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I'm just popping in to second the message of 'why be stingy?'
If someone joined in January and really wanted to play a barbarian, played 3 times, now they don't have an option for rebuild for PC2 without AcP, what's going to encourage them to buy the book?
Does it cost the program something to change the previous ruling to include these classes played in the last 9 months?
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Love to see kholo getting on the freebie list! They're a personal favorite of mine, so I'll probably be making a few.
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I'm just popping in to second the message of 'why be stingy?'
If someone joined in January and really wanted to play a barbarian, played 3 times, now they don't have an option for rebuild for PC2 without AcP, what's going to encourage them to buy the book?
Does it cost the program something to change the previous ruling to include these classes played in the last 9 months?
minor pedantic correction: 4 times, you have to have played it at level 2 to be locked out of rebuild.
But otherwise agreed.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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The remastered Oracle strongly displeases many players who loved going all-in on their Curses and Mysteries and are now supposed to abandon them nearly entirely.
As the original Oracle was having 4 levels of Curse and the remastered Oracle has 4 levels of Cursebound, why not keep both options and just consider that Cursebound level = Curse level? For example, Cursebound 2 = Moderate Curse.
I ask that because I'll certainly just drop my Oracles if I have to use the remaster rules as they are just another flavor of Sorcerer when they used to have a Curse and a Mystery. As you can still play a preremaster Wizard, I don't see why you couldn't play a preremaster Oracle.
I have invested a lot of time and effort on my characters, I'd love to keep playing them (with the same class) ;)
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We made it very clear when we first posted the Remaster Guidelines that characters would not be granted a second rebuild. Players who elected to build characters using classes slated for a remaster should have been aware that they would not be granted a rebuild.
As a data point of one:
Yes, it was clear to me that characters would not get a free second rebuild...
...but it was not at all clear to me that a PC of a non-remastered class, created in the last nine months, would not be eligible for a free first rebuild.
As it happens, I rolled up an alchemist in that intervening timeframe, planning to rebuild upon release of PC2. IIUC I must now spend AcP to rebuild them.
Now ITOT I hoard my AcP as well as any nonmetallic dragon would, and can take the AcP hit just fine – but if I understand it right, I find the situation somewhat irksome.
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The remastered Oracle strongly displeases many players who loved going all-in on their Curses and Mysteries and are now supposed to abandon them nearly entirely.
As the original Oracle was having 4 levels of Curse and the remastered Oracle has 4 levels of Cursebound, why not keep both options and just consider that Cursebound level = Curse level? For example, Cursebound 2 = Moderate Curse.I ask that because I'll certainly just drop my Oracles if I have to use the remaster rules as they are just another flavor of Sorcerer when they used to have a Curse and a Mystery. As you can still play a preremaster Wizard, I don't see why you couldn't play a preremaster Oracle.
I have invested a lot of time and effort on my characters, I'd love to keep playing them (with the same class) ;)
There's no requirement to rebuild, if you have an existing Oracle, you can keep the current, in fact in many situations you're required to keep it unless you purchase a rebuild boon.
I haven't read the new one yet so I'm not sure exactly what problems the redoing of features/names of features does to an existing Oracle. Just the guidance here that they recommend it.
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The remastered Oracle strongly displeases many players who loved going all-in on their Curses and Mysteries and are now supposed to abandon them nearly entirely.
As the original Oracle was having 4 levels of Curse and the remastered Oracle has 4 levels of Cursebound, why not keep both options and just consider that Cursebound level = Curse level? For example, Cursebound 2 = Moderate Curse.I ask that because I'll certainly just drop my Oracles if I have to use the remaster rules as they are just another flavor of Sorcerer when they used to have a Curse and a Mystery. As you can still play a preremaster Wizard, I don't see why you couldn't play a preremaster Oracle.
I have invested a lot of time and effort on my characters, I'd love to keep playing them (with the same class) ;)
There's no requirement to rebuild, if you have an existing Oracle, you can keep the current, in fact in many situations you're required to keep it unless you purchase a rebuild boon.
I haven't read the new one yet so I'm not sure exactly what problems the redoing of features/names of features does to an existing Oracle. Just the guidance here that they recommend it.
You don't have to rebuild, but your Mystery is automatically updated to the new Mystery (and Curse). I'm pretty sure that is what some people with Oracles don't want.
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Not especially surprised that the chromatic/metallic draconic sorcerer options are being phased out, but I can't help but be a bit disappointed.
Had a concept for a blue dragon sorcerer simmering in my head for some time, but no real opportunity to actually build and play it, and neither the Imperial Sky Dragon nor the Primal Cloud Dragon - the only two "lightning" dragons now available - hit the aesthetic I was aiming for...
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You don't have to rebuild, but your Mystery is automatically updated to the new Mystery (and Curse). I'm pretty sure that is what some people with Oracles don't want.The remastered Oracle strongly displeases many players who loved going all-in on their Curses and Mysteries and are now supposed to abandon them nearly entirely.
As the original Oracle was having 4 levels of Curse and the remastered Oracle has 4 levels of Cursebound, why not keep both options and just consider that Cursebound level = Curse level? For example, Cursebound 2 = Moderate Curse.I ask that because I'll certainly just drop my Oracles if I have to use the remaster rules as they are just another flavor of Sorcerer when they used to have a Curse and a Mystery. As you can still play a preremaster Wizard, I don't see why you couldn't play a preremaster Oracle.
I have invested a lot of time and effort on my characters, I'd love to keep playing them (with the same class) ;)
There's no requirement to rebuild, if you have an existing Oracle, you can keep the current, in fact in many situations you're required to keep it unless you purchase a rebuild boon.
I haven't read the new one yet so I'm not sure exactly what problems the redoing of features/names of features does to an existing Oracle. Just the guidance here that they recommend it.
Nonrebuilt Oracles end up with the worst of both worlds. You lose your old curse progression including the passives that were fundamental to many oracle's identity, but you don't get your 4th spell slot for each rank if I understand correctly.
This is far from ideal and I feel quite strongly that all Oracles and Alchemists should be eligible for a rebuild since noone foresaw the grandfather clause breaking in this way.
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I have no interest in arguing with you, but... I don't believe it's ever given an indication that any PC except those with reported games prior to November 15 would get a rebuild at all.
I also distinctly remember this bit:
This rebuild must be used before December 31, 2024.
with attendant discussion indicating that this window was specifically extended to allow rebuilds of PC2-remastered classes. So I don't know whether I misread it, or read and forgot it, or assumed the cutoff date for PC2 classes would naturally align with the PC2 release, or what. Nevertheless, that's the data point.
In fact, the discussion around that time would imply the opposite. People who wanted to build PCs of yet-to-be-Remastered classes were strongly advised to wait until the Remastered class was out for that reason, as I recall.
Had I seen that discussion I would have objected. Who would agree to hold back ~30–50% of character creation options for nine months (or whatever the percentage of classes is)? That makes no sense to me. We're here to play Pathfinder, not dance around it!
Anyway, like I say, it's not a major upset for me. Actually, it's even less trouble for me than I thought, since I now see I didn't assign as many GM chronicles to my alchemist as I thought I had. But I do think an updated creation cutoff date for free PC2 rebuilds would be more sensible.
Contributor
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My second favorite character in PF2 was my Ancestry Oracle, Tess. I was planning on not remastering her, but I have just learned that her build is being updated to the new Oracle chassis, which breaks her build entirely. I'm heartbroken that she cannot be grandfathered. I truly am.
Now, I know that I can do the Remaster rebuild. But it kind of sucks to be forced to do a Remaster rebuild when the character worked so well and was so beloved.
Hmm
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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There's no requirement to rebuild, if you have an existing Oracle, you can keep the current, in fact in many situations you're required to keep it unless you purchase a rebuild boon.I haven't read the new one yet so I'm not sure exactly what problems the redoing of features/names of features does to an existing Oracle. Just the guidance here that they recommend it.
It is written that your Mystery is still updated even if you want to use the preremaster chassis, making your Oracle weirdly functional (I don't know how to mix and match old Mysteries rules with new Mysteries).
Subclasses are part of the chassis, they are the main reason people don't want to rebuild, they should not be updated when you keep the old chassis.And as Ashes and Time haven't been remastered, there's anyway a need for a rule to explain how to use the old Curse rules under the remaster. So it would be very easy to allow the use of all old Mysteries and not just a couple of them.
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Given the extreme overhaul to Oracle, unseen back in November 2023, and that not rebuilding an Oracle results in a non-functioning pile of mechanics, would it be the worst thing in the world to take a moment to consider and confer within the OP team whether allowing all Oracles created before August 12 wouldn’t be a good thing?
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Subclasses are part of the chassis, they are the main reason people don't want to rebuild, they should not be updated when you keep the old chassis.
This part surprised me. I don’t think we’re looking at any other classes that make a selection comparable to Mysteries and assuming they have to use the new text. I don’t have the book, so I don’t have an example, but does something like Fencer now reference the Bravado trait? Does that mean if I don’t rebuild my Swashbuckler, I can still gain Panache from a fail for skills that Fencer gives the Bravado trait?
I’m with SuperBidi on this one. I had assumed that Mysteries were part of the class chassis, and I can’t think of another class where the subclass has been treated the same as it is here.
Of course, in most other instances, the class didn’t undergo as big of a change. But to me, that’s a reason to let people who were happy with their premaster Oracles keep them.
(I am totally rebuilding my Swashbuckler. That’s a class that really doesn’t lose much and mostly gains from the remaster)
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Paizo : You are not forced to rebuild your Character !
Paizo : Hey Orcale players you are forced to remaster your Orcale, which the entire player base is unhappy with.
Awsome !!!
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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Troy's message is not exactly diplomatic, but I agree with the premises. With the remaster, Oracle traded flavor for mechanical efficiency, a trade-off most players don't want to make. Especially Oracle players who voluntarily played a mechanically weak class with lots of flavor. I expect a lot of Oracle players to keep the old chassis, something I don't expect for the Alchemist (the remaster Alchemist didn't lose any flavor) or any other class.
Battle Oracles used to be gishes, they entirely lost their martial abilities. The closest class is now Warpriest, which is a massive retraining with heavy mechanical and flavor consequences.
Ancestor Oracles had special mechanics that were very thematic but rather weak. The mechanics can be reproduced with the remaster but it's now so bad it's just unplayable. Old Ancestor Oracles are now better played with another Curse, one with close to no negative impact, so they can freely use the Cursebound action mimiking the effects of their old Curse. A massive retraining flavor wise.
Tempest Oracles used to have their own personal storm, with raging winds and torrential rains, and all the mess it was making. Now they have... nothing. A penalty to ranged attacks, as if there was any point in making ranged attacks with an Oracle, and a weakness to Electricity, one of the rarest energy in the game. Their Curse will hardly impact them more than a couple of times before level 17. Losing the mechanical effects of their Curse is a massive change that will affect the flavor (how do you play a non-cursed character as cursed? By making up effects?).
Life Oracles were bleeding healing like crazy and to compensate for it had extra hit points. They have entirely lost their Mystery healing bonus but kept their now pointless extra hit points. Do they still deserve the name of "Life" Oracles?
Paizo entirely changed the focus of the class to satisfy a very different population. No other class went though such a massive rewriting. If there's a class that must be able to keep its old chassis it's the Oracle (and by chassis, I obviously speak about the old curse mechanics).
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Life Oracles were bleeding healing like crazy and to compensate for it had extra hit points. They have entirely lost their Mystery healing bonus but kept their now pointless extra hit points. Do they still deserve the name of "Life" Oracles?
Unless the class previews missed something, Life Oracles didn’t keep their extra hit points. They did keep life link, so they can still take lots of damage for others. But they lost the extra hit points, which came from their Mystery ability (same as Battle’s proficiencies). So now Life Oracle has to try to survive taking damage for others with only 8 hp/level. And their curse still prevents a lot of healing for themselves, though at least now Life Link doesn’t increase cursebound.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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Unless the class previews missed something, Life Oracles didn’t keep their extra hit points. They did keep life link, so they can still take lots of damage for others. But they lost the extra hit points, which came from their Mystery ability (same as Battle’s proficiencies). So now Life Oracle has to try to survive taking damage for others with only 8 hp/level. And their curse still prevents a lot of healing for themselves, though at least now Life Link doesn’t increase cursebound.
You're right, it looks like I misread BadLuckGamers video with the before/after of Mysteries.
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Its heartbreaking this being rolled out as an errata and not just an option. Wizard got a big rework with remaster but we can still be proper legacy wizards if we choose to be.
This change is going to effect Archives of Nethys and Foundry VTT which change to match the erratas. You won't be able to find the old Oracle outside of your physical APG. Thats not right, we shouldn't be erasing the old Oracle.
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Its heartbreaking this being rolled out as an errata and not just an option. Wizard got a big rework with remaster but we can still be proper legacy wizards if we choose to be.
This change is going to effect Archives of Nethys and Foundry VTT which change to match the erratas. You won't be able to find the old Oracle outside of your physical APG. Thats not right, we shouldn't be erasing the old Oracle.
AoN, at least, keeps Legacy links to things. You can find it near the thing's title and can swap back and forth between Remaster/Legacy.
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You misunderstand me. They keep the Legacy, but they do not keep pre-erratas. For example the cantrips that all got errated in the remaster so they got a second damage dice and no spellcasting modifier for damage. Those spells don't exist anymore. Legacy Produce Flame is 2d4. Legacy Ray of Frost same thing. Its a small example but it goes to show if they do an errata the sites which show official rules won't save what is being overwritten.
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I don’t think it’s very likely the entire Oracle class will get errata to match the remaster. This is a PFS ruling, not errata. Weirdly, for AON, Telekinetic Projectile still lists the original damage.
What has been sticking with me is how this changes the way I now view the rest of the remastered classes. Take Sorcerer, for example. I think it’s fair to put Bloodlines and Mysteries in the same category (we called them Subclasses above). If the Mysteries have to use the new text, because they share the same names in the remaster, then shouldn’t Bloodlines also have to use the new text?
Now look at Draconic bloodline. The remaster guidelines strongly imply that a pre-remaster Draconic Sorcerer can continue to use the metallic and chromatic varieties of dragons. However, the Draconic Bloodline in the book has the same name (as far as I can tell without having the pdf yet). The metallic and chromatic dragons don’t appear in the text of the remaster bloodline. So, can a pre-remaster Draconic Sorcerer continue to use those options, or not?
Is Dragon Type considered a separate item from Bloodline? And so it works, because the names of the metallic and chromatic dragons are different than the ones in the remaster? Even though they are listed within the text of the Bloodline?
It gets very confusing very quickly.
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Can we use the first (and only) round of free rebuilds to rebuild our alchemist, barbarian, champion, investigator, monk, oracle, sorcerer, and swashbuckler characters that were created in between the releases of Player Core 1 and 2?
If not, this will create a lot of drama at our tables, and will likely cause a massive withdrawal from Society.
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You misunderstand me. They keep the Legacy, but they do not keep pre-erratas. For example the cantrips that all got errated in the remaster so they got a second damage dice and no spellcasting modifier for damage. Those spells don't exist anymore. Legacy Produce Flame is 2d4. Legacy Ray of Frost same thing. Its a small example but it goes to show if they do an errata the sites which show official rules won't save what is being overwritten.
I think you've chosen an unlucky example.
All from AoN:
You have a deep understanding of the crossbow. When you're wielding a crossbow and use Hunt Prey or use Interact to reload your crossbow, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the damage roll on your next Strike with that crossbow. If the crossbow is a simple crossbow, also increase the damage die size for that attack by one step. You must make the attack before the end of your next turn or these benefits are lost.
Your deep understanding of the crossbow allows you to reload efficiently while moving yourself out of the line of return fire. Either Create a Diversion or Take Cover, then Interact to reload. As normal, you must meet the requirements to Take Cover; you must be prone, benefiting from cover, or near a feature that allows you to Take Cover
You prefer to strong-arm or intimidate others rather than rely on finesse or fancy tricks. You might be an enforcer for organized crime, a highway bandit, or a noble who bullies others with threats of your family's power. Or, you might use your skills on the up and up, in a private security detail or as a guard in a city with the right temperament.
You use whatever tools you have at hand to get the job done. You can deal sneak attack damage with any simple weapon, in addition to the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature. When you critically succeed at an attack roll using a simple weapon and the target has the flat-footed condition (unable to focus on defending itself), you also apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you're wielding. You don't gain these benefits if the weapon has a damage die larger than d8 (after applying any abilities that alter its damage die size).
You prefer the direct approach: strong-arming or intimidation. You might be an enforcer for organized crime, a highway bandit, or a noble who bullies others with threats of your family's power.
You use whatever tools you have at hand to get the job done. You can deal sneak attack damage with any weapon, not just the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature. This benefit doesn't apply to a simple weapon with a damage die greater than d8 or a martial or advanced weapon with a damage die greater than d6. (Apply any abilities that alter the damage die size first.) Critical hits you make with these weapons gain the weapon's critical specialization benefit if the target is off-guard to you.You're trained in Intimidation and medium armor. You can choose Strength as your key ability score. When you gain light armor expertise, you also gain expert proficiency in medium armor, and when you gain light armor mastery, you also gain master proficiency in medium armor.
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- As stated previously, any characters created after November of 2023 are not granted a free Remaster Rebuild. Characters who wish to rebuild must purchase a boon to do so.
This is bizarrely new player hostile and really doesn't make sense. Oracle changed so drastically that anyone who started playing one in the last 6 months effectively being stuck in a state where they're being half put into the new rules, and being told to rebuild wile also being told they can't rebuild is an absurd state to put them in. Am I really expected to enforce that as a GM and adjudicate how an old version of the class chassis that is partially on the new version because the curse/mystery was dragged over without the rest of it is supposed to work at the table?
And why do Oracle Mysteries/Curses get replaced by the new ones while other subclasses (like Bloodlines) don't and are considered part of the class chassis? This is inconsistent with how it's being used with other classes in this same document. That is going to create massive confusion and if you're an Oracle, probably a bunch of resentment that the chromatic/metallic dragon sorcerer can keep using their old stuff while you're being forced onto the new stuff on an existing character.
I don't in any way understand the thinking here. Frankly, it comes across as stubbornness: "We said last year that we wouldn't give out another rebuild and even though we broke your whole character concept with a sweeping class revision, we're sticking to it. As a new player, you should have somehow known that you picked a class that would get drastic revisions in a future book and not played it."
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And why do Oracle Mysteries/Curses get replaced by the new ones while other subclasses (like Bloodlines) don't. . .
The problem stems from the PFS rule that features with the same name are treated as an errata by PFS, so PFS players must use the Remaster version. I don't have access to the Player Core 2, but if Angelic Bloodline is still called Angelic, those Angelic sorcerers will need to change to the Remaster version of their bloodline.
The difference being that a pre-Remaster sorcerer using a Remaster bloodline still functions correctly. They just miss out on Blood Potency and any proficiency changes that I might not know about. However, a pre-Remaster oracle with a Remaster mystery 1) looses all benefits from their mystery, 2) can't generate the cursebound status because 3) they can't take the new feats.
An example from Player Core 1: Druid Order Animal kept its name, so Druids must use the new version. Wild Order was changed to Untamed Order, so you have to keep Wild Order if you don't rebuild, which doesn't break anything.
. . .we broke your whole character concept. . .
We, as players, need to be clear on what the problem is, and it is not that concepts were broken, e.g., my flavorful ancestors oracle can't be a gish now, but rather that the pre-Remaster class does not function--the mechanics are broken--except as a very feature poor class.
Furthermore, this makes pre-Remaster oracles so inferior as a class to be an active problem to tables and likely temptation for heated arguments (and bullying) among players once they find out someone brought their beloved pre-Remaster oracle to play (or just don't have enough AcP for a rebuild).
Giving out a rebuild to oracles alleviates that potential harm and has only the downside of creating an expectation for free rebuilds when a class is remastered, though I think they should if the remastering process broke the class.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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The problem stems from the PFS rule that features with the same name are treated as an errata by PFS, so PFS players must use the Remaster version.
And using the old chassis is the notable exception that allows you to use old content that has since been rewritten.
Our complaint is that subclasses are an obvious part of the chassis and as such should be used despite the rewriting.
The funny part of mix and matching pre and post remaster rules is that the limitation to the Cursebound condition is part of the new chassis. As such, non rebuilt Oracles have no limit to their Cursebound value :D
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I'm concerned with new players in the last 9 months who have gotten above level 1, from whom AcP is still a very limited resource who happened to build an alchemist or Oracle as their first character etc.
Guess where some of my players fell in this debacle?
We made it very clear when we first posted the Remaster Guidelines that characters would not be granted a second rebuild. Players who elected to build characters using classes slated for a remaster should have been aware that they would not be granted a rebuild.
Level 1 characters may still freely rebuild as usual. Higher-level characters will require a purchased rebuild.
After years of trying to get my friends to try out Society, I finally got them to give it a go a short while ago.
Now I'm going to lose them all because of this ridiculousness. I'm going to send you guys the number to our new oracle player and YOU can explain to him the reasoning why he's getting shafted. Said player is pretty influential with the others too. This is going to kill our entire play group! And I'm not going to be the villain that breaks the news to them. If the Society team isn't going to be at all reasonable about this, then they can be the ones to tell them.
Why on earth would Paizo allow free rebuilds for Player Core 1 characters, but not Player Core 2 characters? Absurd!
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Why on earth would Paizo allow free rebuilds for Player Core 1 characters, but not Player Core 2 characters? Absurd!
Yeah, that seems really odd to me, too. They are both core books so it seems reasonable to expect a similar grace period for classes from each.
And telling players that their friends got free rebuilds because their friends preferred "the right classes," but they don't because they preferred "the wrong classes" seems like a guaranteed public relations nightmare. I think the majority of people will see this as inherently unfair.
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A non-Oracle specific question:
The Remaster guidelines for these eight classes do not take effect until August 12, 2024. Those of you attending Gen Con are free to play your characters as they are currently while everyone works to absorb the changes.
Does this mean that you can’t use the new options until August 12th? Or if you want to go ahead and rebuild a character that qualifies, can you use them before then? I’ll likely have a non-Gencon game sometime that same weekend. If I need to wait, that’s fine. I’ll likely just play a character from one of the PC1 classes.
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A non-Oracle specific question:
The Remaster guidelines for these eight classes do not take effect until August 12, 2024. Those of you attending Gen Con are free to play your characters as they are currently while everyone works to absorb the changes.Does this mean that you can’t use the new options until August 12th? Or if you want to go ahead and rebuild a character that qualifies, can you use them before then? I’ll likely have a non-Gencon game sometime that same weekend. If I need to wait, that’s fine. I’ll likely just play a character from one of the PC1 classes.
My understanding is that you can use the new rules from 01 August, the release date. You must implement the new guidelines from 12 August.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Bellevue
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It seems like some people are getting really spun up. Reminder here:
Linked below is a draft of the updated Remaster Guidelines, which will work in tandem with the Character Options page to bring these classes into alignment.
Emphasis on draft (bold text is on me). I'm sure the decision makers are reading these posts, even as they get ready for GenCon. I'm also sure that at GenCon, Alex and the gang will be hearing more opinions. "Draft" doesn't mean final. I'm sure they will take all our (hopefully respectful) concerns into consideration before going final --- which will be days after GenCon.
I share concerns about the Oracle, but I'm not going to get spun up about a draft.
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My understanding is that you can use the new rules from 01 August, the release date. You must implement the new guidelines from 12 August.A non-Oracle specific question:
The Remaster guidelines for these eight classes do not take effect until August 12, 2024. Those of you attending Gen Con are free to play your characters as they are currently while everyone works to absorb the changes.Does this mean that you can’t use the new options until August 12th? Or if you want to go ahead and rebuild a character that qualifies, can you use them before then? I’ll likely have a non-Gencon game sometime that same weekend. If I need to wait, that’s fine. I’ll likely just play a character from one of the PC1 classes.
I ask, because PC2 isn’t on the Character Options page yet, and I don’t think Alex’s post said anything about when that would happen.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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It seems like some people are getting really spun up. Reminder here:
Linked below is a draft of the updated Remaster Guidelines, which will work in tandem with the Character Options page to bring these classes into alignment.Emphasis on draft (bold text is on me). I'm sure the decision makers are reading these posts, even as they get ready for GenCon. I'm also sure that at GenCon, Alex and the gang will be hearing more opinions. "Draft" doesn't mean final. I'm sure they will take all our (hopefully respectful) concerns into consideration before going final --- which will be days after GenCon.
I share concerns about the Oracle, but I'm not going to get spun up about a draft.
That's why I react now, because it may be useful. Disagreements happen. Ultimately, it will be the PFS staff decision.
Organized Play Coordinator
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A non-Oracle specific question:
The Remaster guidelines for these eight classes do not take effect until August 12, 2024. Those of you attending Gen Con are free to play your characters as they are currently while everyone works to absorb the changes.Does this mean that you can’t use the new options until August 12th? Or if you want to go ahead and rebuild a character that qualifies, can you use them before then? I’ll likely have a non-Gencon game sometime that same weekend. If I need to wait, that’s fine. I’ll likely just play a character from one of the PC1 classes.
You absolutely may rebuild early, yes! The book will be sanctioned for play on August 1.
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I'm concerned with new players in the last 9 months who have gotten above level 1, from whom AcP is still a very limited resource who happened to build an alchemist or Oracle as their first character etc.Guess where some of my players fell in this debacle?
We made it very clear when we first posted the Remaster Guidelines that characters would not be granted a second rebuild. Players who elected to build characters using classes slated for a remaster should have been aware that they would not be granted a rebuild.
Level 1 characters may still freely rebuild as usual. Higher-level characters will require a purchased rebuild.
After years of trying to get my friends to try out Society, I finally got them to give it a go a short while ago.
Now I'm going to lose them all because of this ridiculousness. I'm going to send you guys the number to our new oracle player and YOU can explain to him the reasoning why he's getting shafted. Said player is pretty influential with the others too. This is going to kill our entire play group! And I'm not going to be the villain that breaks the news to them. If the Society team isn't going to be at all reasonable about this, then they can be the ones to tell them.
Why on earth would Paizo allow free rebuilds for Player Core 1 characters, but not Player Core 2 characters? Absurd!
No matter how much Paizo devs are adamant that they gave amble warning to everyone to use your Remaster rebuilds responsibly, there is a very real danger that they could make a hostile environment at a table which is one of the few things they absolutely must avoid for the health of the community. It is only reasonable every class gets the privilege to have their mechanics preserved in the legacy version. The only decisions which are truly unacceptable are ones which hurt the community and I agree with Ravingdork that this risks that. Alex acknowledges the remaster for Alchemists and Oracles is highly recommended because features will stop working as intended. Paizo is saying clear enough the class will being technically playable but is being broken. Paizo is potentially putting players in a difficult position which might make more toxic table. Even the chance of that must be avoided.
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You absolutely may rebuild early, yes! The book will be sanctioned for play on August 1.A non-Oracle specific question:
The Remaster guidelines for these eight classes do not take effect until August 12, 2024. Those of you attending Gen Con are free to play your characters as they are currently while everyone works to absorb the changes.Does this mean that you can’t use the new options until August 12th? Or if you want to go ahead and rebuild a character that qualifies, can you use them before then? I’ll likely have a non-Gencon game sometime that same weekend. If I need to wait, that’s fine. I’ll likely just play a character from one of the PC1 classes.
Thank you!
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It seems like some people are getting really spun up. Reminder here:
Linked below is a draft of the updated Remaster Guidelines, which will work in tandem with the Character Options page to bring these classes into alignment.Emphasis on draft (bold text is on me). I'm sure the decision makers are reading these posts, even as they get ready for GenCon. I'm also sure that at GenCon, Alex and the gang will be hearing more opinions. "Draft" doesn't mean final. I'm sure they will take all our (hopefully respectful) concerns into consideration before going final --- which will be days after GenCon.
I share concerns about the Oracle, but I'm not going to get spun up about a draft.
That the document is a draft is technically true, but I believe you will find the emotional component of the concern comes from the response received following the concern for oracles built after November 2023 being pointed out.
We made it very clear when we first posted the Remaster Guidelines that characters would not be granted a second rebuild. Players who elected to build characters using classes slated for a remaster should have been aware that they would not be granted a rebuild.
Level 1 characters may still freely rebuild as usual. Higher-level characters will require a purchased rebuild.
That response does not sound very draft-ish.
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Why on earth would Paizo allow free rebuilds for Player Core 1 characters, but not Player Core 2 characters? Absurd!
So that the nuance isn't lost to others in the several posts of concern: Player Core 2 characters, including oracles, can be rebuilt for free x 1... if they had 1 XP on them before November 2023.
There are two different concerns with the oracle conversion rules:
1) Newer players who may not even have been PFS players before the blog scrolled off the website's front page who created oracles after November 2023 must now pay AcP to rebuild if they want to not be an NPC acolyte class with penalties rather than rebuilding for free x 1. From my perspective, this is the bigger concern, as it disproportionately affects new players and those players may have accumulated more than 12 XP but not enough games for a rebuild boon. They can't play that character to earn AcP, or else they'll be stuck as a pre-Remaster oracle (see below).
2) Older characters who could rebuild but don't want to, however, the way the conversion rules are written, the Mystery must use the remaster version, which is where all the benefits for an oracle used to rest in the pre-remaster version. 3/day spontaneous divine casting, with no benefits from the Mystery, but a curse that now increases each time you cast a Focus spell, and can only decrease by 1 by refocusing, and has no upper limit--those Ancestor oracles are going to be irritated by their Clumsy 6 status--and any other pre-remaster feat or feature that interacted with the mystery benefits won't work, either. It's a legitimate concern.
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Why on earth would Paizo allow free rebuilds for Player Core 1 characters, but not Player Core 2 characters? Absurd!So that the nuance isn't lost to others in the several posts of concern: Player Core 2 characters, including oracles, can be rebuilt for free x 1... if they had 1 XP on them before November 2023.
There are two different concerns with the oracle conversion rules:
1) Newer players who may not even have been PFS players before the blog scrolled off the website's front page who created oracles after November 2023 must now pay AcP to rebuild if they want to not be an NPC acolyte class with penalties rather than rebuilding for free x 1. From my perspective, this is the bigger concern, as it disproportionately affects new players and those players may have accumulated more than 12 XP but not enough games for a rebuild boon. They can't play that character to earn AcP, or else they'll be stuck as a pre-Remaster oracle (see below).
2) Older characters who could rebuild but don't want to, however, the way the conversion rules are written, the Mystery must use the remaster version, which is where all the benefits for an oracle used to rest in the pre-remaster version. 3/day spontaneous divine casting, with no benefits from the Mystery, but a curse that now increases each time you cast a Focus spell, and can only decrease by 1 by refocusing, and has no upper limit--those Ancestor oracles are going to be irritated by their Clumsy 6 status--and any other pre-remaster feat or feature that interacted with the mystery benefits won't work, either. It's a legitimate concern.
Well that puts us in a peculiar spot. The characters in question were made after November 2023, but have had floating credits placed on them from as far back as 2019. At the time, my players weren't interested in Society so when we ran our first Pathfinder playtest with a Society scenario and a bunch of pregens, we didn't follow up on the paperwork. Years later, I finally got them interested enough to try it, and try it properly, so they made new characters and I credited them with our early playtest and with Extinction Curse #1, which we also played through in 2020. Essentially most everyone jumped to level 2 from the word "go."
We need this to go our way. Half the party consists of PC2 classes. We have a barbarian, champion, and and oracle, along with a bard and kineticist. If it doesn't pan out and the draft goes to the final in much the same way as people seem to be indicating, my friends most certainly will abandon Society, and might even throw in the towel on Pathfinder altogether.
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Just update the reporting dates to the original plays that were before the cutoff and they are fine.
Doesn't help other new players, but at least yours will be covered.
The reporting dates should be pretty accurate as they stand.
So we get the free rebuild then? And it is once per character? (I think I'm the only one among us who has done it already with a PC1 character.)
Heres the thing. How does it break the universe if we play legacy orcales. Just let us play the characters we want to have fun with at society. Most orcale players play orcales to build around the curses and enjoy the challenge and the uniquess. I've got many compliments on my battle orcale build, but now am forced to rebuild into the remaster battle orcale, which is trash.