells of your max rank, while normal staffs with an item level equal to your own can only cast spells at least one rank lower than yours. So while a 5th level wizard with a staff of fire just has 3 castings of a 1st rank breathe fire, a Runelord of wrath can combine that staff of fire to have 6 charges that could be used to cast Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or a number of lower rank spells.
The dedication feat also allows you to change a prepared spell to a curriculum or sin spell of the same rank.
Any pushback on my read that Electricity spells like Electric Arc / Thunderous Strike should be usable by Envy because they aren't elements as defined by rest of the game-line?
I think the PFS clarification is suggesting that yeaaah, it might count as elemental for the anathema. For an edge case like that ("Sure, it's not an element, but Kineticist is still chucking electrical effects around"), you'd want to look at "Well, would this have been Evocation school before?"
Not to say that this isn't a fair enough loophole to use (Electric Arc isn't on the elemental list after all), just don't expect to never get pushback on it.
It's uncertain.
We don't really know what this anathema calls elements. It could just be spells that contain the game's 6 elements as a trait, or it could be anything the GM considers to be elements. Because we even have spells that deal fire damage but aren't covered by the fire trait, so it's pretty hard to say.
As a GM I would probably ask the player to choose another option, because I wouldn't be sure how to handle this anathema and would probably be quite restrictive with him.
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To me lighting certainly is elemental magic.
I remember people being upset that Elementalists didn't get Lightning Bolt (admittedly far down the list of issues with that) back then.
I don't think there's any leg to turn around and say "well it counts now sort of" ... Paizo's been pretty clear.
The best way to adjudicate this anathema imo is to use the existing framework for elements: Air, Earth, Water, Fire, Wood, and Metal spells are off limits.
Damage type doesn't matter. After all, most Water and Earth elemental spells do things like bludgeoning damage, which would be fine in other contexts.
Envy Runelords cannot deal damage with the elements nor the void.
Careful here: the Anathema does not just prohibit damage spells, but all spells that harm someone:
Anathema: Use your magic to cause harm with the elements or void.
That can be interpreted in a wide way.
For example, I think this also includes summoning creatures that utilize offensive abilities with the elemental or void trait/damage - a Skeleton Guard should be fine, but a Wraith or Fire Elemental is forbidden.
You can make sure it's fine though if it corresponds to your sin of Envy: as long as the spell/ability is used to take away something, rather than just causing harm, you should be fine. That's why you have both Tangle Vine and Earthbind as sin spells, to take away someone's (fly) speed.
As of RoE, we have defined the elements as: Air, Earth, Fire, Metal, Water & Wood.
Yes and no.
There are several different elemental philosophies, and each philosophy differs in what are elements. For example Minkai's elemental philosophy also classifies mental and void as elements.
However, the Runelords of old were active in the Inner Sea region, which would imply the philosophy that knows only those four elements: air, earth, fire, water.
Notably, the Runelords also existed during the absence of the planes of wood & metal, which would further corroborate the idea that neither wood nor metal are part of their elemental anathema.
That seems silly though.
I remember people being upset that Elementalists didn't get Lightning Bolt (admittedly far down the list of issues with that) back then.
I don't think there's any leg to turn around and say "well it counts now sort of" ... Paizo's been pretty clear.
The best way to adjudicate this anathema imo is to use the existing framework for elements: Air, Earth, Water, Fire, Wood, and Metal spells are off limits.
Damage type doesn't matter. After all, most Water and Earth elemental spells do things like bludgeoning damage, which would be fine in other contexts.
That is I think how I would run it as well. Does the spell have an elemental tag on it if not then it shouldn't count as an elemental spell for this anathema. It would be the most clear way to eliminate a lot of table rule lawyering.
I think of the elements as
Fire
Water
Wind
Earth
Those elements have natural expressions
Fire/lava
Water/Ice
Wind/Lightning/Thunder
Earth/Metal and poison when its toxic metal
If the game is leaving it open for a table to decide this is what I would consider elemental magic. This might not be complete either but its probably a good basis.
I would leave out wood as an element.
When I first read the anathema, I read it as no fire/acid/cold/electric/void damage. That is how I would run it for my players.
When I first read the anathema, I read it as no fire/acid/cold/electric/void damage. That is how I would run it for my players.
My problem with this version is that it means an Envy runelord could freely use elemental air and earth spells that do physical damage, which seems fundamentally contrary to the anathema, while blocking certain spells that have no elemental connection (like lightning bolt).
Plus like, if what they meant was "no energy damage except sonic, vitality, and force" they could have just said that.
Elements and the Elemental Cycles are explicit concepts within the setting, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to look at an ability that talks about 'elements' and ignore that.
I would make more sense if it was 'Use your magic to cause harm with the energy damage'.
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Like with most edicts and anathema, the rules are expected to be somewhat table-dependent and adjudicated case-by-case. Depending on where you are in the world, "the elements" might change, though if you're likely within the Inner Sea (where Runelords typically are), the philosophy of the Four Elements is most common: Air, Water, Fire, Earth.
If you want to be as broad as possible so as to not run into a theological impasse (and probably be PFS safe), then I'd suggest using the Elementalist spell list as a baseline, with all spells with the Fire, Water, Earth, Metal, Wood, and Air tags off-limits, regardless of where you are. It's a concrete framework within the game's rules that serves as a good bouncing off point for individual tables.
The lightning-but-not-air spells seem somewhat dubious, and you could avoid those if you wish to be even safer, but one could make a case that creating a big static shock or even a full lightning bolt from scratch is more like creating and firing pure plasma than pulling from the Plane of Air or something.
There's wiggle room, and I think that's on purpose.
Like with most edicts and anathema, the rules are expected to be somewhat table-dependent and adjudicated case-by-case. Depending on where you are in the world, "the elements" might change, though if you're likely within the Inner Sea (where Runelords typically are), the philosophy of the Four Elements is most common: Air, Water, Fire, Earth.
If you want to be as broad as possible so as to not run into a theological impasse (and probably be PFS safe), then I'd suggest using the Elementalist spell list as a baseline, with all spells with the Fire, Water, Earth, Metal, Wood, and Air tags off-limits, regardless of where you are. It's a concrete framework within the game's rules that serves as a good bouncing off point for individual tables.
The lightning-but-not-air spells seem somewhat dubious, and you could avoid those if you wish to be even safer, but one could make a case that creating a big static shock or even a full lightning bolt from scratch is more like creating and firing pure plasma than pulling from the Plane of Air or something.
There's wiggle room, and I think that's on purpose.
I think you hit on something that I would probably latch on to.
Does the spell tie into an elemental plane for the setting?
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I have a question, and this may be stupid. Who's giving the Anathema?
Like in the case of clerics and champions it's their god.
For a Druid or Barbarian it's just the nature of their powers, going so against their nature severs they're connection to where they draw power from.
Ancestral/heritage anathema are a result of general societal pressure, hence there are less consequences for violating them.
Where is the Anathema coming from. Not to say "Well why do I have to abide by that" but to ask "Who's judging if I've broken it".
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There are consequences:
You become trained in martial polearms and spears. When your proficiency for simple weapons increases, your proficiencies in these weapons increases as well. You learn the Thassilonian language.
Instead of an arcane thesis, you gain a personal rune. Your personal rune also affects your arcane bond.
You must select the School of Thassilonian Rune Magic as your arcane school, and you must choose one sin to specialize in. When you cast any curriculum spell or school spell from the School of Thassilonian Rune Magic, you do so simply by tracing runes of power in the air. This removes the need to speak incantations aloud. When you Refocus, you do so by contemplating or indulging in your sin.
Each sin is opposed by two others. The incompatibility of these sins means that casting magic philosophically appropriate to those opposing sins, as represented by each school’s anathema, interrupts your connection to your own sin and personal rune. If you violate your sin’s anathema, you lose the benefits of your personal rune, and whenever you attempt to cast a curriculum spell or school spell, you must succeed at a DC 15 flat check or the spell is lost. This disruption lasts until you complete an atone ritual; unlike a normal atone ritual, Arcana can be used for both the primary and secondary checks. Your curriculum spells (including spells of your own sin) never violate this anathema, sometimes providing alternatives to prohibited magic.
You gain Advanced School Spell as a bonus feat at 8th level, gaining the advanced school spell for the School of Thassilonian Rune Magic; once you’ve begun your studies of sin magic, there is no turning back from its allure.
So for the pre-remaster runelord the answer to, "Is damage from spells with spells with an elemntal trait like Spout or Scatter Scree forbidden, or energy damage like Acid Storm or Cone of Cold," the answer would be, "Both," since all of those spells were evocation spells. But at the same time, the new Amathema seem to be intended to be somewhat more permissive. Runelords of wrath used to be forbidden from casting teleport because it was a conjuration spell, but I can't see how the new anathema of, "Use your magic to protect or create" would forbid teleporting.
Personally, I'd avoid damage spells with an elemental trait as well as Acid, Cold, and electricity (The former two are pretty closely tied to water, while the latter is firmly tied to the weather outside of Irisen), but force is completely divorced from the Avistani understanding of the elements, and sound is produced by too many things in my opinion- You get to decide what your noise blast sounds like, so nothing stops you from making it sound like a vuvuzela.
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For Runelords, they're drawing their power from the ancient art of runes, which were adapted later by the original seven Runelords into what's commonly known as "sin magic".
Basically, there's seven fundamental runes that serve as the building block to all of their magic, and using one draws a specific emotion from its user, which ended up becoming associated with the Azlanti virtues of rule/Thassilonian rewards of rule: the seven sins.
Basically, by focusing your practice on a single base rune, you end up embodying the sin it brings out from you due to constant exposure. It's less "someone else is imposing this rule upon me and will take away my powers if I don't listen" and more "I find the idea of doing this repugnant and it goes against what I am slowly embodying and it will weaken my connection to my sin if I do it."
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Yuri, I understand the Anathema is baked into the class archetype. The reason for the question is to provide a new perspective to look at this question from. This isn't me whining that we shouldn't have to follow the rule, I'm trying to prompt us to consider this not just from the meta perspective of players and GM's, but from the in universe perspective of Wizards. Why does this Anathema exist, why does it cause my powers to break, and thus How close do I want to play with that line?
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Yuri, I understand the Anathema is baked into the class archetype. The reason for the question is to provide a new perspective to look at this question from. This isn't me whining that we shouldn't have to follow the rule, I'm trying to prompt us to consider this not just from the meta perspective of players and GM's, but from the in universe perspective of Wizards. Why does this Anathema exist, why does it cause my powers to break, and thus How close do I want to play with that line?
Well, considering there was rune magic derives its origins from the goddess Lissala, it might be that she's the one either inforcing the anathema, or the anathema might well be part of the inherit nature of Sin Magic.
Heck, it could be that using the different branches of sin magic require a certain mindset, and the magics covered by the anathema require a mindset completely opposite of that particular branch, so using them disrupts the caster's ability to properly harness and control it?
Would certainly make sense.
==EDIT==
Actually, after rereading the section for Rune Magic, it's actually likely the Personal Rune itself enforcing the anathema.
Because that Personal Rune is tied to your chosen branch of Sin Magic, meaning that using magic considered in conflict with that school is using magic that your Rune is antithetical to, so of course the connection would get disrupted as a result.
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So this is an in universe not an "Offend" someone Anathema, but a Disruptive anathema? Oh, then I would actually be a bit more vague as the DM. If a Rune/Sin Magic player at my table wanted to cast a questionable spell, or a spell I felt questionable for his anathema, I would warn him, "You are aware this could be pushing on your Anathema", but not give them a tell them a final ruling more than that until after they use the spell. and then let them push the boundaries at their own peril.
Anything that boldly flew the face of their Anathema I would advise them, "You know that breaks your Anathema". Not going to be coy about fireballs. and Down time research (Standard DC arcana check for their level) will reveal my final ruling, but in combat, "Might" is the best you'd get.
I disagree about any vagueries on the GM's part. Rune magic is well studied, and pretty much every modern Runelord has gone to one of the two remaining Academies. In universe Runelords should be easily able to determine if a spell violates their anathema. In the eyes of the runelords, the great runes are fundamental laws of magic that they've devoted their lives to studying. While paizo wants to leave the final call to players and GMs, when you're at the table a Runelord should always know in advance. Ideally, the GM and Runelord should have ground rules set in advance as the player is picking spells, but for PFS and other pickup games that's obviously not practical.
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I'd caution against that, taking away a chunk of someone's class features is a big deal and shouldn't be something that's too ambiguous about.
Especially in this case where the rule itself has a lot of disagreement over it. Letting someone push their luck on a clearly worded anathema is one thing, but getting a player after the fact over an out of character disagreement on what a rule means feels a little antagonistic.
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I mean, yeah they studied, that's why it's a basic DC for their level, on a skill that's going to be high for them. But I would say, ESPECIALLY in the heat of combat, no they're not going to be able to recall or know how EVERY spell would interact right off the bat. And if the Runelord wants to set it as part of their learning a spell that they would check this, great, something I'd be happy to establish that they make that determination as they are scribing the spell, but anything on a scroll, or that they pick up through level up, learned those so quickly they forgot to determine.
AGAIN this is stuff I would discuss with a wizard going Runelord at session 0. Springing all this on him the first time it comes up would absolutely be some crap-gming.
And I do understand the caution, I wouldn't want this to be, must less feel, like I'm trying to take away his class features and bonus. And if I neglect to warn him that something is iffy, that's on me NOT him, because the wizard would know if something approaches his Anathema.
I don't see how a Runelord could go through the process of learning and preparing a spell and not know in advance if the spell violated their anathema or not. Remember, that's an hours or days long process for the Player Character that we reduce to a click of a button or writing a spell name on a character sheet. I could see ambiguity with regards to telling a Runelord if an obscure spell on a scroll would violate their anathema if they learned it and cast it*, but a Runelord should have no trouble if any spell in a their spellbook would violate their anathema.
*So, that brings me to another point of ambiguity. All of the anathemas begin with "Use your magic to..." Does activating a magic item count as using your magic?
*So, that brings me to another point of ambiguity. All of the anathemas begin with "Use your magic to..." Does activating a magic item count as using your magic?
I'd say no, it's the item magic. Otherwise, you may end up with crazy situations where you have no way to go through a situation because it'd ask you to use a magic item violating your Anathema. The only case where I would be more cautious is if it's a magic item activated by "Cast a spell", as that is partially linked to your own magical ability.
Summoning a creature should definitely not count as doing damage with the elements. That's creating a physical thing (which Pride and Wrath are forbidden from). What the thing does after is not your problem. It's just like how a Wrath Runelord can freeze an enemy trying to kill a friend. Your aims may have been to protect, but the magic was destructive, and that's what counts.
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Summoning a creature should definitely not count as doing damage with the elements. That's creating a physical thing (which Pride and Wrath are forbidden from). What the thing does after is not your problem. It's just like how a Wrath Runelord can freeze an enemy trying to kill a friend. Your aims may have been to protect, but the magic was destructive, and that's what counts.
I was going to argue against... but then it occurred to me, from the perspective of what those sins mean, that Pride and Wrath would both be against summoning, for different reason though:
Pride: What? You couldn't finish the job yourself, so now you need to call in back up?
Wrath: What's the matter with you!? What's the point of destroying things if you leave it up to someone else!?!