With the disbanding of alignment and the implementation of the sanctification system, is there anything (aside from GM fiat) preventing a player from making an evil cleric under a goodly deity or faith, or vice versa? Should there be?
I know we will have Anathema, Edicts, and similar directives, but they tend to be fairly limited in scope, and so often allow a lot of wiggle room for anything outside those bounds.
What kind of non-disruptive, fun ideas might we come up with if this dichotomy is permitted? What kind of stories could be told that simply weren't possible before?
A corrupt and greedy priest who pockets more of the church's donations than he should? A grey paladin looting the dead of the Worldwound? A crazed individual whose devout faith is ever at odds with their compulsive impulses? An infiltrator who pays lip service in exchange for power? A blackgaurd who follows dark masters to stay alive, but yerns for the freedom to make their own choices? A maiden trained as a Devil Nun, or Sister of the Golden Erinyes, who has broken away from the cult towards a life of adventure?
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With the disbanding of alignment and the implementation of the sanctification system, is there anything (aside from GM fiat) preventing a player from making an evil cleric under a goodly deity or faith, or vice versa? Should there be?
With the removal of alignment there will no more be evil clerics.
I feel that your story doesn't exist. Either you are infiltrating a church and as such are no cleric of that deity or you are a cleric of that deity and as such are not infiltrating anything.
What kind of non-disruptive, fun ideas might we come up with if this dichotomy is permitted? What kind of stories could be told that simply weren't possible before?
It's just that you can't assume that a follower of a good deity is good. But I hardly think Sarenrae would give powers to an evil Cleric so I'm not sure it changes anything.
I don't see any reason that Deceptive Worship is going to be unprinted.
Like seriously, in PF2 with Clerics having Edicts and Anathema already, how would you do any of these scenarios in PF2.4?
A corrupt and greedy priest who pockets more of the church's donations than he should? A grey paladin looting the dead of the Worldwound? A crazed individual whose devout faith is ever at odds with their compulsive impulses? An infiltrator who pays lip service in exchange for power? A blackgaurd who follows dark masters to stay alive, but yerns for the freedom to make their own choices? A maiden trained as a Devil Nun, or Sister of the Golden Erinyes, who has broken away from the cult towards a life of adventure?
Whatever method you come up with for PF2.4 will probably work in PF2.5 too.
And as for PF2.5 being more relaxed than PF2.4 with the removal of alignment, I think the Edicts and Anathema and Sanctification system will have most things covered.
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I never realised that it was the alignment system that prevented my players from rolling evil characters and tricking other players and me that they're not evil, only to reveal their true colours midway through the campaign by slitting the throat of a child they were escorting and laughing maniacally while covered in blood, shouting HA HA HA I WAS EVIL ALL ALONG!!!
I always thought it's just my players not being idiots and dicks, but now I know the truth.
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Finally, the legendary paladin of asmodeus is upon us.
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Finally, the legendary paladin of asmodeus is upon us.
Pretty sure the Tenets and Edicts of the Paladin Cause will probably still restrict them from being worshippers of Asmodeus, so nice try.
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Finally, the legendary paladin of asmodeus is upon us.Pretty sure the Tenets and Edicts of the Paladin Cause will probably still restrict them from being worshippers of Asmodeus, so nice try.
An Asmodeon Tyrant Champion with Thaumaturge (amulet) archetype could probably fake it well enough though.
A Cacodaemon shows up
Tyrant character surreptitiously sprinkles some powdered daisy onto his sword.
"Smite Evil"
Finally, the legendary paladin of asmodeus is upon us.Pretty sure the Tenets and Edicts of the Paladin Cause will probably still restrict them from being worshippers of Asmodeus, so nice try.An Asmodeon Tyrant Champion with Thaumaturge (amulet) archetype could probably fake it well enough though.
A Cacodaemon shows up
Tyrant character surreptitiously sprinkles some powdered daisy onto his sword.
"Smite Evil"
To the untrained or oblivious, sure. But throw in somebody that actually knows what's up (such as an actual Thaumaturge) or a non-Asmodean worshipper? They'll do some checks and eventually see through the deception.
For instance, can a bunny-petting non-sanctified cleric cast chilling darkness ? It's got the [unholy] trait, but if the cleric isn't sanctified to good I'm not sure if that matters.
I haven't seen the new Chilling Darkness, so still going off of the old one. I also haven't seen the full new Remastered rules regarding Sanctification - just the Remaster preview.
Disclaimers aside, what I would do if I was a developer and looking at this:
Chilling Darkness would be able to be cast by a spellcaster not sanctified as unholy. But it wouldn't do the evil unholy damage. It would only do the cold damage and light counteract. The Remastered version of Chilling Darkness probably doesn't have the evil damage listed, it would just be triggering the unholy weakness that celestials would have from their good sanctification.
I never realised that it was the alignment system that prevented my players from rolling evil characters and tricking other players and me that they're not evil, only to reveal their true colours midway through the campaign by slitting the throat of a child they were escorting and laughing maniacally while covered in blood, shouting HA HA HA I WAS EVIL ALL ALONG!!!
I always thought it's just my players not being idiots and dicks, but now I know the truth.
LOL. I do believe I asked for non-disruptive ideas.
Link didn't work, but I am familiar with Ravingdork's pdf.
So Chilling Darkness Remastered has the Unholy trait, but not the Sanctified trait. Which makes sense because it would be redundant. Sanctified trait just means that it will be replaced with either Holy or Unholy trait depending on the user of the spell or ability.
Looking at the Remaster preview, I am not seeing anything in the rules that prevents someone from using a spell with the Unholy trait if they themselves are not sanctified. Nothing says that the trait on the spell or the spells effects don't work either.
So yeah. Bunny-cuddler caster throwing Chilling Darkness around looks like it would work fine.
To the untrained or oblivious, sure. But throw in somebody that actually knows what's up (such as an actual Thaumaturge) or a non-Asmodean worshipper? They'll do some checks and eventually see through the deception.An Asmodeon Tyrant Champion with Thaumaturge (amulet) archetype could probably fake it well enough though.
A Cacodaemon shows up
Tyrant character surreptitiously sprinkles some powdered daisy onto his sword.
"Smite Evil"
Depends on their relative level and proficiency ;)
Not every challenge should be an on-level challenge.
Let's look at the non-disruptive version of this.
- (PC concept) Someone who acts in a way that we would consider generally "good", but who follows an evil deity (and holds to their tenets)
- (Adversary group concept) A group that follows what would normally be considered a good deity, and holds to their tenets, but is clearly doing evil in the world.
I had another thread that was sort of about this some time ago, actually.
...but yeah, one of the big questions is going to be which deities require sanctification (Holy or Unholy) of their clergy.
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Finally, the legendary paladin of asmodeus is upon us.Pretty sure the Tenets and Edicts of the Paladin Cause will probably still restrict them from being worshippers of Asmodeus, so nice try.
This will depend of how paladins anathema will be in Core 2.
Currently the Champions Good Tenets are:You must never perform acts anathema to your deity or willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.
You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it. This tenet doesn't force you to take action against possible harm to innocents at an indefinite time in the future, or to sacrifice your life to protect them.
Once we no-more get alignment I believe that this part of evil spells will change to unholy spells.
Let us see the paladin cause now:
You must act with honor, never taking advantage of others, lying, or cheating.
You must respect the lawful authority of legitimate leadership wherever you go, and follow its laws.
And finally let us see tha Asmodeus anathema:
Anathema break a contract, free a slave, insult Asmodeus by showing mercy to your enemies
So unless that Paizo adds that Paladins cannot get unholy and that Asmodeus gets "must choose unholy" using only anathemas has bases will be possible to make an Asmodeus' Paladin once nothing in its anathema goes against Paladins anathema (a even so by order of importance the deity anathema wins when you have no choice).
Let's look at the non-disruptive version of this.
- (PC concept) Someone who acts in a way that we would consider generally "good", but who follows an evil deity (and holds to their tenets)
- (Adversary group concept) A group that follows what would normally be considered a good deity, and holds to their tenets, but is clearly doing evil in the world.
I had another thread that was sort of about this some time ago, actually.
Thanks, Sanityfaerie!
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My assumption is that anybody who is actually drawing power from Hell, the Outer Rifts, etc. will need to be sanctified as unholy.
But if you're just a real big jerk, you can just be a real big jerk and you don't have to write "evil" on your character sheet or anything. You can be a guy who beats people up when they're late on repaying their loans, who is also kind to children and animals and you don't have to figure out what that means in terms of the cosmic battle between good and evil.
To be fair, Arazni already allows CG followers, so you can have a Liberator worshipping her even though she's NE. That PC concept is already legal.
Sir, you are technically correct.
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Finally, the legendary paladin of asmodeus is upon us.Pretty sure the Tenets and Edicts of the Paladin Cause will probably still restrict them from being worshippers of Asmodeus, so nice try.An Asmodeon Tyrant Champion with Thaumaturge (amulet) archetype could probably fake it well enough though.
A Cacodaemon shows up
Tyrant character surreptitiously sprinkles some powdered daisy onto his sword.
"Smite Evil"
The abbot watches as the new acolyte walks up the steps and into the temple of Calistria.
"Ah, welcome to your first day here young man.""Yes. Hello, I'm -" he begins, but stops when another robed monk gives him a hard stare while crossing the room towards them, the clink of metal giving away the fact that under that robe the man is wearing chain mail.
"Ah. New acolyte," the large man says. "We will make sure that you are trained well." He gives a cold and somewhat sinister smile, then continues on his way into a different room.
The new acolyte watches the armored monk leave and asks the abbot, "Who is that? And do I have to work with him regularly?"
"Oh," the abbot replies. "That is Aemeran. He is generally nice enough - as long as you give him his due respect." He leans forward and whispers conspiratorially, "He is a bit of an odd one. It is rumored that he doesn't actually follow Calistria. But you didn't hear that from me." The abbot turns and walks farther into the small temple, gesturing for the new acolyte to follow. "Still, he is a reasonably well respected member of this temple. He keeps the finances in immaculate order and makes sure that nothing ever 'goes missing'. Make sure that you don't cross him in that regard - you won't like the result."
Hurrying along, the acolyte asks quietly, "But, if he isn't following the tenets of Calistria, then how...?" He fumbles with trying to find words to ask the question without leveling an accusation that may not be taken well.
"Now, you leave Aemeran for me to worry about," the abbot waves away the question. "He follows the tenets well enough for the most part. I haven't had to assassinate him yet, at least. And if you can't handle one monk employing a bit of deception, then I don't think you are going to last very long here." He winks at the young acolyte. "Consider him part of your training."
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This actually got me thinking, and (as someone who is very glad to see Alignment go) some interesting ideas stood out to me. Admittedly mostly based around Champion, since they were more tightly woven with Alignment and thus have more wiggle room now.
First one that's on the lower-end of controversy, Gorum. Formerly Chaotic Neutral, and for whatever reason hard locked out of even Chaotic Good, Gorum could not have Champions on the Good-leaning side. But now, let's look at Gorum's actual Edicts and Anathema as previously printed:
Edicts: attain victory in fair combat, push your limits, wear armor in combat
Anathema: kill prisoners or surrendering foes, prevent conflict through negotiation, win a battle through underhanded tactics or indirect magic
Nothing seems to interfere with Heroic Champion ideology there, and in fact the first Anathema even seems downright Honorable to me. Paladin of Gorum? Makes sense to me.
Now for one that might be more controversial (and I've even had a couple GMs in my own group say they probably wouldn't allow but YMMV), let's look at the (formerly CE, obviously) Demon Lord Dagon.
Edicts: Swim underwater, improve your own strength, encourage the spread of dangerous sea monsters
Anathema: Break a sworn oath, settle in a land-locked area, share Dagon’s secrets with outsiders
So uh... there's only one there I can see that even *might* actually cause an issue with even a Paladin's ideals, and that's the last Edict. After all, dangerous sea monsters tend to be, well, dangerous. But, see, here's the thing: Just because something is dangerous, doesn't mean it's Evil per say. Imagine an inhabitant of the Shackles out there brokering agreements between coastal towns and some of the more intelligent sea monsters, even setting up deals where the coastal town provides food and care for some of the monsters, in exchange for protection. Sea monster gets a safe den where it's not gonna get hunted by every rando with a sword and dreams of grandeur, town gets a guardian that might make the next wandering pirate pause before razing the town (I'm pretty sure pirates, or anyone else who might raze a coastal town, count as Innocents). And imagine they do it successfully enough that they even inspire others to do similarly. Now, to me... that meets that third Edict. The sea monsters are still plenty dangerous, heck that's literally what they contribute to the dal, and through that Paladin's direct actions, they are being spread. And I don't believe that has violated a single clause of the Paladin code. Unless some legitimate authority in the Shackles... I can't even finish this sentence, just that much alone gets me laughing.
Another one that just came to me, and this would be an interesting one to actually have as part of the party I think: A Swashbuckling Antipaladin of Cayden Cailean. Going off of what we have from the existing version (noting it might well change, but work with what we've got) as an Antipally of Cayden Cailean, your Edicts and Anathema in order would be (taking Edicts and Anathema from Tenets and Cause as appropriate):
Edicts: drink, free slaves and aid the oppressed, seek glory and adventure, put your Deity's needs before your own, and your own needs before another's (though you can perform acts others might consider helpful, it must be done with the expectation that it ultimately furthers your own goals or those of your master), act dishonorably, take advantage of others, lie, cheat, and steal to get what you want, destroy that which offends you and that which stands in your way, including—and perhaps especially—the forces of Good and Law that oppose you
Anathema: waste alcohol, be mean or standoffish when drunk, own a slave, commit a purely good act (such as giving something solely out of charity, casting a Holy spell, or using a Holy item), bind yourself with any law or oath beyond that of your code
Now, it might not be as easy as some of them, but (setting aside the possibility of being forcibly Holy Sanctified) it would be possible to build a character that meets all those priorities. The kind of character who topples corrupt governments and frees slaves not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because they revel in the glory and celebration, and will undoubtedly profit off those they "helped". And hey, you can be a total jerk who lies, cheats, and steals, without being Mean or Standoffish if you play it well.
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LOL. I do believe I asked for non-disruptive ideas.I never realised that it was the alignment system that prevented my players from rolling evil characters and tricking other players and me that they're not evil, only to reveal their true colours midway through the campaign by slitting the throat of a child they were escorting and laughing maniacally while covered in blood, shouting HA HA HA I WAS EVIL ALL ALONG!!!
I always thought it's just my players not being idiots and dicks, but now I know the truth.
Since when is killing children disruptive? You can always make new ones. See, this is what Chaotic Good is all about, you think outside of the box society tries to fit you in.
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It's just that you can't assume that a follower of a good deity is good. But I hardly think Sarenrae would give powers to an evil Cleric so I'm not sure it changes anything.
Because I strongly prefer both playing and GMing largely good guy parties, this is more an NPC idea, but while I agree Sarenrae wouldn’t empower an evil Cleric, there’s a lot more mechanical space without alignment for an evil Cleric empowered by an evil deity masquerading as a Cleric of Sarenrae.
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I am confused why "evil" PCs would be worshiping gods that have edicts/anathema's against being self-serving or not compassionate. Are we talking about a character who is selfless and helps others but also has a compulsion to steal from others, or an inability to stop themselves from doing terrible things to people that they believe are bad people? Because alignment was really never a good tool for telling those kind of stories in the first place, and those are stories that don't suddenly become "fun" or "easy" stories to fit in a light-hearted game just because alignment is gone. Many of them would slip into "disruptive" stories whether there was alignment or not.
Possible character idea is a cleric of Abadar who is corrupt and embezzles and does arrogent CEO stuff. They don't have spells but they use Bluff, magic items, their own authority and bribes to keep their position.
When I first saw this thread, I thought people were talking about the creature and not a person.
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I am confused why "evil" PCs would be worshiping gods that have edicts/anathema's against being self-serving or not compassionate.
Yeah, the evil character doing deceptive non-worship of a good deity is a lot easier to do.
Having an 'evil' character doing actual worship of a good deity would be a lot harder.
One that I can think of is a character that is trying to reform. Starting out pretty evil and having a lot of bad habits and vices. Handling being tempted to fall back to evil actions in order to save themselves, or succeed at their plans. Things like that. Part of their character growth arc is to get better at being good. Or fall fully back into being evil.
Not something that I would bring to a PFS style 'meet with a random group at the local FLGS and have a quick game' type of campaign though. The entire table would have to be on board with that style of character in the party.
And no, I don't think that the existence of Alignment or its absence makes any difference to this type of story telling.
Because I strongly prefer both playing and GMing largely good guy parties, this is more an NPC idea, but while I agree Sarenrae wouldn’t empower an evil Cleric, there’s a lot more mechanical space without alignment for an evil Cleric empowered by an evil deity masquerading as a Cleric of Sarenrae.
What "mechanical space"?
Because unless you start using Divine Lance as a way to detect evil there's not much that could be done mechanically to detect a false Cleric.
IDK for me whiled the Edicts and Anathema are important they aren't the end all be all of a Deity or their faith and can often give a false perception if they are the only things being looked at. Their context within lore, what their faith preaches and such are important to them and their outlook on things and thus the kind of people they will grant powers to. And seeing edicts and anathemas as sort of stretching out what someone can get away with just is not what i like about divine classes. Obviously play however you feel at your tables and such, and I think in some cases their will be new stretches of flexibility. But I think I just come at these thing from a completely different angle.
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I once played a Lawful Good monk who worshipped the Chaotic Good god Desna. This is Law versus Chaos rather than Good versus Evil, but it is a real example.
This was in 2010-2011. The character Abu started as a gnome ranger from Sanos Forest in Varisia in a Rise of the Runelords campaign. I had envisioned him as a young man who wanted to see the world, so Desna, a god of travel, seemed appropriate for his religion. However, the other players were more chaotic than me, not caring about the details of party cohesion and good relations with Sheriff Hemlock. Abu took the role of the organized guy who dealt with such matters, because no-one else was doing it. Nevertheless, Abu often indulged in friendly gnomish pranks, such as changing the name of the party every time he put up a poster advertising our services, to remind people that he was Chaotic.
Then at 6th level he multiclassed to monk. Monks had to be Lawful, so I asked the GM whether I could switch Abu's alignment to Lawful Good. She said, "You have been playing him as lawful all along, so I have no objection to that. However, I have some conditions on multiclassing." I had to invent a new backstory that explained his monk training. He had learned monk discipline in a summer camp for gnome teenagers.
Though Abu switched alignments, he did not stop worshiping Desna. In his new backstory, the family faith in Desna had kept him from embracing the monk way of life. But he was still a wanderer by nature and saw himself as faithful to the tenets of Desna. This was PF1, so we had no edicts and anathema, but in retrospect, he did adhere to the Edicts and Anathema of Desna, which have nothing against the self-discipline of a monk adventurer, but would be broken by a monk who shut off from the world in a monastery.
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Possible character idea is a cleric of Abadar who is corrupt and embezzles and does arrogent CEO stuff. They don't have spells but they use Bluff, magic items, their own authority and bribes to keep their position.
When I first saw this thread, I thought people were talking about the creature and not a person.
If you're a cleric of Abadar you can't bribe government officials, that would break the "follow the rule of law" edict. You have to lobby them instead. :)
If you're a cleric of Abadar you can't bribe government officials, that would break the "follow the rule of law" edict. You have to lobby them instead. :)Possible character idea is a cleric of Abadar who is corrupt and embezzles and does arrogent CEO stuff. They don't have spells but they use Bluff, magic items, their own authority and bribes to keep their position.
When I first saw this thread, I thought people were talking about the creature and not a person.
There is technically no law about me putting this chest of gold under your bed and forgetting about it.....
Teleport let's you take along four other people, so the spell would really just be wasted if I didn't take a free ride to a fancy hunting villa....
If you're a cleric of Abadar you can't bribe government officials, that would break the "follow the rule of law" edict. You have to lobby them instead. :)Possible character idea is a cleric of Abadar who is corrupt and embezzles and does arrogent CEO stuff. They don't have spells but they use Bluff, magic items, their own authority and bribes to keep their position.
When I first saw this thread, I thought people were talking about the creature and not a person.
There are no doubt many examples of people doing what they shouldn't do even though they are told otherwise so a 'Rules for thee, not for me.' could do well.
Plus it can be a good adventure idea, root out the scammers and unfaithful.
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If you're a cleric of Abadar you can't bribe government officials, that would break the "follow the rule of law" edict. You have to lobby them instead. :)Possible character idea is a cleric of Abadar who is corrupt and embezzles and does arrogent CEO stuff. They don't have spells but they use Bluff, magic items, their own authority and bribes to keep their position.
When I first saw this thread, I thought people were talking about the creature and not a person.
There are no doubt many examples of people doing what they shouldn't do even though they are told otherwise so a 'Rules for thee, not for me.' could do well.
Plus it can be a good adventure idea, root out the scammers and unfaithful.
The presence of a powerful entity who knows when you've been naughty and can take your toys away makes it a lot harder to get away with outright breaking the rules than it is in the real world. However, being a Cleric of Abadar lends your word extra weight. Plenty of ways an enterprising individual can simply ensure the things they want to do are not illegal.
The presence of a powerful entity who knows when you've been naughty and can take your toys away makes it a lot harder to get away with outright breaking the rules than it is in the real world. However, being a Cleric of Abadar lends your word extra weight. Plenty of ways an enterprising individual can simply ensure the things they want to do are not illegal.
The aforementioned lobbying, for example, can have all sorts of effects on what is and is not illegal.
Yes.
...and now I'm imagining rival priests of Abadar (one good, one evil) locked into bitter conflict over what the laws are, not because they acre about the specific laws per se, but as a very personal struggle where each is in it primarily to thwart and bind the other.
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Yeaaaaah maybe don't. Just, like, why.
Anyway, back on track. I do think this change will be nice from a setting perspective, since now the PCs can't judge any and all worshipers by the listed "follower alignments" in the Core Rulebook. It's no longer the case that when you encounter Mephistopheles priests you can just follow the syllogism "he's evil, therefore you're evil, therefore SMITE!"
This already didn't work, because "evil" and "person you can murder on the street" were not the same thing, but it's nice to see it codified.
I don't think anything is changing there, realistically. "You follow Mephistopheles, who requires unholy sanctification, therefore SMITE" is still in effect to the same degree that the old chain of logic was.