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Well I'm pleasantly surprised by the remastered Rogue.
For the optimizers out there Rogue build used to be totally dominated by building around the feat Opportune Backstab. Which allowed you a no MAP Strike triggered when an allies Strike hit. I was half expected this to be slightly nerfed. But no Paizo doubled down by providing another competing reaction.
Nimble Strike (Feat 10) When you use your Nimble Dodge Reaction, you can make a melee Strike against the triggering creature.
Given that Nimble doge triggers on an attack or with Nimble Roll a Reflex save this is going to happen a lot.
So there is now no longer one optimised path for the Rogue. We have two and all the hydrids in between.
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I'm just happy with the weapon changes. Ruffian rogue's martial access opens up a much wider range of characters than before; this is great for people like me who really aren't mechanically interested in the fighter
Rogue is still rolling strong.
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I disagree on the whole "no longer one optimized path" bit; Nimble Strike requires 2 feats (3 if you want to include Nimble Roll), whereas Opportune Backstab is only 1, and triggers much more reliably.
Larger enemies can just outreach your reactionary attacks, and Reflex-based effects likely won't be done while you are adjacent to them, meaning the odds of Nimble Strike triggering are very slim, if at all.
Now, if you have reach yourself, this might not be as big of an issue, but Rogues walking around with Reach weapons all the time isn't exactly commonplace (even with the Remaster factored in).
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The big one for me is the gang up buff. Giving allies the same automatic off-guard you get means you can think even less about positioning. Especially if you have the elf branched spear or the dancer spear or the bladed scarf for reach.
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I disagree on the whole "no longer one optimized path" bit; Nimble Strike requires 2 feats (3 if you want to include Nimble Roll), whereas Opportune Backstab is only 1, and triggers much more reliably.
Larger enemies can just outreach your reactionary attacks, and Reflex-based effects likely won't be done while you are adjacent to them, meaning the odds of Nimble Strike triggering are very slim, if at all.
Now, if you have reach yourself, this might not be as big of an issue, but Rogues walking around with Reach weapons all the time isn't exactly commonplace (even with the Remaster factored in).
It takes two feats, but one of them is essentially the default level one feat for rogues. That's not an incredibly steep cost if most rogues were already paying it.
Opportune Backstab doesn't work if the enemy is outside of your melee reach, rither. Both feats have that problem. Nimble Strike is better if you are skirmishing, and opportune backstab is better if you're staying in flank with an ally who is more likely to draw aggro than you.
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I disagree on the whole "no longer one optimized path" bit; Nimble Strike requires 2 feats (3 if you want to include Nimble Roll), whereas Opportune Backstab is only 1, and triggers much more reliably.
Larger enemies can just outreach your reactionary attacks, and Reflex-based effects likely won't be done while you are adjacent to them, meaning the odds of Nimble Strike triggering are very slim, if at all.
Now, if you have reach yourself, this might not be as big of an issue, but Rogues walking around with Reach weapons all the time isn't exactly commonplace (even with the Remaster factored in).
It takes two feats, but one of them is essentially the default level one feat for rogues. That's not an incredibly steep cost if most rogues were already paying it.
Opportune Backstab doesn't work if the enemy is outside of your melee reach, rither. Both feats have that problem. Nimble Strike is better if you are skirmishing, and opportune backstab is better if you're staying in flank with an ally who is more likely to draw aggro than you.
I think there is a shift that is going to happen in the meta analysis of PF2 as people realize that standing around in melee reach of powerful enemies is incredibly dangerous, especially as automatic knockdowns from weapon crit specializations go away. A higher level solo enemy is going to shred parties that try to just rush up and surround it, faster in the remastered game than previously.
The Maul/meteor hammer fighter (or giant barbarian) + Melee Rogue + Cleric + Bard "uber party" is getting taken down a significant peg in the remastered game by some subtle rules changes. I think this is a big part of why people fear the death and dying rules are going to be so lethal at their tables.
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Going for Nimble Roll, Nimble Strike and Preparation looks like a super defense focused version of Opportune Backstab, Precise/Vicious Debilitations and Preparation.
Going for both is impossible until level 16 though, and you would need to sacrifice some high level goodies for it.
The big one for me is the gang up buff. Giving allies the same automatic off-guard you get means you can think even less about positioning. Especially if you have the elf branched spear or the dancer spear or the bladed scarf for reach.
My mind RN is at a FA human thief rogue wielding a chain sword with Kineticist dedication for Water and Wind impulses like Deflecting Wave, Ocean's Balm, Four Winds, Clear as Air or Cyclonic Ascent.
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I think there is a shift that is going to happen in the meta analysis of PF2 as people realize that standing around in melee reach of powerful enemies is incredibly dangerous, especially as automatic knockdowns from weapon crit specializations go away. A higher level solo enemy is going to shred parties that try to just rush up and surround it, faster in the remastered game than previously.
The Maul/meteor hammer fighter (or giant barbarian) + Melee Rogue + Cleric + Bard "uber party" is getting taken down a significant peg in the remastered game by some subtle rules changes. I think this is a big part of why people fear the death and dying rules are going to be so lethal at their tables.
It really isn't. Improved knockdown is still an auto trip. Reflex is still the most common low save in the mid and late game so manual trip or regular knockdown is still very effective. Wolf drag is an auto trip. Bola shot arrows are a dime a dozen and auto prone with chance of stun. Cast down cleric using rank 1 harms is close to automatic prone. It's positively trivial to inflict for any party that wants to.
I do expect lots of kusarigama though. B/S typing, reach, trip and knife spec to act as a psuedo deadly. Or guisarmes for exploiting hazardous terrain, trip and the base d10 damage. Rogues will just stick with bladed scarves and elven branched spears as they have been though.
We'll see. I mean, nobody wants their character to get knocked out all the time, but sudden charging across a room and then following that up with a second strike is something I see happening often in play. Improved Knockdown is a level 10 feat still, I assume? Your whole party has to survive to get there, and I just don't see prone-locking solo monsters with lots of reaction attacks ready to prime as soon as the creature stands as reliable a strategy in the remaster as it was previously. Especially early on, I think parties that try to build for it are going to find themselves getting mauled into unconsciousness fairly often, and character will die if the party tries to count on healing to counter monster damage from full rounds of attacking.
I am not saying it has suddenly become a terrible strategy, I just don't think it will be quite as reliable and that parties that build for it will see characters die fairly more often than before the remaster.
If anything, these strats got even better, Unicore, since they rarely went down besides ulucky crit streaks that would down any other party anyway.
Cleric and Druid got buffed significantly. Witch can flex in the non-bard caster slot now as well (or even bench the Bard in the case of resentment).
Rogue is better than ever.
If cleric is something to go by, Champion might get a lot of love as well in core 2, which was a very strong martial counterpart for the heal caster slot.
Like, what has gotten worse about Knockdown bot + Rogue parties exactly?
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We'll see. I mean, nobody wants their character to get knocked out all the time, but sudden charging across a room and then following that up with a second strike is something I see happening often in play. Improved Knockdown is a level 10 feat still, I assume? Your whole party has to survive to get there, and I just don't see prone-locking solo monsters with lots of reaction attacks ready to prime as soon as the creature stands as reliable a strategy in the remaster as it was previously. Especially early on, I think parties that try to build for it are going to find themselves getting mauled into unconsciousness fairly often, and character will die if the party tries to count on healing to counter monster damage from full rounds of attacking.
I am not saying it has suddenly become a terrible strategy, I just don't think it will be quite as reliable and that parties that build for it will see characters die fairly more often than before the remaster.
I rolled Athletics checks and built up Athletics for the first 10 levels of my character. It isn't changing much.
Athletics is one of the highest value skills in the game. Almost every strength-based melee will max it to Legendary. I always max an item bonus. My barb has a +2 circumstance bonus while raging.
Athletics has a lot of support. Tripping still won't be a problem.
It's going to make monsters weaker and the maul will likely no longer be the weapon of choice given Class DC is often lower and less well supported than a high athletics. I imagine weapons like the Ogre Pick or anything with Trip will now be the higher value weapon.
Those are the main changes I'm expecting. Monsters and ACs like wolves or dogs much weaker. Dex and Reflex saves will be an even higher value save than before. Trip weapons will replace hammers and flails. Trip will still be the uber maneuver.
If anything, these strats got even better, Unicore, since they rarely went down besides ulucky crit streaks that would down any other party anyway.
Cleric and Druid got buffed significantly. Witch can flex in the non-bard caster slot now as well (or even bench the Bard in the case of resentment).
Rogue is better than ever.
If cleric is something to go by, Champion might get a lot of love as well in core 2, which was a very strong martial counterpart for the heal caster slot.
Like, what has gotten worse about Knockdown bot + Rogue parties exactly?
Witch definitely jumped up the caster ladder now. That Resentment Witch looks brutal to me. Stick a slow or synesthesia on and even on a success, they ain't getting off with a witch. Just going to be painful for solo mobs.
It's going to make monsters weaker and the maul will likely no longer be the weapon of choice given Class DC is often lower and less well supported than a high athletics. I imagine weapons like the Ogre Pick or anything with Trip will now be the higher value weapon.
When going for Knockdown builds, I prefer reach over Maul, even with current hammer crit spec. Probably biased since my excperience with the Maul comes from a Barbarian and not a Fighter, though.
Even then I think I would still pick a Guisarme. I also like polearms more from an aesthetic standpoint.
I disagree on the whole "no longer one optimized path" bit; Nimble Strike requires 2 feats (3 if you want to include Nimble Roll), whereas Opportune Backstab is only 1, and triggers much more reliably.
Larger enemies can just outreach your reactionary attacks, and Reflex-based effects likely won't be done while you are adjacent to them, meaning the odds of Nimble Strike triggering are very slim, if at all.
Now, if you have reach yourself, this might not be as big of an issue, but Rogues walking around with Reach weapons all the time isn't exactly commonplace (even with the Remaster factored in).
It takes two feats, but one of them is essentially the default level one feat for rogues. That's not an incredibly steep cost if most rogues were already paying it.
Opportune Backstab doesn't work if the enemy is outside of your melee reach, rither. Both feats have that problem. Nimble Strike is better if you are skirmishing, and opportune backstab is better if you're staying in flank with an ally who is more likely to draw aggro than you.
I suppose, given that Level 1 Rogue feats are a pretty bad range selection, and they otherwise don't have a Reaction to utilize. (Only class I know of that is worse are Champions, but then again, they have half of the available Level 1 feats that Rogues otherwise get.) That being said, if the difference is one feat, then Opportune Backstab is both more reliable to trigger, and is available earlier, so it's still no contest.
The problem with saying that it works for skirmishing is that you have to still be in melee range when you are affected by a Strike or Reflex save effect, and if you are skirmishing, you are never in range of the enemy at any point outside of your turn, meaning it will never reasonably trigger, and the odds of being adjacent to an enemy imposing a Reflex save is infinitesimally small. Even during your turn, enemies with AoOs are likely to punish you before you can even attack.
At-best, it will have use against enemies whom are medium sized and don't have a reach attack, but at the levels where you acquire Nimble Strike, it becomes less and less common, and at-worst, it's basically a trap option. And as stated before, it's also not a viable tactic when you have enemies that walk around with AoOs, which likely occurs before you can make a reactionary attack.
I disagree on the whole "no longer one optimized path" bit; Nimble Strike requires 2 feats (3 if you want to include Nimble Roll), whereas Opportune Backstab is only 1, and triggers much more reliably.
Larger enemies can just outreach your reactionary attacks, and Reflex-based effects likely won't be done while you are adjacent to them, meaning the odds of Nimble Strike triggering are very slim, if at all.
Now, if you have reach yourself, this might not be as big of an issue, but Rogues walking around with Reach weapons all the time isn't exactly commonplace (even with the Remaster factored in).
It takes two feats, but one of them is essentially the default level one feat for rogues. That's not an incredibly steep cost if most rogues were already paying it.
Opportune Backstab doesn't work if the enemy is outside of your melee reach, rither. Both feats have that problem. Nimble Strike is better if you are skirmishing, and opportune backstab is better if you're staying in flank with an ally who is more likely to draw aggro than you.
I think there is a shift that is going to happen in the meta analysis of PF2 as people realize that standing around in melee reach of powerful enemies is incredibly dangerous, especially as automatic knockdowns from weapon crit specializations go away. A higher level solo enemy is going to shred parties that try to just rush up and surround it, faster in the remastered game than previously.
The Maul/meteor hammer fighter (or giant barbarian) + Melee Rogue + Cleric + Bard "uber party" is getting taken down a significant peg in the remastered game by some subtle rules changes. I think this is a big part of why people fear the death and dying rules are going to be so lethal at their tables.
That's always been the case, but it's not just a matter of "standing around in melee reach of powerful enemies" anymore, it's "one bad roll and my character can die if I get revived." It's now more punishing to revive people in combat to continue fighting than it's been in the past, meaning once a PC is downed, they are either basically downed for the entire combat (because Wounded is far more deadly now), or you revive them at the risk of an auto-kill subsequently afterward (resulting in even more wasted actions by comparison to just downing the enemy and reviving the PC right after).
They won't be getting nerfed that much, if at all; Giant Barbarian is still going to hit like a truck (they just won't lock down as much, which is probably not the biggest issue in this comparison), and Fighters are going to be forced to rely on Improved Knockdown anyway (in which case they can just pick up a reach weapon from the Spear group to inflict Clumsy 1 with a critical on top of it all, meaning they're back to their "uber" status). Rogues can still trigger Opportune Backstab pretty easily with this group, and can provide free AoOs with one other feat later down the line. Really, Bards who go Warrior Muse can both buff and attack at the same time to greater effect thanks to their adjusted proficiencies, and Clerics are still the ultimate healbots, now with less charisma dependency.
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Fort save is most likely a mistake, will surely be errata'd.
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I disagree on the whole "no longer one optimized path" bit; Nimble Strike requires 2 feats (3 if you want to include Nimble Roll), whereas Opportune Backstab is only 1, and triggers much more reliably.
Larger enemies can just outreach your reactionary attacks, and Reflex-based effects likely won't be done while you are adjacent to them, meaning the odds of Nimble Strike triggering are very slim, if at all.
Now, if you have reach yourself, this might not be as big of an issue, but Rogues walking around with Reach weapons all the time isn't exactly commonplace (even with the Remaster factored in).
It takes two feats, but one of them is essentially the default level one feat for rogues. That's not an incredibly steep cost if most rogues were already paying it.
Opportune Backstab doesn't work if the enemy is outside of your melee reach, rither. Both feats have that problem. Nimble Strike is better if you are skirmishing, and opportune backstab is better if you're staying in flank with an ally who is more likely to draw aggro than you.
I suppose, given that Level 1 Rogue feats are a pretty bad range selection, and they otherwise don't have a Reaction to utilize. (Only class I know of that is worse are Champions, but then again, they have half of the available Level 1 feats that Rogues otherwise get.) That being said, if the difference is one feat, then Opportune Backstab is both more reliable to trigger, and is available earlier, so it's still no contest.
The problem with saying that it works for skirmishing is that you have to still be in melee range when you are affected by a Strike or Reflex save effect, and if you are skirmishing, you are never in range of the enemy at any point outside of your turn, meaning it will never reasonably trigger, and the odds of being adjacent to an enemy imposing a Reflex save is infinitesimally small. Even during your turn, enemies with AoOs are likely to punish you before you can even...
I don't understand why you keep rambling about reach as if it is a point in favor of Opportune Backstab. It isn't. Both require you to be threatening.
The reliability of either is also entirely dependent on your party. If you don't have a melee partner, you won't get Opportune Backstab. And if you don't get attacked, you won't get Nimble Strike.
Nimble Strike is actually 3 feats, since it requires Nimble Roll, and that 8th level feat is a pretty steep cost. But it also packs a lot more into your one reaction than Opportune Backstab does-- you still get a strike, but you also get +2 to AV or reflex, and potentially can stride up to 10 feet-- which makes your reach concerns even less relevant, because the Nimble triple threat is better at dealing with it than Opportune is.
Opportune IS cheaper, though, and most melee rogues should have a flanking buddy that will trigger it. But you also get a lot less out of it. Both feel like perfectly justifiable builds.
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Both feel like perfectly justifiable builds
Which is the point.
Being able to 90% get off a reaction zero MAP attack put daylight between other Rogue builds and Opportune Backstab. Now you can argue the difference.Nimble Roll was always a useful feat for a Rogue early on, though I did retrain it after a while. Being level 1 it is easy enough to get a second if you really want.
Regarding AoO - honestly it is not that big a factor. It is easy for a Rogue to avoid if it worries you. Mobility, Skirmish Strike or just get a reach weapon yourself eg Dancers Spear, Chain Sword or Scorpion Whip.
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Opportune Backstab relies on an ally successfully striking your foe, so it works best if you have multiple other melee strikers in your party (I ran AoO on a halfling thief with a polearm fighter and a melee barbarian, so Opportune Backstab probably triggered in 90% or more of my rounds in melee combat, but a less melee heavy group composition probably would have reduced this considerably while a melee flurry ranger probably would have improved my performance).
As described, Nimble Strike relies on you being attacked, which is both a plus and a minus:
- Plus: Foes are discouraged from attacking you in melee, helping your survivability.
- Minus: If you aren't attacked (perhaps because you are invisible, or perhaps they made note of you having this reaction), your damage output should drop significantly.
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I don't understand why you keep rambling about reach as if it is a point in favor of Opportune Backstab. It isn't. Both require you to be threatening.
The reliability of either is also entirely dependent on your party. If you don't have a melee partner, you won't get Opportune Backstab. And if you don't get attacked, you won't get Nimble Strike.
Nimble Strike is actually 3 feats, since it requires Nimble Roll, and that 8th level feat is a pretty steep cost. But it also packs a lot more into your one reaction than Opportune Backstab does-- you still get a strike, but you also get +2 to AV or reflex, and potentially can stride up to 10 feet-- which makes your reach concerns even less relevant, because the Nimble triple threat is better at dealing with it than Opportune is.
Opportune IS cheaper, though, and most melee rogues should have a flanking buddy that will trigger it. But you also get a lot less out of it. Both feel like perfectly justifiable builds.
But it's easier for you to coordinate with your group members to set it up than relying on a dumb/non-Large creature to purposefully trigger it (which, as has been pointed out, might not be the case if the enemy has no reason to focus you). Dictating/coordinating fellow player actions is going to be far easier than predicting the actions of a creature (at least, if it isn't just some dumb animal). As for you not having a melee partner, in the standard party of 4, you will have 1, maybe 2 others to rely on, meaning it shouldn't be terribly difficult to do so.
I believe the Stride only works on a Critical Failure, which is basically if the enemy is rolling a 1, and odds are, you are burning your Nimble Dodge/Roll on the enemy's primary attack (to avoid a [critical] hit), meaning unless you save it for an attack that has a hefty penalty (not likely if you are using skirmish tactics), the odds of that being relevant is pretty slim as well.
I mean, I would definitely say it will have more value when used with, say, a Ruffian Rogue with a Reach weapon. But I otherwise think it will have far less value by comparison, not unlike comparing the Paladin reaction to one wielding a Reach weapon compared to one that isn't.
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Many characters are just fine if a monster goes out of its way to avoid attacking them.
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Rogue just keeps getting better. Someone at Paizo loves the rogue.
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I don't understand why you keep rambling about reach as if it is a point in favor of Opportune Backstab. It isn't. Both require you to be threatening.
The reliability of either is also entirely dependent on your party. If you don't have a melee partner, you won't get Opportune Backstab. And if you don't get attacked, you won't get Nimble Strike.
Nimble Strike is actually 3 feats, since it requires Nimble Roll, and that 8th level feat is a pretty steep cost. But it also packs a lot more into your one reaction than Opportune Backstab does-- you still get a strike, but you also get +2 to AV or reflex, and potentially can stride up to 10 feet-- which makes your reach concerns even less relevant, because the Nimble triple threat is better at dealing with it than Opportune is.
Opportune IS cheaper, though, and most melee rogues should have a flanking buddy that will trigger it. But you also get a lot less out of it. Both feel like perfectly justifiable builds.
But it's easier for you to coordinate with your group members to set it up than relying on a dumb/non-Large creature to purposefully trigger it (which, as has been pointed out, might not be the case if the enemy has no reason to focus you). Dictating/coordinating fellow player actions is going to be far easier than predicting the actions of a creature (at least, if it isn't just some dumb animal). As for you not having a melee partner, in the standard party of 4, you will have 1, maybe 2 others to rely on, meaning it shouldn't be terribly difficult to do so.
I believe the Stride only works on a Critical Failure, which is basically if the enemy is rolling a 1, and odds are, you are burning your Nimble Dodge/Roll on the enemy's primary attack (to avoid a [critical] hit), meaning unless you save it for an attack that has a hefty penalty (not likely if you are using skirmish tactics), the odds of that being relevant is pretty slim as well.
I mean, I would definitely say it will have more value when used with, say,...
A) Nimble Roll triggers on a regular failure.
B) OPPORTUNE. BACKSTAB. NEEDS. REACH. TOO.Stop talking about reach! This is WILD, especially when Nimble Roll lets you possibly move and doesn't require an ally to be in position too.
A) Nimble Roll triggers on a regular failure.
B) OPPORTUNE. BACKSTAB. NEEDS. REACH. TOO.
Stop talking about reach! This is WILD, especially when Nimble Roll lets you possibly move and doesn't require an ally to be in position too.
Okay, my bad on that one.
Not particularly. When I am adjacent to an enemy at the end of my turn because my ally is going next, and my ally who is attacking said enemy lands a hit, I don't need to be wielding a Reach weapon to attack them. And we're not defaulting to a Tiny-sized character, meaning I still have a minimum reach of 5 feet. I don't see why you believe this to be the case.
Conversely, if I don't have a Reach weapon with Nimble Roll/Dodge, and I am successfully Struck (or Fail my Save), I can't Stride into a position to follow up, whereas having a Reach weapon reduces the likelihood of this being the case.
Many characters are just fine if a monster goes out of its way to avoid attacking them.
Which is all fine and dandy.
But Nimble Strike requires being attacked in order for it to trigger, which kind of defeats the whole point of taking the feat.
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A) Nimble Roll triggers on a regular failure.
B) OPPORTUNE. BACKSTAB. NEEDS. REACH. TOO.
Stop talking about reach! This is WILD, especially when Nimble Roll lets you possibly move and doesn't require an ally to be in position too.Okay, my bad on that one.
Not particularly. When I am adjacent to an enemy at the end of my turn because my ally is going next, and my ally who is attacking said enemy lands a hit, I don't need to be wielding a Reach weapon to attack them. And we're not defaulting to a Tiny-sized character, meaning I still have a minimum reach of 5 feet. I don't see why you believe this to be the case.
Conversely, if I don't have a Reach weapon with Nimble Roll/Dodge, and I am successfully Struck (or Fail my Save), I can't Stride into a position to follow up, whereas having a Reach weapon reduces the likelihood of this being the case.
If you end your turn next to an enemy, regardless of what your ally is doing next, you can use Nimble Strike. Do you understand that concept? You need to be in melee reach for either reaction. It is not an advantage of Opportune.
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Now, if you have reach yourself, this might not be as big of an issue, but Rogues walking around with Reach weapons all the time isn't exactly commonplace (even with the Remaster factored in).
Which is weird. I've been running a Ruffian Rogue with a Longspear for quite a while, and she is brutally effective. Always seemed like an obvious strong build.
If you end your turn next to an enemy, regardless of what your ally is doing next, you can use Nimble Strike. Do you understand that concept? You need to be in melee reach for either reaction. It is not an advantage of Opportune.A) Nimble Roll triggers on a regular failure.
B) OPPORTUNE. BACKSTAB. NEEDS. REACH. TOO.
Stop talking about reach! This is WILD, especially when Nimble Roll lets you possibly move and doesn't require an ally to be in position too.Okay, my bad on that one.
Not particularly. When I am adjacent to an enemy at the end of my turn because my ally is going next, and my ally who is attacking said enemy lands a hit, I don't need to be wielding a Reach weapon to attack them. And we're not defaulting to a Tiny-sized character, meaning I still have a minimum reach of 5 feet. I don't see why you believe this to be the case.
Conversely, if I don't have a Reach weapon with Nimble Roll/Dodge, and I am successfully Struck (or Fail my Save), I can't Stride into a position to follow up, whereas having a Reach weapon reduces the likelihood of this being the case.
And that's where you're wrong. Nimble Strike requires that you are being targeted with a Strike or Reflex-based effect, AKA relying on the enemy to attack you, and that they miss (or you succeed), and that they aren't so far away that you can't close the distance. A fair amount of if's, none of them being anything I'd like to have to deal with. If they're tossing a Fireball your way, odds are, they are further than the 10 foot movement you get from the feat. And if they're using a Strike from Reach, odds are it's going to hit you (unless they're using a MAP strike, in which case you might have a chance), which then denies your movement to follow up with an attack. Hence my statement of using a reach weapon so that your ability to attack isn't predicated upon moving closer to an enemy.
And yes, I understand the concept, reach doesn't change between feat usage. Point is that it's much easier to work with your allies' positioning and actions than with your enemies', who are obviously not going to have any mutual interest in setting up reactions for you.
Now, if you have reach yourself, this might not be as big of an issue, but Rogues walking around with Reach weapons all the time isn't exactly commonplace (even with the Remaster factored in).Which is weird. I've been running a Ruffian Rogue with a Longspear for quite a while, and she is brutally effective. Always seemed like an obvious strong build.
I wouldn't say "strong" build, but certainly makes a non-Thief Rogue viable. At least with the Remaster allowing them to take other martial weapons, they'll be a bit stronger in that respect.
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Personally I'm just happy that now I have a reason to use a flail with my ruffian. Gonna look sick
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Rogue just keeps getting better. Someone at Paizo loves the rogue.To be fair, they have many years of neglect to make up for...
True. It's like the rogue and fighter have traded places with the wizard.
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Poor Monk.True. It's like the rogue and fighter have traded places with the wizard.Rogue just keeps getting better. Someone at Paizo loves the rogue.To be fair, they have many years of neglect to make up for...
Aww cmon now. I've never seen monk be in such a good place mechanic wise in any other system. You're spoiled for choice as a monk player
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Aww cmon now. I've never seen monk be in such a good place mechanic wise in any other system. You're spoiled for choice as a monk playerPoor Monk.True. It's like the rogue and fighter have traded places with the wizard.Rogue just keeps getting better. Someone at Paizo loves the rogue.To be fair, they have many years of neglect to make up for...
I agree completely.
It's just that I have never seen Monk being mentioned as the uberclass, like Fighter does (and now Rogue too it seems).
Whereas these three were always mentioned as the bottom classes in PF1. So, Monk was left a bit behind by the other two former underachievers.
Aww cmon now. I've never seen monk be in such a good place mechanic wise in any other system. You're spoiled for choice as a monk playerPoor Monk.True. It's like the rogue and fighter have traded places with the wizard.Rogue just keeps getting better. Someone at Paizo loves the rogue.To be fair, they have many years of neglect to make up for...I agree completely.
It's just that I have never seen Monk being mentioned as the uberclass, like Fighter does (and now Rogue too it seems).
Whereas these three were always mentioned as the bottom classes in PF1. So, Monk was left a bit behind by the other two former underachievers.
Ahh ok,I see. Yea monk isn't nearly as killy as fighter or rogue. Too much power budget taken up by cool abilities and dbz powers ;)
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Conversely, though, it is still more fun to play for certain players than any of those. ^-^ I don't tend to see a lot of dissatisfaction with people's play experiences despite the weaker offense.
Monk should get quite better from the focus spell changes alone. Ki spells are the best pool of focus spells a martial gets innate access to. Ki Strike will go from one to 2 or three per combat and it is a significant damage boost (or get to heal and still do the same amount of Ki Strikes they could do before).
They were in a good spot before, they will most likely be in an even better spot now. Yes, most likely not as good as Fighter or Rogue, but not all classes have to be at the very top.
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Monk should get quite better from the focus spell changes alone. Ki spells are the best pool of focus spells a martial gets innate access to. Ki Strike will go from one to 2 or three per combat and it is a significant damage boost (or get to heal and still do the same amount of Ki Strikes they could do before).
They were in a good spot before, they will most likely be in an even better spot now. Yes, most likely not as good as Fighter or Rogue, but not all classes have to be at the very top.
I heavily dislike that Monk has to go Ki spells to be good.
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I heavily dispute any assertion that the Monk, as it stands now (or even before the Remaster versions of other Classes dropped) is anywhere NEAR okay even if Ki Spells are HEAVILY buffed but I'll leave that discussion alone for now because it's a pointless one to make since we basically already have confirmation the Class is up for a SERIOUS rework.
The Monk is in PC2 and we also know that it is being reimagined as a Class that will have set class paths instead of them being a general grab-bag pick-a-Feat Class (like the Fighter is) due to the announcement explanation of the PC2 specifically stating that all of the Classes in it will each "contain multiple character paths" and because of that it follows that a TON of the Monk is going to necessarily be in for a huge shakeup as the entire Feat list will, at a minimum, have to be carved up into the distinct niches/flavors of Monk they create Paths for which will then in all likelihood be mutually exclusive or in the least require you have said path chosen at 1st level or by way of opting into taking/learning that path later on ala how Order Explorer works for Druid.
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Two things can be true:
1) The PF2 is the best monk we've ever seen in a game in this family without specific builds that require system mastery to put together.
2) The PF2 monk needs a little help. That other classes with bonus damage can poach the monk's best trick (FoB) to outdamage the monk rankles.
I don't have the calculations anymore, but I vaguely recall a damage focused monk with wolf stance, 3x ki strike with the refocus chsnges, sneak attack and heaven's thunder or psi strikes being comparible to dragon barb at levels 9-10+.