I don't think removing the -1 to AC and/or removing the Intimidation restriction on Rage is out of scope for PC2, even for a class that is not supposed to be getting a rework. The removal of the metal anathema to druids and giving martial weapons to bards and rogues is effectively a change on the same scope as that, the same with the changes to many subclasses like warpriest, ruffian, warrior muse, etc.
Honestly, at this point in time, I wish they just drop the concept altogether. The niche of "anti-mage" Barbarian shouldn't be locked to that. It doesn't work and traditionally, as we've see how it was implemented in PF2e, it is too costly.
Drop the concept, pick a new one to fill its niche. When you really think about it, being superstition is the opposite of being closed to magic, which is the mechanical foundation of the concept. You believe there is magic, even without it existing at all. Being skeptical and even minded, however, that makes more sense and won't rely on incredibly disruptive anathema.
As a Superstition Barbarian player, I'm fine with a revisitation of the mechanical aspect of the Instinct, and I don't care about the flavor aspect (as this is something the player chooses so I don't have to change anything) but seeing the whole concept of "mage slayer" dropped out of the game would really annoy me.
The Superstition Instinct is the only one to cover that (extremely basic in my opinion) concept. Mage slayers and witch hunters are a common fantasy and having no mechanical aspect covering it besides "high saves and high knowledge skills" would be sad.
That's exactly what I mean. Keep the Mage Slayer concept, ditch the Superstition angle.
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Yeah barbarian is a very solid class already and some of the suggestions people are making here is practically a new class.
Agreed. A few people here are asking for a major rewrite. It is not warranted. The barbarian is a good effective class. I don't want substantive parts changed.
As a side note, do you think spirit instinct is going to deal spirit damage or void/vitality in the remaster? It currently deals negative/positive damage so the most common conversion would be void/vitality, but since its called spirit instinct...
In the case they went for the spirit damage route, I don't think they would get a choice to sanctify themselves though (probably with a feat? I think the exemplar was like that in the playtest, though its not like it would be that OP for them to sanctify or anything).
Spirit damage is more likely a divine damage than really a spiritual damage.
Probably they will keep it as vitality/void damage instead once these damage is more linked to life and unlife.
As a side note, do you think spirit instinct is going to deal spirit damage or void/vitality in the remaster? It currently deals negative/positive damage so the most common conversion would be void/vitality, but since its called spirit instinct...
In the case they went for the spirit damage route, I don't think they would get a choice to sanctify themselves though (probably with a feat? I think the exemplar was like that in the playtest, though its not like it would be that OP for them to sanctify or anything).
Hopefully Spirit Damage with options for Sanctification. It needs some glow up on its feats as well, even though they're already quite cool. Maybe taking a page out of Animists would be a good route for higher level feats.
... no? The metal anathema was never seriously part of the druid power budget...
I disagree with this statement.
Metal anathema may not affect the druid's AC when using light and non-metal medium armors if you get +2 or more dex bonus. But this effectively prohibited druid build to use heavy armors even if you take Champion/Sentinel archetype.
Now druids are able to use heavy armors with just a general feat. This improved the thing a lot. You can now dump your dex without afraid to get a too low AC and will able to get armors with Bulwark trait and a higher AC.
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... no? The metal anathema was never seriously part of the druid power budget...I disagree with this statement.
Metal anathema may not affect the druid's AC when using light and non-metal medium armors if you get +2 or more dex bonus. But this effectively prohibited druid build to use heavy armors even if you take Champion/Sentinel archetype.
Now druids are able to use heavy armors with just a general feat. This improved the thing a lot. You can now dump your dex without afraid to get a too low AC and will able to get armors with Bulwark trait and a higher AC.
Stone O-yoroi was already a thing my pre-Remaster Fighter MC Druid enjoyed.
Where did you find a Stone O-yoroi?
Only till you get the right materials. Darkwood heavy armor starts at level 12
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Where did you find a Stone O-yoroi?
In a Treasure Vault ;-)
It is in the description of the Stone object (low grade) in the Precious Material Armor part of Armors on AoN.
"Stone can replace metal components in chain and composite armor"
And the O-yoroi is indeed a Composite armor.
Stone object (low grade) is Level 0 BTW.
But aren't Stone objects considered low-grade? And as such unable to get runes better than level 8? This restrict the armors to stay locked in +1.
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Thank you Paizo!
Removing the AC penalty from Rage is massive. A lot of character concepts I wanted to build are now enabled.
Better Fury is great. I really like the new feats too. I know it's not as good as other Instincts, but it's got a solid niche.
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Being able to rage constantly without enemies needing to be present and the additional bonus to speed at 3rd are also some really good quality of life. 11th level Mighty Rage giving you even MORE alpha strike damage?
Im going to be honest this remaster is more than I could have ever asked for.
Do we have a source?
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Do we have a source?
Pathfinder YouTubers "SwingRipper" and "TheeBadLuckGamer" both posted videos covering the biggest changes with all of the classes.
No AC penalty? That would be nice.
I was not expecting that but it looks like my Barbarian may retire after the remaster hit the shelves.
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As I said in the subreddit this morning, I think the barbarian is the rogue of PC2. It didn't need any changes but somehow Paizo felt the need to buff them a ton in the conversion to the Remaster. I'm not complaining it happened, but I find it really weird that rangers were left as is but barbarians which were the second strongest martial in the game received some significant buffs that make them even stronger.
I was not expecting that but it looks like my Barbarian may retire after the remaster hit the shelves.
You may be interested to hear that Superstition is getting streamlined, SuperBidi.
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No AC penalty? That would be nice.Yeah no AC penalty, no "when you run out of enemies you fall out of rage", free action rage at start of combat, the ability to re-up rage when you fall out of it without having to wait a minute, speed bonuses, speed bonuses on top of those while raging...it's decent.
Are you serious? Wow. I may play more barbarians. I like that class. It's fun.
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Being able to rage constantly without enemies needing to be present and the additional bonus to speed at 3rd are also some really good quality of life. 11th level Mighty Rage giving you even MORE alpha strike damage?
Im going to be honest this remaster is more than I could have ever asked for.
Plus a reason not to use heavy armour
Plus a reason not to use heavy armourBeing able to rage constantly without enemies needing to be present and the additional bonus to speed at 3rd are also some really good quality of life. 11th level Mighty Rage giving you even MORE alpha strike damage?
Im going to be honest this remaster is more than I could have ever asked for.
I think there is a level 8 feat to make Barbarians work with Heavy Armor.
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You may be interested to hear that Superstition is getting streamlined, SuperBidi.
Well, I was fine with preremaster Superstition so I'm not sure I'll be that interested.
But the fact that the Barbarian is always raging, with no cost and no penalty and as such no reason not to do so, well... I just hate it. For me, raging was a roleplay element where I was expressing my character: my Barbarian was raging because something was pissing him. In general, a spellcaster or getting low in hit points. And it was also a mechanical element: When was it best to rage? As a Superstition Barbarian, there were better moments.
So, yeah, I really don't see my Barbarian as always raging for no reason because it means I have to turn him into an idiot with not even an inch of self control. It's really not how I picture him and clearly the type of characters that don't interest me.
I'll also won't play a preremaster Barbarian if the post remaster one is strictly buffed. That'd feel a bit preposterous.
This PC2 is modifying all the classes I play (75% of my characters are from classes of the PC2). And I have the feeling Paizo is changing apparently micro things but that impact the way I see my characters a lot. But, well, that's the grumpy old grognard in me speaking.
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I prefer rage as more of a power than getting pissed off myself. So I'm good with the change. I like the barbarian more as a warrior who calls upon the inner power of some creature or just pure fury to use as a weapon. Just some guy who gets pissed off is not how I saw the barbarian.
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It is nice that barbarian got rid of almost all action economy tax for rage, just wish ranger got some love too instead of the almost nothing it actually received
I prefer rage as more of a power than getting pissed off myself. So I'm good with the change. I like the barbarian more as a warrior who calls upon the inner power of some creature or just pure fury to use as a weapon. Just some guy who gets pissed off is not how I saw the barbarian.
It works if you're a Dragon, Spirit, Animal or Giant Barbarian. But for a Fury Barbarian, definitely not. And Superstition Barbarian is a bit in an odd place as there's no justification to their rage but their hate of spellcaster, which only works for fights against said spellcasters. So I considered the basic rage in my Barbarian's case: in tough situations he channels a battle fury.
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It is nice that barbarian got rid of almost all action economy tax for rage, just wish ranger got some love too instead of the almost nothing it actually receivedI mean, Rage is budgeted as 1/encounter, Hunt Prey is budgeted at 1/enemy, that's a very different thing. The Ranger (especially the Outwit ranger) could use more Hunt Prey action compression feats than just Monster Hunter, but there's zero way they could get it for free like barbarians. Well, my barb player's going to be happy, at least ...
why not though, it needed it quite a bit more than the barbarian. It was like the main complaint people had with the class
I prefer rage as more of a power than getting pissed off myself. So I'm good with the change. I like the barbarian more as a warrior who calls upon the inner power of some creature or just pure fury to use as a weapon. Just some guy who gets pissed off is not how I saw the barbarian.It works if you're a Dragon, Spirit, Animal or Giant Barbarian. But for a Fury Barbarian, definitely not. And Superstition Barbarian is a bit in an odd place as there's no justification to their rage but their hate of spellcaster, which only works for fights against said spellcasters. So I considered the basic rage in my Barbarian's case: in tough situations he channels a battle fury.
Easy for me to see the superstition barbarian calling upon their inner will to use against casters.
Fury is just calling upon your inner rage.
Anyone can get pissed or role-play getting pissed off. The barbarian takes that idea and turns it into a usable weapon. Their fury is not just pissed off, it's calling upon some inner power and using it to fuel their body as a weapon. For fury, that inner power is fury, anger, and letting that power flow through them.
At least that is how I saw it. To each their own. Player should always color a power in the way they prefer it that provides RP they can enjoy.
For fury, that inner power is fury, anger, and letting that power flow through them.
But if you channel your inner fury or anger, you have to be furious or angry. That'd mean nothing to be calm while channeling your fury.
Which means that the second you roll initiative you are already furious or angry, no matter what. So your character ends up being nearly constantly furious or angry, which is a specific form of roleplay, one that doesn't suit my Barbarian nor me (I know a few people who get angry for nearly nothing and it's just toxic and I don't like to play toxic characters).
For fury, that inner power is fury, anger, and letting that power flow through them.But if you channel your inner fury or anger, you have to be furious or angry. That'd mean nothing to be calm while channeling your fury.
Which means that the second you roll initiative you are already furious or angry, no matter what. So your character ends up being nearly constantly furious or angry, which is a specific form of roleplay, one that doesn't suit my Barbarian nor me (I know a few people who get angry for nearly nothing and it's just toxic and I don't like to play toxic characters).
Why would a class that can use fury as a weapon not have control of it as well? They practice using it like a fighter uses weapons or a wizard uses magic? Fury is their weapon, not an uncontrollable fit of anger, but a focused, channeled source of power they control.
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No AC penalty? That would be nice.
I'd be deeply dissappointed if the AC penalty is really gone.
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Why would a class that can use fury as a weapon not have control of it as well?
Because you don't. If you are under Calm Emotions you can't Rage. Your rage is fuelled by your emotions and if you are not angry/furious you just don't rage at all. So you don't have a total control of it, it is deeply rooted in your propensity to be angry. And because now you're supposed to rage anytime a fight starts, it means your character is getting angry very quickly and easily. And we are back to what I consider a toxic behavior I don't want to bring around the table.
Why would a class that can use fury as a weapon not have control of it as well?Because you don't. If you are under Calm Emotions you can't Rage. Your rage is fuelled by your emotions and if you are not angry/furious you just don't rage at all. So you don't have a total control of it, it is deeply rooted in your propensity to be angry. And because now you're supposed to rage anytime a fight starts, it means your character is getting angry very quickly and easily. And we are back to what I consider a toxic behavior I don't want to bring around the table.
Controlling your emotions for power is not a new trope in fantasy. There is no reason rage can't be controlled.
Toxic behavior? What are you doing at the table to be toxic playing a barbarian? That's a personal thing, not a class requirement.
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No AC penalty? That would be nice.I'd be deeply dissappointed if the AC penalty is really gone.
Not me. I won't miss it at all.
The resist all is gone that used to make the raging seem worthwhile to make up for the lower AC. With the damage resistance all gone, I see no use for the AC reduction to simulate getting hit more often and taking worse crits.
The rules for fortification and damage resistance balanced the AC reduction in PF1. That damage resistance and fortification doesn't exist in PF2.
The removal of the AC penalty is appropriate with the way they changed rage to make the whole class work in PF2. Makes it more competitive with the fighter and champion.
I think this makes the listed changes so far make the barbarian more viable with less feat taxes to do what other classes do. The barbarian was never far enough ahead of other classes for feat taxes and AC penalties for abilities that were a mixed bag.
Be real glad to see the Concentrate problem gone too so you can pick up caster abilities without the feat and action tax of Moment of Clarity.
I prefer rage to be a controlled rage the barbarian uses, not an uncontrolled rage where they are just getting pissed off.
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What are you doing at the table to be toxic playing a barbarian? That's a personal thing, not a class requirement.
Well, considering the number of toxic barbarians I've seen played around tables I wonder if it's not a class requirement. Among those I've witnessed:
- The supposed-to-be-funny idiot: I had a Barbarian attacking doors, literally any door they were facing, because he once opened a booby-trapped door. This was the most idiotic version I faced, but you can add all the Barbarians trash talking an important NPC because they considered that normal roleplay or the Barbarians eating books or any other idiotic behavior because they were forced to enter a library or any place they consider unfit for a Barbarian.- Toxic masculinity: I had a Barbarian considering that trying to get his way with any girl he crossed was a normal Barbarian behavior, the player defense was literally "I'm playing a barbarian!".
- The bossy Barbarian: The guy threatening his party members to force them to follow his lead.
- The uncontrollable Barbarian: The Barbarian whose constantly ready to roll initiative and generates fights for no reason or destroys attempts to diplomatically/deceptively handle situations because they want to roll initiative.
Strangely, I have not seen any other class attracting that many toxic behaviors. So, yeah, I'm quite concerned about how the Barbarian is protrayed.
And we moved away from a Barbarian who was using an action to unleash his fury when he was facing an enemy to a Barbarian who automatically rages the split second he perceives danger.
So I think the level of anger the remaster version suggest is very high. For me, we have moved away from controlled rage, as the remaster Barbarian automatically rages at initiative roll and even if on paper the player can choose not to do so it will just never happen.
I personally don't play such characters. The suggested level of anger is just beyond what I consider mentally sane.
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No AC penalty? That would be nice.I'd be deeply dissappointed if the AC penalty is really gone.
The AC penalty is gone, but the free rage on init (and I think the boosted move speed ability at level 3?) don't work with heavy armour (until a class feat at 8, which also gives heavy armour prof). I imagine we'll see fewer heavy armour barbs outside of campaigns that start at 8th level or above.
I don't see the removal of the -1 AC, but the rage is a free action and usable at will. Much better.
Damage is a little higher. Barbarian got nice buffs.
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What are you doing at the table to be toxic playing a barbarian? That's a personal thing, not a class requirement.Well, considering the number of toxic barbarians I've seen played around tables I wonder if it's not a class requirement. Among those I've witnessed:
- The supposed-to-be-funny idiot: I had a Barbarian attacking doors, literally any door they were facing, because he once opened a booby-trapped door. This was the most idiotic version I faced, but you can add all the Barbarians trash talking an important NPC because they considered that normal roleplay or the Barbarians eating books or any other idiotic behavior because they were forced to enter a library or any place they consider unfit for a Barbarian.
- Toxic masculinity: I had a Barbarian considering that trying to get his way with any girl he crossed was a normal Barbarian behavior, the player defense was literally "I'm playing a barbarian!".
- The bossy Barbarian: The guy threatening his party members to force them to follow his lead.
- The uncontrollable Barbarian: The Barbarian whose constantly ready to roll initiative and generates fights for no reason or destroys attempts to diplomatically/deceptively handle situations because they want to roll initiative.Strangely, I have not seen any other class attracting that many toxic behaviors. So, yeah, I'm quite concerned about how the Barbarian is protrayed.
And we moved away from a Barbarian who was using an action to unleash his fury when he was facing an enemy to a Barbarian who automatically rages the split second he perceives danger.
So I think the level of anger the remaster version suggest is very high. For me, we have moved away from controlled rage, as the remaster Barbarian automatically rages at initiative roll and even if on paper the player can choose not to do so it will just never happen.
I personally don't play such characters. The suggested level of anger is just beyond what I consider mentally sane.
Hunh. I guess no one has read the tale of Logan Nine-Fingers or watched Berserk to see some better barbarian examples. Even The Hulk learned to control his rage.
Being a barbarian don't make you act like a jackass.
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??? It absolutely did not need it, Rangers have two very powerful lvl 1 action compression feats that are limited solely by needing to Hunt Prey. Barbarians get... Sudden Charge. I'm not going to say rangers didn't need anything but more action efficiency on the second most action efficient class in the game isn't it (monk is the first).why not though, it needed it quite a bit more than the barbarian. It was like the main complaint people had with the classIt is nice that barbarian got rid of almost all action economy tax for rage, just wish ranger got some love too instead of the almost nothing it actually receivedI mean, Rage is budgeted as 1/encounter, Hunt Prey is budgeted at 1/enemy, that's a very different thing. The Ranger (especially the Outwit ranger) could use more Hunt Prey action compression feats than just Monster Hunter, but there's zero way they could get it for free like barbarians. Well, my barb player's going to be happy, at least ...
Ranger is faaaaar away from being the second most action efficient class in the game. No class that needs to repeatedly spend actions for its gimmick can be. Those two (stealable!) feats at most give you 4 actions per turn. Most of the time, they give you an "extra" action only every other turn.
There are a ton of (sub)classes that tend to get an effective 4 or more actions per turn reliably. Gunslinger with its extra action on reload, Starlit Span Magus with Spellstrike+Recharge, thrown builds with Quickdraw (that's usually even 5), just to name a few and without getting into reaction economy.
But that really doesn't matter much. What actually matters in this particular discussion is the effect those actions have as a whole. What does your turn actually accomplish? And for the Ranger, that has always been really mid at most, which is a Problem the Barb never had. Hence it is puzzling that Ranger wasn't updated to this extent.