Anyone can play the way we do. Trip is not an uncommon tactic. The point is you can leverage the tree to be incredibly effective rendering quite a few fights trivial, especially single target boss fights.I'm not saying that people "can't" use tactics like that, i'm saying that they don't always (or even usually) "do".
In my current homegroup (from where the writeup was from), as an example, no one has AoO.
I'm running the same campaign online, and in that group, only now the rogue is retraining to a fighter, so that would be a single AoO in the group.
In the kingmaker campaign that I am a player, the only person with AoO is our king/champion (i'll pick up standstill via MC when I'm 8 as well, but we're still 6).And etc, different groups will adopt different strategies, because in one of them (mass AoO+trips) the protector tree may help more (kinda agree on you though that this is a super offensive strategy that usually would prefer killing faster rather than weathring things through the tree) isn't a testament to if an ability is OP or not.
I'm not surprised. My other players focus heavily on offense.
I'm the most tactical minded of our group. I usually set them up and try out odd builds. They just want to swing and see damage numbers. Very little thought other than offensive powers.
A lot of folks play the game in a very me centric fashion and you have to work around them to set up tactics or focus them on a more tactical approach.
So I can you see how you would be in groups that tend to build more about what they like or think is cool than what is best tactically.
Scrap Barricade, 3 action overflow, and thus stops Thermal Nimbus/aura.
Scrap Barricade is actually a great opener, though. Your first turn, you will have aura but no stance. Fire off Scrap Barricade as a way to split/channel/delay some of the foe, with possible bonus damage if they decide to take it down by beating on it. Next action, recover aura and get your stance up, without spending more actions than the stance would have cost you anyway. Now, it's not going to work if you have a party full of hotheads who like to charge, or if you yourself are not into the battlefield terrain manipulation game, but it's definitely a use case.
I'd honestly feel pretty torn between them. It would wind up being party/campaign dependent.
Scrap Barricade, 3 action overflow, and thus stops Thermal Nimbus/aura.Scrap Barricade is actually a great opener, though. Your first turn, you will have aura but no stance. Fire off Scrap Barricade as a way to split/channel/delay some of the foe, with possible bonus damage if they decide to take it down by beating on it. Next action, recover aura and get your stance up, without spending more actions than the stance would have cost you anyway. Now, it's not going to work if you have a party full of hotheads who like to charge, or if you yourself are not into the battlefield terrain manipulation game, but it's definitely a use case.
I'd honestly feel pretty torn between them. It would wind up being party/campaign dependent.
Scrap Barricade is 3 actions. Unless your DM allows you to walk around with your aura active all the time and your in range of where you want to place it, Scrap Barricade usually comes online in round 2 at the earliest. It's also an overflow impulse which means it will deactivate your aura while at the same time requiring a sustain action next round, which means taking up 2 actions in the following round to maintain scrap barricade and reactivate you aura leaving you one action to do something with which usually limits you to a blast slowing down impulse use.
I had Scrap Barricade thinking it would be pretty cool to use. A mini-wall of iron all the time. In practice, it's very hard to use effectively. 3 action overflow impulses with a sustain action are hugely action intensive.
There is also no range listed on Scrap Barricade. So not sure how far they intended you to be able to cast it. 30 feet is even too short in many scenarios where you need to use 3 actions to cast it unless you start off in position.
3 action overflow impulses really have to be worth using like Solar Detonation because they are very action intensive and slow your use of impulses in the following rounds. Scrap Barricade has some pretty big holes in it that make it a pain to use and not worth it due to the action intensive nature of the impulse.
I hope they add a range for Scrap Barricade. I think it should be two actions to cast considering the sustain action required in the following rounds making it eat far more actions than a caster wall ever does. This is on top of the action to get your aura going again. Making a use of scrap barricade cost something like 5 actions to utilize for 2 rounds and then an ongoing sustain every round.
Scrap Barricade is one of those abilities that looks useful on paper, but in actual use is not worth the action cost and could use some redesign to make it worth using.
Okay. I could use some clarification here, because I think my imagined usage of Scrap Barricade would be rather different than your experience.
Like, for starters, there's a good chance that I wouldn't sustain the thing at all... and if I did, it would be because it was effectively eating the entire turn of one or more enemies. Basically, it means that Scrap Barricade is you trading one of your turns to eat up the turns of some of your opponents - and possibly deal some damage, if they bust through the thing. At that point, "those monsters over there are unable to meaningfully do damage" is well worth the time spent on sustains, even if it hobbles you... and once it's no longer worth it, you just stop sustaining.
...though it *is* going to be very campaign-dependent, and at least somewhat GM-dependent. The whole thing is predicated on being able to use the wall to cut off some of the enemy while letting your friends engage the rest. If the encounters you run into don't lend themselves to that (like, say, if you're mostly doing wilderness adventures, and there's plenty of space to move around in and initially very long engagement distances) then it's obviously not worth it.
I also have to admit that I'm probably being led by my biases, here, atlast a bit. I *enjoy* playing games with terrain control, and Scrap Barricade is some shiny terrain control for the level it's at.
As far as aura being active... yes? I had been making that assumption. If the DM does *not* allow you to walk around with your aura active, then I'll agree that it's basically not worth it.
There's nothing in the rules preventing you from having your gate open at all times as far as I can tell. Though it is my personal assumption that it wouldn't be something you do walking around town or at that fancy dinner party.
Metal's wall is a bit of a problem because killing one section kills the whole thing. Normally, a wall that can't simply be walked around will also provide an artificial choke point unless even more actions are spent to punch extra holes in it. In this sense, metal's wall is pretty bad in that it trades extra control for mere chip damage (and doesn't even chip enemies with reach). In this sense, wood's wall is much better and also comes with a second height layer.
Sustaining them is the situational part though. If it's worth it it's really worth it. If it isn't, why bother. Moot point at 12+ though with the free sustain feat.
Water has three push abilities. As he noted:
Also, you can't really put someone into hazardous terrain with the water junction, can you? I thought that required push or pull
The ability to move, with so many different ways, enemies, in a class that's full with Hazardous terrain, is basically adding free damage.
While Tidal Hands requires a crit fail and Ride the Tsunami is 18th level, Call the Hurricane is 8th and only requires a fail. It combines very very well with Ravel of Thorns, does ok with the metal hazardous terrain one.
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Okay. I could use some clarification here, because I think my imagined usage of Scrap Barricade would be rather different than your experience.
Like, for starters, there's a good chance that I wouldn't sustain the thing at all... and if I did, it would be because it was effectively eating the entire turn of one or more enemies. Basically, it means that Scrap Barricade is you trading one of your turns to eat up the turns of some of your opponents - and possibly deal some damage, if they bust through the thing. At that point, "those monsters over there are unable to meaningfully do damage" is well worth the time spent on sustains, even if it hobbles you... and once it's no longer worth it, you just stop sustaining.
...though it *is* going to be very campaign-dependent, and at least somewhat GM-dependent. The whole thing is predicated on being able to use the wall to cut off some of the enemy while letting your friends engage the rest. If the encounters you run into don't lend themselves to that (like, say, if you're mostly doing wilderness adventures, and there's plenty of space to move around in and initially very long engagement distances) then it's obviously not worth it.
I also have to admit that I'm probably being led by my biases, here, atlast a bit. I *enjoy* playing games with terrain control, and Scrap Barricade is some shiny terrain control for the level it's at.
As far as aura being active... yes? I had been making that assumption. If the DM does *not* allow you to walk around with your aura active, then I'll agree that it's basically not worth it.
My imagined usage was more like yours until I used it. Overflow impulses are extremely difficult to use unless you set them up nearly perfectly. The killing of your aura so that it costs an action next round to activate slows you more. Then add in Scrap Barricade is a 3 action ability and it requires your entire round to use and you have to be in position immediately to do so.
Deactivation of your aura cuts off any stances you are in at the time that require an active aura. I use Thermal Nimbus for damage a lot, so it is important I keep that aura up unless it is really worth it.
I recommend giving it a shot so you see how the action sequence goes in use. It's a tough action sequence to use an overflow impulse, especially a 3 action overflow impulse, then move into a normal combat flow in PF2 fights with short rounds and movement.
Even a great overflow impulse like Solar Detonation disrupts your combat flow and requires positioning. It has a range of 60 feet. I'm not sure what the range on Scrap Barricade is as it is not listed.
If you feel like your combat flow works fine opening with Scrap Barricade, maybe you'll enjoy it. I found it was a hard impulse to use with any consistency and wasn't worth the investment in the short duration, highly dynamic PF2 group fights.
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The most common ruling on the walls that I've seen is 120ft range to match the elemental wall spells. Stone, water, wind, fire and ice all share this range. Kinda curious what other groups have been using now.
Scrap Barricade, 3 action overflow, and thus stops Thermal Nimbus/aura.Scrap Barricade is actually a great opener, though. Your first turn, you will have aura but no stance. Fire off Scrap Barricade as a way to split/channel/delay some of the foe, with possible bonus damage if they decide to take it down by beating on it. Next action, recover aura and get your stance up, without spending more actions than the stance would have cost you anyway. Now, it's not going to work if you have a party full of hotheads who like to charge, or if you yourself are not into the battlefield terrain manipulation game, but it's definitely a use case.
I'd honestly feel pretty torn between them. It would wind up being party/campaign dependent.
I agree scrap Barricade has uses. Though I much rather have Jagged Berms, which doesn't require sustaining and can be placed more flexibly. Even if it's size doesn't scale.
Or even wooden palisades, which is a little higher and doesn't break all at once.
All 3 have the same defense.
But your opener could also be Molten Wire + Thermal Nimbus. And they take lots of damage at the stat of their turn. Flying flame and a EB on turn 2. And they will probably die at the start of their next turn.
Overflows in general don't work as well with stances. Especially 3 action overflows and stances that work on enemy turns.
The most common ruling on the walls that I've seen is 120ft range to match the elemental wall spells. Stone, water, wind, fire and ice all share this range. Kinda curious what other groups have been using now.
We were doing 30 feet. 120 feet would be a whole lot better. The stone impulse says like Wall of Stone, so I can understand using that range.
Scrap Barricade doesn't default to any other spell, though it seems like a wall of iron.
Wall of Metal looks like an absolutely terrible spell. A monster of that level will rip through that wall like paper.
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My imagined usage was more like yours until I used it. Overflow impulses are extremely difficult to use unless you set them up nearly perfectly.Okay. I could use some clarification here, because I think my imagined usage of Scrap Barricade would be rather different than your experience.
Like, for starters, there's a good chance that I wouldn't sustain the thing at all... and if I did, it would be because it was effectively eating the entire turn of one or more enemies. Basically, it means that Scrap Barricade is you trading one of your turns to eat up the turns of some of your opponents - and possibly deal some damage, if they bust through the thing. At that point, "those monsters over there are unable to meaningfully do damage" is well worth the time spent on sustains, even if it hobbles you... and once it's no longer worth it, you just stop sustaining.
...though it *is* going to be very campaign-dependent, and at least somewhat GM-dependent. The whole thing is predicated on being able to use the wall to cut off some of the enemy while letting your friends engage the rest. If the encounters you run into don't lend themselves to that (like, say, if you're mostly doing wilderness adventures, and there's plenty of space to move around in and initially very long engagement distances) then it's obviously not worth it.
I also have to admit that I'm probably being led by my biases, here, atlast a bit. I *enjoy* playing games with terrain control, and Scrap Barricade is some shiny terrain control for the level it's at.
As far as aura being active... yes? I had been making that assumption. If the DM does *not* allow you to walk around with your aura active, then I'll agree that it's basically not worth it.
If you're not built around stances then it becomes a lesser issue.
I can reliably spam an overflow and a blast on the same turn most turns. Sacrificing that only if I need movement.
If I add in 'safe elements' - my need to move goes down BUT we then get the complexity you're speaking of because declaring who's safe is an action and not something you can do out of gate activation - so now we have a 4 action rotation, we need 2 filler actions as this is now going to be 'every other turn'.
1: declare safety
2-3: area overflow
4: (next turn). Flip on gate: EB someone or flip on aura if built around auras.
5-6: non-overflow impulse like flame arrow or whatever.
- repeat
On a turn needing movement we can switch to 'move and 2-action impulse' or 'flip on gate, EB, move, and then... raise a shield or something.'
This is also allowed:
1-2: whatever.
3: safe elements declaration
4-5: next turn: drop area overflow
6: activate gate and either EB or aura.
- The risk being if the situation changes so much between turns that your next turn can't start with an area impulse, you wasted 1 action. But you can usually gauge this one.
Ideally if you position such that your allies are not standing on you... you can use many overflow areas without needing to declare safe targets, and then your rotation gets really simple:
1-2: overflow
3: activate gate and EB.
repeat.
My imagined usage was more like yours until I used it. Overflow impulses are extremely difficult to use unless you set them up nearly perfectly.Okay. I could use some clarification here, because I think my imagined usage of Scrap Barricade would be rather different than your experience.
Like, for starters, there's a good chance that I wouldn't sustain the thing at all... and if I did, it would be because it was effectively eating the entire turn of one or more enemies. Basically, it means that Scrap Barricade is you trading one of your turns to eat up the turns of some of your opponents - and possibly deal some damage, if they bust through the thing. At that point, "those monsters over there are unable to meaningfully do damage" is well worth the time spent on sustains, even if it hobbles you... and once it's no longer worth it, you just stop sustaining.
...though it *is* going to be very campaign-dependent, and at least somewhat GM-dependent. The whole thing is predicated on being able to use the wall to cut off some of the enemy while letting your friends engage the rest. If the encounters you run into don't lend themselves to that (like, say, if you're mostly doing wilderness adventures, and there's plenty of space to move around in and initially very long engagement distances) then it's obviously not worth it.
I also have to admit that I'm probably being led by my biases, here, atlast a bit. I *enjoy* playing games with terrain control, and Scrap Barricade is some shiny terrain control for the level it's at.
As far as aura being active... yes? I had been making that assumption. If the DM does *not* allow you to walk around with your aura active, then I'll agree that it's basically not worth it.
If you're not built around stances then it becomes a lesser issue.
I can reliably spam an overflow and a blast on the same turn most turns. Sacrificing that only if I need movement.
If I add in 'safe elements'...
Scrap Barricade is a 3 action Overflow. You can use it at best once every other round prior to level 19. 2 action Overflow you can use every round as long as you don't have to move to set it up.
Yes. If you give up powerful stances, you can spam 2 action overflow impulses. Not sure it is better, but you can do it.
Yes. If you give up powerful stances, you can spam 2 action overflow impulses. Not sure it is better, but you can do it.
This is why I don't think Winter Sleet is overpowered.
Still on the stronger side. But any overflow and you need another action to bring it back up. Missing out on an extra Blast.
It's almost half a Sustain.
If you're not built around stances then it becomes a lesser issue.
I can reliably spam an overflow and a blast on the same turn most turns. Sacrificing that only if I need movement.
If I add in 'safe elements'...
But is that how it works? To me, it only looks like Safe Elements only requires an action for the Pacifying Infusion part of the feat.
The first half just reads like you get to exclude people for no action - or as part of the qualifying action.
correct.
Stances and Junction Auras are safe for your allies (up to Con mod), no action needed.
"In addition, you gain the Pacifying Infusion action." So you need an action is for all other impulses.
Note it doesn't say "next action this turn", just "next action". So it can work with Solar Detonation if you use it your turn before. Though most likely on 2 action options.
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IMO the Tree is too complex to discuss in whiteroom (it's not a simple question of DPR). Someone has the real experience with it to say how it really is?Unfortunately, someone experience is not someone else's. Especially with the Protector Tree that is dependent on 2 important things:
- How the party interact with it. If your fellow teammates just rush the enemies ignoring the tree it will be mostly useless. If they learn to interact with it, it will be much more helpful.
- How the GM plays its monsters. It's one of these abilities that is very GM and monster dependent. Once again, it'll lead to very different results.Plus the rule problem of ally and how people play it. It is an annoying rule in that some people play it very differently to how it is technically written. I agree with them - it is perverse that it does not protect the caster.
Plus the available room to maneuver in the encounter. Often there is not much, in which case it is unavoidable.As an Impulse it probably is too strong.Now, I think there are some obvious signs that the tree is too strong:
- It's balanced against a max rank slotted spell. At-will spell-like abilities (like Focus Spells or Impulses) are balanced against lower rank spells (1 or 2 ranks under the max slot).
- It's not an Overflow Impulse when all spell-like Impulses are Overflow ones. Cantrip-like Impulses are the ones without Overflow.
- Protector Tree is a good spell. There are some very bad spells that shouldn't be considered equivalent to at-rank spells. But Protector Tree is definitely a good spell.
Having played several versions of a level 1 Wood/x Kineticist, I feel that the tree not protecting the caster hits the right balance point.
Yes. If you give up powerful stances, you can spam 2 action overflow impulses. Not sure it is better, but you can do it.
I personally prefer it. The stances all seem less powerful to me. They're creating a zone of avoidance so enemies will stay out and allied allies will have to chase enemies out. That then makes burst AoE harder to use because you need to add in one more action to the 'action tax' to close the range gap.
I'd rather operate with ranged area effects and safe element being my 'action tax' when I can't avoid hitting allies, and not need to keep chasing enemies down.
There's a constant team wide action and/or positioning cost to keep enemies contained within the auras.
Auras start at 10 feet. Expanding them out is an opportunity cost at level 10 of giving up some other choice that I am not sure is often worth while - especially as there are multiple choices needed along the leveling process to get to that point, and many of them are paid early but don't get truly effective until the late game.
It's a build one can go in for, but it feels like you'd need to be on a team specialized around you more than you would going for a build that blasts out impulses either at range or in melee.
Yes. If you give up powerful stances, you can spam 2 action overflow impulses. Not sure it is better, but you can do it.This is why I don't think Winter Sleet is overpowered.
Still on the stronger side. But any overflow and you need another action to bring it back up. Missing out on an extra Blast.
It's almost half a Sustain.
"In addition, you gain the Pacifying Infusion action." So you need an action is for all other impulses.If you're not built around stances then it becomes a lesser issue.
I can reliably spam an overflow and a blast on the same turn most turns. Sacrificing that only if I need movement.
If I add in 'safe elements'...
But is that how it works? To me, it only looks like Safe Elements only requires an action for the Pacifying Infusion part of the feat.
The first half just reads like you get to exclude people for no action - or as part of the qualifying action.
This exactly. The real power of safe elements is being able to lay down area impulses into a mixed area full of enemies and allies and only hit the side you want to hit.
Torrent in the Blood - heal only your allies.
Tidal Hands, Blazing Wave, etc - hurt only your enemies.
Ariel Boomerang or Flaming Arrow - can now shortcut through allies our yourself (flaming arrow) without harm.
But this costs an action to declare who's effected.
I'm often in a situation where I have myself, allies, and enemies all around, and lose an enemy or two navigating a path of flaming arrow that avoids a teammate or myself. If I could move it through my side harmlessly, I'd be able to pick up one or two more enemies hit. Likewise for the many cone based impulses.
I don't see how it does. I've re-read Safe Elements three times - and I'm sure I'm missing something - but as long as you're not using Pacifying Infusion, I don't see any additional action requirement to designate targets safe.
But this costs an action to declare who's effected.
you declare your allies when you use Channel Elements. That makes them safe from Winter Sleet.
But you need to spend the action to make Tidal Hands safe for them.
Also, all the Aura's, except water, already gave ally or enemy.
Safe Elements with a water Aura is a bit of a trap. As you want to declare your enemy to not get fire resistant, but then also exclude them from Winters Grasp.
You really want it with Sea Glass Guardian though. That will heal any creature.
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There's nothing in the rules preventing you from having your gate open at all times as far as I can tell. Though it is my personal assumption that it wouldn't be something you do walking around town or at that fancy dinner party.
I've been running it via "walking around with your gate open is exactly the same in terms of inconvenient, weird, off-putting, etc. as walking around with your weapon drawn."
So like if you're in a situation where your weapon is in your hand, ready to be used immediately,that same situation is probably reasonable for having your gate open.
I agree. But I need to state that for kineticist staying with its gate open most of the time is more natural for it than a fighter with a weapon in hand.
While for non-kineticists a kineticists surrounded by its aura effects could be scarier than a guard walking around with its weapon in hand.
But all this is a minor question IMO. During an exploration makes completely sense that a fighter explores a dungeon with a weapon in hand just like a kineticist doing the same with its gate aura active.
While if a kineticist with its aura enable in a bank will be considered so offensive and hostile like a fighter doing the same with a weapon at hand.
Yes. If you give up powerful stances, you can spam 2 action overflow impulses. Not sure it is better, but you can do it.I personally prefer it. The stances all seem less powerful to me. They're creating a zone of avoidance so enemies will stay out and allied allies will have to chase enemies out. That then makes burst AoE harder to use because you need to add in one more action to the 'action tax' to close the range gap.
I'd rather operate with ranged area effects and safe element being my 'action tax' when I can't avoid hitting allies, and not need to keep chasing enemies down.
There's a constant team wide action and/or positioning cost to keep enemies contained within the auras.
Auras start at 10 feet. Expanding them out is an opportunity cost at level 10 of giving up some other choice that I am not sure is often worth while - especially as there are multiple choices needed along the leveling process to get to that point, and many of them are paid early but don't get truly effective until the late game.
It's a build one can go in for, but it feels like you'd need to be on a team specialized around you more than you would going for a build that blasts out impulses either at range or in melee.
I can see giving up stances if you want to operate at range.
My earth/fire stance is a melee guy. He gets right up in the fights. His Thermal Nimbus stacks a lot of damage.
I imagine it depends on the build. I can see a ranged build giving up stances to spam 2 action AoE impulses.
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I don't see how it does. I've re-read Safe Elements three times - and I'm sure I'm missing something - but as long as you're not using Pacifying Infusion, I don't see any additional action requirement to designate targets safe.
But this costs an action to declare who's effected.
you declare your allies when you use Channel Elements. That makes them safe from Winter Sleet.
But you need to spend the action to make Tidal Hands safe for them.
Also, all the Aura's, except water, already gave ally or enemy.
Safe Elements with a water Aura is a bit of a trap. As you want to declare your enemy to not get fire resistant, but then also exclude them from Winters Grasp.
You really want it with Sea Glass Guardian though. That will heal any creature.
Reading sea glass guardians, I think it will only heal allies? From the book;
Eerily beautiful elemental water beings race around you, eager to protect and heal you and your allies. Their forms vary and might include eels formed of undulating water or ice crystals whirling in the shape of a jellyfish. The
guardians flow around combatants and don’t occupy a space. They attempt to intercept all dangers, granting you and your allies within your kinetic aura a +1 status bonus to AC and saving throws. If any creature affected is critically hit or critically fails at a saving throw against an attack, effect from an enemy, or hazard and remains above 0 HP, the guardians reach out to heal that creature. The creature regains 4d8+8 Hit Points, and the impulse ends. If the creature is in water, the healing dice are d10s instead of d8s.
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Reading sea glass guardians, I think it will only heal allies? From the book;Eerily beautiful elemental water beings race around you, eager to protect and heal you and your allies. Their forms vary and might include eels formed of undulating water or ice crystals whirling in the shape of a jellyfish. The
guardians flow around combatants and don’t occupy a space. They attempt to intercept all dangers, granting you and your allies within your kinetic aura a +1 status bonus to AC and saving throws. If any creature affected is critically hit or critically fails at a saving throw against an attack, effect from an enemy, or hazard and remains above 0 HP, the guardians reach out to heal that creature. The creature regains 4d8+8 Hit Points, and the impulse ends. If the creature is in water, the healing dice are d10s instead of d8s.
you're right.
"Any creature affected", which is just your allies.
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IMO the Tree is too complex to discuss in whiteroom (it's not a simple question of DPR). Someone has the real experience with it to say how it really is?
I’m three or four sessions into GMing Kingmaker 2E with a Wood/Earth Kineticist who has made pretty extensive use of the Tree, all at 1st and 2nd level. So far it’s seemed significant, but not busted. There have definitely been fights in which the Tree has been recast multiple times after doing its job, and it has kept PCs from being dropped several times. It has really shone in bottleneck situations, where everyone is naturally bunched up, so that it can protect multiple PCs.
We hit 3rd level at the end of last week’s session, so today it will make its Rank 2 debut, and eat 20 damage at a go, while enemy damage hasn’t doubled, so I may feel differently after another session or two.
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Scrap Barricade is 3 actions. Unless your DM allows you to walk around with your aura active all the time
With reference to earlier discussion in this thread, I don’t see why Kineticists wouldn’t have their aura active as a general rule, and as a GM, I don’t see much, if any, reason to disallow this.
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Scrap Barricade is 3 actions. Unless your DM allows you to walk around with your aura active all the timeWith reference to earlier discussion in this thread, I don’t see why Kineticists wouldn’t have their aura active as a general rule, and as a GM, I don’t see much, if any, reason to disallow this.
As a GM I feel like it's important to not limit or allow the Kineticist to do things in noncombat situations that other classes aren't allowed to do (other than "use impulses.") Like any time you're walking around with your aura up, it will be read by NPCs similarly to "you are walking around with a bow with an arrow nocked". So it's something you're not going to want to do, like, at a garden party or during market day. You can technically walk around with a weapon at the ready 100% of the time, but people will think you're a maniac when you do it at the library.
Similarly the "10 minute, don't need your aura up" impulses (like armor and earth) are fair to just maintain any time the fighter would be walking around in plate mail. But you're already at an advantage in that you can put on your armor faster than other people can if the garden party is beset by hordes of the undead, so you don't really need more than that.
Yes. If you give up powerful stances, you can spam 2 action overflow impulses. Not sure it is better, but you can do it.I personally prefer it. The stances all seem less powerful to me. They're creating a zone of avoidance so enemies will stay out and allied allies will have to chase enemies out. That then makes burst AoE harder to use because you need to add in one more action to the 'action tax' to close the range gap.
I'd rather operate with ranged area effects and safe element being my 'action tax' when I can't avoid hitting allies, and not need to keep chasing enemies down.
There's a constant team wide action and/or positioning cost to keep enemies contained within the auras.
Auras start at 10 feet. Expanding them out is an opportunity cost at level 10 of giving up some other choice that I am not sure is often worth while - especially as there are multiple choices needed along the leveling process to get to that point, and many of them are paid early but don't get truly effective until the late game.
It's a build one can go in for, but it feels like you'd need to be on a team specialized around you more than you would going for a build that blasts out impulses either at range or in melee.
I can see giving up stances if you want to operate at range.
My earth/fire stance is a melee guy. He gets right up in the fights. His Thermal Nimbus stacks a lot of damage.
I imagine it depends on the build. I can see a ranged build giving up stances to spam 2 action AoE impulses.
If you don't feel like getting into it I totally understand, but I was wondering if you would mind talking about the fire/earth experience? When I eventually play a fire/earth kineticist (water/wood is up first for me) I am also going to add metal in later on. Main reason being I don't feel like tremor is a reliable damage option when fire is off the table, and weight of stone is too weak (very cool for utility but not so much for damage). Have you run into situations where fire was off the table and you still felt strong, doing the normal kineticist thing, or was it basically just elemental blasting with earth?
If you don't feel like getting into it I totally understand, but I was wondering if you would mind talking about the fire/earth experience? When I eventually play a fire/earth kineticist (water/wood is up first for me) I am also going to add metal in later on. Main reason being I don't feel like tremor is a reliable damage option when fire is off the table, and weight of stone is too weak (very cool for utility but...Yes. If you give up powerful stances, you can spam 2 action overflow impulses. Not sure it is better, but you can do it.I personally prefer it. The stances all seem less powerful to me. They're creating a zone of avoidance so enemies will stay out and allied allies will have to chase enemies out. That then makes burst AoE harder to use because you need to add in one more action to the 'action tax' to close the range gap.
I'd rather operate with ranged area effects and safe element being my 'action tax' when I can't avoid hitting allies, and not need to keep chasing enemies down.
There's a constant team wide action and/or positioning cost to keep enemies contained within the auras.
Auras start at 10 feet. Expanding them out is an opportunity cost at level 10 of giving up some other choice that I am not sure is often worth while - especially as there are multiple choices needed along the leveling process to get to that point, and many of them are paid early but don't get truly effective until the late game.
It's a build one can go in for, but it feels like you'd need to be on a team specialized around you more than you would going for a build that blasts out impulses either at range or in melee.
I can see giving up stances if you want to operate at range.
My earth/fire stance is a melee guy. He gets right up in the fights. His Thermal Nimbus stacks a lot of damage.
I imagine it depends on the build. I can see a ranged build giving up stances to spam 2 action AoE impulses.
Sure.
Fire and earth has been a decent mix.
I use Armor of Earth for defense. This was a nice improvement in defense that is not a stance and lasts 10 minutes which my DM allows me to keep up with by telling him I recast it as needed to maintain it.
We are doing a modified against the giants, so I have run into frost giants and that was party time. I have fought some Fire giants and that can be rough. You can use Extract elements on them, but I mostly relied on Earth blasts.
I've done things a few ways:
1. Versatile blasts allowing fire to do cold which activates cold weaknesses.
2. Thermal Nimbus cold which passively eats up creatures with weaknesses. You can do cold or fire which Thermal Nimbus which covers you for 99% of situations.
3. I built up my Fire/Earth guy with a decent Strength, 18 at level 12 starting at 14. I picked up Weapon Infusion and since my kineticist is a close combat Kin, I use earth blasts with weapon infusion thrown gaining strength bonus to damage.
I mainly rely on Flying Flame due to its ability to be used while PCs are engaged. Solar Detonation is his big dog ability. When he is able to use it, it really hammers stuff.
I also have Lava Leap so I can leap into battle with a fair defense.
I have Burning Jet if I have to move around in three dimensions a bit.
I would recommend picking up Safe Elements as its almost a required feat for kineticist using AoE damage. It's an additional action tax you can't use with a 3 action impulse, but if you are using AoE 2 action impulses a lot, Safe elements is a must.
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Scrap Barricade is 3 actions. Unless your DM allows you to walk around with your aura active all the timeWith reference to earlier discussion in this thread, I don’t see why Kineticists wouldn’t have their aura active as a general rule, and as a GM, I don’t see much, if any, reason to disallow this.As a GM I feel like it's important to not limit or allow the Kineticist to do things in noncombat situations that other classes aren't allowed to do (other than "use impulses.") Like any time you're walking around with your aura up, it will be read by NPCs similarly to "you are walking around with a bow with an arrow nocked". So it's something you're not going to want to do, like, at a garden party or during market day. You can technically walk around with a weapon at the ready 100% of the time, but people will think you're a maniac when you do it at the library.
Similarly the "10 minute, don't need your aura up" impulses (like armor and earth) are fair to just maintain any time the fighter would be walking around in plate mail. But you're already at an advantage in that you can put on your armor faster than other people can if the garden party is beset by hordes of the undead, so you don't really need more than that.
Monk
Animal Barbarian
All casters
Not that many "other classes" left.
I don't mind them having the aura active as a DM, especially if expecting trouble. It's obviously going to prevent things like Avoid Notice and such exploration activities. It's not a zero cost activity.
It does devalue feats that allow you to do open Kinetic Auras quickly. Stances cannot be used except in encounter mode I thought. I don't usually allow auras to activated unless they scout and it's only a few rounds.
I don't mind them having the aura active as a DM, especially if expecting trouble. It's obviously going to prevent things like Avoid Notice and such exploration activities. It's not a zero cost activity.
It does devalue feats that allow you to do open Kinetic Auras quickly. Stances cannot be used except in encounter mode I thought. I don't usually allow auras to activated unless they scout and it's only a few rounds.
Even that is debatable based on the element.
I mean, Air gives a bonus to Stealth while the Aura is active, I can't possibly think that the intent is to "you gain a bonus to stealth while your aura is active but you can't stealth".
Air would probably be ok, especially if you have the Stealth Skill bonus. I allow that as a DM. It's all a bit of a DM fiat.
I wouldn't allow fire or metal or earth or water with those elements floating 10 feet around you at a minimum. Air is the only one I would likely allow mainly due to the stealth skill bonus Silent breeze I guess.
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Like any time you're walking around with your aura up, it will be read by NPCs similarly to "you are walking around with a bow with an arrow nocked". So it's something you're not going to want to do, like, at a garden party or during market day.
Sure, but “as a general rule,” PCs in my campaign aren’t at garden parties or markets. I’m running Kingmaker at the moment, so most of the time they’re running around in the wilderness. When they’re not running around in the wilderness they adjust their behavior accordingly.
When we haven’t explicitly discussed it, there have been plenty of instances in which I’ve said “you wouldn’t have had your weapon drawn, plenty in which the first PC to act in a combat has said “I wouldn’t have had my weapon drawn and everyone follows suit, and even a few where the first player to act has opened a discussion among the players about the question.
I don't mind them having the aura active as a DM, especially if expecting trouble. It's obviously going to prevent things like Avoid Notice and such exploration activities. It's not a zero cost activity.
It does devalue feats that allow you to do open Kinetic Auras quickly. Stances cannot be used except in encounter mode I thought. I don't usually allow auras to activated unless they scout and it's only a few rounds.
Even that is debatable based on the element.
I mean, Air gives a bonus to Stealth while the Aura is active, I can't possibly think that the intent is to "you gain a bonus to stealth while your aura is active but you can't stealth".
Air would probably be ok, especially if you have the Stealth Skill bonus. I allow that as a DM. It's all a bit of a DM fiat.
I wouldn't allow fire or metal or earth or water with those elements floating 10 feet around you at a minimum. Air is the only one I would likely allow mainly due to the stealth skill bonus Silent breeze I guess.
Theoretically you can use stealth (or thievery I'm not so sure) to suppress all noticeable effects of your aura not only the air (so an earth/air kineticist will try to suppress the sand and rocks that usually spins around of you) in a similar way that an assassin usually hides it's dagger when sneaking around (but this maybe enter into deception area too but IMO deception is more about to make the targets believes that the aura effect not comes from you or are a natural thing, not that you are trying hide things).
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All you are illustrating is this is GM fiat. The player wants to keep their aura active, the GM decides how that works in the world including not allowing Stealth to work.
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As a player, I find Clear as Air's discussion frustratingly unhelpful. If you activate your kinetic aura, the impulse conceals its elements,
though any special effects of your aura might give away your location. So the intent really seems to be to let Air kineticists have the invisibility on while aura is up, without nerfing the invisibility. But then you get to the "though..." and it seems to contradict what it just said. The aura doesn't give you away, but the aura's effects can? How is that any different from 'the aura gives you away?' Who decides what special effects your aura has - the GM, or the player? Game text intended perhaps to stop disagreement just shifted it to a different disagreement.
I read that as your basic aura is invisible.
A "special effect" would be Desert Winds, which has "Each creature inside your kinetic aura", and would make it pretty obvious where the center of it is.
So you can't just hide with Thermal Nimbus running and expect enemies to just die without finding you.
All you are illustrating is this is GM fiat. The player wants to keep their aura active, the GM decides how that works in the world including not allowing Stealth to work.
The problem it was like said before this will break the Air skill junction. That's why I'm not sure it's so GM fiat to choose to broke one of the kineticist options because don't want to allow the kineticist to suppress the noticeable effects of its aura or that arbitrary limits the aura duration.
A skill junction makes you trained in the listed skill and grants you the listed skill feat. If you were already trained in the listed skill, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. While your kinetic aura is active, you gain a +1 status bonus to the listed skill; the bonus increases to +2 at 10th level and +3 at 17th level.
Skill Junction Stealth, Experienced Smuggler
As a player, I find Clear as Air's discussion frustratingly unhelpful. If you activate your kinetic aura, the impulse conceals its elements,
though any special effects of your aura might give away your location. So the intent really seems to be to let Air kineticists have the invisibility on while aura is up, without nerfing the invisibility. But then you get to the "though..." and it seems to contradict what it just said. The aura doesn't give you away, but the aura's effects can? How is that any different from 'the aura gives you away?' Who decides what special effects your aura has - the GM, or the player? Game text intended perhaps to stop disagreement just shifted it to a different disagreement.I read that as your basic aura is invisible.
A "special effect" would be Desert Winds, which has "Each creature inside your kinetic aura", and would make it pretty obvious where the center of it is.
So you can't just hide with Thermal Nimbus running and expect enemies to just die without finding you.
The basic aura is not really invisible it gives some minor notable effects and usually is defined by you:
Through your kinetic gate, elements flow from an elemental plane to orbit your person. The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you. Examples include a chaotic wind orbiting the body, fragments of floating gravel, colorful wicks of flame, stars of raw metal always changing shape, floating snowflakes, or splinters dancing in the air. If you can channel more than one element, pieces of all your kinetic elements appear in the aura.
The point is this is really have to affect gameplay like prevent a non-clear as air kineticist to try hide its aura? Would not better just to consider it doesn't having nuisances to gameplay and roleplay once that all other classes usually doesn't have to deal with this and the rules expects that kineticists are able to keep their aura enable effortlessly all day long?
All you are illustrating is this is GM fiat. The player wants to keep their aura active, the GM decides how that works in the world including not allowing Stealth to work.The problem it was like said before this will break the Air skill junction. That's why I'm not sure it's so GM fiat to choose to broke one of the kineticist options because don't want to allow the kineticist to suppress the noticeable effects of its aura or that arbitrary limits the aura duration.
A skill junction makes you trained in the listed skill and grants you the listed skill feat. If you were already trained in the listed skill, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. While your kinetic aura is active, you gain a +1 status bonus to the listed skill; the bonus increases to +2 at 10th level and +3 at 17th level.Skill Junction Stealth, Experienced Smuggler
That is what helps guide the GM decision making.
It's pretty clear that if someone walks around with their aura up, the gate is open and the material is floating around them. If the designers did not mean for that to interfere with skill actions like Stealth or Invis or what not, they should have made that pretty clear.
Auras are open gates to elemental planes. There is clearly a visible effect. People wanting to walk around all the time with an elemental aura up while using avoid notice seems like an abuse of an ability.
They built the gate from the ground up to be used with stances and elemental blasts for no action cost. It seems to me they mostly meant for them to be down between combats or using it for some useful activity.
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If the designers did not mean for that to interfere with skill actions like Stealth or Invis or what not, they should have made that pretty clear.
I mean, flip that around for a second.
If an ability was intended to wholesale prevent you from using certain actions, shouldn't it be important to mention that somewhere?
No one's assuming you can't concentrate while raging or cast spells in a battle form, stuff like that is written into the ability. Point of fact is that, outside some reminder text examples, abilities don't tell you when they don't prevent you from doing something.