My guess would be if anything changes, it'll be auto scaling acrobatics. I'll probably be happy with that but I'd like to see some kind of easier panache change.Yeah sadly auto-scaling Acrobatics is nowhere near enough to save the class - that can be accomplished via the simple expedient of the Acrobat dedication. To fix the "what do you mean, damage?" issues would require a more thorough rework.
Yes this is the sort of quality of life improvment that you see everywhere in some classes and not in others.
Swashbuckler really need to have an enemy independent way of generating Panche from level 1 onwards. Technically they have the "very hard DC" thing but it's a GM optional thing tucked into the back of the Panche rules. They need an Overdrive like action straight out of the box even if it does nothing other than generating Panche.
Also please give them a Finisher that works on precision immune enemies at like, level 2.
What do you propose as an enemy independent method? 'After You' seems to fit the bill, but otherwise you're trying to do something with or to the enemy involved. I'm not trying to shoot it down, just wondering what you might be thinking.
Honestly, I've been just theorycrafting/playing with Pathfinder dolls and trying to create a professional wrestler sort of character, and if I ever play her I"d like to see her do well. Which now makes me wonder how one would try modelling a missile dropkick or moonsault off of a statue ...
Riposte is currently borderline irrelevant, so that would be awesome yup.
Not if you work at it.
I'm still gonna say: Swash shouldn't have those subclasses, if skill action is still important for gaining Panache then all those applicabpe skill action should be able to gain Panache.
Every swashshpuld be able to gain panache from bragging, making a feint, wrestling people dowm andmaking a witty retort.
Love this suggestion.
Would it make all Swashbucklers too same-y? Yes, so there's something that should be looked at in terms of subclasses.
Perhaps give them more stances like the Monk?
Riposte on a failure if you are in Panache does sound very cool,
Love the play patterns associated with this.
This may perhaps be worth a separate post in homebrew, but how about this for a change to panache, finishers, and Opportune Riposte:
By default, you gain panache under the following circumstances:
This would give players many more opportunities to gain panache from the start.
Examples of finishers using this model:
Bleeding Finisher
Your blow inflicts profuse bleeding. Make a Strike, which does not deal its normal damage, but instead deals 2d12 persistent bleed damage (+1d12 every 4 levels) based on the result:
Confident Finisher
You make an incredibly graceful attack, piercing your foe's defenses and possibly killing them outright. Make a Strike, dealing 2d6 additional precision damage (+1d6 every 4 levels). This Strike has the death trait, and deals half damage on a failure.
(This would effectively combine Confident Finisher and Lethal Finisher.)
Stunning Finisher
You attempt a dizzying blow. Make a Strike, which does not deal its normal damage, but instead may knock the target off-guard or even stun them based on the result:
(This would effectively combine Stunning Finisher and Unbalancing Finisher).
Targeting Finisher
Your attack hinders your foe. Choose clumsy, enfeebled, or stupefied, and make a Strike. The Strike does not deal its normal damage, but instead applies the chosen condition based on the result:
I'm still gonna say: Swash shouldn't have those subclasses, if skill action is still important for gaining Panache then all those applicabpe skill action should be able to gain Panache.
Every swashshpuld be able to gain panache from bragging, making a feint, wrestling people dowm andmaking a witty retort.
That's why I had suggested Panache as a compressed Strike, Strike or Skill action that would give Panache regardless of the result (with the exception of perhaps critical failure for fun reasons).
If you pay attention to films, stories and animes with boastful characters and similar characters, like Pirates of the Caribbean or Zorro, they often make mistakes! And yet, this is still part of their Panache! A little mistake is not an excuse to lose the superiority, debauchery and braggadocio of a Swashbuckler.
The problem with Panache today is that it depends on a hit, and as pointed out it is also restricted to some actions just to justify the subclass.
Remove these restrictions and make the Panache looser to enter and the Swashbuckler becomes much more interesting and fun.
Now keep in mind that this is just one of the problems, it doesn't solve the pressure of finishers that prevent new attacks, nor the inefficiency in DPR when compared to other class options, especially the rogue.
The idea of compress Panache in a Strike is the same of compress the Elemental Blast in Channel Elements that's save your action economy and make the finishers more like finishers instead of Move/Rise a Shield, Panache with some skill action and then finish in the same turn.
The very idea that worth more just use a finisher as first Strike IMO is offensive to the very concept of a finisher so if make worth you to Strike first to gain a Panache this helps into turn the finisher a finisher move.
Also IMO get a Panache isn't about of what you are doing or if it worked or not but how you are doing. So Strike in a stravagant and offensive way for me can be qualified as a Panache too.
The other mechanical point of this idea is that once that you are adding Strike as a subordinated action inside a Panache action this also prevents it to be exploited by other activities moves because the rule of subordinated action that allows only the specific subordinated action to happen and not another action that contains the same subordinated action like a Finisher.
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A lot of great stuff, see original post
Looks good, especially the change to Riposte. Currently I see it described as a way to prevent monsters crit fishing on a third Strike. The image of a gymnast beckoning to a foe to strike (After You) and sending the foe to the ground on a miss is almost iconic.
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The very idea that worth more just use a finisher as first Strike IMO is offensive to the very concept of a finisher so if make worth you to Strike first to gain a Panache this helps into turn the finisher a finisher move.
This I feel is perhaps more of a problem with the use of the term “finisher”, which I personally find quite limiting to the range of spectacular things a swashbuckler can do. Swashbucklers in my opinion aren’t just about deadly finishing attacks, or even finishing moves at all, they do a whole range of things with great flair. In my opinion, this should mean a wider range of options for spending panache, beyond just powerful Strikes.
Thanks Teridax. I think I agree with your modification to my 'all crit success = panache' proposal. It's a lot more complicated and wordy by virtue of the caveats, and possibly makes next to no difference in play (swashbucklers aren't often making RK checks in combat!), but it does make conceptual sense that the crit success needs an audience to generate panache.
Your 'enemy crit fails against you' addition is intriguing. Is the idea here that you gain confidence from the embarrassment of your foes?
Why thank you, and yes! The idea is that when your foes fail spectacularly against you, you just come across as all the more awesome for it -- an enemy tries to trip you, but with a clever sidestep you make them fall flat on their face, for instance. I would also like it to reinforce the Swashbuckler's identity as a dodge tank -- they're super agile and have good defenses, which they'd want to show off by putting themselves at the center of danger, yet still avoiding it as it comes from all sides.
Why do you want to remove disarm as an option for the Riposte?
I should have probably elaborated more on this, but I feel there ought to be a separate feat, perhaps even a finisher, that lets you Disarm enemies with a Strike rather than an Athletics check: Disarming with Athletics isn't really the Swashbuckler's normal style (unless you're a Gymnast), because you're not really wresting your opponent's weapon out of their hand with brute strength, so much as knocking it out of their grasp with a well-placed weapon strike. That to me is a current failure in thematic coherence that ought to be addressed.
All of this is making me think of different ways the Swashbuckler could be improved, as well. I might write something up in the homebrew forum.
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The very idea that worth more just use a finisher as first Strike IMO is offensive to the very concept of a finisher so if make worth you to Strike first to gain a Panache this helps into turn the finisher a finisher move.This I feel is perhaps more of a problem with the use of the term “finisher”, which I personally find quite limiting to the range of spectacular things a swashbuckler can do. Swashbucklers in my opinion aren’t just about deadly finishing attacks, or even finishing moves at all, they do a whole range of things with great flair. In my opinion, this should mean a wider range of options for spending panache, beyond just powerful Strikes.
This is not about the use of the term "finisher". But in fact that the class was mechanically built gravitating towards finishers. It technically works like a Magus' SpellStrike, where for efficiency the player will always try to get a finisher every round.
And honestly, based on the changes that were made to the classes in PC1, they most likely won't make major changes here, so don't expect anything like replacing the finisher system with something else, they will probably try to improve what exists and not replace it. .
But I agree with you, finishers create bad pressure in the class, which overshadows the rest of the idea of being a Swashbuckler and ends up summing it all up to "how to give the most and the best possible finishers per round".
That's why I'm so "desperately" proposing very significant improvements to Panache, to try to move this focus away from the finisher and give the class more flexibility and try to make the class not be a Magus that deals precision damage (inefficiently) in the place of magic.
Riposte is currently borderline irrelevant, so that would be awesome yup.
Ok I have seen this too much. So a quick run down on Riposte.
Yes if you do nothing a Riposte only trigger when your enemy rolls a 1. This will vary by their level a lot. But that is not irrelevant. Because of MAP. They will likely stop attacking you at -5 to hit. They wil almost certainly stop attacking you at -10 to hit. That is a big defensive boost to you as that attack at -5 is still about half the value of a normal strike.
But that is the do nothing approach you can shift your odds a lot. Extra defence helps your offence:
1) Buff your defences. Use a shield/parry weapon/buckler/Dueling Parry.
2) Spells like Protection, Forbidding Ward or Inspire Defense.
3) Debuff your enemy with Demoralise or any number of spells or abilities.
4) Feint in particular Goading Feint which is a good pickup for any characer with charisma. It will likely stack with everything else as it is a circumstance penalty to their attack roll.
It is pretty easy to shift that roll by 6. That really brings your odds of a riposte up to something quite useful. When you are facing a boss you are very likely to have all those numbers stacked up.
Embrace your role as a defender and take the point position.
En garde
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IDK I've played a full campaign, several scenarios, and two mini adventures with a Swashbuckler and between them all I think I've seen Riposte activate like five or six times total. It's cool when it happens but I wouldn't call it anything approaching reliable, even with heavy use of defensive options and debuffs.
Plus by its nature it's more likely to happen the lower the stakes, which means a number of those procs weren't necessarily particularly impactful either.
It's definitely more than nothing, but I wouldn't say the people treating it like a ribbon feature are that off base either.
But that is the do nothing approach you can shift your odds a lot. Extra defence helps your offence:All that does is turn you into the aforementioned adamantine brick.
Trying to be a defender/tank requires two things:
1. Good defense.
2. Some way of making opponents want to attack you.That's why Champions make good tanks, because they have both. Heavy armor and good shield feats buff their defenses, and their Champion's Reaction lets them both defend their allies and punish their foes for attacking said allies.
If you're spending actions to make attacking yourself difficult, and possibly punitive for the opponent, that just means they'll go after someone else.
You still have Attack of Opportunity, which assists by making you sticky and costs them actions to avoid.
Yes this tactic is better if they can't easily get around you - as in most dungeon crawls versus an open area. That still gives it a role.
The GM should be attacking you if you are goading and bon motting your opponent, purely on roleplaying grounds. The GM is supposed to roleplay as well you know.
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Something I'll say about swashbuckler is that I think Panache is too specific flavor-wise.
Swashbuckler and rogue are really the only frontline martials that are designed with DEX-based melee combat in mind, and since rogue is so reliant on Sneak Attack, swashbuckler is your main option if you just want to focus on fighting your foes head-on with a finesse melee weapon. The problem is that swashbuckler also kind of expects you to act like an intentionally flashy show-off, and Panache's mechanics reflect that in a few ways (gaining Panache from non-style-related skill checks to do something flashy, for example). This is perfect for the "typical" swashbuckler that *does* want to go out of their way to look cool in fights, but it makes the class kind of clash with characters whose personalities are more serious and practical-minded.
That's not to say I don't like the classic, show-offy swashbuckler aesthetic, of course, but I think the class could benefit from *not* having that be the sole default flavor. It would be nice to have room for other character concepts, like a tribal skirmisher or a cold-and-methodical fencer. (Though an alternative solution might just be to leave Panache as-is and instead give fighter more support for DEX-based melee builds somehow.)
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And honestly, based on the changes that were made to the classes in PC1, they most likely won't make major changes here, so don't expect anything like replacing the finisher system with something else, they will probably try to improve what exists and not replace it.
This kinda makes me sad because it's true, and it's sad because I think swashbucklers and investigators need fundamental changes in their kit to become something that isn't just worse rogues. The only two swashbuckler's styles that actually work are fencer and wit, the other ones are simply worst options through and through.
The investigator is less bad because it's pretty much a glorified rogue class archetype, but I think it at least needs to change Pursue a Lead into something similar to Hunt Prey that requires an action to set up instead of 10 minutes and Devise a Stratagem should always be a free action. This would force investigators to have a playstyle that would revolve around using most of their actions to use skill or utility actions, with one action dedicated to Strike if they know they'll succeed with it. Easier access to Pursue a Lead would also allow the investigator to be a more specialized rogue that while weaker as a martial will be better at being "precise" with it's skills.
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Riposte is currently borderline irrelevant, so that would be awesome yup.Ok I have seen this too much. So a quick run down on Riposte.
Yes if you do nothing a Riposte only trigger when your enemy rolls a 1. This will vary by their level a lot. But that is not irrelevant. Because of MAP. They will likely stop attacking you at -5 to hit. They wil almost certainly stop attacking you at -10 to hit. That is a big defensive boost to you as that attack at -5 is still about half the value of a normal strike.
But that is the do nothing approach you can shift your odds a lot. Extra defence helps your offence:
1) Buff your defences. Use a shield/parry weapon/buckler/Dueling Parry.
2) Spells like Protection, Forbidding Ward or Inspire Defense.
3) Debuff your enemy with Demoralise or any number of spells or abilities.
4) Feint in particular Goading Feint which is a good pickup for any characer with charisma. It will likely stack with everything else as it is a circumstance penalty to their attack roll.
It is pretty easy to shift that roll by 6. That really brings your odds of a riposte up to something quite useful. When you are facing a boss you are very likely to have all those numbers stacked up.
Embrace your role as a defender and take the point position.
En garde
Is your enemy lobotomized? When you see a PC going all in on defense you don't attack them. Even in a choke point scenario, where the Swash should be strongest, the enemy could be better off breaking line of sight to the party's ranged damage and recovering, setting an ambush, or doing anything else that isn't walking mindlessly into eating counter attacks.
The GM should be attacking you if you are goading and bon motting your opponent, purely on roleplaying grounds. The GM is supposed to roleplay as well you know.
Why should enemies be mindless idiots who do stupid things just because somebody is taunting them? Do you go around fighting everybody who insults you? Do you expect your players to do the same back to the enemies?
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The GM should be attacking you if you are goading and bon motting your opponent, purely on roleplaying grounds. The GM is supposed to roleplay as well you know.Why should enemies be mindless idiots who do stupid things just because somebody is taunting them? Do you go around fighting everybody who insults you? Do you expect your players to do the same back to the enemies?
Because it's heroic fantasy, and sometimes that means enemies do stupid things to play up the heroes doing cool things or using abilities.
Fighters make excellent fencers though. They have lots of great feats, plus that sweet +2 to hit. You can just as easily build a Fighter with Charisma and Deception for Feinting as you can a Swashbuckler.
In fact, part of the core problem many have with Swashbucklers is that Fighters can make so much better fencers than they do.
Agreed. Fighter archetyped into a Swashbuckler can do exact the same thing by level 6. Plus they are doing it with a heavier weapon and +2 to hit.
Fighter does that to a lot of classes though. It is a bit of a design problem that Paizo needs to gently unwind.
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Because it's heroic fantasy, and sometimes that means enemies do stupid things to play up the heroes doing cool things or using abilities.
Can you show me a page in the rules that says this? Anything on the skills being used that suggests enemies should rush to attack Bon Mot users?
If you can't this is useless to any table that doesn't share your exact view on what makes heroic fantasy fun.
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Something I'll say about swashbuckler is that I think Panache is too specific flavor-wise.
Swashbuckler and rogue are really the only frontline martials that are designed with DEX-based melee combat in mind, and since rogue is so reliant on Sneak Attack, swashbuckler is your main option if you just want to focus on fighting your foes head-on with a finesse melee weapon. The problem is that swashbuckler also kind of expects you to act like an intentionally flashy show-off, and Panache's mechanics reflect that in a few ways (gaining Panache from non-style-related skill checks to do something flashy, for example). This is perfect for the "typical" swashbuckler that *does* want to go out of their way to look cool in fights, but it makes the class kind of clash with characters whose personalities are more serious and practical-minded.
That's not to say I don't like the classic, show-offy swashbuckler aesthetic, of course, but I think the class could benefit from *not* having that be the sole default flavor. It would be nice to have room for other character concepts, like a tribal skirmisher or a cold-and-methodical fencer. (Though an alternative solution might just be to leave Panache as-is and instead give fighter more support for DEX-based melee builds somehow.)
Fighters make excellent fencers though. They have lots of great feats, plus that sweet +2 to hit. You can just as easily build a Fighter with Charisma and Deception for Feinting as you can a Swashbuckler.
In fact, part of the core problem many have with Swashbucklers is that Fighters can make so much better fencers than they do.
From the standpoint of a STR-based fighter, yes, definitely. From the standpoint of a DEX-based fighter... still yes, but the STR-based fighter does pretty much everything that the DEX-based fighter does (in regards to melee combat specifically), and it does it the same or better. It'd be nice for fighters to have a few melee-focused feats that reward high DEX or something. At the very least it'd be nice to see some DEX-based skill feats that are more directly useful in melee combat; the only one that really comes to mind is Kip Up, and that doesn't really interact with your DEX itself, it just requires master Acrobatics.
I think in the broad sense I'd just like to see more options overall for DEX-based melee builds. (Without making STR obsolete, of course.)
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I view the swashbuckler as the second worst martial in the game (investigator is the worst). In agents of edgewatch, I was playing a ranger which is considered to be a weaker martial, and I was still doing a lot more damage than the swashbuckler.
It's my opinion the swashbuckler needs major changes.
I disagree on the investigator being the worst martial in the game because even with all it's problems an investigator still is a dollar store rogue. Swash, however, is a mix of a lot of concepts who were poorly implemented.
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The investigator is number one because their offensive schtick is worse off than the swashbuckler and their feats are terrible.
The swash's offensive schtick is fine if panache generation is fixed and maybe the finisher tag no longer stops other attacks.
Whereas investigator's offensive schtick looks practically unfixable as it is written. It takes a level 10 feat for an investigator to gain the equivalent of a Swash's precise strikes. Investigator's feats are fricking terrible.
Swash feats are pretty good. There are a lot of desirable Swash feats.
Investigator feats are so DM dependent as to be useless in a campaign not built specifically for an investigator. Even in that type of campaign, they aren't particularly desirable.
Investigator is worse off in my opinion.
Swash needs one major fix to panache generation with a possible other fix the finisher tag.
I disagree on the investigator being the worst martial in the game because even with all it's problems an investigator still is a dollar store rogue. Swash, however, is a mix of a lot of concepts who were poorly implemented.I view the swashbuckler as the second worst martial in the game (investigator is the worst). In agents of edgewatch, I was playing a ranger which is considered to be a weaker martial, and I was still doing a lot more damage than the swashbuckler.
It's my opinion the swashbuckler needs major changes.
Agreed!
Investigator has its problems but at last Devise a Stratagem don't requires an additional success check to work, gives an extra roll (that you can choose to not use if it was a bad roll), add INT to dmg, have an elixir that increases the precision dmg dice to D8, don't suffer from so much MAD, isn't forced to get and progress specific skills to use its main ability and its a skill monkey that works very well in exploration mode.
Its impressive the number of mistakes necessary in a classe to get into the same level of the Swashbuckler.
The investigator is number one because their offensive schtick is worse off than the swashbuckler and their feats are terrible.
The swash's offensive schtick is fine if panache generation is fixed and maybe the finisher tag no longer stops other attacks.
Whereas investigator's offensive schtick looks practically unfixable as it is written. It takes a level 10 feat for an investigator to gain the equivalent of a Swash's precise strikes. Investigator's feats are fricking terrible.
Swash feats are pretty good. There are a lot of desirable Swash feats.
Investigator feats are so DM dependent as to be useless in a campaign not built specifically for an investigator. Even in that type of campaign, they aren't particularly desirable.
Investigator is worse off in my opinion.
Swash needs one major fix to panache generation with a possible other fix the finisher tag.
Investigator feats are more exploration oriented IMO.
I GMed a game with an Investigator player and the investigator looks like an "oficial metagaming" class due their abilities to get info.
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I only disagree with calling the investigator the worst martial because it implies that it needs a qualifier there.
Investigator is hands down the worst class in the whole game period, and it's not even close. It's barely even functional, and mostly just does a rogue's gimmick but with significantly worse damage and awkward class features that basically require your GM to babysit you to even function.
At least swashbucklers eventually do decent damage with the right feats.
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I disagree on the investigator being the worst martial in the game because even with all it's problems an investigator still is a dollar store rogue. Swash, however, is a mix of a lot of concepts who were poorly implemented.I view the swashbuckler as the second worst martial in the game (investigator is the worst). In agents of edgewatch, I was playing a ranger which is considered to be a weaker martial, and I was still doing a lot more damage than the swashbuckler.
It's my opinion the swashbuckler needs major changes.
Agreed!
Investigator has its problems but at last Devise a Stratagem don't requires an additional success check to work, gives an extra roll (that you can choose to not use if it was a bad roll), add INT to dmg, have an elixir that increases the precision dmg dice to D8, don't suffer from so much MAD, isn't forced to get and progress specific skills to use its main ability and its a skill monkey that works very well in exploration mode.
Its impressive the number of mistakes necessary in a classe to get into the same level of the Swashbuckler.
...The investigator is number one because their offensive schtick is worse off than the swashbuckler and their feats are terrible.
The swash's offensive schtick is fine if panache generation is fixed and maybe the finisher tag no longer stops other attacks.
Whereas investigator's offensive schtick looks practically unfixable as it is written. It takes a level 10 feat for an investigator to gain the equivalent of a Swash's precise strikes. Investigator's feats are fricking terrible.
Swash feats are pretty good. There are a lot of desirable Swash feats.
Investigator feats are so DM dependent as to be useless in a campaign not built specifically for an investigator. Even in that type of campaign, they aren't particularly desirable.
Investigator is worse off in my opinion.
Swash needs one major fix to panache generation with a
Metagaming is heavily campaign and GM dependent.
I'm running an investigator in a game right now as DM. I'm very kind handing out info because what else can he do? If you're going to play the Sherlock Holmes class, might as well make him feel like Sherlock.
This is a campaign built for an investigator. So it helps as a DM.
Not sure what that class would do in a regular campaign. I guess be that interesting guy that tells everyone what something is after they're dead while occasionally doing a good Strategic Strike attack.
Barbarian listening intently to the investigator after murdering the enemy with his axe, "That's real good to know. I'm going to cook it now."