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Not much sense worrying until we see what the Remaster does for them, if anything.
Not much sense worrying until we see what the Remaster does for them, if anything.Well I hope by putting thoughts out there and backed with some sound reasoning those at Paizo may look at and see some of the concerns people have and take it into mind. I personally would like to see the further use of Class Archetypes to mostly solve the issues I've outlined, since I understand a full class reimagining in the scope of the Kineticist is a bit too far out there to realistically expect.
It is waaaay too late to affect what's actually in the remaster, though. Way too late. Whatever's in the remaster is set in stone already and has been for some time. Whatever might come after that will be in context of how people react to those changes.
So... this sort of comment at the beginning of the year might have been helpful. This sort of comment might be useful again later, if you can wait for remastered Alchemist to come out and then adjust position based on the results of that. For right now, though, we're in that dead zone after the gun has been fired, but before the bullet slams home. It's not the right time to do anything about any of these topics.
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Are you asking for homebrew to use, or just for Paizo to edit the class? There's good homebrew floating around, start w/ the subforum here.
Afaik, Alchemist is actively being worked on and will release with the Remaster (?)
Honestly, all the behind the scenes previews or non-public teaser stuff is starting to bother me more and more. I really do not like hearing potential changes or coming improvements in the form of unverifiable rumor.
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The core design problems w/ Alchemist are:
* Quick Bomber being a *huge* part of the Alch's power, but does nothing for Quick Alchemy and all its Feats. Only works for bombs, not any other items, and it's not even a proper Quick Draw.
* Quick Alchemy grants instant spontaneous access for literally every Alchemy item in the book. And no "Reagent Levels." This is like a Wiz with X casts p day that can cast any spell in their book. **This** is why the majority of Alch items are not worth using in combat.
* Too many Feats are tied to tiny, niche enhancements of Quick Alchemy, which always adds that extra action tax on its use. Even worse, the Additive trait means that many/most of these tiny buffs are, once again, explicitly incompatible w/ each other.
There's supposedly some compelling excuses for why the Alchemist is basically a broken class (Double Brew and Alchemical Alacrity are still there, grrr), chiefly that it was completely redesigned at the last possible moment and released.
TBH, learning that was a big opinion minus in my book. If it was not ready, it was not ready to be released. Once that's out there, you can't really change much via errata patches. They knew both of those things, and did it anyway.
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It's clear the designers are terrified of the Alchemist in pf2e, and I honestly don't want you to get your hopes up. My suggestion to having fun w/ Alchemist is to take as many Dedications and Feats from other areas to specialize somewhere else. Maybe even take Alchemical Crafting and forget the class. Investigator w/ said Alch Crafting would work well.
Also, get a Familiar, and use Manual Dexterity + Independent. Even RaW, this allows you spend minion actions to 1-action Draw, then 1-action Hand Off to the Alch. Meaning every 2 turns, you can do a 1-action Activate of an item. That single ~loophole action saver has enabled my L8 Alch to start feeding allies things like Numbing Tonics, and even Firefoot Popcorn to the party heavy. I feel like a real Alchemist, at least more than I did before. The "I feel like an NPC" effect is real.
Still waiting to get real use from my healing elixirs. Kinda hard when Bttl Md needs to be on cooldown to consider using one.
But yeah, a Chiurgeon who cannot even justify using their signature healing elixirs is another clear sign that the Alchemist is not a functional class from a design standpoint.
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Honestly, they need to f$$@ing kill Quick Alchemy. No matter how many would complain, it is just not possible to have that many balanced options always be available at every moment. The feature should never have existed, and needs removal.
IMO, something like slowly filling "Wells" where you start w/ 1 subclass trait-locked 10-min regenerating item.
Tox would be able to "pluck" and convert/finish the incomplete blank into anything w/ the poison trait, Bombers get to convert it into a bomb of choice, ect.
Any exact specified item could be made into a Well during daily prep w/ a +Reagent cost, letting someone potentially have a 10 min cool down Smokestick or whatever. That's also how Bombers would function. Budgeted 3 Wells, that's 3 free 10-min bombs to throw, any more is depleting your prepared stock.
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There has to be some limitation on the spontaneity for there to be any hope of balanced, useful items. At least, until some L15+ Feat or Feature could enable to old style "literally anything in your book" shenanigans again.
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I think there is an effectively zero chance of the library of Alchemical Items getting buffed.
As such, the only real hope is for the Alchemist to get tools to make better use of those items, and yes, that does mean things that interact/improve the action economy. If that doesn't happen, no change to the Alchemist itself can fix things. At best, the class will continue to be Bomber, not Alchemist.
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Serious question.
Is it too late, at least for the Alchemist?
They're in Core 2.
Are we quite sure that it's pencils-down on Core 2 at this point?
I'm not absolutely sure it's pencils down, but there's a lot of stages between "rules freeze" and "no more changes of any kind ever" They have to do things like formatting, editing passes, test print, looking over the test print for any last-minute errors, and so forth. On this one in particular, it's near-guaranteed that they'll have their legal department read through the thing as well.
I would be severely surprised if we were still at the stage where "what changes should we make to the alchemist" was anything other than utterly set in stone.
On the bright side... well, the remaster is based on a lot of feedback they've been getting from various sources, and especially where feedback is concerned, quantity has a quality of its own. It's not like people haven't been saying stuff about alchemists for the past couple of years. My expectation...? The thing that comes out the other end may not have the specific changes that any one person may feel that it needs, but it'll be a pretty solid class regardless. Based on what we've seen from the remaster previews, I'd expect that the weaker options in particular will see some real improvements, the options that were potentially strong but required more twisty ways to get there will find themselves less twisted, and some of the newbie pitfalls will be filled in.
I think this is the exact moment when appealing to the devs to fix your class (which appears in Player Core 2) is probably the most effective, since eight months (Player Core 2 releases in July 2024) seems to be too long to already have set everything in stone. The devs where saying at the announcement of the Remaster, which was pretty exactly six months ago, that they were still taking feedback for Player Core 1, IIRC.
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I personally found the alchemist miserable to play. I tried leaning into the versatility and "having a tool" for every situation and it just fell flat. GM let me respec to arcane sorcerer and that's going much better.
I think you can play/make something workable and I know how I would approach it now if I was forced to play one again, but I wouldn't choose to play one. Alchemy is neat enough that I would throw some dedication feats to it.
My issues were poor accuracy, difficult resource limited lower levels and little to look forward to at higher levels. I wasn't particularly good with using my alchemical items. The malus on most of my buffs meant my allies did not like being buffed by me even though they went along with it and the action economy to do things in combat is brutal. I did better with a full formula book and spamming quick alchemy, but I had nothing for the boss that adventure and my contributions were only mediocre instead of terrible when I was "doing good".
Resources scaling with level and all being max power appears to be a difficult balance point. Quick alchemy seems to also be a difficult balance point. I don't have a great solution for the alchemist, but I don't like it.
Serious question.
Is it too late, at least for the Alchemist?
They're in Core 2.
Are we quite sure that it's pencils-down on Core 2 at this point?
It is still 8 months off, They wont be finished yet.
I'm not sure what the full rework will look like but the current alchemist definitely seems challenging to me. I wouldn't be mad if crafting 'actual' alchemic items from the book that can be handed off to others becomes more of a side thing to buy back some power budget, but they may just retool the items themselves. It may be the most drastically changed of the the four reworks, or maybe it'll be champion. Admittedly, all the changes I would want would turn them into more standard variations of a martial and the class identity would suffer, so I don't feel like they're going to happen. In the spirit of the remaster I won't expect drastic changes more so than QOL/smoothing of playstyle tweaks (though alchemist has gotten a couple of those) to reign in my expectations.
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As Alchemical Items have been released in a lot of books, Paizo can't really rethink the Alchemist from the ground up. Well, unless they somehow remove Alchemical Items from the thing the class does, which will be far too much of a change.
I think the best thing they can do is to create more powerful and compelling feats. With proper feats (reduction of Mutagens drawbacks, increase of Poison DCs, better action economy for Elixirs) the Alchemist should be much easier to play. I just hope my 3 Alchemists will stay valid, but I'm not sure it'll be the case.
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Alchs being limited completely by their Reagents, even for bomb Strikes, is a big problem.
It means that even a Chirugeon may think they need to throw bombs, which means no ammo for any tools or elixirs.
I'm an advocate for Alchemists to get full Martial weapons, but I'm kinda OK with Alchs being a class stuck at -1 accuracy (but not any more than that), it's an interesting wrinkle to the class that does push a non-Strike playstyle.
That said, as anyone dipping into Alch as a sub will not have the accuracy penalty, it makes it HELL to balance, and I'd be fine if that wrinkle was gone.
I know my lil Shortbow has basically never left my Alch's hand, though the new Alchemist Crossbow is actually a good option for anyone sticking w/ Simple ((IMO) the Reload rules let you regrip for free inside of any reload, so a 2-H Xbow is annoying, but viable).
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Even with the room of a "remaster," I think there's only so much that can change. I don't think they are/were willing to remake the class from scratch, and the existing Alch items are def not changing. Maybe Mutagens can get buffed/altered, but I can't even see them taking the time to re-write every bomb.
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*IF* Quick Alch is staying, I at least want them to actually be creative with it. It should not be about getting any item on the spot, but fundamentally altering said item, ya know, like someone who can reshape the fundamental quintessence of the universe might want to.
None of that pansy "add one L2 elixir to another" nonsense. Combine Elixirs is literally a horrid "action saver" that adds no new unique ability whatsoever, only being useful when you need BOTH effects. Why TF is that even Quick Alch only? I might actually consider the Feat if I could enhance my Healing Elixirs with a Cat's Eye effect during daily prep, but nooooo. That's actually useful, can't let the Alchemist do that.
An example of a "real" Alchemist Feat:
Type Twist
[free-action] Feat 4
Trigger: Quick Alchemy [...]With a further spark of mastery, you are able to twist the quintessence of your creations and alter its type. Substitute all references to one damage type into that of any energy type, poison, void, or vitality.
For example, a cold-typed Skunk Bomb might trigger a relevant weakness, while still allowing the Sickened condition to bypass a Poison Immunity.
For creations with multiple type being referenced, such as an Energy Mutagen, only one may be altered.
That's the kind of ability that can actually make a +1 action to brew (and 2x the Reagent cost) worth the combat choice and Feat slot.
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I've wrote a whole thing for bomb-fueled Alchemical Contraptions, terrain-thrown combat deployables.
The idea being that throwing bombs becomes an Alchs combat fallback/supplement, and the main fun stuff is throwing one or two of these spell-like things. Another point being that you can't buy and use these from a shop, which is a big balance problem w/ the class.
I tried to invent one Contraption for each bomb and general mechanic type. A gas sack that inflates and explodes, a serpent lightning rod that jumps to smack lightning-hit targets, a "Spectral Hand-off" for the ghost charge utility one, an acid sprinkler that instantly triggers persistent damage, ect.
My goal was to make something that matched how a character that spends their training in an Alchemy Lab would actually fight. A bit of "batman prep" paired with "mad synergizer," ect.
Still ver 1.1.
IMO Paizo struck gold w/ the idea of bomb/item-fueled Alch gear, and If Paizo is interested in making something new to add on top, having some of those tools be integrated into the class itself is the way to graduate from Bomber and into Alchemist.
Master weapon proficiency and free-action alchemical-item drawing may be enough for me to want to play the class again.
If I could:
Move up
Heal ally
Attack once
As a turn, then that makes what the alchemist is doing more appealing. Because the current turn of
Move up
Draw elixir
Heal ally a little bit
Is just not a great turn.
I just want some more martial viability for the mutagenist and toxicologist. The former should have some innate bonus outside the effects of the mutagen to incentivize the alchemist to be the one using the mutagens to begin with. Metabolic might or something to actually give the class some damage riders or something to make their martial strikes outside bomb use not a joke, I'd even give up bombs all together as I'm focused on another field entirely.
I agree, but I'm quite worried about the execution of that. Right now, there's Alch Feats that do nothing but add a single niche bonus to a single mutagen, only when drunk by you.
You want to spend a L18 Class Feat so that when you drink a Serene mutagen, it blocks scrying magic?
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For all the non-Alchemists out there, I swear I'm not making this up, the class really is so bad, it thinks that is a valid use of an endgame class feat.
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Mindblank Mutagen
Feat 18
Alchemist
Source Core Rulebook pg. 81 4.0
With a minor adjustment of ratios in the formula for your serene mutagen, you gain mental protections. When you’re affected by a serene mutagen, detection, revelation, and scrying effects of 9th level or lower detect nothing from you or your possessions and auras. For instance, detect magic would still detect other magic in the area, but not any magic on you.
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Even if such Feats were "upgraded" to be useful, I don't like the idea of spending Feats for single item upgrades like that at all.
Mutagenicist is certainly the tricky one to improve. I think the items themselves need to be re-written first. As far as Feats go, that's a tough one. Alchemist as a concept/fantasy does not easily mesh with Mutagenicist IMO.
The best I can think of atm is something like:
Consumptive Integration:
When you create an Infused Mutagen, you can choose to spend an extra Infused Reagent to mutagenically infuse the elixir with the bio-mimicry of any non-mutagen Alchemical item you can create via Advanced Alchemy.
When consumed, the altered subject also grows a large lump correlating to the item, and can Activate or Strike with the item as if it was being held. If the mutagen is still active, the abnormal glad will replenish itself within 10 minutes.
Yeah... giving toxicologists and mutagenicists some support for actually using their implied fighting style would be nice.
One thing that I notice, though, that was almost cool....
I feel like the bomber alchemist was in some ways one of the last bastions of old 3.x gameplay. In particular, the bit where you start with a small number of core abilities or two, and then you keep spending feats to stack features and small improvements on those core abilities felt very 3.x... and in chargen (which is as far as I've ever gotten with an alchemist) it felt very satisfying. PF2 doesn't generally want to let you do that sort of thing, much. For the most part, you get maybe 3 feats over the course of 20 levels on any one thing, and then you're done.
Still, it did feel satisfying, and while I expect that they'll simplify that whole thing down a fair bit, I expect that I'll miss it when it's gone. At the same time, I feel like it might have been poorly placed. The kind of person who's most likely to want and enjoy that experience is generally not going to be well-suited for the "all of alchemy is my spellbook (except when it's my spell repertoire)" playstyle that you need in order to really make the (current) alchemist shine.
As a side note... I could imagine a feat that would be worth having that would boost a single mutagen, but it would have to be a mutagen that was intended to be the core of a fighting style, and an effect that would be of obvious value to said fighting style.
I personally found the alchemist miserable to play. I tried leaning into the versatility and "having a tool" for every situation and it just fell flat. GM let me respec to arcane sorcerer and that's going much better.
I think you can play/make something workable and I know how I would approach it now if I was forced to play one again, but I wouldn't choose to play one. Alchemy is neat enough that I would throw some dedication feats to it.
My issues were poor accuracy, difficult resource limited lower levels and little to look forward to at higher levels. I wasn't particularly good with using my alchemical items. The malus on most of my buffs meant my allies did not like being buffed by me even though they went along with it and the action economy to do things in combat is brutal. I did better with a full formula book and spamming quick alchemy, but I had nothing for the boss that adventure and my contributions were only mediocre instead of terrible when I was "doing good".
Resources scaling with level and all being max power appears to be a difficult balance point. Quick alchemy seems to also be a difficult balance point. I don't have a great solution for the alchemist, but I don't like it.
I'm boosting bomb proficiency and possibly weapons to Master for the Alchemist. Alchemical items are not so good that having a weak weapon proficiency is warranted.
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In general I dislike people shutting down discussions with baseless assertions that their feedback does not matter. I'd rather have a thread of people trying to interpret the game and its balance and that maybe not bearing fruit than have a thread spend its first posts arguing about whether to even have the thread in the first place. I know the Roll20 forums used to explicitly disallow this, though they had an upvote system to more organically decide which threads deserved attention without any need for naysaying to weed actually bad ideas out.
It's hard to know what scope of changes are even on the table for the alchemist. It's always been in a rough spot as the first class that did magic without spell slots in this system, and despite its reworks it's still often seen as not quite there. Some of the feats, at hte least, certainly need to be reworked; as mentioned earlier, spending level 18 feat for something that situational that also has a ton of conditions on top of it is just wey out of line with what other classes are able to do with their own level 18 slots. A level 8 feat from another class would probably beat that out, almost regardless of build, that's not a good place for such a top shelf class feat to be.
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I think one of the big problems with the current Alchemist is the "Well, Quick Alchemy can make anything the Alchemist knows, and that's very powerful, so we have to weaken them to maintain balance!"
And uh.... okay, it's not very powerful. Or at least, not as powerful as Paizo contends. That is far and away an overstatement. Yes, if they have any reagents available AND they know the applicable formula (which isn't a given) they can solve a lot of niche or edge case problems.
And Paizo realized that, what with all of the "Okay, sure, Alchemists can use Medium armor. And uh, we're making this ability baseline, because holy crap, otherwise, everyone's just going to take that feat anyway because it's just that good, and.... and.... and...."
I mean, it is the most patched class.
So, yeah, I hope Paizo considers that the Alchemist (especially the Mutagenist which is my favorite) really needs a complete rewrite and a way for each of the subclasses to shine.
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I mean, the question is: is this thread adding any value or new information, or just the 30th retread of old ground?
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I think one of the big problems with the current Alchemist is the "Well, Quick Alchemy can make anything the Alchemist knows, and that's very powerful, so we have to weaken them to maintain balance!"
And uh.... okay, it's not very powerful. Or at least, not as powerful as Paizo contends. That is far and away an overstatement. Yes, if they have any reagents available AND they know the applicable formula (which isn't a given) they can solve a lot of niche or edge case problems.
And Paizo realized that, what with all of the "Okay, sure, Alchemists can use Medium armor. And uh, we're making this ability baseline, because holy crap, otherwise, everyone's just going to take that feat anyway because it's just that good, and.... and.... and...."
I mean, it is the most patched class.
So, yeah, I hope Paizo considers that the Alchemist (especially the Mutagenist which is my favorite) really needs a complete rewrite and a way for each of the subclasses to shine.
Quick Alchemy is a chicken-egg problem.
Alchemical items are not allowed to be combat good, even for a niche scenario, because Quick Alchemy is there. Quick Alchemy is never allowed to be good (bad Additive Feats) because some forgotten item might be really good, and become nuts/ meta defining if boosted with some Additive.
It's like someone forgot about the whole reason repertoire and prepared casters are mutually exclusive, but with meta magic on top.
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Paizo seems so out of sync with Alchemist play, that when they released the Treasure Vault, PFS instantly restricted Clown Monarch and Mustard Powder.
Even more of a shame/frustration may be the Alchemical ammunition, as an attempt was made to have the Alch not be so bomb dependent.
Yet, the 1-action cost to just activate the bloody ammo makes them nearly worthless. The boosts/effects are not enough to justify shooting, let alone spending your daily budget on them. And they STILL have static DCs that just fall behind as soon as you level past their unlock.
The only one that's at all usable is the ooze, as it enables the complete substitution of piercing dmg --> acid, with a little boost on top. The resistance is rare, but common enough to sometimes prep. It also has a chance to steal an action to wipe the goo off, but that's just a GM being nice.
Even with that best-case, the Alchemist is a class built around having a variety of damage types, and I only used ooze arrows for 2-3 sessions before spending my Reagents elsewhere.
The elemental ammo offer tiny persistent damage, and seem made specifically to trigger weaknesses. What the designers failed to think about is that there is no way I'm going to prepare something on the HOPE there's an enemy w/ a matching weakness, of that exact ammo type. Each of the 4 damage types is it's own formula.
Their action economy is so bad, that trying to Quick Alch them in response to seeing a weakness means you literally Quick Alch --> Reload --> Activate - X -> can't shoot.
You have to have a Shortbow to even make it possible at all, and it's still never better than Quick-throwing a bomb w/ persistent dmg in a single action.
That's how badly Paizo is out of sync w/ the game's reality for Alchemists as recently as the Treasure Vault. They cannot even work around their own L1 Feat of Quick Bomber to help the Alchemist, and even when it's obvious they are scared of items making Rangers and Gunslingers even stronger, that is EXACTLY what they did, again.
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Treasure Vault can simultaneously release crazy good things that get instantly restricted from Paizo's own supervised play, and entire categories of items that are nearly worthless (for the Alchemist).
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I mean, the question is: is this thread adding any value or new information, or just the 30th retread of old ground?
Well, keeping it in a specific thread means that it's super easy to just not click on it.
There's no reason for such discussion to bother anyone.
Free action draw an alchemical item once per turn as a core feature of the alchemist would go a long way. That's something I want to see
Hard agree. Though I think limiting it to L Bulk instead of Alchemical items would avoid needlessly kneecapping the Alchemist.
Something like Fine Motor Flourish sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
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So, I've been meaning to chime on this for a while.
I don't think we're going to see wholesale revisions of the Class. The watchword of the Remaster so far has been "tweak", not "change utterly."
So, I don't think we're going to see substantial revisions of the Alchemical Items. I don't think that we're going to see massive revisions in how the Mutagens work. I don't believe that Bombs will suddenly all have four levels of success like the Skunk Bomb. I don't think we'll see a Buff to Elixirs of Life, although I would really like to see one (at least getting a new Tier every 2nd level instead of every 4th.)
I have a few other things I'd like to see:
1. Move Perpetual Infusions from 7th level to 3rd. While not a perfect solution, I think it would be the easiest way to address the severe Resource problems early on in the Class. Michael Sayre wrote a post in the Wizard discussion about how the adventuring day is balanced, and how you might have more than three encounters in a day if the encounters are minor and don't consume Resources. The problem there is that there is no such thing as an encounter that doesn't use Resources for an early game Alchemist.
2. Modify Signature Items so that they mean something past Level Five. Perhaps you can move to making four per Batch of those Items.
- Also, clarify the language so that you can make higher level Items Signatures. Right now, by strict RAW, you can't.
- Finally, let Chirurgeons select healing Tools as well as healing Elixirs as Signatures (and Perpetuals.)
3. Change the wording on Chirurgeon's Field Discovery so they can mix and match their Healing Items just like the other Research Fields. Nobody wants to make a 3 Item Batch of Infused Focus Cathartics.
4. Clarify that Double Brew works with Perpetual Infusion Items.
5. Get rid of Alchemical Alacrity. Making three short-lived Infused Items in a single Action is basically worthless.
As for getting Master in Strikes:
I think... maybe. Warpriest is getting a version of this through Final Doctrine (19th level.) However, with the release of Kineticist, I'm not entirely sure.
Combat focused Alchemist has the same Accuracy as the Kineticist for 11 of 20 levels (1-4, 10-14, 17-18). It has better Accuracy for 5 levels (5-9) and worse for 4 levels (15, 16, 19 & 20).
Given how close it is, I'm not entirely sure an increase to Master is in the cards. I hope so though. It would go a long way to getting the Class a little more respect.
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So, I've been meaning to chime on this for a while.
I don't think we're going to see wholesale revisions of the Class. The watchword of the Remaster so far has been "tweak", not "change utterly."
So, I don't think we're going to see substantial revisions of the Alchemical Items. I don't think that we're going to see massive revisions in how the Mutagens work. I don't believe that Bombs will suddenly all have four levels of success like the Skunk Bomb. I don't think we'll see a Buff to Elixirs of Life, although I would really like to see one (at least getting a new Tier every 2nd level instead of every 4th.)
I have a few other things I'd like to see:
1. Move Perpetual Infusions from 7th level to 3rd. While not a perfect solution, I think it would be the easiest way to address the severe Resource problems early on in the Class. Michael Sayre wrote a post in the Wizard discussion about how the adventuring day is balanced, and how you might have more than three encounters in a day if the encounters are minor and don't consume Resources. The problem there is that there is no such thing as an encounter that doesn't use Resources for an early game Alchemist.
2. Modify Signature Items so that they mean something past Level Five. Perhaps you can move to making four per Batch of those Items.
- Also, clarify the language so that you can make higher level Items Signatures. Right now, by strict RAW, you can't.
- Finally, let Chirurgeons select healing Tools as well as healing Elixirs as Signatures (and Perpetuals.)3. Change the wording on Chirurgeon's Field Discovery so they can mix and match their Healing Items just like the other Research Fields. Nobody wants to make a 3 Item Batch of Infused Focus Cathartics.
4. Clarify that Double Brew works with Perpetual Infusion Items.
5. Get rid of Alchemical Alacrity. Making three short-lived Infused Items in a single Action is basically worthless.
As for getting Master in Strikes:
I think... maybe. Warpriest is getting a...
This seems odd.
An alchemist has an innate item bonus for bombs.
The kineticist has the gate attenuator for up to a +2 item bonus for blasts.
An alchemist would have: +2 trained and +1 item bonus +3 plus Dex and level. Topping out at Expert with a +3 item bonus for a +4 proficiency +3 item which would be +7 plus Dex plus level.
Trained: +2 +1 = +3 Base
Expert: +4 +3 item= +7 base
Kineticist would be Trained +2 plus con plus level.
Trained: +2 + stat + level: +2
Expert with gate attenuator for blasts: +4 +1 item + stat + level: +5
Master with +2 gate attenuator: +6 +2 item +stat +level: +8
Legendary with gate attenuator: +8 +2 item +stat +level. +10
So a kineticist would be +1 higher with master proficiency for blasts which do about bomb damage.
+3 better for legendary.
Given bombs are more limited than unlimited blasts, seems like Master proficiency is doable.
I don't use the Bombs' Item Bonus. That never works out right, especially as I like using Sticky Bombs with Perpetual Infusions. I use Quicksilver Mutagen, and that Bonus is 1 pt ahead of anything else Item wise, (although it comes in 1 level later.)
So, 1st through 4th:
Kineticist Con +4, Trained +2, Item Bonus 0 or +1 = 6 or 7 + Level.
Alchemist on Quicksilver= Dex +3, Trained +2, Item Bonus +1 or +2 = 6 or 7 + Level.
Same thing.
5-9th, Alchemist goes to Dex +4, so moves to 8 + Level: 1 pt ahead of Kineticist. They both go to Expert at 7th, so 10 + Level to 9 + Level.
10th to 14th, Kineticist gets to Con +5, so back to even: 10 + Level at 10th. Both Item Bonuses improve at 11th, so 11 + Level,
15th & 16th Kineticist pulls ahead with Master, but only by +1 as Alchemist's Dex goes to +5. 13 to 12.
17th and 18th Alchemist gets to +4 Item Bonus with Major Quicksilver, and both get Apex Items. Even again, 14 + Level.
19th and 20th Kineticist pulls away for good, 16 + Level due to Legendary and then 17 + Level with Con +7.
Given bombs are more limited than unlimited blasts, seems like Master proficiency is doable.
You'd be surprised. 17th level Kineticist doing a single action blast is typically doing 5d8 damage for an average of 22. 28 if they go two action to add Con.
17th Level Alchemist using a Sticky Greater Alchemist's Fire is going to do 15 pts Fire + 9 pts Fire Splash + 12 pts Persistent Fire for an average damage of 37.
Kineticist has the Alchemist beat by a number of measures. But not on the unlimited front with basic options. Once you get into the more powerful 2-Action Impulses, Kineticist cleans Alchemist's clock, naturally.
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I don't use the Bombs' Item Bonus. That never works out right, especially as I like using Sticky Bombs with Perpetual Infusions. I use Quicksilver Mutagen, and that Bonus is 1 pt ahead of anything else Item wise, (although it comes in 1 level later.)
So, 1st through 4th:
Kineticist Con +4, Trained +2, Item Bonus 0 or +1 = 6 or 7 + Level.
Alchemist on Quicksilver= Dex +3, Trained +2, Item Bonus +1 or +2 = 6 or 7 + Level.Same thing.
5-9th, Alchemist goes to Dex +4, so moves to 8 + Level: 1 pt ahead of Kineticist. They both go to Expert at 7th, so 10 + Level to 9 + Level.
10th to 14th, Kineticist gets to Con +5, so back to even: 10 + Level at 10th. Both Item Bonuses improve at 11th, so 11 + Level,
15th & 16th Kineticist pulls ahead with Master, but only by +1 as Alchemist's Dex goes to +5. 13 to 12.
17th and 18th Alchemist gets to +4 Item Bonus with Major Quicksilver, and both get Apex Items. Even again, 14 + Level.
19th and 20th Kineticist pulls away for good, 16 + Level due to Legendary and then 17 + Level with Con +7.
Given bombs are more limited than unlimited blasts, seems like Master proficiency is doable.You'd be surprised. 17th level Kineticist doing a single action blast is typically doing 5d8 damage for an average of 22. 28 if they go two action to add Con.
17th Level Alchemist using a Sticky Greater Alchemist's Fire is going to do 15 pts Fire + 9 pts Fire Splash + 12 pts Persistent Fire for an average damage of 37.
Kineticist has the Alchemist beat by a number of measures. But not on the unlimited front with basic options. Once you get into the more powerful 2-Action Impulses, Kineticist cleans Alchemist's clock, naturally.
The Kineticist is doing ranged blasts mixed with auras and powers too. The Kineticist is doing a 5d8 blast mixed with unlimited impulses that often use saves or automatically work, whereas the alchemist often deals with a MAP penalty.
I don't see a problem with them getting Master proficiency.
Quicksilver mutagen costs double level hit points which is 34 at level 17 and -2 on Fortitude saves. The Kineticist negatives are....
Quicksilver is in essence a +1 bonus over what they normally get for a price. Why shouldn't they be able to hit hard with bombs or their main attack using one of their most powerful Elixirs? It's not like it gives some huge damage bonus like barb rage.
I think they could easily up alchemist proficiency to Master and it would make them more fun to play without altering their balance. They are undertuned right now. Not useless, but just a bit undertuned.
The Quicksilver Mutagen is a net +1 bonus above what they would normally get at Master level proficiency since item bonuses don't stack.
I'm not trying to argue that the two classes are on equal footing: I don't think they are. I'm just saying that they are close enough on Accuracy that Paizo may not think it's necessary. I hope I'm wrong on that point.
And, you're correct about the Drawback... if you look at it for Accuracy alone. Still, 17th level (which I picked because Alchemists get their last Bomb upgrades and Kineticist gets their last Kinetic Blast dice upgrade (another area the two are similar)) an Alchemist is getting a lot more for being a 6HP class with Expert (but Juggernaut) Fortitude Saves than just Accuracy.
There's also a +2 over Resilient Runes on Reflex Saves (and the Class gets Evasion). Plus 4 on all Dex based Skills, so +1 over anything else available (my guy will have Anklets, as they fit his style best) for free; and last but not least a +20' status bonus to Speed.
It's a tradeoff, absolutely, but I find there's a lot more benefit than Drawback. 6HP as a ranged Striker is fine. Expert Fortitude Saves are also fine (10.5 Classes finish with Expert Fortitude saves), especially when you have Juggernaut upgrading Success to Crit Success.
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I think this is the exact moment when appealing to the devs to fix your class (which appears in Player Core 2) is probably the most effective, since eight months (Player Core 2 releases in July 2024) seems to be too long to already have set everything in stone. The devs where saying at the announcement of the Remaster, which was pretty exactly six months ago, that they were still taking feedback for Player Core 1, IIRC.
Just to be clear, the devs never said they were taking feedback for the player core books, and when asked about it and about playtesting in general it was commented on the thread to take the "last four years as playtesting and feedback". It was never on the table that any feedback post announcement was going to be incorporated into the books
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Atm your research field feels pretty bland compared to other classes having their entire identity bound to a choice like that
TBH probably my favorite thing about the class. I love that I can be a mutagenist but still have poisons and bombs and elixirs at my disposal for when I need them.
I'd be really bummed if the final version of the class ended up feeling like you had to specialize to make your items useful.
I have to agree. Being able to Quick Alchemy whatever I want from my formula book(s) whether it's in my Research Field or not is really important to my enjoyment of the Class. Same with Advanced Alchemy. I don't think we need to separate the Research Fields any more than they already are.
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For me if Quick Alchemy is what is holding the class back then I wouldn't miss it at all.
I would rather Quick Alchemy be a 10 minute activity or gone entirely if it mean I can be more reliable in other areas. As a 10 minute reprepare some of what you made using advanced alchemy into something else (maybe with a 2 or 3 advanced alchemy being remixed into 1 quick alchemy object) it might balance while still giving that balance out of combat.
Alternatively less infused reagents per day but with quick alchemy being a once per hour activity to make a number of items based on int modifier.
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For me if Quick Alchemy is what is holding the class back then I wouldn't miss it at all.
I would rather Quick Alchemy be a 10 minute activity or gone entirely if it mean I can be more reliable in other areas.
Is there any particular reason why you think you need to give up Quick Alchemy at all though?
To me giving up quick alchemy so alchemists can be more accurate or whatever kind of reads like a non sequitur.
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I wouldn't be mad with specializing more in the class
For me if Quick Alchemy is what is holding the class back then I wouldn't miss it at all.
I would rather Quick Alchemy be a 10 minute activity or gone entirely if it mean I can be more reliable in other areas.
Is there any particular reason why you think you need to give up Quick Alchemy at all though?
To me giving up quick alchemy so alchemists can be more accurate or whatever kind of reads like a non sequitur.
It's basically guessing the minds of the Paizo devs, and how they think about power budget.
Even Sorcerers, who are entirely built around their spell repertoire, have a rather small pool they can spontaneously cast from, and do little else.
It is very, very common in game design and ttrpg design to consider versatility, especially spontaneous versatility, to be very powerful and dangerous/difficult to balance.
Alchemists can make any item in their book in a single action, and have it in-hand. They are a nightmare for "silver-bullet" type reactive solutions, from Silversheen to something like a Sense-Dulling Hood. Now, the Energy Mutagen has kinda taken that crown, being able to slap on serious amount of type-matched resistance in a turn is nuts.
If you then consider the ability to ignore all the bad Feats and take Dedications, it is easy to understand why Alchemist has been so neglected.
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While it is speculation that removing 1-action Quick Alchemy would result in the devs allowing more power budget elsewhere, it's a very well reasoned/common thing to assume.
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My pitch would be for the hard daily commitment to be to 10-min trickle-filling "Wells" that are of set items you think you'll need many times per day.
For Advanced Alchemy, it can be a 10, or even 1 min activity that still creates x per Reagent, but will have yet more per Reagent if done with access to an Alchemy Lab, aka doing during daily prep for a bonus.
So making an off-specialization option during a 10-min dungeon break --> 2x,
on specialization --> 3x
with Lab access maybe a flat 2 times multiplier, maybe a +1, who knows.
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Main thing with the Wells is that it should break even at about 3 pulls of the regenerating item, and more efficient to make a Well if you use it more than that.