I assume I have the feats that negate most of those penalties and just look at potential damage on a hit (basically assume I hit)
Also, a well built fighter archer will out pace the damage of a well built melee fighter, simply due to not having to move, but also having more iterative attacks due to many shot and rapid shot.
Why not simply run the numbers using multiple situations? This gives you a better idea of what the character can do and the value of those feats. Create a spreadsheet so you can simply plug in your bonus to hit and figure out the best tactics.
Assuming that that's true, which I'm not arguing, aside from play style what incentive does anyone have to build a melee fighter?I assume I have the feats that negate most of those penalties and just look at potential damage on a hit (basically assume I hit)
Also, a well built fighter archer will out pace the damage of a well built melee fighter, simply due to not having to move, but also having more iterative attacks due to many shot and rapid shot.
Somebody has to stand in front and keep the bad guys off of the squishies.
Assuming that that's true, which I'm not arguing, aside from play style what incentive does anyone have to build a melee fighter?I assume I have the feats that negate most of those penalties and just look at potential damage on a hit (basically assume I hit)
Also, a well built fighter archer will out pace the damage of a well built melee fighter, simply due to not having to move, but also having more iterative attacks due to many shot and rapid shot.
well, it's a ROLE playing game, not a ROLL playing game. That enough should make people want to play all kinds of sub-par characters.
There are so many circumstantial penalties when shooting an arrow: -4 from shooting enemies in Melee, -4 from enemies in partial cover, to name a few.
Note, this is what the feats Point Blank Shot (+1 on attack rolls within 30 ft) and Precise Shot (no penalty for shooting at enemies in melee) are for. They are pretty much "must haves" for a ranged attacker.
As far as effectiveness goes, archery/ranged combat can be more effective than melee combat (mainly because archery/ranged combat can make full attacks more often), but archery/ranged combat requires more investment in feats to get there. For a group/party effectiveness standpoint, you probably should have (at least) one character that can be effective at archery/ranged combat and (at least) one character that can be effective at melee combat. Note, either (or both) could also be casters if they make certain decisions in the character creation/advancement process.
Note, this is what the feats Point Blank Shot (+1 on attack rolls within 30 ft) and Precise Shot (no penalty for shooting at enemies in melee) are for. They are pretty much "must haves" for a ranged attacker.As far as effectiveness goes, archery/ranged combat can be more effective than melee combat (mainly because archery/ranged combat can make full attacks more often), but archery/ranged combat requires more investment in feats to get there.
The other must haves are Rapid Shot, Many Shot and Deadly Aim. A fighter Class can have all the feats he needs to be an exceptional Archer by level 11.
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I don't disagree, which is why I mentioned play style. But, some people play specifically for mechanics, number crunching, or winning the DPS Olympics.
As an example, without a friend keeping them occupied, what stops an intelligent enemy melee combatant from moving up to you and Sunder your bowstring? Or the whole bow?
Unless they are heavily enchanted, bows have relatively low hardness and hp.
Every time you fire an arrow you provoke an AoO from nearby enemies, so, again, having someone that keeps them away is useful.
(With the right feats you can avoid that, but that requires more feats)
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Missile weapons have a higher cost when you need to bypass DR (something that I think most people overlook):
Magic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?
No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
posted May 2017 | back to top
Clustered shots alleviate that problem, but it becomes another feat you need.
I don't disagree, which is why I mentioned play style. But, some people play specifically for mechanics, number crunching, or winning the DPS Olympics.
I'd caution anyone getting into the hobby to avoid playing for purely mechanical reasons. Mechanics exist to help simulate resolution of conflict. At its core, the game is about telling a story, and if you play for any other reason, you are missing out on a substantial portion of the game. I say this as someone who is highly attracted to the mechanical crunching and theory-crafting portion of the system. People who approach the game from a mechanical perspective will have a great deal of fun, but they won't have all the fun they could have had. Its not wrong. It's merely not the optimal way to play.
One thing to factor into your decision to play a specific type of character in combat is this: how easily are your tactics shut down? Archers are highly vulnerable to weather effects. You get a strong wind gust, and you'll start taking penalties. Those winds hit 51+ mph, and you simply aren't able to use ranged weapon attacks. There are spells that can shut you down too, as early as 3rd level (2nd level spells). If I see a spellcaster that doesn't have something ready to shut down archers, I see a soon to be dead spellcaster.
Naturally, there are ways to shut down characters that are purely melee oriented (something as simple as flight). The trick to being 'optimal' is to always have another way of being effective, even if it costs you complete mastery in one aspect of your fighting style. Doesn't matter how good you are at being an archer if you can't survive a simple melee skirmish.
..aside from play style what incentive does anyone have to build a melee fighter?
Survivability, plain and simple. Protecting the squishes and letting THEM annihilate your foes is a very satisfying play style. You get to be the point of the spear, enhanced by your allies' magic beyond your normal capabilities, and taking wounds that would kill normal mortals only to have those wounds wiped away as the wave of your healer's hand. You want to be a big enough threat that the enemy cannot afford to ignore you, but you don't need more than that.
Assuming that that's true, which I'm not arguing, aside from play style what incentive does anyone have to build a melee fighter?I assume I have the feats that negate most of those penalties and just look at potential damage on a hit (basically assume I hit)
Also, a well built fighter archer will out pace the damage of a well built melee fighter, simply due to not having to move, but also having more iterative attacks due to many shot and rapid shot.
After about a decade's worth of supplements, there are so many options that the game can't be reduced to simple ranged vs. melee mechanics (in my humble opinion).
Fighters have a ton of feats. Don't get me wrong, you can easily, absolutely build a great archer fighter with all those feats. At the same time, you could also build a great fighter who goes the way of Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Cut from the Air, and Improved Critical, dealing tons of damage while deflecting arrows loosed at him. You could even progress him toward mounted pounce by level 7 (or later through feats).
Note that the "melee vs. ranged" effectiveness in a given adventure or campaign is going to be dependent on multiple factors outside of just the character (opponents and terrain are the two that come to mind first). Overall, a ranged attacker will likely be more consistent at damage output (but can experience wider swings, depending on the scenario) while the melee attacker can often be better at more than just damage output (tripping, for example, can be a very effective tactic* that is much easier to pull off for a melee attacker).
Things get more complex if you start combining melee or ranged weapon attacks (or even both) with casting ability. In general, any character should avoid becoming a "one-trick pony" and have at least some back-up options if their primary mode is ineffective for a specific scenario.
Assuming that that's true, which I'm not arguing, aside from play style what incentive does anyone have to build a melee fighter?I assume I have the feats that negate most of those penalties and just look at potential damage on a hit (basically assume I hit)
Also, a well built fighter archer will out pace the damage of a well built melee fighter, simply due to not having to move, but also having more iterative attacks due to many shot and rapid shot.
After about a decade's worth of supplements, there are so many options that the game can't be reduced to simple ranged vs. melee mechanics (in my humble opinion).
Fighters have a ton of feats. Don't get me wrong, you can easily, absolutely build a great archer fighter with all those feats. At the same time, you could also build a great fighter who goes the way of Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Cut from the Air, and Improved Critical, dealing tons of damage while deflecting arrows loosed at him. You could even progress him toward mounted pounce by level 7 (or later through feats).
first range increment for a longbow is 100'. the archer, who will probably go fist, will get 1 or 2 rounds of shooting before the melee with pounce gets to attack. but it's seldom about PC vs PC, is PC vs bad guy, and they seldom have those specialized type builds.
Sorry, looking back at my reply again I can totally see how it comes off as "archer character versus melee character" in the most literal sense. I meant that example as an alternative: a melee fighter who can cover distance quickly, deny ranged attacks while doing so, and deal a great deal of damage.
And where damage is concerned, it's been a long time since I've checked DPR tables, but I feel at least somewhat confident that Power Attack with a two-handed 15-20 crit range melee weapon will do inflict amounts of damage that are comparable to those of an archer with Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, and a composite longbow.
Don't get me wrong, archers have tons of fun options--I just happen to think that, mechanically and flavor-wise, melee has as much going for it.
I just happen to think that, mechanically and flavor-wise, melee has as much going for it.
Most Certainly - Lots of fun to be had with almost any build.
The issue we had with archers was the high init score, combined with range and huge damage, typically meant the encounter boss was dead before the melee fighter got to even act. So while that melee guy could chew through the minions to get to the boss, the big target would already be dead.
Yeah, a consequence of all the books in question is that they made the need for tailored encounter design that much greater. And that, of course, becomes a pain in its own right--since you now have to consider at what point tailoring a given encounter with feats, items, etc., appropriate to the party exceed the desired CR.
Most archery attack can be show in movies and most of the started first before entering in melee, now a true question I wondering is preciset shot apply in range attack if the target is far away of your vision reach?
If your target is cannot be seen, you do not have line of sight, and the target has total concealment. You cannot attack a target that has total concealment. Not being able to see the square will also prevent you from attacking the square. So, unless you have something that allows you to ignore concealment the bonus from precise shot is irrelevant. Even if you are able to ignore concealment something that far away is probably beyond the maximum range anyways.
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Missile weapons have a higher cost when you need to bypass DR (something that I think most people overlook):
Magic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?
No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
posted May 2017 | back to topClustered shots alleviate that problem, but it becomes another feat you need.
Typically, an archer should have a supply of Cold Iron Arrows with Weapon Blanch (Silver) applied to them to cover the most common DRs: This brings the cost of 20 arrows up from 1g to 12g (1g for the base arrows, doubled to 2g for being made of Cold Iron, plus 10g for enough Blanch for all 20 arrows), but that is still an inconsequential amount after your first few levels...
DR/Adamantine is a bit tougher but is also fairly uncommon, so a small reserve of the more expensive Weapon blanch (Adamantine) would be a wise investment: If you are encountering this DR frequently, Archery might not be the best combat style to play in that particular campaign (though 10g per arrow for the Blanch still isn't that expensive by the time Adamanitine weapons or high enough enhancement bonuses to bypass this DR are typically available to PCs as long as you know that you will need them ahead of time).
DR/Alignment is best covered by getting Holy or one of the other aligned qualities on your Bow: Unless your character is evil or is rarely fighting actual evil foes, the Holy quality is pretty good before even taking DR into consideration...
So, yes, DR is a bit more of an issue for Archers, but it should be generally manageable with a little attention paid to logistics.
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Typically, an archer should have a supply of Cold Iron Arrows with Weapon Blanch (Silver) applied to them to cover the most common DRs: This brings the cost of 20 arrows up from 1g to 12g (1g for the base arrows, doubled to 2g for being made of Cold Iron, plus 10g for enough Blanch for all 20 arrows), but that is still an inconsequential amount after your first few levels...
I think that a special material weapon can benefit either from the Blanch or its original material, not both at the same time. The arrowhead is completely coated by the blanch, so the target isn't hit by the original special material.
The cost is low for the single arrow, but it piles up, seeing how many arrows are shot by a dedicated archer. Using the Blanch still wins handily on taking a feat to achieve a similar result.
Put another way, to avoid miscommunication, it is not a big problem, only something that needs to be considered.
I think that a special material weapon can benefit either from the Blanch or its original material, not both at the same time. The arrowhead is completely coated by the blanch, so the target isn't hit by the original special material.Typically, an archer should have a supply of Cold Iron Arrows with Weapon Blanch (Silver) applied to them to cover the most common DRs: This brings the cost of 20 arrows up from 1g to 12g (1g for the base arrows, doubled to 2g for being made of Cold Iron, plus 10g for enough Blanch for all 20 arrows), but that is still an inconsequential amount after your first few levels...
You are confusing weapon blanch with silversheen. Weapon blanch explicitly states "a weapon made of one special material (such as adamantine) can have a different material blanch (such as silver), and counts as both materials for the first successful hit."
For adamantine, a handful of durable arrows with adamantine arrowheads (61 gp each) can often be worth investing in on reaching middle levels.
Note: I have to admit a preference for the PF1 arcane archer (actually an eldritch knight with a 2-4 level "dip" in arcane archer; or an elf/half-elf oracle with the Wood mystery taking four levels of Deadeye devotee). Figuring out ways to bypass DR without investing in extra feats or having to spend more gp than necessary was something I put some thought into.
I think that a special material weapon can benefit either from the Blanch or its original material, not both at the same time. The arrowhead is completely coated by the blanch, so the target isn't hit by the original special material.Typically, an archer should have a supply of Cold Iron Arrows with Weapon Blanch (Silver) applied to them to cover the most common DRs: This brings the cost of 20 arrows up from 1g to 12g (1g for the base arrows, doubled to 2g for being made of Cold Iron, plus 10g for enough Blanch for all 20 arrows), but that is still an inconsequential amount after your first few levels...
You are confusing weapon blanch with silversheen. Weapon blanch explicitly states "a weapon made of one special material (such as adamantine) can have a different material blanch (such as silver), and counts as both materials for the first successful hit."
For adamantine, a handful of durable arrows with adamantine arrowheads (61 gp each) can often be worth investing in on reaching middle levels.
Note: I have to admit a preference for the PF1 arcane archer (actually an eldritch knight with a 2-4 level "dip" in arcane archer; or an elf/half-elf oracle with the Wood mystery taking four levels of Deadeye devotee). Figuring out ways to bypass DR without investing in extra feats or having to spend more gp than necessary was something I put some thought into.
We play the AP's and DR isn't enough of an issue to ever worry about being able to bypass it. Like, we're in book 5 of Skulls and Shackles, and I think we've had DR in like 3 encounters.... And when you can del 30-50 points of damage in a hit, DR 5 is not slownig you down much.
I should probably clarify that when I say middle levels, I am using the "classic" terminology for low-level, middle-level (mid-level), and high-level play:
Low-Level is usually considered to be 1st to 4th level. PCs are primarily reliant on class features, spells, and nearly all magic items will be charged (wands), consumable (ammunition, potions, scrolls, single use), or have limited uses per day. If WBL guidelines are being followed (no more than 50% of WBL in a single item), a 3rd level PC might have +1 armor or a cloak of resistance +1; a PC won't have a +1 weapon until right before gaining 4th level.
Middle-Level is usually considered to start at 5th or 6th level. This is when spells like animate dead, dispel magic, fly, greater magic fang, greater magic weapon, haste, heroism, magic vestment, speak with dead, water breathing, etc. become available. When I said "on reaching middle levels," this is what I was referring to. DR/substance can still be sometimes difficult to deal with, especially automatons. As you mentioned, the frequency DR is encountered can be campaign specific; a pirate campaign will have most foes as "normal" PC/NPC races, while other campaigns may have encounters with foes that have DR more often (e.g., Carrion Crown, IIRC).
High-Level is usually considered to start at either 9th-10th level or 11th-12th level. PCs gaining 5th-level spell slots (9-level casters) can significantly impact the game with the ability to cast two spells in a round (via Quicken Spell*) or use baleful polymorph, raise dead, scrying, teleport, true seeing (cleric/oracle), etc. Some consider 9-level casters gaining 6th-level spells to be the "break point" for high-level play.
*- a warpriest can use Fervor to cast swift action spells earlier, but can't do something like "cast a quickened divine favor and a normal 4th-level spell in the same round" (about the same "power curve" as a 9-level caster) until hitting 10th level
If your target is cannot be seen, you do not have line of sight, and the target has total concealment. You cannot attack a target that has total concealment. Not being able to see the square will also prevent you from attacking the square. So, unless you have something that allows you to ignore concealment the bonus from precise shot is irrelevant. Even if you are able to ignore concealment something that far away is probably beyond the maximum range anyways.
Yea I know that part what I mean of out of sight is like if your max sight view is 60Ft can still use prescient shot? Or need to use spot skill to let you use the feat?
My switch-hitting fighter got a lot of use out of adamantine weapon blanch while playing the Iron Gods AP.
just make sure your archer can deal with the other two common arrows shutdowns (beside deflecting\cut from air) - wind wall and a fighter who move and ready his tower shield once you start shooting.
just make sure your archer can deal with the other two common arrows shutdowns (beside deflecting\cut from air) - wind wall and a fighter who move and ready his tower shield once you start shooting.
yep - never had a bad guy in an AP with those either.
yep - never had a bad guy in an AP with those either.
Its entirely possible you've never played the adventure paths with such tactics built in. I don't have the entire library of Pathfinder works, but I've got a good bit on searchable PDF (missing a few adventure paths). Leaving out the bestiaries and standard creatures you'd fight in those adventure paths, here is a list of what I could find in the PDF's that are pretty much a guaranteed encounter. This list in not exhaustive and only includes the exact spell 'wind wall' or the feat 'deflect arrows'.
Carrion Crown - Book 6 - Morrigna (psychopomp) - (deflect arrows)
Council of Thieves - Book 3 - Mr. Straw (deflect arrows)
Curse of the Crimson Throne - Book 3 - Vimanda (deflect arrows)
Curse of the Crimson Throne - Book 3 - Beatific One (deflect arrows)
Curse of the Crimson Throne - Book 4 - The Cinderlander (wind wall)
Ironfang Invasion - Book 3 - Hobgoblin Phalanx Troop (deflect arrows)
Ironfang Invasion - Book 4 - Kisegar (wind wall)
Ironfang Invasion - Book 6 - Ironfang Honor Guards (deflect arrows)
Ironfang Invasion - Book 6 -Henra (deflect arrows)
Jade Regent - Book 1 - Hala (demon) - Stormwind Aura (wind wall)
Jade Regent - Book 2 - Wodes, The Blood-Feather Raven (wind wall)
Jade Regent - Book 2 - Frozen Shadow Monks (deflect arrows)
Jade Regent - Book 2 - Omoyani (deflect arrows)
Jade Regent - Book 4 - Suijin - Whitewater Barrier (wind wall)
Jade Regent - Book 4 - Sisters of the Broken Path (deflect arrows)
Jade Regent - Book 5 - Hirabashi Jiro (deflect arrows)
Jade Regent - Book 6 - Anamurumon (wind wall)
Jade Regent - Book 6 - Sudoshi Sento (deflect arrows)
Kingmaker - Book 4 - Zorek (wind wall)
Legacy of Fire - Book 3 - Radi Hamdi (deflect arrows)
Legacy of Fire - Book 5 - Ezer Hazzebaim (wind wall)
Legacy of Fire - Book 6 - Nefeshti (wind wall)
Legacy of Fire - Book 6 - Davashuum (deflect arrows)
Feast of Ravenmoor - Andretti Kriegler (wind wall)
Beyond the Vault of Souls - Olvan, Soul Gem Hunter (wind wall)
Clash of the Kingslayers - The Many-faced One (deflect arrows)
Cult of the Ebon Destroyers - Darkness Acolytes (deflect arrows)
Cult of the Ebon Destroyers - Beatific One (deflect arrows)
Cult of the Ebon Destroyers - Ikrimah (deflect arrows)
Cult of the Ebon Destroyers - Deepti (deflect arrows)
Cult of the Ebon Destroyers - Zaafira (deflect arrows)
The Pact Stone Pyramid - Ro Ap Han (deflect arrows)
Revenge of the Kobold King - Boss Payden Teedum (deflect arrows)
The Ruby Phoenix Tournament - Nearidei (wind wall)
The Ruby Phoenix Tournament - Wu Dizhen (deflect arrows)
Tomb of the Medusa - Lecretia (deflect arrows)
Rise of the Runelords - Book 1 - Tsuto Kaijitsu (deflect arrows)
Rise of the Runelords - Book 4 - Harpy Monks (deflect arrows)
Second Darkness - Book 2 - Akron Erix (deflect arrows)
Second Darkness - Book 2 - Witchwyrd (deflect arrows)
Second Darkness - Book 4 - Irnakurse (deflect arrows)
Second Darkness - Book 6 - Xizho (wind wall)
Serpent's Skull - Book 4 - Sskhavo (deflect arrows)
Serpent's Skull - Book 5 - Khavith (wind wall)
Serpent's Skull - Book 6 - Vyr-Azul (wind wall)
Strange Aeons - Book 3 - Priest of Bokrug (wind wall)
Strange Aeons - Book 5 - Sendala (wind wall)
Strange Aeons - Book 5 - Mother Grim Moon (wind wall)
Strange Aeons - Book 6 - The Mad Trumpeter (wind wall)
Tyrant's Grasp - Book 1 - Gardeners (deflect arrows)
Tyrant's Grasp - Book 2 - Trondus (deflect arrows)
Tyrant's Grasp - Books 3 trough 6 - I do not have
Wrath of the Righteous - Book 6 - Filleted man (wind wall)
If you come across any of the following monsters, they have wind wall as a spell or spell-like ability: Wind Yai, Flying Polyp, Hala, Bralani, Orania, Cloud Giant Oligarch, Storm Hag, Kamaitachi, Dwiergeth, Wild Hunt Monarch, Ancient Magma Dragon, Nephlei, Sharpshooter Automaton, Suijin, Ancient Havoc Dragon, Ancient Silver Dragon, Ancient Sky Dragon, Apkallu, Duergar High Priest, Empyrean, Lizardfolk Sorcerer, Mephit, Talmandor, Adult Bliss Dragon, Adult Forest Dragon, Adult Silver Dragon, Ancient Bliss Dragon, Ancient Forest Dragon, Chosen of Lamashtu, Isitoq, Jarl Gnargorak, Planetar, Prophet of Baphomet, Rokurokubi, Solar, The Would-Be Queen, Almara Kazaar, Treant, Undrella
I could go through them again to see if I run across any 'tower shield' entries, or any shield with the 'arrow deflection' enchantment. But that'll take a while.
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yep - never had a bad guy in an AP with those either.Its entirely possible you've never played the adventure paths with such tactics built in. I don't have the entire library of Pathfinder works, but I've got a good bit on searchable PDF (missing a few adventure paths). Leaving out the bestiaries and standard creatures you'd fight in those adventure paths, here is a list of what I could find in the PDF's that are pretty much a guaranteed encounter. This list in not exhaustive and only includes the exact spell 'wind wall' or the feat 'deflect arrows'.
** spoiler omitted **...
Just note that there is a huge difference between 'has Wind Wall as a Spell-Like Ability' and 'Actually has a reasonable opportunity to use Wind Wall in battle' as once the casters and melee party members engage, the archer probably isn't the primary concern anymore: Yes, it would be nice to shut that archer down, but using your standard action to activate the ability with melee already in your face might be rather awkward at best.
Additionally, Wind Wall is one of those spells that most GMs probably just ignore when looking over the stat blocks: It's just so very situational for the limited number of actions that NPC will get...
As for the Tower Shield tactic, it seems like this would actually take up all the NPC's actions, so you can just let your melee party members kill him/her at their leisure.
Just note that there is a huge difference between 'has Wind Wall as a Spell-Like Ability' and 'Actually has a reasonable opportunity to use Wind Wall in battle' as once the casters and melee party members engage, the archer probably isn't the primary concern anymore: Yes, it would be nice to shut that archer down, but using your standard action to activate the ability with melee already in your face might be rather awkward at best.
That goes for any sort of ability an enemy has, so I didn't really feel it needed to be mentioned. It was more that the enemy HAS the ability because any that lacked a counter to archery tactics didn't bear mentioning. Ie, they were not relevant to the conversation. To be concise, anyone can shut down archery by finding a way to get total cover or attack during a powerful windstorm. My response was specifically tailored to "yep - never had a bad guy in an AP with those either."
As for the Tower Shield tactic, it seems like this would actually take up all the NPC's actions, so you can just let your melee party members kill him/her at their leisure.
That is why minions and other hazards are often part of any fight that makes use of these tactics. Most, if not all, of the enemies I mention above are not found alone.
Yea I know that part what I mean of out of sight is like if your max sight view is 60Ft can still use prescient shot? Or need to use spot skill to let you use the feat?If your target is cannot be seen, you do not have line of sight, and the target has total concealment. You cannot attack a target that has total concealment. Not being able to see the square will also prevent you from attacking the square. So, unless you have something that allows you to ignore concealment the bonus from precise shot is irrelevant. Even if you are able to ignore concealment something that far away is probably beyond the maximum range anyways.
I am not sure what you mean by max sight? If you are talking about dim lighting you still have line of sight so can make an attack and precise shot will still work, but your attack has a 20% miss chance.
Basically, if you can make an attack, you can use precise shot unless something states otherwise. You might need to make a perception roll to attack a target at all. For example, if an opponent is using stealthy you may need to make a perception roll to know he is there before you can attack him.
Yea I know that part what I mean of out of sight is like if your max sight view is 60Ft can still use prescient shot? Or need to use spot skill to let you use the feat?If your target is cannot be seen, you do not have line of sight, and the target has total concealment. You cannot attack a target that has total concealment. Not being able to see the square will also prevent you from attacking the square. So, unless you have something that allows you to ignore concealment the bonus from precise shot is irrelevant. Even if you are able to ignore concealment something that far away is probably beyond the maximum range anyways.
I am not sure what you mean by max sight? If you are talking about dim lighting you still have line of sight so can make an attack and precise shot will still work, but your attack has a 20% miss chance.
Basically, if you can make an attack, you can use precise shot unless something states otherwise. You might need to make a perception roll to attack a target at all. For example, if an opponent is using stealthy you may need to make a perception roll to know he is there before you can attack him.
What I mean if I'm a sniper an want to shoot a target that is in melee with a friend at 65-80 ft and you max sight of vision is 60ft can preciset shot apply?
Or if the target pass the maximum range of weapon range (let say 123ft) and it's in melee with friendly do preciset shot apply?
What I mean if I'm a sniper an want to shoot a target that is in melee with a friend at 65-80 ft and you max sight of vision is 60ft can precise shot apply?
Or if the target pass the maximum range of weapon range (let say 123ft) and it's in melee with friendly do precise shot apply?
Still unsure what you are asking. There is no "Max sight of vision", unless there is darkness of some kind involved.
If you can't see a target due to darkness, then you really can't make an attack. However, anytime you can make an attack, you can use Precise shot.
Also, the max Range on a thrown weapon is 5x its range increment, for projectile weapons, it's 10X (so for a longbow, this is 1000 feet). As long as there is enough light to see the target within these range increments - then you can use Precise Shot.
Yea I know that part what I mean of out of sight is like if your max sight view is 60Ft can still use prescient shot? Or need to use spot skill to let you use the feat?If your target is cannot be seen, you do not have line of sight, and the target has total concealment. You cannot attack a target that has total concealment. Not being able to see the square will also prevent you from attacking the square. So, unless you have something that allows you to ignore concealment the bonus from precise shot is irrelevant. Even if you are able to ignore concealment something that far away is probably beyond the maximum range anyways.
I am not sure what you mean by max sight? If you are talking about dim lighting you still have line of sight so can make an attack and precise shot will still work, but your attack has a 20% miss chance.
Basically, if you can make an attack, you can use precise shot unless something states otherwise. You might need to make a perception roll to attack a target at all. For example, if an opponent is using stealthy you may need to make a perception roll to know he is there before you can attack him.
What I mean if I'm a sniper an want to shoot a target that is in melee with a friend at 65-80 ft and you max sight of vision is 60ft can preciset shot apply?
Or if the target pass the maximum range of weapon range (let say 123ft) and it's in melee with friendly do preciset shot apply?
Again, your meaning is unclear. I am going to assume that by max sight you are referring to either darkvision or lowlight vision.
Darkvision allows you to see up to the listed distance but not any further. So, if a character has 60ft Darkvision and the target is 61ft or farther you cannot see them, so they have total concealment, and you cannot attack them and the bonus from precise shot is irrelevant.
Light sources have two distances. In the first once the light source provides normal light, in the second one it provides dim light. The first distance gives off normal light you can clearly see the target and can attack it with no miss chance. The second distance is considered to be dim light, which allows you to attack, but the target is considered to have concealment (but not total concealment). This means you can attack but have a 20% miss chance. Beyond that you cannot see the target and they have total concealment so you cannot attack them, and the bonus from precise shot is irrelevant. Lowlight vision simply doubles the distance of both the normal and dim light.
If the target is beyond the maximum range of the weapon, you cannot attack them so the bonus from precise shot is irrelevant.
All precise shot does is to eliminate the penalty from firing into melee, it does not allow you to attack when you are not otherwise allowed to attack.
So in real life you guys can see a person at 800 ft fighting your friend with total clarity and shoot it with a bow with no penalty. That mean all person are Legolas I not asking for concealment, illumination, etc . I'm asking about distance of the weapon and the range of sight ( your vision with your eyes) to a target that is in melee with a friend of yours but they are far away from your "normal range of view", still apply the preciset shot
distance perception penalties in pathfinder is wunki at best.
you get -1 penalty for perception for each 10 ft to the target (a rule which i have not seen anyone actually use). so that is -80 to perception at 800 ft range. pretty sure not a lot could tell the difference if they are both wearing similar clothes and fighting.
but then again following these rules by the letter mean one can't see the sun or moon at all (as penalties for stealth for size cap at colossal and the stacking penalties for the opposed perception to notice it do no cap)
So in real life you guys can see a person at 800 ft fighting your friend with total clarity and shoot it with a bow with no penalty. That mean all person are Legolas I not asking for concealment, illumination, etc . I'm asking about distance of the weapon and the range of sight ( your vision with your eyes) to a target that is in melee with a friend of yours but they are far away from your "normal range of view", still apply the preciset shot
In Pathfinder you take a -2 penalty to shoot for each range increment beyond the first. As long as you can see them, and they are within your max range, then yes Precise shot can be used.
So in real life you guys can see a person at 800 ft fighting your friend with total clarity and shoot it with a bow with no penalty. That mean all person are Legolas I not asking for concealment, illumination, etc . I'm asking about distance of the weapon and the range of sight ( your vision with your eyes) to a target that is in melee with a friend of yours but they are far away from your "normal range of view", still apply the preciset shot
If it helps, look up the rules for Range Increments:
Range: Any attack at more than this distance is penalized for range. Beyond this range, the attack takes a cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment (or fraction thereof ) of distance to the target. For example, a dagger (with a range of 10 feet) thrown at a target that is 25 feet away would incur a –4 penalty. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot to 10 range increments.
So, while you could use Precise Shot to avoid the -4 penalty for shooting into melee within that 10x range with a longobw (which is 1000 feet), you can still take anywhere from -2 to -20 on your shot just due to range. Legolas canonically uses a longbow, and is not a level 1 character.
It is important to remember this system is not a perfect combat simulator but an approximation of one tailored to a (mostly) high fantasy setting. If you want one that is closer to actual combat, you'll need to drop into the low fantasy expectations (like lower point buy) and use some variant rules like critical fumbles. There are a lot of assumptions baked into the game, such as an expectation of characters training together to develop tactics in battle that would minimize little accidents from happening, like getting shot in the back. Such as if the archer knows you never dart to the left after a certain attack, instead favoring the right, they'd have more freedom to place their shot.
So in real life you guys can see a person at 800 ft fighting your friend with total clarity and shoot it with a bow with no penalty. That mean all person are Legolas I not asking for concealment, illumination, etc . I'm asking about distance of the weapon and the range of sight ( your vision with your eyes) to a target that is in melee with a friend of yours but they are far away from your "normal range of view", still apply the preciset shot
All precise shot does is to counter a very specific penalty. What it removes is the -4 penalty for attacking someone in melee. You still take all other penalties when attacking the target including cover or concealment the target has. Don’t forget that creatures can provide soft cover to your target. So, if your target is behind another creature they can get a +2 to +4 to their AC in addition to you taking a -4 for firing into melee.
It also sounds like you are confusing precise shot with improved precise shot. Improved precise shot allows you to ignore the AC bonus for anything less than total cover or the miss chance of anything but total concealment. But the prerequisites for improved precise shot are pointblank shot, precise shot DEX of at least 19 and BAB of 11+. So, anyone with improved precise shot is Legolas.
Even precise shot requires point blank shot. That means unless you have some sort of bonus feat a character will be at least 3rd level before they get precise shot. So, to get precise shot at 1st level you have to be human or a fighter or using something like the elephant in the room rules.
To the earlier why melee question:
Melee has some advantadges that ranged does not have.
--Certain melee builds (natural attackers) can go ham instantly, both in terms of "you got ambushed in a social situation where you dont have weapons out" and in terms of "Yes I have 4 primary and 2 secondary attacks at level 1, although without going super specialized, 3 primary attacks is quite easy to do".
--STR based melees basically only need combat reflexes and power attack, they can use other feats to improve saves, they can not be fighters (and thus have skill points or some magics)
--Having iron will or steadfast defender is often the difference between a TPK because you got dominated or not, and a ranged build has a harder time getting that
--You can kick in doors and go first
--You are a bit less vulnerable to your weapon getting broken/sundered (melee weapons typically have more durability) or getting disarmed (more likely to have a backup weapon in my experience) or getting your quiver stolen
The real problem is CMB builds vs ranged, without feat tax houserules, this just gets very ugly balance wise.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a situation where someone was shooting into melee at a range of 800 feet. Not saying it’s impossible, but ranges usually are way shorter. Often close enough where point blank shot is useable.
About the only time I have seen a character shoot into a melee at long range was when the melee was between two enemies of the character that were fighting amongst themselves. Since the penalty only applies if you the target is engaged in melee combat with a friendly character, he it did not matter. The GM did rule that if the character hit by less than 4 he hit a different target than he was aiming for. Since all the characters in melee were enemies, it really did not matter.