I'm eager for the remastered Oracle.


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Oracles were better than swashbucklers and alchemists pre-remaster, but the oracle has become relatively worse from Player Core 1 in a way only the psychic can match.
They also call for GM adjucation in a way even the champion does not.

- Can oracles sanctify? We ruled yes when we converted at my table, but I don't have a good sense whether oraclesor sorcerers will get that juicy weakness damage. I always thought oracles should be able to deal every alignment damage because their powers explicitly come from deities with conflicting agendas, so I hope they at least get to choose one side of they want it. But I'm afraid they will wind up like witches and animists and lack the choice at all.

-Curse progression does not play nice with the new refocus, but the mechanic is too centralized to simply ignore. My oracle was already level 11, so we opted that you could push past the major curse stage but would get a doom tick. This is more draconian than many would be comfortable with and probably wouldn't work at low levels, but flirting with death is important for my character concept. Even that only really works because I picked up a couple archetype focus spells.

- Their closest comparison class (clerics) got some juicy buffs. In particular, clerics got great news feats. Oracles probably have the fewest class feat choices right now, and while new unique feats would be cool I'd be happy if they just copied a bunch of the cleric feats for oracles.

I'm curious how people are house ruling these pain points in the meantime. Without house ruling, it feels like multiclassing into cleric is a strong choice, though psychic or champion might be better.


I'd be interested to hear as well. We haven't switched over to the Remaster yet.


Curse mechanics has never played well with the number of focus points that they have. That isn't really anything new.

I have a couple of PFS Oracles, but they are both at very low levels. So they have two focus points, but can only spend both on the first combat per day when they use a focus point at all. Or the last, I suppose...

So yes, I am also hoping that Remaster Oracle will have some attention put into that particular pain point.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Finoan wrote:

Curse mechanics has never played well with the number of focus points that they have. That isn't really anything new.

I have a couple of PFS Oracles, but they are both at very low levels. So they have two focus points, but can only spend both on the first combat per day when they use a focus point at all. Or the last, I suppose...

So yes, I am also hoping that Remaster Oracle will have some attention put into that particular pain point.

It wasn't significantly worse than how focus points worked for everyone else. The other casters could only use multiple focus points at a maximum of two encounters as well. They just had more flexibility in choosing which encounters those were. And eventually, the Oracle getting the refocus feats free and a level early gave them a nice advantage over other casters.

Neither of those is true anymore. Every other caster can use 3 focus spells per fight provided they have 30 minutes to refocus, which also diminishes the value of the "free" refocus at level 11.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Oracles were better than swashbucklers and alchemists pre-remaster, but the oracle has become relatively worse from Player Core 1 in a way only the psychic can match.

They also call for GM adjucation in a way even the champion does not.

- Can oracles sanctify? We ruled yes when we converted at my table, but I don't have a good sense whether oraclesor sorcerers will get that juicy weakness damage. I always thought oracles should be able to deal every alignment damage because their powers explicitly come from deities with conflicting agendas, so I hope they at least get to choose one side of they want it. But I'm afraid they will wind up like witches and animists and lack the choice at all.

-Curse progression does not play nice with the new refocus, but the mechanic is too centralized to simply ignore. My oracle was already level 11, so we opted that you could push past the major curse stage but would get a doom tick. This is more draconian than many would be comfortable with and probably wouldn't work at low levels, but flirting with death is important for my character concept. Even that only really works because I picked up a couple archetype focus spells.

- Their closest comparison class (clerics) got some juicy buffs. In particular, clerics got great news feats. Oracles probably have the fewest class feat choices right now, and while new unique feats would be cool I'd be happy if they just copied a bunch of the cleric feats for oracles.

I'm curious how people are house ruling these pain points in the meantime. Without house ruling, it feels like multiclassing into cleric is a strong choice, though psychic or champion might be better.

These are interesting questions.

I will give my own guesses here.

  • I honestly don't expect that any non-cleric/champion will get sanctification. Sanctification is a mechanical more focused to worshipers classes thing that oracles, sorcerers, witches


  • Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    YuriP wrote:
    Captain Morgan wrote:

    Oracles were better than swashbucklers and alchemists pre-remaster, but the oracle has become relatively worse from Player Core 1 in a way only the psychic can match.

    They also call for GM adjucation in a way even the champion does not.

    - Can oracles sanctify? We ruled yes when we converted at my table, but I don't have a good sense whether oraclesor sorcerers will get that juicy weakness damage. I always thought oracles should be able to deal every alignment damage because their powers explicitly come from deities with conflicting agendas, so I hope they at least get to choose one side of they want it. But I'm afraid they will wind up like witches and animists and lack the choice at all.

    -Curse progression does not play nice with the new refocus, but the mechanic is too centralized to simply ignore. My oracle was already level 11, so we opted that you could push past the major curse stage but would get a doom tick. This is more draconian than many would be comfortable with and probably wouldn't work at low levels, but flirting with death is important for my character concept. Even that only really works because I picked up a couple archetype focus spells.

    - Their closest comparison class (clerics) got some juicy buffs. In particular, clerics got great news feats. Oracles probably have the fewest class feat choices right now, and while new unique feats would be cool I'd be happy if they just copied a bunch of the cleric feats for oracles.

    I'm curious how people are house ruling these pain points in the meantime. Without house ruling, it feels like multiclassing into cleric is a strong choice, though psychic or champion might be better.

    These are interesting questions.

    I will give my own guesses here.

  • I honestly don't expect that any non-cleric/champion will get sanctification. Sanctification is a mechanical more focused to worshipers classes thing that oracles, sorcerers, witches
  • That's certainly been the case up until now, and you may be right. But I hope you're not. Setting the oracle aside, it would be really neat if you could have a heroic sorcerer who still is stuck with the unholy tag because they have the demonic bloodline. Oracles are not worshippers, but they are mainlining god juice quite similarly to a cleric. By contrast, witches don't actually get spell slots from a god (even if the god is their patron) as I mentioned in Blue's witch thread. And animists don't involve gods at all, IIRC.

    I think Paizo's been a little too stingy with Sanctification. IMO there should be a ritual anyone can take to become Sanctified under a god and remain so unless they commit Anethema.


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    Exemplars will get Sanctification, if that Feat remains from the playtest - presumably it would.


    Captain Morgan wrote:
    YuriP wrote:
    Captain Morgan wrote:

    Oracles were better than swashbucklers and alchemists pre-remaster, but the oracle has become relatively worse from Player Core 1 in a way only the psychic can match.

    They also call for GM adjucation in a way even the champion does not.

    - Can oracles sanctify? We ruled yes when we converted at my table, but I don't have a good sense whether oraclesor sorcerers will get that juicy weakness damage. I always thought oracles should be able to deal every alignment damage because their powers explicitly come from deities with conflicting agendas, so I hope they at least get to choose one side of they want it. But I'm afraid they will wind up like witches and animists and lack the choice at all.

    -Curse progression does not play nice with the new refocus, but the mechanic is too centralized to simply ignore. My oracle was already level 11, so we opted that you could push past the major curse stage but would get a doom tick. This is more draconian than many would be comfortable with and probably wouldn't work at low levels, but flirting with death is important for my character concept. Even that only really works because I picked up a couple archetype focus spells.

    - Their closest comparison class (clerics) got some juicy buffs. In particular, clerics got great news feats. Oracles probably have the fewest class feat choices right now, and while new unique feats would be cool I'd be happy if they just copied a bunch of the cleric feats for oracles.

    I'm curious how people are house ruling these pain points in the meantime. Without house ruling, it feels like multiclassing into cleric is a strong choice, though psychic or champion might be better.

    These are interesting questions.

    I will give my own guesses here.

  • I honestly don't expect that any non-cleric/champion will get sanctification. Sanctification is a mechanical more focused to worshipers classes thing that oracles, sorcerers, witches
  • That's certainly been the case up until...

    My post was cuted due forum maintanance.

    Follow it again:
    These are interesting questions.

    I will give my own guesses here.

  • I honestly don't expect that any non-cleric/champion will get sanctification. Sanctification is a mechanical more focused to worshipers classes thing that oracles, sorcerers, witches and summoners aren't. Probably if you want to get sanctification you will need to take the cleric/champion archetype to be able te sanctified and use your divine spells with holy/unholy modifications.
  • I honestly don't expect any balance modification about focus spells because the main difference between oracles and sorcerers focus spells is that oracles focus spells are in chassis not requiring the usage of feats. The only real change probably will be just to 10 minutes refocus at level 11.
    Maybe we can get some improvements here in the mysteries changing some curses but I don't expect changes in the main mechanics.
  • I also expect some feats improvements similar to clerics because they share some of them.

    GameDesignerDM wrote:
    Exemplars will get Sanctification, if that Feat remains from the playtest - presumably it would.

    Exemplars probably will keep the Sanctification because they are gods/demigods. They can decide what side to go into the cosmic war between the holy vs unholy.

  • Liberty's Edge

    I feel the Focus spells for the Oracle were all over the place as far as their combat value is concerned.

    I expect an overhaul of this aspect of the class so that it will be streamlined, and maybe strengthened too by taking some pages from the Psychic's book.

    And I expect the MC Dedication to be far more balanced/useful : somewhere between the current one (no thanks, never ever) and that of the Psychic MC (yummy).


    Captain Morgan wrote:
    - Can oracles sanctify? We ruled yes when we converted at my table, but I don't have a good sense whether oraclesor sorcerers will get that juicy weakness damage. I always thought oracles should be able to deal every alignment damage because their powers explicitly come from deities with conflicting agendas, so I hope they at least get to choose one side of they want it. But I'm afraid they will wind up like witches and animists and lack the choice at all.

    Everyone complained about neutral clerics. They nearly entirely solved the situation (there are still a few gods that don't Sanctify), I hope they won't force Oracles and Sorcerers to grab a Cleric/Champion Dedication just to be Holy, it'd be awful.

    Oracles are Divine casters and as such should have the option freely.

    As a side note, I'm also quite eager to see what they'll do with the Oracle. I hope the changes will be for the best and that my Oracles will end up better.


    As someone who has many friends and coworkers who still prefer PF1E, what I want would honestly just be a few more Mysteries. The choices we have actually ported over are fairly small in scale.

    One of my favorite characters from that edition is a Lunar Oracle. It was fun playing around with druid tools with a divine spontaneous toolkit. Longspear was my best friend.


    SuperBidi wrote:
    Captain Morgan wrote:
    - Can oracles sanctify? We ruled yes when we converted at my table, but I don't have a good sense whether oraclesor sorcerers will get that juicy weakness damage. I always thought oracles should be able to deal every alignment damage because their powers explicitly come from deities with conflicting agendas, so I hope they at least get to choose one side of they want it. But I'm afraid they will wind up like witches and animists and lack the choice at all.

    Everyone complained about neutral clerics. They nearly entirely solved the situation (there are still a few gods that don't Sanctify), I hope they won't force Oracles and Sorcerers to grab a Cleric/Champion Dedication just to be Holy, it'd be awful.

    Oracles are Divine casters and as such should have the option freely.

    As a side note, I'm also quite eager to see what they'll do with the Oracle. I hope the changes will be for the best and that my Oracles will end up better.

    Yet has already pointed by Captain Morgan witches already can be divine casters but is unable to be sanctified without cleric archetype. I really don't expect that they give a sanctification option to these classes. At most, a forced sanctification for the sorcerer of celestial/fiend lineages. But I think it's unlikely too, it's not the sorcerer's style.

    Kilraq Starlight wrote:

    As someone who has many friends and coworkers who still prefer PF1E, what I want would honestly just be a few more Mysteries. The choices we have actually ported over are fairly small in scale.

    One of my favorite characters from that edition is a Lunar Oracle. It was fun playing around with druid tools with a divine spontaneous toolkit. Longspear was my best friend.

    This is something that usually comes from other books. Like Ash mystery that comes from Pathfinder #185: A Taste of Ashes. Paizo usually expands the subclasses along their books releases.


    With the glow up that cleric and witch got Im confident oracle will be just fine; a handful of new fun feats is a shot in the arm for any class. Mechanics wise I guess they'll be tweaking the curses a bit


    YuriP wrote:
    Yet has already pointed by Captain Morgan witches already can be divine casters but is unable to be sanctified without cleric archetype. I really don't expect that they give a sanctification option to these classes. At most, a forced sanctification for the sorcerer of celestial/fiend lineages. But I think it's unlikely too, it's not the sorcerer's style.

    The Witch is very different from the Oracle: First, it can choose its tradition and as such Divine is given by only a single Patron. And like the Sorcerer, the Witch doesn't have to be faithfull to get her powers.

    For the Oracle it's rather different, even if Oracles don't pray a god per se they are heavily connected to divinity. As such, being Sanctified seems very fitting for them.

    For Sorcerers, it's complicated because you don't have to be in line with your blood. So an Angelic Sorcerer can be evil, making sanctification a little complex to handle.

    Envoy's Alliance

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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    Sanctification wouldn't make much sense for an Oracle, I mean, aren't they cursed because they are access divine power WITHOUT The permission of the Divine forces?


    Zoken44 wrote:
    Sanctification wouldn't make much sense for an Oracle, I mean, aren't they cursed because they are access divine power WITHOUT The permission of the Divine forces?

    It depends. Some Oracles steal their power from divinities but others just tap their powers from the same source deities tap theirs. So unless you consider that deities can't be Holy or Unholy, you'll have to accept that Oracles can be.


    SuperBidi wrote:
    So unless you consider that deities can't be Holy or Unholy,

    And they aren't, by the way. It's their worshippers and residents of their spiritual domains are holy, unholy or neither. Deities are just deities.


    Errenor wrote:
    And they aren't, by the way. It's their worshippers and residents of their spiritual domains are holy, unholy or neither. Deities are just deities.

    So if Sarenrae casts Divine Wrath, it doesn't have the Holy tag? Unless you have something written very clearly that states that we'll have to agree to disagree.


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    SuperBidi wrote:
    Errenor wrote:
    And they aren't, by the way. It's their worshippers and residents of their spiritual domains are holy, unholy or neither. Deities are just deities.
    So if Sarenrae casts Divine Wrath, it doesn't have the Holy tag? Unless you have something written very clearly that states that we'll have to agree to disagree.

    It's absolutely explicitly stated that no god has any holy or unholy properties or traits. In their descriptions in remastered books. Before that they had alignments, now they have literally nothing at all apart from descriptions. It's not a matter of agreement or disagreement, it's a fact.

    'Divine Sanctification' is about their followers only and very often isn't definite.
    It's a bit of a formalistic approach, but that the information doesn't exist is still true. And it even has or could have some sense: gods are simply above such matters, they just are. And have their agenda.
    As for Divine Wrath, Sarenrae doesn't cast it. It's her followers that can do that. And if she makes some direct miracle she just determines its effects as she desires and is able.


    Errenor wrote:

    It's absolutely explicitly stated that no god has any holy or unholy properties or traits. In their descriptions in remastered books. Before that they had alignments, now they have literally nothing at all apart from descriptions. It's not a matter of agreement or disagreement, it's a fact.

    'Divine Sanctification' is about their followers only and very often isn't definite.
    It's a bit of a formalistic approach, but that the information doesn't exist is still true. And it even has or could have some sense: gods are simply above such matters, they just are. And have their agenda.
    As for Divine Wrath, Sarenrae doesn't cast it. It's her followers that can do that. And if she makes some direct miracle she just determines its effects as she desires and is able.

    Sorry, but lack of information doesn't mean that there is no such thing.

    I very much expect Sarenrae to somehow be "Holy". You can say that it's not Sanctification, it's not the same Holy that her followers, but if it actually makes her effects Holy then for me it's just a nuance without impact on the mechanical effect.

    So, maybe they'll create another form of Sanctification with similar effects for Oracles, why not. But I definitely expect Oracles to be able to cast Holy or Unholy spells just like gods and clerics do.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    Errenor wrote:
    SuperBidi wrote:
    Errenor wrote:
    And they aren't, by the way. It's their worshippers and residents of their spiritual domains are holy, unholy or neither. Deities are just deities.
    So if Sarenrae casts Divine Wrath, it doesn't have the Holy tag? Unless you have something written very clearly that states that we'll have to agree to disagree.

    It's absolutely explicitly stated that no god has any holy or unholy properties or traits. In their descriptions in remastered books. Before that they had alignments, now they have literally nothing at all apart from descriptions. It's not a matter of agreement or disagreement, it's a fact.

    'Divine Sanctification' is about their followers only and very often isn't definite.
    It's a bit of a formalistic approach, but that the information doesn't exist is still true. And it even has or could have some sense: gods are simply above such matters, they just are. And have their agenda.
    As for Divine Wrath, Sarenrae doesn't cast it. It's her followers that can do that. And if she makes some direct miracle she just determines its effects as she desires and is able.

    That's not what explicitly means. What you're actually saying is that gods implicitly don't have holy or unholy because it isn't mentioned that they do. If you have an explicit example that actually says gods can't be holy or unholy, please cite a page number.

    Because from my perspective, gods not having those traits is mostly a function of them not having stat blocks. If a god who makes their followers holy wants to make them themselves holy, it seems wild to assume they can't.

    It is a particularly bizarre claim when the majority of holy and unholy creatures aren't clerics or champions but celestials, fiends, and undead. Undead certainly don't need to worship a god to be unholy. Celestials and fiends probably fall under your definition of "residents of their spiritual domain," but you know who else is a resident of a god's spiritual domain? The god.


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    Captain Morgan wrote:
    but you know who else is a resident of a god's spiritual domain? The god.

    :D

    It is hilarious, I had to react!


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    Yeah... I'm going to say that "can grant Holy spells to their clerics, but can't cast Holy spells themselves" is a case of "too bizarre to be true".

    Liberty's Edge

    Exemplar is the martial equivalent to the Oracle. There is an Exemplar feat to become Sanctified. I expect the exact same for Oracles.


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    I think Divine Access should be built into the chassis.
    Divine spell list is underwhelming and divine access feels too much like a tax imo.

    Envoy's Alliance

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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    SuperBidi wrote:


    It depends. Some Oracles steal their power from divinities but others just tap their powers from the same source deities tap theirs. So unless you consider that deities can't be Holy or Unholy, you'll have to accept that Oracles can be.

    I can poke two holes in that thought process

    One the general definition of Holy and Unholy are relative to the gods in question, and as an Oracle is not necessarily following a particular god, that wouldn't necessarily apply.

    And further, yes they draw their power from the same place, but they are not, themselves a god. Mythology is replete with the swift and egregious punishment for those who, not even claim the power of a god, but are even suggested to have it.

    I can understand a feat that might allow it, but naw, I don't think auto sanctification makes sense.


    Zoken44 wrote:
    SuperBidi wrote:


    It depends. Some Oracles steal their power from divinities but others just tap their powers from the same source deities tap theirs. So unless you consider that deities can't be Holy or Unholy, you'll have to accept that Oracles can be.
    I can poke two holes in that thought process

    I don't think that you are poking holes in the thought that Oracles should be allowed to be sanctified.

    At best you are poking holes in the idea that Oracles must be sanctified. Which, I don't think anyone is arguing for. Even Cleric isn't globally required to be sanctified - it depends on the Deity chosen. Only pre-Remaster with compatibility errata Champion requires sanctification.


    Eligibility for sanctification might be mystery restricted too. Bones Oracle might be restricted to Unholy, and Life to Holy, for instance. Or maybe you just pick a god with the right domain and sanctify that.


    Zoken44 wrote:
    Sanctification wouldn't make much sense for an Oracle, I mean, aren't they cursed because they are access divine power WITHOUT The permission of the Divine forces?

    Precisely. Deities and Oracles/Divine Sorcerers was never done properly. Both could easily for example worship a different Deity than they got their spells from. The whole area is a mess they never fixed.


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    Ryangwy wrote:
    Eligibility for sanctification might be mystery restricted too. Bones Oracle might be restricted to Unholy, and Life to Holy, for instance. Or maybe you just pick a god with the right domain and sanctify that.

    My Oracle of Life of Lamashtu strongly disagrees (even if I will not sanctify her Unholy given the possibility). Mysteries are supposed to cover the whole spectrum of gods and sensibilities.


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    Unless we get, like, a Holy Mystery and an Unholy Mystery, I hope that the option of sanctification remains equal for all mysteries--whether that's open, deity dependant, or none.

    Oracles gaining the option to take their divine wellspring and throw in with either holy or unholy powers seems perfectly fitting and should help the notion that sometimes oracles fill in when clerics aren't prevalent, so overall I'm in favour of oracles gaining some option to sanctify--even if it requires dedication to a supportive deity.

    Granted, the Animist is an example of a divine caster without the option to sanctify, but also Animist's divine concerns feel a lot more imminent, concerned with aspects of this world rather than the dichotomy of the heavens, so even if the question of sanctification becomes an option for most Divine casters, perhaps they need not apply.

    Given that alignment damage is now spirit damage, the stakes are a lot lower for whether a divine character can sanctify. All they miss out on is bonus damage against niche targets, and even in that case, they can always choose holy or unholy spells. It may feel weird that a devout Sarenite sorcerer with an angelic bloodline can't tap into either of those to unleash holy divine lances, but they at least can still use the spell to do normal spirit damage.


    Imo oracles need

    - some sort of freedom with focus points and curse penalties and boon interaction.

    - reworked ancestors mystery so it isn't objectively worse than everything else and slows the game down (a single action ancestor change would be a nice step)

    - lore Oracle needs a rework too, the curse benefits stop scaling well in the high level bracket, and not being able to communicate anything you do learn makes the whole matter moot imo.

    I don't want them to weaken curses and for us to go back to curses being ignorable fluff.

    I would love to see oracles and psychics go back to being masters of focus points and maybe being the classes that can innately break the cap.

    Focus spitballing for oracles: start with 3 focus points, cap increases to 5 over time, and there is a more gradual progression to the curse.

    Focus spitballing for psychics: a psychic stare that let's them cast
    a psychic focus spell while in it without needing a focus point. Think of it like panache and finishers or spellstrike. (Obviously keeping their normal focus points as well).


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    The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
    Focus spitballing for oracles: start with 3 focus points, cap increases to 5 over time, and there is a more gradual progression to the curse.

    Unless you want the Oracle to Focus on 1-action Focus Spells, it won't really work as it's already hard to use 3 in a fight.


    A number of people here don't seem to understand how cursebound works.

    Until level 11 an oracle cannot cast more then 2 focus spells even though they have three focus point before refocusing without becoming overwhelmed and unable to use focus spells for the rest of the day. And they can only do that ONCE as you cannot reduce below minor curse level between daily preparations. So after the first time you use a focus spell you are going to be limited to just 1 per encounter unless you want to be stripped of the whole mechanical part of being an oracle for the rest of the day.

    And since Oracle has the least amount of oracle class feats, the focus spells and curse really are the only thing that sets them apart form a divine sorcerer.

    From level 11 to 17 you can cast 3 and then two after casting the first one of the day. This makes actually committing to using focus spells for an oracle quite difficult in Paizo Adventures that don't follow in any way the recommended amount of encounters in a 24 hour period so you are compelled to save all the time. Meaning utility focus spells are rarely used.

    And since every class now gets their baked in ability to recoup all their focus points between encounters they will need a major rework to even be desirable to play, which I am genuinely looking forward to see for Oracles even though I have played a Life Oracle and am playing a Lore oracle in Extinction Curse and will likely not play another one for a long long time.


    Agreed Oracle needs a major rethink. Many of its mysteries are terrible for very little benefit, at least they do play differently. Their focus points need rebalancing.


    Oracle will need some rework for sure in the Remaster. Even now it is playable, but very clunky. Needs to be made more playable and smooth over some the base mechanics of the class.


    I like the oracle conceptually and lore wise but I don't think it delivers. The introduction seems to describe it as like a wizard cleric whereas the actual mechanics function more like a sorcerer cleric.

    I also dislike the lore mystery existing because you have this class that is about mysteries and then one subclass of it which is basically knowledge hence hogs allot of mechanics that should be open to the whole class. Like buffs to recall knowledge.

    As for the question of sanctification I really worry the oracle gets too homogenized with the cleric. Being a charisma caster is predisposed to social skills making it predisposed to being a preacher like many clerics already are. It already some what improved in the remaster because the cleric is no longer dependent on charisma for it's font but I think adding sanctification will move it back the other way so more will need to be done to separate them.

    I personally would like to see oracle focus on things like summoning and divination because I think they fit the historical idea of a divine mystery seeker or oracle. I'd also like to see them become intelligence casters with charisma divine casting left for something like a preacher class where it makes sense to do things like performance ect..


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    Solarsyphon wrote:
    I like the oracle conceptually and lore wise but I don't think it delivers. The introduction seems to describe it as like a wizard cleric whereas the actual mechanics function more like a sorcerer cleric.

    This is a fascinating take for me because I have never thought of the Oracle as anything like the Wizard. I have tended to perceive oracles as being gifted power, often without their asking for it, and wielding it by instinct and intuition. In this sense, Cha is the only thing that makes sense to me.

    On the other hand, I do kind of see what you mean if going with the idea that maybe oracles cut stroght to the source of power, bypassing the intermediaries that clerics use to moderate that connection. I don't necessarily think this is the theme I would want to centralize in the Oracle, but I can understand how it might be arrived at.


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    Getting blasted with divine juice so bad you no longer have a normal relationship with gravity is definitely closer to a sorcerer than a wizard.


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    Solarsyphon wrote:
    I like the oracle conceptually and lore wise but I don't think it delivers. The introduction seems to describe it as like a wizard cleric whereas the actual mechanics function more like a sorcerer cleric.

    What you are describing is a Diviner (Wizard with a specialization on divination spells), not an Oracle. The Oracle is not about knowledge, they are a conduit. And as such Charisma is much more fitting than intelligence, at least in my opinion.


    The image underpinning "oracle" is a robed woman high on natural glue fumes delivering cryptic prophecies of Apollo. It's about as far from intelligence-based prognostication as it gets. The original class then mixed in a bit of Cassandra, and others who received less-than-ideal attentions from the gods but lived in some changed fashion. Its current iteration focuses more on tapping into the divine power behind the universe directly, but that's still very much a charisma thing, not something one carefully plans and works out (intelligence) or a matter of intuiting some external will (wisdom).


    SuperBidi wrote:
    Unless you want the Oracle to Focus on 1-action Focus Spells, it won't really work as it's already hard to use 3 in a fight.

    I have seen plenty of longer fights occur, oracles pick up single action focus spells and focus spells outside of their class and many many scenarios where players haven't had the time to fully refocus.


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    The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
    I have seen plenty of longer fights occur, oracles pick up single action focus spells and focus spells outside of their class and many many scenarios where players haven't had the time to fully refocus.

    I'd prefer the Oracle to have assets usable during most fights without having to grab options from other classes.


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    My battle oracle can easily burn through 3 focus points by the second round with Call to Arms, Vision of Weakness, and Weapon Surge. It might be unique in that it has a reaction focus spells which opens fights, but lots of mysteries have a one action spell and everyone can snag Vision of Weakness, which is pretty great if you can diversify your spell selection enough. And while I agree I'd prefer they they didn't need to poach outside of their class, psychic and blessed one dedications are pretty much the best way they can actually utilize their large focus pool at this point. Amped Guidance makes burning through 3 points easy.


    It may depend on the curse you choose. Many are only giving you 2-action Focus Spells like Cosmos and Fire, and some Focus Spells are very circumstantial like Ancestral Defense. And even spells like Ancestral/Tempest Touch are very hard to use as you need to be at melee range. And I don't count Ancestors issue with spell casting...

    But the class hasn't been designed with 5 focus points in mind. As I said, a lot of 1-action Focus Spells or Reaction Focus Spells should do the trick. But that'd ask for a complete overaul of the Oracle spells (or some way to choose more Focus Spells).


    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

    IMO, the criticism around focus spells and the oracle curse is a bit overblown. The oracle is a full caster first.

    Granted, the focus spells and curse effects for the various mysteries do need to be looked at/tweaked for balance/playability. Spells with the cursebound trait should probably get a boost over other focus spells; probably at least as much as the psi cantrip spell amps for a psychic. The oracle is taking a persistent penalty (above and beyond the cost of a focus point) to cast them.


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    Mmmm... No, the criticism about focus spells is not mitigated by having a full set of spell slot spells. So do Witch, Druid, and Bard. But those classes also have focus spells that they can actually use all of their focus points on.

    Oracle is the only class that can be sitting on a focus point or two and be unwilling (or literally unable) to cast their focus spells with them.


    If I were to suggest a houserule, it would be that 'Overwhelmed' be a curse level state that is still usable. Much like the Moderate Curse level of Archetype Oracle.

    Specifically, my thought is to have a short list of conditions that have values, like Clumsy, Stupefied, Sickened, and Drained. Then when you would be overwhelmed by your curse, you roll randomly to pick one of the conditions and also roll a Will save against a DC that I haven't fully determined yet. If you succeed or critically succeed at the save, the condition's value is 1. If you fail it is 2, and if you critically fail it is 3. The condition persists for as long as you are overwhelmed. If you cast another cursebound spell while overwhelmed, then you roll on the list of conditions again and get a non-duplicate one to add to the list.

    You can still reduce your curse stage to your base level by refocusing, which will remove the overwhelmed state.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    I don't think the answer is raising the focus point cap for one class right after they simplified and unified the rules around how many points you have. If we wanted something signature, I'd prefer something closer to the psychic and the various Psyche abilities.

    It also might be cool if the oracle got the ability to manipulate their curse independent of focus spells, and could access the major and extreme stages significantly earlier.

    Dragonchess Player wrote:

    IMO, the criticism around focus spells and the oracle curse is a bit overblown. The oracle is a full caster first.

    Granted, the focus spells and curse effects for the various mysteries do need to be looked at/tweaked for balance/playability. Spells with the cursebound trait should probably get a boost over other focus spells; probably at least as much as the psi cantrip spell amps for a psychic. The oracle is taking a persistent penalty (above and beyond the cost of a focus point) to cast them.

    A focus pool is part of being a full caster, and an important one when adventures rarely adhere to a "3 significant encounters per day" rule. Clerics and wizards care less about their focus pools than other casters, but they make up for that with extra spell slots. Oracles don't get that either.

    Verdant Wheel

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    I am ok with the marriage of narrative and mechanics that results in Cursebound Focus Powers having a drawback that makes you think twice about using them.

    That said, maybe they could use a little boost in power - including for Focus Powers earned through other sources.

    Maybe something like:

    Cursebound Magic
    The way you cast Focus Spells is different. Your Focus Spells gain the Cursebound trait. You can only cast one Focus Spell per round, refreshing at the start of your turn. When you cast a Focus Spell, reduce the number of actions used to cast it by one: from ◆◆◆ to ◆◆, from ◆◆ to ◆, or from ◆ or ↺ to ◇. Advance your Curse by one step.

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