I don't catch your idea. It's remove the finisher and make the Panache allow a constant mechanic?
- Remove finishers as a concept. Tie the swashbuckler special sauce to flourishes instead. Tweak it in such a way that they aren't all immediately rushing to Monk to grab FoB.
- Don't "spend" panache. Once you get panache, you have it until you lose it. You lose it if you hit a bunch of fail all at once, and then you need to grab it again.
- Various suggestions for ways to get panache and what it means to fail hard enough to lose it.
- Some tangible immediate benefit for doing things that would gain you panache while you already have panache, to encourage you to keep doing the awesome things. In this particular case, a free action immediate-use flourish ability that lets you make a strike - thus both opening up your action economy a bit and giving you the built-in flourish that the class needs to make its flourish abilities actually go.
Much like casters, you can target multiple saves. Use that. High fort? Trip them or tumble. Even if you can't target the weakest save targetting the mediocre one will work more often than not, especially as you level.
I enjoy the idea of all the different finishers. They're unique and flavorful and provide a different mechanic from rogue debilitations.
The issue with them is twofold. One is that they encourage an "all or nothing" playstyle on a class with standard martial to-hit in a game that is ruthlessly balanced around numerical consistency and around rolling an 9 to hit being the standard to connect against level-appropriate monsters.
Which means you have 60/40 odds (higher with heroism, inspire courage, and flat-footed, but still base 60/40 odds) of landing your ONLY attack each round.
The second issue is that they're too low-damage right now. At lowish level they look decent enough, but lose steam later on when they're only 1d6 points above Sneak Attack but still supposed to be your PC's entire DPR. If they stayed at double sneak attack, they'd be fine.
It's like magus, except you don't get true strike and your damage is lower.
I wonder if the Panache mechanic couldn't operate via- "Psyching yourself up is easy, but staying in the groove is hard."
Which is to say that you gain panache trivially, but it tends to just fade away quickly if you can't maintain that "hot streak" by succeeding at stuff.
Yeah, I also have to chuckle a bit at the person comparing the damage of Confident Finisher to an entire combat round of a different character.
Goading Feint + Dueling Parry is the closest we have to the PF1 Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. But doing that defensive fighting combo in PF2 means only having one action left for attacking with.
Fortunately Swashbuckler can load all of their damage into that one attack.
There is more to overall balance than just total damage done during a round.
Yeah, I also have to chuckle a bit at the person comparing the damage of Confident Finisher to an entire combat round of a different character.
Goading Feint + Dueling Parry is the closest we have to the PF1 Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. But doing that defensive fighting combo in PF2 means only having one action left for attacking with.
Fortunately Swashbuckler can load all of their damage into that one attack.
There is more to overall balance than just total damage done during a round.
Goading feint + dueling parry do have the unfortunate impact of making you into an adamantine brick. Namely, you deal smallish amounts of damage and are very hard to kill.
Being hard to kill is not inherently valuable. It just means the monsters ignore you and kill your party instead. If you're dealing a ton of damage or doing solid crowd control or healing other PCs, this is great, because it means the main party damage dealer/healer/controller isn't getting targeted and can keep doing their thing. But if you're dealing swashbuckler-level damage...I mean, why would anyone care? Why not IGNORE the lump of titanium just sitting there with sky-high defenses who pings for microscopic amounts of damage?
There's more to balance than just total damage, but "being a tank that doesn't deal good damage and provides no incentive to attack it" is not itself a good role. It's the 3.x and PF 1E monk role, and that's NOT a compliment.
The same can be said of oracle and witch. Witch was (and is) a 3-slot caster with focus cantrips (hexes) which generally cost 1 action... very similar to bard. Again the comparison is really unfair because bard is ALSO one of the strongest classes in the game, but witch hex cantrips are utterly inferior to bard focus/composition cantrips
Curiously, while I agree with your conclusion, your premise here is flawed. Namely, witch cantrips did not exist in the playtest. The correct comparison was to the wizard class, as the witch in the playlets was a 4 slot caster with focus spells and a super familiar. Having an unrestricted 4th slot was probably thought to be fairly strong on the first design pass, and in fairness it kind of is. The problem is that they lost that entire slot to gain cantrips, but that was far too harsh of a price when the cantrips are as restricted as they were.
Yeah, I also have to chuckle a bit at the person comparing the damage of Confident Finisher to an entire combat round of a different character.
Goading Feint + Dueling Parry is the closest we have to the PF1 Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. But doing that defensive fighting combo in PF2 means only having one action left for attacking with.
Fortunately Swashbuckler can load all of their damage into that one attack.
There is more to overall balance than just total damage done during a round.
Yeah, I feel like people are putting too much stock in white room math where people never move.
When I played Swashbucklers for the well over three years that I have I moved around a lot.
By those standards champions are bad tanks too. Their damage is half that of other martials, but they're very difficult to kill.
Good champions give enemies a reason for enemies to hit them over allies with their reactions and yeah evil champions are kind of bad tanks because they are just durable without giving enemies a reason to hit them over other party members.
By those standards champions are bad tanks too. Their damage is half that of other martials, but they're very difficult to kill.
Oh to be clear I'm not saying being hard to kill is inherently bad!
Good-aligned champions provide party-wide benefits - they provide proactive healing in the form of reactions that reduce incoming damage to allies. This is a HUGE incentive to attack their sky-high defenses.
The issue with the swashbuckler described above is that unlike champions, there ISN'T an incentive to attack their sky-high defenses. Their mediocre damage output can be safely ignored in a way that champion reactions really can't be.
4th edition D&D called this the "defender catch-22". If you're a tank, one side of the catch-22 is that attacking you means going up against high defenses and HP. But the other side is punishing people for going up against your allies, either through things like champion reactions and other debuffs to attack your buddies or extreme damage output so that ignoring you puts the monsters in a bad place.
This swashbuckler has one side of the catch-22, the sky-high defenses. But it doesn't have any incentive to attack those defenses, meaning the monsters can safely ignore it and murder its more relevant and vastly squishier allies.
Evil champions, of course, are a different story. And are indeed adamantine bricks just like monks and the above swashbuckler build are.
I wonder if the Panache mechanic couldn't operate via- "Psyching yourself up is easy, but staying in the groove is hard."
Which is to say that you gain panache trivially, but it tends to just fade away quickly if you can't maintain that "hot streak" by succeeding at stuff.
I like this hot streak idea. It inspires me to rework Panache as a sort of combo meter that goes down every round unless you keep it up. Very fitting thematically as you'd basically be gaining style points for showing off over and over, instead of doing something flashy only to revert back to the regular martial mindset of hitting stuff hard (with your finisher) over and over.
Could be implemented by allowing Panache to stack, with it counting down by 1 every round unless you gained or attempted to gain a stack of Panache or consumed one in that round. Each stack doesn't grant additional numerical bonuses, but it can be used to make consecutive 'finishers', and perhaps even enable more devastating finishers that use a greater amount of Panache stacks. This panache-stacking would combo really well with the bonus to your panache actions you gain while in Panache, which is otherwise rarely used (in my experience).
Of course, this would go best with your idea of making Panache generation easier.
EDIT: Adding a response to this text now that I've read it, since it goes along with what I'm saying:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Some tangible immediate benefit for doing things that would gain you panache while you already have panache, to encourage you to keep doing the awesome things.
Exactly my issue with Panache besides it being hard to generate; once you have it, you typically just want to go deal your damage instead of staying in the zone, which I think is a shame for a class all about showing off. Instead, as it is, you show off a bit, and then revert to an unga bunga melee strike, ad nauseam. I think a panache combo meter would help a lot with this, since there could be really cool finishers to try to use that would require a decent stack of panache, so you're encouraged to stay in the flow state until you have a big enough combo to use the awesome flashy move. All the while, you get to actually benefit from the panache bonus to your panache-generating actions.
Goading feint + dueling parry do have the unfortunate impact of making you into an adamantine brick. Namely, you deal smallish amounts of damage and are very hard to kill.
Being hard to kill is not inherently valuable. It just means the monsters ignore you and kill your party instead. If you're dealing a ton of damage or doing solid crowd control or healing other PCs, this is great, because it means the main party damage dealer/healer/controller isn't getting targeted and can keep doing their thing. But if you're dealing swashbuckler-level damage...I mean, why would anyone care? Why not IGNORE the lump of titanium just sitting there with sky-high defenses who pings for microscopic amounts of damage?
I also have to chuckle at any Finisher being called a microscopic amount of damage.
Yeah, I also have to chuckle a bit at the person comparing the damage of Confident Finisher to an entire combat round of a different character.
Goading Feint + Dueling Parry is the closest we have to the PF1 Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. But doing that defensive fighting combo in PF2 means only having one action left for attacking with.
Fortunately Swashbuckler can load all of their damage into that one attack.
There is more to overall balance than just total damage done during a round.
Yeah, I feel like people are putting too much stock in white room math where people never move.
When I played Swashbucklers for the well over three years that I have I moved around a lot.
When most people do combat routine comparisons, they generally compare two actions at a time to account for positioning and such. Swashbuckler finishers are inherently a two or three action routine between panache generation and the actual attack itself. Generally speaking, swashbucklers see more three action comparisons because of the three scenarios they typically find themselves in.
1) successful panache on first action using tumble for movement. Iirc (it has been literal years) the highest damage was found with a normal strike followed by a finisher.
2) failed panache generation. Followed by a second attempt leading into a finisher of successful or basic strike on failure.
3) tumble being unsuitable for generation and being forced to generate, move, finish/basic strike.
So it's not as strange as it looks to compare swashbuckler to three action routines of other classes.
Goading feint + dueling parry do have the unfortunate impact of making you into an adamantine brick. Namely, you deal smallish amounts of damage and are very hard to kill.
Being hard to kill is not inherently valuable. It just means the monsters ignore you and kill your party instead. If you're dealing a ton of damage or doing solid crowd control or healing other PCs, this is great, because it means the main party damage dealer/healer/controller isn't getting targeted and can keep doing their thing. But if you're dealing swashbuckler-level damage...I mean, why would anyone care? Why not IGNORE the lump of titanium just sitting there with sky-high defenses who pings for microscopic amounts of damage?
I also have to chuckle at any Finisher being called a microscopic amount of damage.
You just spent two actions raising your defenses all having the finisher ready does is continue to encourage the enemy to walk away more so you can't finisher -> feint -> parry next turn. The build doesn't really work that well until you get to double digits for dueling dance and/or mobile finisher to save on actions enough to keep your defenses high while outputting good damage.
Goading feint + dueling parry do have the unfortunate impact of making you into an adamantine brick. Namely, you deal smallish amounts of damage and are very hard to kill.
Being hard to kill is not inherently valuable. It just means the monsters ignore you and kill your party instead. If you're dealing a ton of damage or doing solid crowd control or healing other PCs, this is great, because it means the main party damage dealer/healer/controller isn't getting targeted and can keep doing their thing. But if you're dealing swashbuckler-level damage...I mean, why would anyone care? Why not IGNORE the lump of titanium just sitting there with sky-high defenses who pings for microscopic amounts of damage?
I also have to chuckle at any Finisher being called a microscopic amount of damage.
Well, we can do that math...
At level 11, a swashbuckler with a rapier is dealing 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (striking rune) + 4d6 (finisher) + 2d6 (property runes) + 3 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 8d6+5 ~ 33 points of damage, using two actions (one to get panache and one to make the finisher stab).
A level 11 dragon barbarian with a greataxe (standard "basic damage", nothing crazy like flurry ranger or rogue) is dealing 1d12 (base) + 1d12 (striking rune) + 2d6 (property runes) + 8 (rage and instinct) + 5 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 2d12+2d6+17 ~ 35 damage with one action. It gets even higher with a giant barbarian.
And the barbarian is making two attacks, because it costs an action to do that feint. Given there's a decent chance of failing the feint and not getting ANY finisher, I think that more than cancels out with the flat-footed accuracy boost you get from succeeding...
And meanwhile a level 11 elemental sorcerer casting cone of cold with dangerous sorcery is dealing 12d6+5 ~ 47 damage in a 60 foot cone, save half (23 points), rather than miss 4d6 (14) or half that (7) against a single target.
So yeah, in comparison to that it's pretty tiny amounts of damage.
Goading feint + dueling parry do have the unfortunate impact of making you into an adamantine brick. Namely, you deal smallish amounts of damage and are very hard to kill.
Being hard to kill is not inherently valuable. It just means the monsters ignore you and kill your party instead. If you're dealing a ton of damage or doing solid crowd control or healing other PCs, this is great, because it means the main party damage dealer/healer/controller isn't getting targeted and can keep doing their thing. But if you're dealing swashbuckler-level damage...I mean, why would anyone care? Why not IGNORE the lump of titanium just sitting there with sky-high defenses who pings for microscopic amounts of damage?
I also have to chuckle at any Finisher being called a microscopic amount of damage.
You just spent two actions raising your defenses all having the finisher ready does is continue to encourage the enemy to walk away more so you can't finisher -> feint -> parry next turn.
Maybe I am not describing the scenario well enough.
Feint, and therefore Goading Feint, have to be done at melee range. So this particular example round means that an enemy came over to me and attacked on their turn and ended their turn within my reach.
Now, at that point, I have plenty of options of what to do. One of those options is Goading Feint, Dueling Parry, Finisher.
If the enemy wants to move away from me after that, I'll come up with some plan to deal with that later.
So yeah, in comparison to that it's pretty tiny amounts of damage.
And how many of those comparison scenarios are being done with one action worth of damage and spending two actions doing something else like raising your defenses?
Some comparable options I can see:
Fighter steps away from an enemy and raises shield. How much damage do they do that round?
Rogue also uses Goading Feint and Dueling Parry. How much damage do they do that round?
Wizard casts Stoneskin. How much damage do they do that round?
Goading feint + dueling parry do have the unfortunate impact of making you into an adamantine brick. Namely, you deal smallish amounts of damage and are very hard to kill.
Being hard to kill is not inherently valuable. It just means the monsters ignore you and kill your party instead. If you're dealing a ton of damage or doing solid crowd control or healing other PCs, this is great, because it means the main party damage dealer/healer/controller isn't getting targeted and can keep doing their thing. But if you're dealing swashbuckler-level damage...I mean, why would anyone care? Why not IGNORE the lump of titanium just sitting there with sky-high defenses who pings for microscopic amounts of damage?
I also have to chuckle at any Finisher being called a microscopic amount of damage.
You just spent two actions raising your defenses all having the finisher ready does is continue to encourage the enemy to walk away more so you can't finisher -> feint -> parry next turn.
Maybe I am not describing the scenario well enough.
Feint, and therefore Goading Feint, have to be done at melee range. So this particular example round means that an enemy came over to me and attacked on their turn and ended their turn within my reach.
Now, at that point, I have plenty of options of what to do. One of those options is Goading Feint, Dueling Parry, Finisher.
If the enemy wants to move away from me after that, I'll come up with some plan to deal with that later.
The issue is that this presupposes the swashbuckler is a remotely attractive target.
They're not. They aren't actually that threatening compared to a sorcerer nuking the entire encounter with a cone of cold or a cleric healbot or a barbarian whose SINGLE attacks deal more than your entire finisher.
That's the problem with building an adamantine brick. It's great in theoretical 1 v. 1 combat, but in practice the monsters walk right past you (and you maybe opp attack them for, uh, 15 points of damage or so?) and maul the wizard.
Rogue also uses Goading Feint and Dueling Parry. How much damage do they do that round?
Oh, and uh... who says that you get a flanking buddy in that scenario? How about if you are trying to hold a chokepoint to protect some of your other squishier party members?
The issue is that this presupposes the swashbuckler is a remotely attractive target.
You are also presupposing. You are presupposing that the enemies aren't attacking me already. That they can reach my allies without getting through me first. That they don't consider me a threat - for some reason.
Shockingly, I do roll over a 12 on occasion. When I do, I can do some pretty significant amounts of damage. Enough damage that enemies are going to take note.
I'm also the one that is in the front waving a sword in their face.
You are presupposing some sort of 'ideal' tactics where enemies automatically recognize that the Gnome with a sword must be a swashbuckler and will charge past them to get to the weaponless human farther back because they automatically recognize that this human is a Wizard and not a Monk or Animal instinct Barbarian.
Rogue also uses Goading Feint and Dueling Parry. How much damage do they do that round?
Oh, and uh... who says that you get a flanking buddy in that scenario? How about if you are trying to hold a chokepoint to protect some of your other squishier party members?
Well, nobody says that, but it's probably true. Gang Up exists for a reason, and if your party is coordinated you'll have a champion, fighter, barbarian, or someone else with a reach weapon to give you flat-footed - even in a choke point. Or you won't be holding a choke point, since that's somewhat contrived.
If you are holding a choke point, the wizard's action is a much more reasonable wall of stone or wall of force to bisect the monster posse and allow your party to trivially slaughter them because they're only at half numerical strength. Which is quite a bit more effective than standing there trading hits.
But anyway...rogue damage looks like...
1d6 (base rapier) + 1d6 (striking runes) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 2d6 (property runes) + 5 (full Dex modifier rather than Strength!) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 7d6 + 7 ~ 31.5 points per hit. Except the rogue gets to make two attacks because opportune backstabber or Nimble Roll are probably a thing, and the rogue flat-footed on every attack because gang up.
Assuming the rogue only gets one attack, of course, which isn't really a good assumption except in the somewhat contrived situation of choke points (it happens, but not often...). In that case, they get THREE such attacks (four with preparation at level 12!), for roughly triple or quadruple the swashbuckler's damage.
In place of Opportune Backstabber, you can of course take Nimble Strike to whack people who have the temerity to stab you, and get off another 31 points of damage. Like you do.
Have I mentioned debilitations yet? Because they get those too, and thus the monsters are also enfeebled or taking 2d6 bonus sneak attack damage or just always flat-footed from Precise Debilitations.
Don't go up against rogues in a damage competition. You won't win.
I have nothing against Rogues. I adventure with one.
But now we are talking about party tactics rather than single round whiteroom damage. And that is a much more useful type of comparison to be making.
However, it is also a much more complicated one.
I don't find that my damage is lagging by all that much. If at all. When I don't do much damage - or any damage - for a round it is usually because I rolled badly rather than anything else. And that particular curse affects all of the party, not just me.
In general - overall impression on my particular party's results: I do about the same amount of damage as the Rogue and Magus in the party. But I take quite a bit less damage and have more HP to start with. When we had a Fighter (sometimes sword and shield, sometimes 2-hand weapon), the Fighter would generally do more damage with the 2-hand weapon but would also take more damage than I would, and when using shield would do about the same amount of damage as me but would also take little to no damage.
I have nothing against Rogues. I adventure with one.
But now we are talking about party tactics rather than single round whiteroom damage. And that is a much more useful type of comparison to be making.
However, it is also a much more complicated one.
I don't find that my damage is lagging by all that much. If at all. When I don't do much damage - or any damage - for a round it is usually because I rolled badly rather than anything else. And that particular curse affects all of the party, not just me.
In general - overall impression on my particular party's results: I do about the same amount of damage as the Rogue and Magus in the party. But I take quite a bit less damage and have more HP to start with. When we had a Fighter (sometimes sword and shield, sometimes 2-hand weapon), the Fighter would generally do more damage with the 2-hand weapon but would also take more damage than I would, and when using shield would do about the same amount of damage as me but would also take little to no damage.
And for the record, that's totally fair.
When I've played/seen swashbucklers in combat, they've always seemed a little sad - I'm glad that's not your experience!
(I've seen/done fencer and battle dancer for the record)
It's just my experience that at higher level, other martial characters hit like a bus, whereas the swashbuckler is usually lagging pretty far behind and plinking for 20-30 points of damage per round. Things like flurry rangers (four attacks dealing 4d6+7 at basically no MAP is horrifying at level 11, never mind the multiclassed rogue sneak attack damage on top), kineticists (7d8+5 in a 30 foot cone at-will, anyone?), psychics (imaginary weapon deals 11d8+5 damage to two targets for a focus point? Sign me up!), magus with psychic dedication (see above, but now add weapon damage and ranged turreting to the mix) or the aforementioned rogue or barbarian do nightmarish amounts of damage, and I've never seen a swashbuckler make up for it with toughness.
But really, the important thing is that people have fun.
At level 11, a swashbuckler with a rapier is dealing 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (striking rune) + 4d6 (finisher) + 2d6 (property runes) + 3 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 8d6+5 ~ 33 points of damage, using two actions (one to get panache and one to make the finisher stab).
A level 11 dragon barbarian with a greataxe (standard "basic damage", nothing crazy like flurry ranger or rogue) is dealing 1d12 (base) + 1d12 (striking rune) + 2d6 (property runes) + 8 (rage and instinct) + 5 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 2d12+2d6+17 ~ 35 damage with one action. It gets even higher with a giant barbarian.
And the barbarian is making two attacks, because it costs an action to do that feint. Given there's a decent chance of failing the feint and not getting ANY finisher, I think that more than cancels out with the flat-footed accuracy boost you get from succeeding...
And meanwhile a level 11 elemental sorcerer casting cone of cold with dangerous sorcery is dealing 12d6+5 ~ 47 damage in a 60 foot cone, save half (23 points), rather than miss 4d6 (14) or half...
So, you're talking about a level 11 swashbuckler... but you're not including the effects of the particular finisher in any way? Like, even Confident Finisher gives you damage on miss. Bleeding Finisher (available at level 8) will slap on a 4d6 bleed damage to the above. Dual Finisher and Impaling Finisher are a bit harder to set up, but they can increase the damage significantly when you can pull them off.
Now, I'm not saying that the swash doesn't have issues. It does... it's just that you're overselling it a touch.
By those standards champions are bad tanks too. Their damage is half that of other martials, but they're very difficult to kill.
I mean a whole part of the Champion gimmick is that they punish you for not attacking them.
If they didn't have those reactions they would be kinda lame. It's one of the reasons why the evil champions are often considered to be so much less effective than their good counterparts.
At level 11, a swashbuckler with a rapier is dealing 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (striking rune) + 4d6 (finisher) + 2d6 (property runes) + 3 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 8d6+5 ~ 33 points of damage, using two actions (one to get panache and one to make the finisher stab).
A level 11 dragon barbarian with a greataxe (standard "basic damage", nothing crazy like flurry ranger or rogue) is dealing 1d12 (base) + 1d12 (striking rune) + 2d6 (property runes) + 8 (rage and instinct) + 5 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 2d12+2d6+17 ~ 35 damage with one action. It gets even higher with a giant barbarian.
And the barbarian is making two attacks, because it costs an action to do that feint. Given there's a decent chance of failing the feint and not getting ANY finisher, I think that more than cancels out with the flat-footed accuracy boost you get from succeeding...
And meanwhile a level 11 elemental sorcerer casting cone of cold with dangerous sorcery is dealing 12d6+5 ~ 47 damage in a 60 foot cone, save half (23 points), rather than miss 4d6 (14) or half...
So, you're talking about a level 11 swashbuckler... but you're not including the effects of the particular finisher in any way? Like, even Confident Finisher gives you damage on miss. Bleeding Finisher (available at level 8) will slap on a 4d6 bleed damage to the above. Dual Finisher and Impaling Finisher are a bit harder to set up, but they can increase the damage significantly when you can pull them off.
Now, I'm not saying that the swash doesn't have issues. It does... it's just that you're overselling it a touch.
I mentioned the 4d6/2 ~ 7 whole damage (4d6 with a feat) miss when comparing to sorcerer - didn't mention comparing to barbarian, though. I was defaulting to Confident Finisher because I also didn't give the barbarian or sorcerer any real feats (except, well, dangerous sorcery, but that's a cheap level 1 feat and practically a class feature given how good it is).
Still, save half for the sorcerer still deals 23 damage, which is higher than 4d6 ~ 14 (and that is assuming a level 6 feat that is competing with Attack of Opportunity...). Especially since it hits all targets. And as noted, the barbarian does get another attack and doesn't have to rely on not failing the feint check.
Failing the feint check is catastrophic for the swashbuckler, and I've played a fencer. It happens a lot more than you wish it did.
At level 11, a swashbuckler with a rapier is dealing 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (striking rune) + 4d6 (finisher) + 2d6 (property runes) + 3 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 8d6+5 ~ 33 points of damage, using two actions (one to get panache and one to make the finisher stab).
A level 11 dragon barbarian with a greataxe (standard "basic damage", nothing crazy like flurry ranger or rogue) is dealing 1d12 (base) + 1d12 (striking rune) + 2d6 (property runes) + 8 (rage and instinct) + 5 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 2d12+2d6+17 ~ 35 damage with one action. It gets even higher with a giant barbarian.
And the barbarian is making two attacks, because it costs an action to do that feint. Given there's a decent chance of failing the feint and not getting ANY finisher, I think that more than cancels out with the flat-footed accuracy boost you get from succeeding...
I mean, that's base Confident Finisher and presupposing those two actions started in melee. That said, let's drop some sample numbers.
Level 11 is High AC 31, DC 28/31 for Low/Moderate saves. To-hit on both is +22. Swash can have +21 to Tumble and +19 to Feint.
Swashbuckler hits for 33, which turns into an average of 30.6 after accounting for flat-footed. Add 1.75 for Confident, and 3.5 for Precise. Ballpark double that instead if they can do Impaling or Dual Finisher.
Barbarian hits for 35, averaging into 24.5 on the first swing and 14 on the second.
So yes, the swashbuckler averages a little less with 32.3 at base finisher as opposed to 38.5. The better available finishers compare closer to 61.2 in the case of the multi-targets, and 30.6 + ~14-42 in the case of bleeding. Ability to riposte spikes this quite a bit, however, with that adding on another 18 on average assuming no panache - and riposte is really not that hard to get. And in this case, it also guarantees easy flat-footed for everyone else in the party.
At level 11, a swashbuckler with a rapier is dealing 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (striking rune) + 4d6 (finisher) + 2d6 (property runes) + 3 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 8d6+5 ~ 33 points of damage, using two actions (one to get panache and one to make the finisher stab).
A level 11 dragon barbarian with a greataxe (standard "basic damage", nothing crazy like flurry ranger or rogue) is dealing 1d12 (base) + 1d12 (striking rune) + 2d6 (property runes) + 8 (rage and instinct) + 5 (strength modifier) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 2d12+2d6+17 ~ 35 damage with one action. It gets even higher with a giant barbarian.
And the barbarian is making two attacks, because it costs an action to do that feint. Given there's a decent chance of failing the feint and not getting ANY finisher, I think that more than cancels out with the flat-footed accuracy boost you get from succeeding...
I mean, that's base Confident Finisher and presupposing those two actions started in melee. That said, let's drop some sample numbers.
Level 11 is High AC 31, DC 28/31 for Low/Moderate saves. To-hit on both is +22. Swash can have +21 to Tumble and +19 to Feint.
Swashbuckler hits for 33, which turns into an average of 30.6 after accounting for flat-footed. Add 1.75 for Confident, and 3.5 for Precise. Ballpark double that instead if they can do Impaling or Dual Finisher.
Barbarian hits for 35, averaging into 24.5 on the first swing and 14 on the second.
So yes, the swashbuckler averages a little less with 32.3 at base finisher as opposed to 38.5. The better available finishers compare closer to 61.2 in the case of the multi-targets, and 30.6 + ~14-42 in the case of bleeding. Ability to riposte spikes this quite a bit, however, with that adding on another 18 on average assuming no panache - and riposte is really not that hard to get. And in this case, it also guarantees easy flat-footed for everyone else in the party.
You're really assuming perfect positioning on that swashbuckler I have to say. Especially given the swashbuckler does not actually have the move actions to perform said perfect positioning. And also looking at the single-target math...
math:
Expectation value of the attack is formally:
(chance of getting finisher at all) * (chance of hitting * hit damage with finisher + chance of missing * miss damage) +
(chance of not getting finisher) * (chance of hitting * non finisher damage)
Finisher probability against moderate saves is +21 Tumble vs. DC 31, as you say, so succeed on a 10. So only 55% chance of getting it and 45% chance of not getting it (and you're provoking AoO, which isn't usually relevant but hurts when it is).
Chance of hitting with flat-footed is hitting on a 7, critting on a 17, against effective AC 29 with +22 to hit (+11 levels + 4 proficiency + 5 ability modifier + 2 item) as you say. So 50% chance of hitting, 30% chance of missing, 20% chance of critting.
Non-finisher damage is a mere 2d6 (base and striking) + 2d6 (property runes) + 5 ~ 19.
All together:
0.55 * (0.5 * 33 + 0.2 * 70.5 [deadly] + 0.3 * 14 [we'll be nice and give you a feat) + 0.45 * (0.5 * 19 + 0.2 * 42.5) = 27 points
tl;dr it's only 27 expected damage, which is substantially lower than the barbarian numbers.
But more to the point, if we're going for the "multi-target is double the value" and "we get perfect positioning" argument...then we should perhaps compare with the sorcerer. Who is hitting what, three or four people for 47 damage apiece? Saves are +18 or +21, as you say, and sorcerer DC is 10 + 11 + 5 + 4 = 30. So monsters save on a 9 (50% of the time), crit succeed on a 19 (10% of the time). Crit fail on a nat 1 (5% of the time). 35% normal fail chance.
So...
3 or 4 * (0.35 * 47 + 0.05 * 94 + 0.5 * 23) = 98 or 130 expected damage (32.5 per target)
So double the swashbuckler in the best case scenario for the swashbuckler.
Riposte is NOT that easy to get, especially if the monsters (justifiably) decide you're not worth attacking. I definitely wouldn't say that "a monster crit fails an attack against you" is going to happen more frequently than the barbarian making an opportunity attack...
1 - yes, the swash is going to deal less damage than a two-handed barbarian on each hit because that's how weapons work. The barbarian is paying for that extra damage by having 3 less AC, for instance. Similarly, yes the swash is going to do less damage than a top level spell, because again, that's how the numbers are designed. That's all basic design math - that the tradeoffs that are happening have costs as a result.
2 - the swash has significantly more support tools built in automatically. For instance, fencer makes its targets off-guard, which is a free helper that makes a lot of people very happy (the spell attack psychic you like to trot out, for instance, gets a big boost there). A lot of the other ones should be insanely obvious as well, with gymnast and wit being especially far up there.
3 - I've absolutely never seen a GM go "it's not worth it to target the swashbuckler", first. And if you really keep getting that, that's what AoO is for - it's really not hard to lean into that in ways that force one or the other to happen. Also, if they do that and you're *not* punishing their incredibly silly positioning as a result, that's on you.
Much like casters, you can target multiple saves. Use that. High fort? Trip them or tumble. Even if you can't target the weakest save targetting the mediocre one will work more often than not, especially as you level.
The point has nothing to do with saves and was showing that panache generation had numerous failure points that make it a problematic mechanic. Saves is but one of many.
1 - yes, the swash is going to deal less damage than a two-handed barbarian on each hit because that's how weapons work. The barbarian is paying for that extra damage by having 3 less AC, for instance. Similarly, yes the swash is going to do less damage than a top level spell, because again, that's how the numbers are designed. That's all basic design math - that the tradeoffs that are happening have costs as a result.
2 - the swash has significantly more support tools built in automatically. For instance, fencer makes its targets off-guard, which is a free helper that makes a lot of people very happy (the spell attack psychic you like to trot out, for instance, gets a big boost there). A lot of the other ones should be insanely obvious as well, with gymnast and wit being especially far up there.
3 - I've absolutely never seen a GM go "it's not worth it to target the swashbuckler", first. And if you really keep getting that, that's what AoO is for - it's really not hard to lean into that in ways that force one or the other to happen. Also, if they do that and you're *not* punishing their incredibly silly positioning as a result, that's on you.
I have absolutely seen a GM target others first instead of the swashbuckler due to the swash being a lesser threat. If you're in a group with a barbarian, they are easier to hit and do far more damage. Better to kill them first. Unfortunately, not many can do that against a giant barbarian with even moderately competent healers. The giant barbarian is an absolute battlefield wrecker.
I have absolutely seen a GM target others first instead of the swashbuckler due to the swash being a lesser threat. If you're in a group with a barbarian, they are easier to hit and do far more damage. Better to kill them first. Unfortunately, not many can do that against a giant barbarian with even moderately competent healers. The giant barbarian is an absolute battlefield wrecker.
The Giant Barb... has lower AC than any other character, and no more HP than any other kind of barbarian. Sure, they deal out big damage numbers. That's what they're *for*. They'd take a lot more crits, though. It seems like it would take more than just "a moderately competent healer" to cover for that, especially if you were running a standard adventuring day that wasn't built specifically to be caster-friendly.
I have absolutely seen a GM target others first instead of the swashbuckler due to the swash being a lesser threat. If you're in a group with a barbarian, they are easier to hit and do far more damage. Better to kill them first. Unfortunately, not many can do that against a giant barbarian with even moderately competent healers. The giant barbarian is an absolute battlefield wrecker.
The Giant Barb... has lower AC than any other character, and no more HP than any other kind of barbarian. Sure, they deal out big damage numbers. That's what they're *for*. They'd take a lot more crits, though. It seems like it would take more than just "a moderately competent healer" to cover for that, especially if you were running a standard adventuring day that wasn't built specifically to be caster-friendly.
Barbarians start off hard to keep up, but become easy at higher level. Barbarians scale well.
I think... I think that one answer might just be Flourish. Like, the swashbuckler doesn't get a single action that has flourish. That's ridiculous. "Flourish" is something that a swashbuckler should be doing all the time. By comparison, "Finisher" is just... kind of meh, you know? I mean, what does the idea of "finisher" have to do with sashbuckling, anyway?
You know, the idea that I got from this is, what if the thing that Swashbucklers got was the ability to use multiple Flourish actions in a round? That could be their special thing that no one else gets.
Mathematically, I don't know if that is too much. Or not enough. But it would be *interesting*.
I don't catch your idea. It's remove the finisher and make the Panache allow a constant mechanic?
- Remove finishers as a concept. Tie the swashbuckler special sauce to flourishes instead. Tweak it in such a way that they aren't all immediately rushing to Monk to grab FoB.
- Don't "spend" panache. Once you get panache, you have it until you lose it. You lose it if you hit a bunch of fail all at once, and then you need to grab it again.
- Various suggestions for ways to get panache and what it means to fail hard enough to lose it.
- Some tangible immediate benefit for doing things that would gain you panache while you already have panache, to encourage you to keep doing the awesome things. In this particular case, a free action immediate-use flourish ability that lets you make a strike - thus both opening up your action economy a bit and giving you the built-in flourish that the class needs to make its flourish abilities actually go.
I LOVE the idea of starting with Panache but having to Do Cool Things to maintain it! Never thought of that idea before, but it works so well. I think what excites people about the class in 2e is the 'risk/reward' design idea, which mechanically rewards you for doing flashy things. It is a perfect example of 2e's design principle of "using mechanics to support roleplay". They got it half right, but as people have noted in this and other threads, the gain panache - spend it on a finisher loop doesn't quite nail it, even leaving aside the maths balancing. And as people have noted above, if anything we want mechanics that encourage sawshbucklers to stay in panache.
The remastered Warrior Bard can maintain Courageous Anthem (aka Inspire Courage) for an additional round by doing damage with a Strike. We could take that extremely well-received design and apply it here, by ONLY maintaining Panache by doing damage with a Strike, succeeding at Tumble through or the subclass skill action (Bon Mot, Demoralise, etc), or by "succeeding at a check to perform a particularly daring action, such as swinging on a chandelier or sliding down a drapery" (as per the existing rules for gaining panache).
Next, I think you'd want to increase the benefits of staying in panache. I'm not one for digging into the maths minutiae so others are better placed to think about balance, but perhaps up the damage bonus to +3, grant +1 to saving throws as well as relevant skill checks, a (limited use) roll with advantage or re-roll a failed save to capture the idea of succeeding through sheer bravado, things like that. New Feats could offer these or expanded options.
Lastly, I think After You should simply be a core class feature. It's great, thematic, and gives a guaranteed access to panache.
(On a lesser side note, one of the weird quirks of current panache generation is that it pushes you to target a minion for your panache-generating power, before attacking the boss with your finisher. That breaks the fantasy. As others have said, we want the swashbuckler to be targeting the boss, not the mooks. I don't know the best way to do that without allowing panache even on failed checks against +level targets).
I think... I think that one answer might just be Flourish. Like, the swashbuckler doesn't get a single action that has flourish. That's ridiculous. "Flourish" is something that a swashbuckler should be doing all the time. By comparison, "Finisher" is just... kind of meh, you know? I mean, what does the idea of "finisher" have to do with sashbuckling, anyway?
You know, the idea that I got from this is, what if the thing that Swashbucklers got was the ability to use multiple Flourish actions in a round? That could be their special thing that no one else gets.
Mathematically, I don't know if that is too much. Or not enough. But it would be *interesting*.
I mean any flourishes it got in that case effectively wouldn't have flourish outside of multiclassing in to them, so they would probably be weaker and would probably just make multiclassing into monk or ranger really good for their 1 action 2 attack flourishes.
I do really like the cool things = panache that swash has. A good GM could leverage that with intricate maps to let that really shine. GM fiat for panache should be more acknowledged. At least as the class is right now. Could still do with better straight forward ways to get your mechanics moving.
On the expectation that a smaller tweak to the existing design is far more likely for the Remaster, my priorities would be:
1. Auto-scaling Acrobatics, or better yet, the subclass skill.
2. Easier access to Panache: After You should be a core class feature, as mentioned above; perhaps you could gain Panache any time you Critically Succeed any d20 check; the aforementioned clarifications around mindless creatures and the like; changing the level-based DC for creative flair actions and One for All from Very Hard to Standard; things like that.
3. Reasons to stay in Panache: perhaps up the damage bonus to +3, grant +1 to saving throws as well as relevant skill checks, a (limited use) roll with advantage or re-roll a failed save to capture the idea of succeeding through sheer bravado, things like that. New Feats could offer these or expanded options.
4. Fixing the maths around DPR, but I will leave that to others (noting that IMHO the correct relevant reference should be a 1H finesse martial, not a 2H Str martial which is what I usually see)
5. Give them the old pre-errata disarm & trip with finesse weapons ability, or their own version of the new rogue 'disarm with thievery' ability. Swashies should be the #1 disarm class in the game, but right now they are the worst out of all martials at it.
My guess would be if anything changes, it'll be auto scaling acrobatics. I'll probably be happy with that but I'd like to see some kind of easier panache change.
My guess would be if anything changes, it'll be auto scaling acrobatics. I'll probably be happy with that but I'd like to see some kind of easier panache change.
Yeah sadly auto-scaling Acrobatics is nowhere near enough to save the class - that can be accomplished via the simple expedient of the Acrobat dedication. To fix the "what do you mean, damage?" issues would require a more thorough rework.
I think it would be interesting to explore +DPR buffs via giving a circumstance bonus to attack rolls rather than increasing the precision damage. IMHO this would feel more in line with what Panache should be doing for you in combat. You're basically succeeding more often through sheer bravado and confidence.
What would happen if Panache's +1 circumstance bonus applied to attack rolls? That would be roughly a ~15% DPR increase, yeah?
The more I think about this, the more I think expanding the +1 circumstance bonus from Panache to ALL skill checks, attack rolls and saving throws is a good idea. Succeed through sheer bravado!
From all the discussions here and elsewhere, I don't think it would be TOO strong either (depending on what other buffs one was giving the class). But I would defer to others who are better at diving into the maths to answer that question.
The more I think about this, the more I think expanding the +1 circumstance bonus from Panache to ALL skill checks, attack rolls and saving throws is a good idea. Succeed through sheer bravado!
From all the discussions here and elsewhere, I don't think it would be TOO strong either (depending on what other buffs one was giving the class). But I would defer to others who are better at diving into the maths to answer that question.
that is what heroism do
would swashbuckler have panache 1 2 3 for heroism level 3 6 9
other than flat footed circumstance bonus and penalty are more rare and valuable than status
pretty sure if paizo give bonus on everything it would be status
pretty sure if paizo give bonus on everything it would be status
At the moment Panache is a circumstance bonus, so that's what I was using. I can see why status bonus might make more sense, though that then means no synergy with bards' inspire courage or marshal auras, as well as heroism.
pretty sure if paizo give bonus on everything it would be status
At the moment Panache is a circumstance bonus, so that's what I was using. I can see why status bonus might make more sense, though that then means no synergy with bards' inspire courage or marshal auras, as well as heroism.
so player doesn't stack buff everything
base on feat like incredible aim
plus 2 circumstance bonus on attack should cost 1 action
so not unthinkable for attack that require 1 action reload get plus 2 circumstance bonus if it was a specific finisher
