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I must admit I'm puzzled by the Kineticist.
Some GMs are "downplaying" its drawbacks. I've seen Kineticists with their gate opened during social situations for example and without that some options would be extremely bad (like the armors).
Also, the Kineticist has a lot of pain points: against Will-o-wisps and Golems it literally can't do anything, high level Fiends must be hard to fight due to their bonus to saves and obviously there are the enemies with resistances/weaknesses against your elements (as Extract Element is hardly a solution).
And the class has nearly nothing for out of combat.
Overall, I like the feel of the class but I have the impression there are too many frustrating moments to my taste. As I said, I'm puzzled by the class, I want to like it but I fail at liking it.
Will-o-wisps would be tough since they made a blanket rule that all their abilities count as spell. Not sure it was intentional with will-o-wisps, we'll see if that changes with the Remaster getting rid of immunity to spells or damage resistance against spells.
They don't have a lot out of combat.
The are a bit like a fighter that uses elemental powers.
Armors do not need the gate to be opened to be sustained. So you only need to open the gate for 2 seconds to don it and it stays for 10minutes.
Fair point. Still, going to the toilets every 10 minutes is a serious impediment in many social situations. You can't always have your gate opened easily.
I don't consider that the armor is the issue, but the gate (it's a fantasy world, many people are having weird equipment).Some elements do have out of combat stuff to do, mostly scouting and mobility related, but indeed, like the fighter or the barbarian, it is a class more inclined for combat encounters rather than a class designed for exploration stuff.
But there are much more possibilities for a Fighter/Barbarian to be impactful outside combat. Constitution as main attribute is the worst you can have for skills and you have a strong need of Strength and/or Dexterity so you can't really choose to increase Charisma or Intelligence, unlike Fighter and even Barbarian (if they get their hand on a Full Plate).
And then, your feats are extremely important as they are your Impulses when Fighter and Barbarian have more power in their class than in their feats and as such can grab Dedications for out of combat abilities. Of course, the issue is reduced in FA games.
Actually, Attribute wise they are as free to choose INt/Cha as a tetriary. In fact, more free than most other classes.
Yes, tertiary but not secondary. When most classes can have Int/Cha/Wis as secondary without much issue (only Monk is really constrained in attributes). So overall, Kineticist is the weakest class at skills (maybe tied with Monk even if their issues are different).
I had a droplist somewhere here in the forums, only around 1/3 classes can choose tertiaries without sacrificing one of the saving throw stats.
I think we are not speaking about the same thing. Anyway, it's not really important. I don't think anyone will consider the Kineticist to be good at skills.
Otherwise, as this thread is about experience, I had a lot of experience with Kineticist... as DM or fellow player, mostly at low level (PFS). As Kineticist is the new black, I've played (from memory) with 2 Wood Kineticists, one Fire/Earth, one Earth, one Metal and one Air. Overall, I've found them to be pretty lackluster. Out of combat impact was minimal, and combat impact was low. They were clearly outdamaged by martials. Their utility powers were so limited in number that they were one-trick poneys desperately trying to justify their powers (like the Air Kineticist moving everyone all the time... to no avail as movement is rarely that important).
Reading the class, I feel that it is extremely hard to build and play, which may be the reason why all these players were rather bad with it. I feel you can too easily end up with a build that "will be strong as soon as I have a few more levels". If I had to build an optimized martial/caster hybrid, I'd go for Magus, Summoner or even Inventor over Kineticist any time. But as I like challenges I may one day play a Kineticist and see what I can do with it. But it'll certainly be an abusively optimized build as I don't see how a basic build can be competitive.
Well, PF2E is a very high magic and high fantasy setting. The GM decides what that means socially, but honestly if wizards are walking around with lights floating around their head and all the townsfolk don't bat an eye, Summoners are walking around with dragon eidolons and all the townsfolk don't bat an eye, witches have their familiars, etc. I can't see why the GM would unduly 'socially punish' the kineticist by saying their aura causes lots of negative social consequences. IMO it's not "15th century Earth, but with superpowers." People aren't typically running screaming from the witch. At least, that's not the way I'd play it. Of course, you CAN play the setting more realistic and say ALL of those things are "not acceptable in town." But then, shouldn't you also be having 'walking armory' Champions and Fighters take off their plate and leave most of their weaponry with the horses? Why would the townsfolk treat Armor in Earth girl any different from breastplate-wearing Champion girl?
Even if there's some initial suspicion, I think a good GM could add in some opportunistic chances to shine. Townie sees a water kineticist walking down the street? Ask them to refill your rain barrel and have a positive reaction if they do. Etc.
I consider that casting spells in public or drawing one's weapons are overt signs of agression to most people. As opening your gate is similar to both of these abilities (it's magical and it technically opens offensive options) I consider that people react negatively to it. So, yes, the magical girl can have her armor... until it dissipates and then she no more has it.
If your experience is mostly at low levels, then that makes sense. Kineticists really need 5-7 levels to get going. And unlike regular casters they don't have something like magic weapon or illusory object to carry their weight through the early game.
As for the aura, it's like a martial having their weapon drawn. Maybe the healing elements might get a pass but I wouldn't assume you can just leave it on without getting looked at suspiciously.
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Actually, Attribute wise they are as free to choose INt/Cha as a tetriary. In fact, more free than most other classes.Yes, tertiary but not secondary. When most classes can have Int/Cha/Wis as secondary without much issue (only Monk is really constrained in attributes). So overall, Kineticist is the weakest class at skills (maybe tied with Monk even if their issues are different).Not really though.
I had a droplist somewhere here in the forums, only around 1/3 classes can choose tertiaries without sacrificing one of the saving throw stats.
Apart from tertiary, as I pointed out, they can have it as high as a secondary attribute without any effort at all, achieving a 16 at level 5.
So stat wise they aren't actually behind a fighter/barbarian on skill checks.
Edit:
As far as dedications are concerned, I find that "your class feats are better than dedications" a very hard thing to be viewed as a downside.
It's not that Kineticist can't grab those, it's simply that his class feats are so much stronger than them.
But if one wants to go for an exploration based dedication, they certainly can, they still get their free impulses every so often.
Class feats are not enhancers of the Kineticist's power though. They ARE the Kineticist's power.
Martials get their improved Strikes and damage features without investing class feats. Ditto for casters and spells.
Not so the Kineticist.
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I consider that casting spells in public or drawing one's weapons are overt signs of agression to most people. As opening your gate is similar to both of these abilities (it's magical and it technically opens offensive options) I consider that people react negatively to it. So, yes, the magical girl can have her armor... until it dissipates and then she no more has it.
For starters, I don't think that we should be deciding for all GMs how to play their NPCs in their own game. They can choose their own lore and narrative and what is typical and expected behavior. You can certainly have your own games run with Kineticist gate open being a hostile action, but there is no rule requiring that.
As for narratively justifying a Kineticist having their gate open without being automatically considered hostile...
How do you in-game tell the difference between a Tempest Oracle just existing and a Water/Air Kineticist with their gate open? How about a Sorcerer casting Prestidigitation for entertainment value?
And that isn't even getting into polearm weapons that really can't be stowed IRL, yet somehow are in-game.
And being armed isn't considered hostile on its own - even if the weapons are stowed? That honestly doesn't seem plausible to me considering how I see people react to armed open-carry citizens IRL.
I think there is plenty of wiggle room in a high fantasy setting for having obvious signs of magic in an aura around you to be considered standard behavior and not hostile behavior.
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I consider that casting spells in public or drawing one's weapons are overt signs of agression to most people. As opening your gate is similar to both of these abilities (it's magical and it technically opens offensive options) I consider that people react negatively to it. So, yes, the magical girl can have her armor... until it dissipates and then she no more has it.Well, PF2E is a very high magic and high fantasy setting. The GM decides what that means socially, but honestly if wizards are walking around with lights floating around their head and all the townsfolk don't bat an eye, Summoners are walking around with dragon eidolons and all the townsfolk don't bat an eye, witches have their familiars, etc. I can't see why the GM would unduly 'socially punish' the kineticist by saying their aura causes lots of negative social consequences. IMO it's not "15th century Earth, but with superpowers." People aren't typically running screaming from the witch. At least, that's not the way I'd play it. Of course, you CAN play the setting more realistic and say ALL of those things are "not acceptable in town." But then, shouldn't you also be having 'walking armory' Champions and Fighters take off their plate and leave most of their weaponry with the horses? Why would the townsfolk treat Armor in Earth girl any different from breastplate-wearing Champion girl?
Even if there's some initial suspicion, I think a good GM could add in some opportunistic chances to shine. Townie sees a water kineticist walking down the street? Ask them to refill your rain barrel and have a positive reaction if they do. Etc.
You don't need to activate your aura in front of people though. It lasts until you are unconscious, you dismiss it or you use an overflow impulse.
So, you enter the room surrounded by funny bits of Elements that just do nothing to people or objects. Sounds fanciful rather than dangerous.
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If your experience is mostly at low levels, then that makes sense. Kineticists really need 5-7 levels to get going. And unlike regular casters they don't have something like magic weapon or illusory object to carry their weight through the early game.
As for the aura, it's like a martial having their weapon drawn. Maybe the healing elements might get a pass but I wouldn't assume you can just leave it on without getting looked at suspiciously.
What should we do about Monks then ? Or Animal Barbarians ?
What should we do about Monks then ? Or Animal Barbarians ?If your experience is mostly at low levels, then that makes sense. Kineticists really need 5-7 levels to get going. And unlike regular casters they don't have something like magic weapon or illusory object to carry their weight through the early game.
As for the aura, it's like a martial having their weapon drawn. Maybe the healing elements might get a pass but I wouldn't assume you can just leave it on without getting looked at suspiciously.
Or spellcasters that can pull off a Cantrip or other spell for two actions with no advanced warning at all?
Including Kineticist that can open their gate and throw out an Elemental Blast as a surprise one action attack.
If your experience is mostly at low levels, then that makes sense. Kineticists really need 5-7 levels to get going.
But do they really work once they get to these levels?
Or is it an infinite arms race where you always feel underequiped?
But Flying Flame: 1d6 to a large number of enemies (and without a risk of harming allies) for 2 actions certainly seems like plenty of damage to me. What other level 1 character is going to be doing more than that?Watch your path with that. It only goes 30 feet and it will fry your allies if you can't draw that line without going through them. That includes yourself. If you need to hit targets on each side of you - chances are you will also be hitting yourself.
ZZZ
XYX
ZZZ- If you are Y and need to hit X and X, and the Z's are your allies or walls, you're hitting yourself as well, or at least one Z if it's not an obstruction.
Remember that Flying Flame can fly! In these cases if you don't need to move it a long distance just make it fly over you and your allies. So it's pretty easily to avoid FF with it. It's main problem is just the distance that's pretty short to do too many deviations.
For starters, I don't think that we should be deciding for all GMs how to play their NPCs in their own game. They can choose their own lore and narrative and what is typical and expected behavior. You can certainly have your own games run with Kineticist gate open being a hostile action, but there is no rule requiring that.
As for narratively justifying a Kineticist having their gate open without being automatically considered hostile...
How do you in-game tell the difference between a Tempest Oracle just existing and a Water/Air Kineticist with their gate open? How about a Sorcerer casting Prestidigitation for entertainment value?
And that isn't even getting into polearm weapons that really can't be stowed IRL, yet somehow are in-game.
And being armed isn't considered hostile on its own - even if the weapons are stowed? That honestly doesn't seem plausible to me considering how I see people react to armed open-carry citizens IRL.
I think there is plenty of wiggle room in a high fantasy setting for having obvious signs of magic in an aura around you to be considered standard behavior and not hostile behavior.
Around most tables I've played in:
- Drawing one's weapons was an overt sign of agression.- Casting spells was an overt sign of agression (unless you were somehow taking a lot of precaution to tell people it's no harmful spell).
Having a kinetic aura active is similar to drawing one's weapons. Using an Impulse similar to casting a spell.
How do you in-game tell the difference between a Tempest Oracle just existing and a Water/Air Kineticist with their gate open? How about a Sorcerer casting Prestidigitation for entertainment value?
I consider that my Oracle personal tempest (as I happen to play one) is unsettling to most people and definitely affects my social relationships negatively. That's the whole concept of a "curse".
You don't need to activate your aura in front of people though. It lasts until you are unconscious, you dismiss it or you use an overflow impulse.
So, you enter the room surrounded by funny bits of Elements that just do nothing to people or objects. Sounds fanciful rather than dangerous.
And then you cast an Impulse and people freak out?
Because your Armor only lasts 10 minutes.
Around most tables I've played in:
- Drawing one's weapons was an overt sign of agression.
- Casting spells was an overt sign of agression (unless you were somehow taking a lot of precaution to tell people it's no harmful spell).Having a kinetic aura active is similar to drawing one's weapons. Using an Impulse similar to casting a spell.
That seems mechanically inaccurate to me.
Having the Kinetic gate open is not equivalent to casting a spell or an Impulse. It is more similar to obviously having a weapon than drawing and brandishing one.
So by that reasoning, a Fighter with a Longsword belted at their hip should also be considered hostile and be negatively affected socially. Because who knows if that Fighter has Quick Draw or not.
The action cost to cast a one-action Elemental Blast is the same whether the gate is open or not.
You can use Channel Elements and open the gate without casting anything.
For magic immune creatures, they are a pain indeed, although you can usually do other stuff when they pop out, like support impulses or maneuvers or such, but yeah, overall they are a pain.
Yet it's not like we don't have a collection of a physical resistant creatures. Extract Element basically turns the creatures that are immunes to your element into the same situation where a fighter needs to deal with a creature resistant do physical damage. Also it's pretty common that many kineticists get more than one element what usually gives different damage types to them.
The only big problem stays is for creatures that don't have your elemental trait but have damage type (usually fire only) immunity and you can use this element only. But hope that this will be solved by Monster Core where we expect that Golems and Wisps won't be rewrite in the same way like they are in OGL.
Similarly to martials, the "power" comes from auto updating your free Impulses that you get for free.
Additional Impulses give more tools, but they don't give more power. (Level 18 being the notable exception)
The free Impulses you get at 5/9/13/17 plus your level 18 feat are enough if you simply want to keep your few tools updated.
Unlike spells, you don't need to keep getting more impulses to keep being relevant.
As an example, a fire Kineticist that grabs Flying flame+jet at 1, and then picks up Stance at 5, and then an overflow at 9, and etc, is not "weaker" than one that spends his level 2/4/6/8 feats for more Impulses. Like a martial not picking class/combat feats, he simply has less tools.
If you grab a Stance, you'll certainly need both Safe Elements and Aura Shaping. Also, you must have multiple elements to face Immunities (as Extract Elements is far from solving the issue). You should have utility abilities if you want to be useful against Golems and Will-o-Wisps. And having at least an Overflow and a non-Overflow attack Impulse (as Elemental Blast won't carry your damage). And even if the low level Impulses grow with your level, they are very far from following the progression of new Impulses.
So, I'm not sure it's that simple to build a functional Kineticist without taking a lot of class feats. Maybe you can retrain your low level Impulse feats for Dedication feats, I haven't really looked at that.
That seems mechanically inaccurate to me.
Having the Kinetic gate open is not equivalent to casting a spell or an Impulse. It is more similar to obviously having a weapon than drawing and brandishing one.
No. It's like having drawn your weapon. Having your weapon at your belt is like having the ability to open a kinetic gate but not doing it (both cost one action, it's mechanically super similar).
The action cost to cast a one-action Elemental Blast is the same whether the gate is open or not.
For pure Kineticists only. Dedication exists. And it limits you to Elemental Blast which is your weak power.
You can use Channel Elements and open the gate without casting anything.
Same as drawing a weapon. Still I don't see anyone considering that "neutral".
Anyway: If you play a Kineticist, talk with your GM about how they consider having your Kinetic Aura. Considering that it's ok socially is far from obvious. And I feel a lot of players are considering it's fine without talking with their GM (because it's better for them, obviously).
I don't consider that the armor is the issue, but the gate (it's a fantasy world, many people are having weird equipment).
I don't know if the gate open is more problematic than carry a weapon. Also in fantasy worlds where spell casters can casts with their bare hands I feel like that many non-casters prefer to walk with their weapons with them most of time except in some noble social events where carry weapons could be offensive and the place usually is surrounded by a guard.
In this situation Kineticist usually have the same spellcaster advantage instead. They cannot be separated from their "weapons" and with a single action you are able to activate your aura and blast.
Anyway: If you play a Kineticist, talk with your GM about how they consider having your Kinetic Aura. Considering that it's ok socially is far from obvious. And I feel a lot of players are considering it's fine without talking with their GM (because it's better for them, obviously).
That is all I am arguing for.
Well, almost all.
Similarly, if you are going to GM for a Kineticist (or apparently Oracle) player, talk with them about how you are going to run this. Having their character be considered hostile for doing their normal thing is very likely to be seen as a pretty character-crippling nerf (especially for the Oracle that is CHA based and is otherwise quite suitable for being party face and such). Considering that there is no stated rule that having Kinetic Gate open impacts their social skills.
Having their character be considered hostile for doing their normal thing
No, I don't have to tell the player that channelling energy in a 10-foot aura around them so they can blast freely is considered hostile. It is hostile. Please stop painting a clearly hostile action in a non-hostile one: the Kineticist is not Channeling Elements for anything but combat.
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No, I don't have to tell the player that channelling energy in a 10-foot aura around them so they can blast freely is considered hostile. It is hostile.
The rules don't say that. So if you want that to be the expectation in your games, then yes. You do in fact have to tell your players that.
Reminder of the game's definition of Hostile Action. If the action itself does not cause harm, then the action is not hostile. Channel Elements does not cause damage or any other direct harm. Drawing a weapon is not hostile either.
Drawing a weapon is not hostile either.
Still, everyone treats it as hostile.
If you perform an action that allows you to attack people, expect people to react negatively because it's hostile (not the game term, the English term).
the Kineticist is not Channeling Elements for anything but combat.
Eternal Torch is so much more hostile and combat centric than the Light Cantrip is.
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Drawing a weapon is not hostile either.Still, everyone treats it as hostile.
It feels like you are avoiding the point. Not just that you are missing it.
The game rules don't say that drawing a weapon is hostile. Or that holding a drawn weapon is going to impact your ability to use your Diplomacy skill.
Often, players will consider drawing a weapon to be a social blunder - though that might still not have any game mechanics impact.
But the reason for that is because of our IRL familiarity with armed people.
We have no familiarity with magic IRL. So the hostile nature of having magic obviously available is much less obvious. We have no intuitive understanding of how that is going to impact someone socially if they have a storm brewing over their head constantly.
And again, you really shouldn't be trying to enforce your own flavor and narrative on everyone else when the rules don't back that up.
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The build I mentioned uses those impulses till level 20.
Notably, the nonoverflow damaging impulses are almost exclusively low level. And you can pick the higher damage overflows with the free level 9/13/17 impulses.
Fire stance doesn't need Safe elements, it's ally friendly.
Aura shaping is indeed very nice, but not "nicer" than Improved Knockdown as an example.
There's a distinctive difference between spending feats on an archetype and spending every single class feat on an archetype.
I guarantee you, as a fighter, or as a barbarian, you still want to pick a few class feats regardless. Same goes for Kineticist.
Yes, you are certainly right. When I look at all the Impulses I want to take many of them, but actually they are not all necessary to have a valid Kineticist.
Maybe I should see how to build a Kineticist without taking too many Kineticist feats, it may be an interesting angle to look at the class.
Wood: Defense, Protection, healing, low-damageTo quibble, none of them are really 'low damage,' in that literally every element gets a 2-3 action, overflow impulse which is AoE and which tops out at about the same 40-50 average DPR at level 20. In fact all the elements except Air get one of those at or before level 4, while air gets theirs at 8. Plus, they all get the same EB (though some elements have combo impulse ways to boost it that others don't).
If you don't want to spend a lot of 'tactical thought' on build choices, the elements are still very solidly balanced in terms of doing damage in combat, and you CAN get to almost the same damage with every element, without much trying. With fire, you can get more than the other five, sure. But that's fire's main thing. :)
When I write low-damage it's not like the damage is low just that the DPR output is lower than other elements.
Fire get a higher damage output primary due its Impulse Junction + Aura Junction + Thermal Nimbus that why I consider it as a higher DPR output when compared to the other elements.Earth have some pretty strong due Tremor and The Shattered Mountain Weeps and a d8 blast that's together makes a good damage output.
Metal I admit that it's more end-game due Hell of 1,000,000 Needles that pretty strong and also is a d8 blast element.
Air get's a good DPR due 2 Aerial Boomerangs + Desert Wind is a pretty strong DPR but at same time requires too many aspect to be met (the creature is inside your aura and don't have an ally or an obstacle between you and your target) and it's a d6 blast so I just considered it as a normal DPR.
I need to correct me with water because I ignored how good Ride the Tsunami is due it's AoE and dmg and that Tidal Hands also have a good dmg output (but a bit FF risky) and still a d8 blast element.
But I still considerer wood as low dmg (low DPR) because even having d8 blasts they don't get a dmg bonus like fire get with the aura weakness (and the constant thermal nimbus damage) nor a Desert Wind like boost and lacks of a strong dmg impulse at any level (the most stronger ones have an interesting initial dmg but have a pretty bad heightening).
If your experience is mostly at low levels, then that makes sense. Kineticists really need 5-7 levels to get going.But do they really work once they get to these levels?
Or is it an infinite arms race where you always feel underequiped?
I would say they need those levels to begin functioning like you'd want them to. First die size increase to basic blast. Fire has all its primary damage enhancement tools. Air/earth gets their damage stance and have enough move speed to reliably land double boomerang. Earth/wood gets berms. Wood and metal pick up their walls. And so on. From there you start picking up other things like infinite invisibility/concealment, infinite flight, blah, blah, blah.
Though I question which classes aren't running the arms race to build up more and/or stronger options. It's not like other classes aren't relying on feats to empower themselves. Magi get their spike at 6 with psychic IW. 6 is where AoO lives and where champ archetype offers the reaction. Thieves have a pretty blatant power curve going from gang up to opportune backstab to debilitations to preparation at 6-12. Fighters get access to all manner of good stuff at 10-12 which serves as a nice power spike for many builds. You could go on all day with this sort of thing.
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Drawing a weapon is not hostile either.Still, everyone treats it as hostile.
If you perform an action that allows you to attack people, expect people to react negatively because it's hostile (not the game term, the English term).
What about a Monk entering a Stance ?
Or an Investigator using Devise a Stratagem ?
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The build I mentioned uses those impulses till level 20.
Notably, the nonoverflow damaging impulses are almost exclusively low level. And you can pick the higher damage overflows with the free level 9/13/17 impulses.
Fire stance doesn't need Safe elements, it's ally friendly.
Aura shaping is indeed very nice, but not "nicer" than Improved Knockdown as an example.
There's a distinctive difference between spending feats on an archetype and spending every single class feat on an archetype.
I guarantee you, as a fighter, or as a barbarian, you still want to pick a few class feats regardless. Same goes for Kineticist.
Yes, you are certainly right. When I look at all the Impulses I want to take many of them, but actually they are not all necessary to have a valid Kineticist.
Maybe I should see how to build a Kineticist without taking too many Kineticist feats, it may be an interesting angle to look at the class.
I would be really interested at seeing the result. When rebuilding my Kineticist, it was very very tempting to make him Human just to get another class feat (aka power that keeps on improving).
If your experience is mostly at low levels, then that makes sense. Kineticists really need 5-7 levels to get going. And unlike regular casters they don't have something like magic weapon or illusory object to carry their weight through the early game.
I agree with illusory object for creative casters but magic weapon it's just a save money spell. You can easy get a +1 weapon with a martial (OK still don't get the Strike rune effect before level 4) or a Gate Attenuator when you reach level 3. But what's really shines its that you have the combination of a Save Impulse + Blast since level 1. With a few exceptions like Psychic that can use a Focus Spell/Cantrip + Psi Burst starting from level 2 and also got some bonus due Unleash, usually to compete with the same DPR casters need a weapon like a shorbow thats usually also requires some proficiency improvement feat and also don't uses you key stat (you can also cast a single action Magic Missile or an Elemental Toss if you are an elemental sorcerer but this requires you to use your limited resources).
So I can't consider that kineticists really needs 5-7 levels to get going. You may be not so strong as a martial but you are pretty competitive with casters in lowest levels.
As for the aura, it's like a martial having their weapon drawn. Maybe the healing elements might get a pass but I wouldn't assume you can just leave it on without getting looked at suspiciously.
I completely agree here.
the Kineticist is not Channeling Elements for anything but combat.Eternal Torch is so much more hostile and combat centric than the Light Cantrip is.
Also you need your aura to be able to heal people with water/wood elements.
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For starters, I don't think that we should be deciding for all GMs how to play their NPCs in their own game. They can choose their own lore and narrative and what is typical and expected behavior. You can certainly have your own games run with Kineticist gate open being a hostile action, but there is no rule requiring that.
As for narratively justifying a Kineticist having their gate open without being automatically considered hostile...
How do you in-game tell the difference between a Tempest Oracle just existing and a Water/Air Kineticist with their gate open? How about a Sorcerer casting Prestidigitation for entertainment value?
And that isn't even getting into polearm weapons that really can't be stowed IRL, yet somehow are in-game.
And being armed isn't considered hostile on its own - even if the weapons are stowed? That honestly doesn't seem plausible to me considering how I see people react to armed open-carry citizens IRL.
I think there is plenty of wiggle room in a high fantasy setting for having obvious signs of magic in an aura around you to be considered standard behavior and not hostile behavior.
Around most tables I've played in:
- Drawing one's weapons was an overt sign of agression.
- Casting spells was an overt sign of agression (unless you were somehow taking a lot of precaution to tell people it's no harmful spell).Having a kinetic aura active is similar to drawing one's weapons. Using an Impulse similar to casting a spell.
How do you in-game tell the difference between a Tempest Oracle just existing and a Water/Air Kineticist with their gate open? How about a Sorcerer casting Prestidigitation for entertainment value?I consider that my Oracle personal tempest (as I happen to play one) is unsettling to most people and definitely affects my social relationships negatively. That's the whole concept of a
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Armor in Earth is an Armor class buff. You should still be wearing armor or using some kind of armor runes as Armor in Earth takes on the property of your armor runes when you use it suppressing your regular armor.
There is no real need to wear Armor of Earth all the time. Not sure why you would. You wear your regular armor and activate armor of Earth when you need to for a 1 AC boost or higher depending on your Dex.
Armor of Earth is more of a means for a +1 AC boost for a Kineticist with a maxed out Dex or a way to dump Dex if you want to rely on the heavy armor Armor of Earth eventually provides.
There is no reason to have it active all the time. Activate when you need it. Not sure why this is even being discussed for an impulse that doesn't replace wearing normal armor and is more of an AC buff than a replacement.
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Our local PFS tables have ruled that having your aura up is inappropriate for social situations.
We allow keeping your aura up in exploration mode, but then that is your exploration activity (similar to "repeatedly casting a spell")
The class was completely desgined around not needing your aura up at all times, since you get free blasts/stances when you activate it. My earth kineticist prefers to keep her shield raised in exploration mode rather than keeping her gate up. It's not an issue.
(I also prefer to walk around in my "Dwarven pajamas" (ie padded armor) rather than keeping the Stone up, but that's more about rp -- if other people are wearing armor, there's no problem with the stone armor, although it will slow you down quite a bit.)
I tend to view the kineticist aura as a party trick. It may put people off at first activation, but people probably enjoy it after a time.
Fire keeps people warm.
Metal lets you create common metals and I guess make things? Need some regular iron to turn into steel to make a sword, there you go.
Water can fill up people's cups or keep them from getting thirsty.
Air activate a nice cool breeze.
Earth conjure up some stone for anything you might need. A bit of rock for building a common wall.
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I tend to view the kineticist aura as a party trick. It may put people off at first activation, but people probably enjoy it after a time.
Fire keeps people warm.
Metal lets you create common metals and I guess make things? Need some regular iron to turn into steel to make a sword, there you go.
Water can fill up people's cups or keep them from getting thirsty.
Air activate a nice cool breeze.
Earth conjure up some stone for anything you might need. A bit of rock for building a common wall.
I agree with the party trick thing but it is only cosmetics. The uses you mention necessitate specific actions.
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Our local PFS tables have ruled that having your aura up is inappropriate for social situations.
We allow keeping your aura up in exploration mode, but then that is your exploration activity (similar to "repeatedly casting a spell")
The class was completely desgined around not needing your aura up at all times, since you get free blasts/stances when you activate it. My earth kineticist prefers to keep her shield raised in exploration mode rather than keeping her gate up. It's not an issue.
(I also prefer to walk around in my "Dwarven pajamas" (ie padded armor) rather than keeping the Stone up, but that's more about rp -- if other people are wearing armor, there's no problem with the stone armor, although it will slow you down quite a bit.)
Keeping your aura active is not an action or an activity though. It requires zero effort and has no set duration.
It is no more strenuous than wearing your armor after you put it on.
And the free blast/stance is mostly there to lessen the impact of using an overflow impulse.
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...We allow keeping your aura up in exploration mode, but then that is your exploration activity (similar to "repeatedly casting a spell") ...Keeping your aura active is not an action or an activity though. It requires zero effort and has no set duration.
It is no more strenuous than wearing your armor after you put it on.
...
By straight rules text that is correct, but that was the ruling we made to reduce table variation. Literally no one has complained about it.
(ETA: It helps of course that most Kineticists are so skill challenged they don't have anything else they'd rather be doing. :) )
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By straight rules text that is correct, but that was the ruling we made to reduce table variation. Literally no one has complained about it....We allow keeping your aura up in exploration mode, but then that is your exploration activity (similar to "repeatedly casting a spell") ...Keeping your aura active is not an action or an activity though. It requires zero effort and has no set duration.
It is no more strenuous than wearing your armor after you put it on.
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So... In PFS setting... You are going to not follow the printed rules... in order to reduce table variation.
And you justify that because no one has complained about it yet.
If I was playing a Wood Kineticist with the Armor and Shield option, I would want to be able to have the armor and shield available and be able to use Scout/Defend as my exploration activity. I would be complaining.
What about a Monk entering a Stance ?
Or an Investigator using Devise a Stratagem ?
Just for the fun of being nitpicky: The Monk can't enter a Stance outside combat. And Devise a Stratagem does nothing outside combat (as it requires "rounds" to work).
Armor in Earth is an Armor class buff. You should still be wearing armor or using some kind of armor runes as Armor in Earth takes on the property of your armor runes when you use it suppressing your regular armor.
If you use the Heavy Armor version we are speaking of +3 AC and +3 to most Reflex saves. It's nearly as much as a Mountain Monk and we know how they hate the first round.
But I agree you should be able to activate your aura before most combats. I was mostly pointing out that GMs were not used to Kineticists and as such some of them were in my opinion being too nice as of now.
I would say they need those levels to begin functioning like you'd want them to. First die size increase to basic blast. Fire has all its primary damage enhancement tools. Air/earth gets their damage stance and have enough move speed to reliably land double boomerang. Earth/wood gets berms. Wood and metal pick up their walls. And so on. From there you start picking up other things like infinite invisibility/concealment, infinite flight, blah, blah, blah.
What classes need a few levels to begin functioning like you'd want them to? I see Alchemist (most builds), Magus and a lot of casters (they need to get to level 5 to finally get good stuff). So, I agree that Kineticists is not the sole class with this issue but in my opinion casters are "paying" low level weakness for high level power and Alchemist is not a class you want to be compared to.
hough I question which classes aren't running the arms race to build up more and/or stronger options. It's not like other classes aren't relying on feats to empower themselves. Magi get their spike at 6 with psychic IW. 6 is where AoO lives and where champ archetype offers the reaction. Thieves have a pretty blatant power curve going from gang up to opportune backstab to debilitations to preparation at 6-12. Fighters get access to all manner of good stuff at 10-12 which serves as a nice power spike for many builds. You could go on all day with this sort of thing.
Most martials are playable right off the bat. Their low level feats are in general rather unimpactful. At level 8 or 10, they start getting the good stuff, but it's not stuff that allows them to work as intended but to build up crazy abilities. I've never built a martial thinking about level 5-8 as the level where they'll start "working". Most of them were working fine immediately, with level 5-8 the levels where I have enough feats for them to look different than their neighbour.
The Kineticists I've seen played were definitely not working as (my vision of) intended. The rest of the party had to "carry" them, especially the martials (as low level casters are in general not as strong as martials). I've even carried a game with my Mutagenist, I was not exactly expecting that for what was supposed to be a second line character.If I was playing a Wood Kineticist with the Armor and Shield option, I would want to be able to have the armor and shield available and be able to use Scout/Defend as my exploration activity. I would be complaining.
I definitely agree with that. It looks like some GMs are also being too harsh with the Kineticist.