Asmodeus was given as an example of a deity that would require unholy sanctification, so I'm making an assumption about most of the archdevils following the pattern in the same way that all but two of the archdevils required LE-only. If the archdevils take a more relaxed attitude for some reason, then yeah.
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If the alignment rule system is the only thing stopping your players from behaving like sociopathic jerks, the problem is not that alignment is going away, the problem is your players.
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What "mechanical space"?
Because unless you start using Divine Lance as a way to detect evil there's not much that could be done mechanically to detect a false Cleric.
Detect Alignment exists pre-Remaster, and I’m assuming there’s other stuff I don’t know of off the top of my head. “A lot” overstated it, but it seems easier to buy a false Cleric running a long-term con without Alignment mechanics than with.
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The OP was looking for, quote:
Emphasis mine. Though of course, some of those ideas might be fun or non-disruptive in an evil campaign, and the Rovagug thing sounds pretty similar to the Hellknights, honestly.
What kind of non-disruptive, fun ideas might we come up with if this dichotomy is permitted? What kind of stories could be told that simply weren't possible before?
Correct.
Temperans' ideas are good ones, provided they are NPCs or, if PCs, provided there is buy-in from everyone at the table.
For the sake of keeping this thread as an easy going brainstorm discussion, let's all just operate under the assumption that those presenting character ideas are not doing so with the intent that those concepts be disruptive.
Removed a harassing post. When discussing topics like this PLEASE be patient, non aggressive, and abide by the guidelines.
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Detect Alignment exists pre-Remaster, and I’m assuming there’s other stuff I don’t know of off the top of my head. “A lot” overstated it, but it seems easier to buy a false Cleric running a long-term con without Alignment mechanics than with.What "mechanical space"?
Because unless you start using Divine Lance as a way to detect evil there's not much that could be done mechanically to detect a false Cleric.
Detect Alignment is Uncommon precisely to allow for these kind of stories.
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I keep seeing the title of this thread, "Wolves in Sheeps' Clothing," and the first thing that comes to mind is, doesn't Pathfinder 2e have more clothing options? With alignments gone, wolves are more likely to have a more diverse taste in clothing. A wolf in ducks' clothing, perhaps. I happen to have a discount on ducks' clothing right now if you hurry.
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I keep seeing the title of this thread, "Wolves in Sheeps' Clothing," and the first thing that comes to mind is, doesn't Pathfinder 2e have more clothing options? With alignments gone, wolves are more likely to have a more diverse taste in clothing. A wolf in ducks' clothing, perhaps. I happen to have a discount on ducks' clothing right now if you hurry.
Awakened wolf animal barbarian with custom sheep instinct?
Ooooh, actually, this just gave me the best character future idea:
Awakened rabbit animal barbarian with deer instinct... the jackalope!
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With the disbanding of alignment and the implementation of the sanctification system, is there anything (aside from GM fiat) preventing a player from making an evil cleric under a goodly deity or faith, or vice versa? Should there be?
I know we will have Anathema, Edicts, and similar directives, but they tend to be fairly limited in scope, and so often allow a lot of wiggle room for anything outside those bounds.
What kind of non-disruptive, fun ideas might we come up with if this dichotomy is permitted? What kind of stories could be told that simply weren't possible before?
A corrupt and greedy priest who pockets more of the church's donations than he should? A grey paladin looting the dead of the Worldwound? A crazed individual whose devout faith is ever at odds with their compulsive impulses? An infiltrator who pays lip service in exchange for power? A blackgaurd who follows dark masters to stay alive, but yerns for the freedom to make their own choices? A maiden trained as a Devil Nun, or Sister of the Golden Erinyes, who has broken away from the cult towards a life of adventure?
Does the lore of the setting count, or is it discounted as "GM-fiat" ?
For the second part, I would guess whatever makes the story more fun to all involved (GM and players).
My own favorites :
1- someone who sacrifices themselves for the good of their community to become a priest of dark evil deities whom they placate and propitiate so that their people are spared the worst of said deities' wrath/whimsy.
2 - a true priest of the whole pantheon (either Core 20 or all deities) who helps the common people properly pray to any deity whose help they need for the situation at hand. (would likely need a bit of homebrew for the pantheon part though)
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I keep seeing the title of this thread, "Wolves in Sheeps' Clothing," and the first thing that comes to mind is, doesn't Pathfinder 2e have more clothing options? With alignments gone, wolves are more likely to have a more diverse taste in clothing. A wolf in ducks' clothing, perhaps. I happen to have a discount on ducks' clothing right now if you hurry.Awakened wolf animal barbarian with custom sheep instinct?
Ooooh, actually, this just gave me the best character future idea:
Awakened rabbit animal barbarian with deer instinct... the jackalope!
Half Basset Hound so they can be the Bassajackalope from Bloom County.
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Wait. Do we have confirmation that breaking a god's anathema makes the god angry and that's why you get your toys taken away? Or if it's just a code-of-conduct type thing that has nothing to do with the god themselves?
That is to say, if I break do Abadar's anathema, but Abadar can't see it (for whatever reason, yes I know he's a god and doesn't have stats, but let's pretend Asmodeus is pulling the wool over his eyes) do I still lose my powers? Are my powers based purely on the whims of my deity?
I ask because in PF 1e and 3.5 the god was basically just an interlocutor between ideas and mortals. That's how you got clerics of ideals and faith=power. The cleric class in 2e says "you devote yourself to a deity or a pantheon" (paraphrasing) eliminating that facet, but I've never been clear on whether breaking anathemas results in the god smiting you or if it's just a "you broke the code of conduct, that's bad" law of the universe.
You should note that while the mechanics of the cleric PF1 class did allow for clerics of ideals, within the Golarion setting that was not the case. Clerics of ideas were not allowed in the canon setting, IIRC.
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Does the lore of the setting count, or is it discounted as "GM-fiat" ?
For the second part, I would guess whatever makes the story more fun to all involved (GM and players).
My own favorites :
1- someone who sacrifices themselves for the good of their community to become a priest of dark evil deities whom they placate and propitiate so that their people are spared the worst of said deities' wrath/whimsy.
2 - a true priest of the whole pantheon (either Core 20 or all deities) who helps the common people properly pray to any deity whose help they need for the situation at hand. (would likely need a bit of homebrew for the pantheon part though)
#1 there is a real-life thing, at least as far as my own (limited) understanding of Shinto is concerned. You start with a local demon, you make a shrine to them, you propitiate them, and after a while they find that they like this little valley and the peasants that keep bringing them offerings and the pretty little priestess who performs their rituals and they maybe start intervening on behalf of their worshipers every once in a while when they feel like it.
Another one is... personal gratitude and loyalty. Golarion is filled with people in dire situations that can best be solved by applications of violence. Pick someone who's honorable enough in the right ways, have them saved from an appropriately horrible fate by a devout and proselytizing follower of (Deity), have said follower indicate that they did it all on behalf of their deity and gratitude should go appropriately, and you have a pretty universal explanation for why someone might follow almost any deity, regardless of how well it suited them personally.
You can also do the family loyalty version - someone who's very loyal to their personal family or clan, where the deity that that family/clan follows has done well by them over the generations. They find themselves unlike their family in many ways, and perhaps not so suited to the god of their forebears as most of their relatives, but that's not the god's fault, and they continue to worship out of a sense of loyalty, even if there's perhaps a bit of dissonance there.
I can also imagine (with a bit of setting tweaking) that certain deities provide magical power that can be addictive in it's usage. IIRC the stories from the Wheel of Time universe correctly, the Dark One (the mega BBEG) allowed the use of the "True Power" which had an addictive quality to it. So if someone were allowed to access such an addictive power to save their live or the live of someone or something they cared about, even knowing about the nature of the power they still might choose to use it. Now you have a servant to an evil power that could be unwilling, but is addicted and in order to continue to receive that power has to appease the deity.
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Asmodeus was given as an example of a deity that would require unholy sanctification, so I'm making an assumption about most of the archdevils following the pattern in the same way that all but two of the archdevils required LE-only. If the archdevils take a more relaxed attitude for some reason, then yeah.
The only archdevil that allows LN right now is Dispater, who is mostly about that veneer of perfection and stability that draws people towards tyranny.
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Dispater probably also allows LN followers because of his wife, who he genuinely loves (even though she is absolutely 100% up to something.)
Our Blood Lords game had a Paladin of Erecura in it as a Sheep in Wolf's Clothing.
...and now I'm imagining a character who plays this for comedy. In particular, this character cycles through deities as a joke, deliberately twisting their edicts and anathemas as hard as they can - technically following the rules while blatantly "missing the point".
Like... it's Pharasma day! Time to start gratuitously pranking people with sleep spells! That's what "laying bodies to rest" means, right? Oh, don't worry. I've got my bag of holding full of blankets and pillows right here. We do want it to be restful, after all. Honestly, the people in this town could really use a few more naps. Hail Pharasma!
Dispater probably also allows LN followers because of his wife, who he genuinely loves (even though she is absolutely 100% up to something.)
Our Blood Lords game had a Paladin of Erecura in it as a Sheep in Wolf's Clothing.
Not even just his current wife, it's stated that even if his relationship with Feronia was very brief, the pair are still on quite good terms. Plus, he's just a big fan of gardening.
Very much the example of why someone might become interested in a system like Hell; always thought of Dispatar as a "honestly a pretty good guy as long as you ignore that one planet sized elephant" character, so very much a good representation on why someone might become interested in a system like Hell. Hope he won't have unholy sanctification, requiring it would damage that part of element of the deity (though I could see "all demonlords/archdevils/harbingers/empyreal lords require sanctification because they work for a plane" being a decision made).
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Yes. I think there needs to be a place for non-Unholy Clerics of some power in Hell, so that they can contribute unwittingly to the slow corruption of the masses. And also to slowly become corrupted into Unholy themselves.
Or... not?
There's nothing that says that serving an unholy master in a righteous way is inherently corrupting.
If you want the "Attempting to do good with the tools of evil, only to fall to the inevitable corruption that results", that's the story for the person who agreed to Unholy Sanctification as part of their price of entry.
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Detect Alignment exists pre-Remaster, and I’m assuming there’s other stuff I don’t know of off the top of my head. “A lot” overstated it, but it seems easier to buy a false Cleric running a long-term con without Alignment mechanics than with.What "mechanical space"?
Because unless you start using Divine Lance as a way to detect evil there's not much that could be done mechanically to detect a false Cleric.
Detect Alignment was super easy to fool, though. If you were intending to run a long con like this you'd just use the Undetectable Alignment spell, Magic Aura, and/or slippery secrets. And for that matter, I see no reason not to expect a "Detect Sanctification" spell to serve the exact same narrative function.
That said, the biggest obstacle to these stories is simply the Sense Motive and Lie rules. Even with an Extreme Deception score, nat 1s and nat 20s still happen. And building an entire story that can be derauiled with a single dice roll is a usually a bad idea.
Detect Alignment was super easy to fool, though. If you were intending to run a long con like this you'd just use the Undetectable Alignment spell, Magic Aura, and/or slippery secrets.
Did you mean misdirection, rather than magic aura?
Depends on how the various abilities are worded I'd suppose. If I can't determine their alignment because their aura is too weak to read (too low level), that's one thing, but if I can't sense their aura at all in order to determine alignment, that's going to be a pretty big red flag all its own. After all, why would anyone hide their alignment unless they were evil, intent upon doing evil, or were intentionally trying to conceal their true nature (such as a good-aligned Star Watch Agent infiltrating a criminal enterprise)? In all cases, they are not to be trusted.
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What high level casters are running around without any kind of protection from magical scrying/divination/detecting? People value privacy.
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Detect Alignment was super easy to fool, though. If you were intending to run a long con like this you'd just use the Undetectable Alignment spell, Magic Aura, and/or slippery secrets.Did you mean misdirection, rather than magic aura?
Depends on how the various abilities are worded I'd suppose. If I can't determine their alignment because their aura is too weak to read (too low level), that's one thing, but if I can't sense their aura at all in order to determine alignment, that's going to be a pretty big red flag all its own. After all, why would anyone hide their alignment unless they were evil, intent upon doing evil, or were intentionally trying to conceal their true nature (such as a good-aligned Star Watch Agent infiltrating a criminal enterprise)? In all cases, they are not to be trusted.
Why don't you look up the wording before you start wildly speculating?
"You shroud a creature or object in wards that hide its alignment. The target appears to be neutral to all effects that would detect its alignment."
Detect Alignment was super easy to fool, though. If you were intending to run a long con like this you'd just use the Undetectable Alignment spell, Magic Aura, and/or slippery secrets.Did you mean misdirection, rather than magic aura?
Depends on how the various abilities are worded I'd suppose. If I can't determine their alignment because their aura is too weak to read (too low level), that's one thing, but if I can't sense their aura at all in order to determine alignment, that's going to be a pretty big red flag all its own. After all, why would anyone hide their alignment unless they were evil, intent upon doing evil, or were intentionally trying to conceal their true nature (such as a good-aligned Star Watch Agent infiltrating a criminal enterprise)? In all cases, they are not to be trusted.
Why don't you look up the wording before you start wildly speculating?
"You shroud a creature or object in wards that hide its alignment. The target appears to be neutral to all effects that would detect its alignment."
Isn't Magic Aura a spell which only works on objects? That may have been Ravingdork's objection, though he did not clarify. Misdirection would still absolutely work to cause a creature to detect as neutral if you could target a neutral creature to hide behind, though.
Isn't Magic Aura a spell which only works on objects? That may have been Ravingdork's objection, though he did not clarify. Misdirection would still absolutely work to cause a creature to detect as neutral if you could target a neutral creature to hide behind, though.Detect Alignment was super easy to fool, though. If you were intending to run a long con like this you'd just use the Undetectable Alignment spell, Magic Aura, and/or slippery secrets.Did you mean misdirection, rather than magic aura?
Depends on how the various abilities are worded I'd suppose. If I can't determine their alignment because their aura is too weak to read (too low level), that's one thing, but if I can't sense their aura at all in order to determine alignment, that's going to be a pretty big red flag all its own. After all, why would anyone hide their alignment unless they were evil, intent upon doing evil, or were intentionally trying to conceal their true nature (such as a good-aligned Star Watch Agent infiltrating a criminal enterprise)? In all cases, they are not to be trusted.
Why don't you look up the wording before you start wildly speculating?
"You shroud a creature or object in wards that hide its alignment. The target appears to be neutral to all effects that would detect its alignment."
I'm talking about Undetectable Alignment.
Why don't you look up the wording before you start wildly speculating?
???
I did.
Isn't Magic Aura a spell which only works on objects? That may have been Ravingdork's objection, though he did not clarify.
At rank 1, yes - object only.
At rank 3, no - creatures become targetable too.
Though even at rank 3 I am not entirely sure how Magic Aura would mask alignment.
I was wrong about magic aura. Undetectable Alignment and Slippery Secrets are I should have included. I think there's a few more options out there too, but the first one is all you need. And it just makes you register as neutral, so the whole "if I can't detect their Alignment they must be evil" thing doesn't apply.
I'm talking about Undetectable Alignment.Isn't Magic Aura a spell which only works on objects? That may have been Ravingdork's objection, though he did not clarify. Misdirection would still absolutely work to cause a creature to detect as neutral if you could target a neutral creature to hide behind, though.Detect Alignment was super easy to fool, though. If you were intending to run a long con like this you'd just use the Undetectable Alignment spell, Magic Aura, and/or slippery secrets.Did you mean misdirection, rather than magic aura?
Depends on how the various abilities are worded I'd suppose. If I can't determine their alignment because their aura is too weak to read (too low level), that's one thing, but if I can't sense their aura at all in order to determine alignment, that's going to be a pretty big red flag all its own. After all, why would anyone hide their alignment unless they were evil, intent upon doing evil, or were intentionally trying to conceal their true nature (such as a good-aligned Star Watch Agent infiltrating a criminal enterprise)? In all cases, they are not to be trusted.
Why don't you look up the wording before you start wildly speculating?
"You shroud a creature or object in wards that hide its alignment. The target appears to be neutral to all effects that would detect its alignment."
Well, that unambiguously would do it. Who's evil? You don't detect evil on me. I worship a neutral deity.
Ring of Mind Shielding (it blocks a lot of things)
It certainly did in 1st Edition.
Most of the things you listed don't appear to exist in 2nd Edition.
Nondetection feels like it would be a very common spell
Nondetection feels like it would be a very common spell
They are all uncommon, so the GM has the final say about alignment mechanics being used like this. In PF2 rarity is about giving the GM the choice.
It is all being modified anyway.Non detection being a counteract check makes it fairly useless defensively, as the other party can always try again. I think Private Sanctum works better in that regard.
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The idea has been floated a couple times that not getting a hit off detect alignment should be automatically suspicious, but I'm not sure I'm following. Not detecting an alignment is one of only two possible outcomes of casting the spell Detect Alignment, with the other outcome being "Yes, they are of the queried alignment"
If you cast Detect Alignment [Evil] on a group of NPCs including a paladin of Sarenrae, a handful of commoners, and a devious 5th level poisoner who was behind the recent spate of mysterious deaths, you will get "No Evil". Of whom would you be suspicious?
I must have simply missed a different spell being discussed again, but I can think of no other way (short of a blast of alignment damage) to discern somebody's alignment.
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Yes. I think there needs to be a place for non-Unholy Clerics of some power in Hell, so that they can contribute unwittingly to the slow corruption of the masses. And also to slowly become corrupted into Unholy themselves.Or... not?
There's nothing that says that serving an unholy master in a righteous way is inherently corrupting.
If you want the "Attempting to do good with the tools of evil, only to fall to the inevitable corruption that results", that's the story for the person who agreed to Unholy Sanctification as part of their price of entry.
Not inherently corrupting. Just a very useful path of entry to tempt those who do not dare to go Unholy at first to actually take that step eventually.
Corruption (or redemption) as an ongoing process, that can indeed be resisted, interests me much more, as stories go, than predetermined Unholiness/Holiness.
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Most Gods are not going to be rules lawyers or non-sapient magic dispensors. If you are a cleric doing horrible things that technically doesn't break a edict or fall into Anathema territory, I think the Deity is still going to yank your powers.
Good gods would have higher standards...I don't think in a few cases its going to be easier to play a evil or even "neutralish" character than it is with codified alignment.
It's probably a lot easier however to be a good character worshiping a evil. Mostly because I assume evil gods are less picky about there followers as long as they accomplish their goals in the world, and beings like devils probably actually appreciate the cover that good worshipers in the community give there less nice worshipers.
I doubt outright evil gods are going to have any appreciable number of good worshipers. Neutral maybe, but not good. But I expect that most neutral worshipers probably pretend to be good by doing good acts so as to not arouse suspicion of being an evil cultist.
Just because good and evil are no longer rules elements doesn't mean that those concepts cease to exist within the context of the game world. They're more grey than they were before, but I doubt you'll have blatantly evil beings being supported by good gods because hopefully there will be a common tenet about respecting the lives and well being of others among good deities.
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I imagine most clergy of every god will believe that they are doing good by practicing their faith, it is just that they might have a very narrow definition of what "doing good" will mean.
But I am worried people might really be underestimating and not understanding how counteract checks work, and why a spell like nondection would be an almost default spell for any caster higher than level 5 for their daily lives. I get that it is listed as uncommon, so it can be shut down by GMs that don't want espionage/counter espionage to be a role in their campaigns at all, but if that is the case, then "wolf in sheep's clothing" is a bad fit for any character in that GM's game. The level 6 feat "Nameless Anonymity" almost makes the whole magic warrior archetype worth it for any wizard because it auto-hightens nondetection, but even regular nondetection will pretty much shut down things like detect alignment, detect magic and other common low level detection spells, especially cantrips which are all treated as 1st level spells against nondetection.
A regular Detect alignment spell requires a critical success to overcome a level 3 nondetection spell. And the thing is, the caster has no reason to try to hide that they have protected themselves generally from scrying magic. That is a perfectly reasonable thing for anyone who can do to do without casting suspicion on themselves. "I have enemies that you don't want knowing I am here" uttered from anyone that looks like a caster would make perfect sense to any general townsfolk.
A regular Detect alignment spell requires a critical success to overcome a level 3 nondetection spell. And the thing is, the caster has no reason to try to hide that they have protected themselves generally from scrying magic. That is a perfectly reasonable thing for anyone who can do to do without casting suspicion on themselves. "I have enemies that you don't want knowing I am here" uttered from anyone that looks like a caster would make perfect sense to any general townsfolk.
What you have written here is actually the least compelling reason. Anyone who uses any magic to hide themselves in any capacity is going to warrant additional research and scrutiny. Whether potentially good or evil. It is an inherently suspicious activity. Anyone with the means to magically determine someone's penchant for causing problem is going to be all the more wary of anyone trying to hide themselves.
It may in fact be true that Gandalf has enemies that he doesn't (and you wouldn't by proximity) want knowing where he is. But how do you know that is actual Gandalf and not Saruman?
*Yes I know neither displayed abilities for imitating others or magical hiding their presence that I'm aware of but the general idea remains.