I'm growing more curious about how Paizo is doing this... Do y'all think that Paizo are considering meta consquences of the death of the deity, or nah?
For example, the death of a deity like Urgathoa or Iomedae would leave the Core 20 with some odd blanks. Iomedae missing would leave no iconic paladin deity on the pantheon for paladin players, and no personable deity between the more (cof lawful) orderly and benevolent options of the core 20. Likewise, no deity of undeath seems like a strange blank for the pantheon. Do you think that reasons like these are enough for Paizo to disconsiderer a deity from dancing their last dance?
(Keeping in mind for these examples that Paizo devs have said that Arazni won't be replacing whoever gets the boot et all).
I mean, they can't really make Arazni *not* a deity of undeath. She's the patron of those who find themselves undead and are resentful of her circumstances. People who want to make undead or revel in their undead nature or make more undead can follow a minor deity like Charon, Zura, and Kabiri.
After all, liches, vampires, necromancers etc. are already going to have outré beliefs. The deity a necromancer prays to in order to do better necromancy doesn't need to be someone who is publicly acceptable to worship.
I feel like there are some "roles" that are far less dramatic for player and GM options if they are left blank for a while (or even forever). Like Iomedae role as the paladin godess, or Irori as the monk god aren't that far reaching in the end, there isn't any "bard god", and the class is still fine. Paladin that want to play a crusader type character can still pick Torag or Sarenrae and roleplay them pretty much the same way they would an Iomedan. Monks don't even need a god in the first place, and even if he die, they can still follow Irori exemple despite him being gone now, he was always more of an inspiration than a leader for them anyway. Meanwhile, if there isn't any god of undeath or of magic anymore, it leave a much bigger hole.
I do think that since paizo have stated that Arazni won't take over the lost god role, and that since they also said that it wasn't some kind of fakeout (where the lost god come back in some form), there are some gods that simply were never on the table for removal. Pharasma was an obvious one (even if some people though she was likely to kick the bucket), and I would add Rovagug too, despite not being confirmed safe yet. As for the rest, I think the main consideration was wether the absence of their role hindered player option or not, rather than how their absence would affect golarion itself. So here's my view on how their domain affect each god likeliness to be "it" :
- Norgorber could be summed up as a "class god" for rogue like Irori is one for the monk, but he is also the one evil god that area of interest is the "normal" criminals. Not just the crazed murderous cultist like 95% of the rest of the evil deities have (altho he also have those), but the common thief, the smugglers, the spies, the so call "morally grey" character that aren't just absolute sociopath. No other core god fit this niche, which is too important an option for both player and GM, so he's gonna stay.
- Sarenrae is the godess of "the big good", the one that represent the most morally upstanding yet also understanding characters, and this is an important option to have. Shelyn also fit this bill however, so one of the two could be gone, as the other godess would be here to "pick up the slack". So the question is about what is most important about their remaining portfolio, between the angel godess of light and the sun, and the godess of beauty and the arts, I do feel like Shelyn fall behind, as people interested by the latter can simply go toward Calistria or Desna, or even Nocticula if they step out of the core 20, while Sarenrae's niche is more difficult to fill until you go searching deeper into empyreal lord territory, far too unknown for the incredibly popular "shinning beacon of light and good" archetype.
- Abadar is the god of "civilisation", industry, capitalism, law and all things orderly. This is a pretty important niche, but none of his domain feel unique. From both side of the alignment grid, Asmodeus, Torag and even Erastil in some way all possess part of his portfolio, and only the role of "god of money" really feel unique to him in the core 20, a role that is niche enought for players and NPC to be filled by secondary deity. Furthermore, the fact that multiple gods, both evil and good, fit his portfolio mean that if he were to die, his clergy would be divided between two polar opposite, which may make for good storyline.
- Gozreh is in a weird spot, as the god of nature, the elements and the climate. One might think that a god of nature is an incredibly important thing to have, but it isn't quite the case, for the reason that in my experience, nature oriented characters are simply far less likely to follow a god than the rest of them. These characters usually seems to focus on "the natural world" as a whole instead of an entity which is the incarnation of said world, and to be either atheist, animist or to follow something like the green faith. In that regard, the god of nature being gone make a hole in the pantheon lore wise, but not really as far as player option is concerned. Furthermore, Erastil is here for anyone wanting to make a "rural" character, and Lamashtu is here for anyone wanting to make a "wild" one. The one part of his portfolio that would really be missing is as the climate god, which IMO isn't quite as important as far as core options are concerned. He seems to me as one of those most likely to be "it".
- Irori have the same predicament. He is the god of monks, knownledge and self improvement, but knowledge is already share with a lot of other gods and "monks" as well as "self improvement" focussed characters are both archetype likely to follow no god at all, instead focussing inward. As such, it wouldn't hurt player or GM option much to have his role disapearing from the core gods.
- Lamashtu and Rovagug both share quite a lot, being the core gods you go to if you want to focus on madness or monstruosity, not a popular choice as far as PC are concerned, but a very important option in a GM toolbox if they want antagonist idea right from the core books. If we look at their other domain, Rovagug is the most important to keep, as he is the one core deity GM would use if they want doomsday cult and scenario in their game. On the other hand, Lamashtu's domain are far more aggreable in the PC side of things, but none of them are unique, "madness" and "monstruosity" can go to Rovagug, "beastly" and "wild" can go to Gozreh. I'm certain that she is not the one that will die, but her domain don't especially protect her here.
- Iomedae and Urgathoa are very different, but are put together for a simple reason. Urgathoa domain over undead is too important to lose, the necromancer/intelligent undead is too important for GM to have for her not to be a core option. Iomedae meanwhile isn't that important, because all that she ennable can be ennabled by other core gods, mostly Sarenrae and Torag (depending on if you want your righteous crusader to be nice or harsh). However their domains both ensure their safety for a simple reason, which is the fact that they are too close to Arazni in some way for her not to grab their domain if they were the one who die. And since we know Arazni won't swipe the dead god's domain, these two are safe.
- Zon Kuthon domain over pain and cenobite things is cool, but a bit niche to secure a place in the core 20 alone, his real draw being the one core god of darkness and shadows. However, Norgorber also fit the niche of a PC character and NPC themed around darkness and shadows, so he isn't alone in that. Furthermore, his relationship with Shelyn mean that she could theorically "switch" to his domain if he was to be removed. So all in all, I don't think Zon is safe, altho he isn't my first choice of victim.
- Nethys just feel too important to lose. Like nature themed character, the magic oriented ones are usually not really pious, but unlike Gozreh, Nethys was made with this in mind, as he don't care for worship, and instead provide and take away power on a whim, something that perfectly fit the "wizard hungry for magic" PC archetype and the "mad with power" villain for the GM all at once. Nethys thus feel quite safe.
-Erastil and Torag both aren't safe at all. Their domain over community and protecting your own can be absorbed by each other or Abadar, Erastil rural/natural outlook also fit Gozreh and Torag industriousness fit Abadar. The only thing that protect Torag is that he is the one dwarven god out of the core 20, but I don't the core 20 need a racial deity, even if the dwarves are stereotipically the most religious core ancestry.
- Gorum feel like a god made for barbarian in particular, and battle hungry characters in particular. Both are pretty popular, but can also easily find replacement in the core 20, Lamashtu or Rovagug for the savage/wild/"barbaric" characters, while Cayden fit the rest of the character seeking "the thrill of battle" without being raving lunatics.
- Speaking of him, Cayden Cailean seems to me like the "basic god of adventuring", the kind new players go for if they don't have much idea and simply want to make a very archetypal "good and adventurous with no real goal or backstory" character, and his simplicity kinda protect him I believe, as no other core god fit this very simple "god of adventure" kind of niche.
- Calistria is the godess that most support the very popular "seducer" PC stereotype, but this can also be filled by Cayden pretty easily. Her true niche to me lie in fitting mercurial "trickster" characters, but while I know that it's popular for player character and NPC alike, these don't tend to be overly religious, instead focusing mostly inward, so like Irori or Gozreh, Calistria feel like a godess that could be gone without really hurting player options much.
- Finally, Desna is with Cayden the godess most fit for the extremely popular "carefree good" characters. But more than just that, her domains over dreams, travels and the sky also make her the main option for a plethora of other kind of PC and important NPC, the explorer or traveller, the whimsical ones, the "seemingly foolish yet wise" ones, etc. And while she don't technically have a domain over arts, she's also an incredibly popular choice for "artsy" and colorfull characters, almost on par with Shelyn from what I saw. While these character archetype are often shared with other deity, or not amongst the most popular, the fact that she alone seems to inspire so many of them mean that I highly doubt that Paizo would remove her and leave a hole were she stood.
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Except when it does, in some specific circumstances. Iron Gods spoilers here.Spoiler:That was Unity's final plan after gaining digital divinity in Silver Mount. It was able to use living brains as a kind of faith battery, empowering itself by re-writing minds to believe in it. There are a few banks of them in the final book, and Unity's ultimate goal was to use the Divinity Drive to spread itself across the planet like a memetic virus, forcing everyone to worship it and become more powerful. Granted, it could have just been wrong in its grasp of the mechanics.
Boy, wouldn't it be ironic if:
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I so happened to be rereading some of the Windsong Testaments when I noticed something that caught my attention. Abadar naturally appears in the story "On Family Bonds", given that he is the one who managed to coax Zon-Kuthon into imprisonment, but what I found significant was that in the story he is described as the protector of society, even among the gods. It is said that he saw the rumblings of a civil war among the gods because of the fight between Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon, and stepped in to prevent it.
I don't necessarily think Abadar is going to be the god to die, but I'm realizing that the idea isn't as unlikely as I had initially thought. If the coming war of immortals is anything that Abadar could have foreseen, he might have tried stepping in to stop it and found himself the first victim torn to shreds across the universe.
Okay yeah, so then Rovagug is going on my list of "gods we most need to find out what happens when they die, either via what-if or from them actually dying", along with Nethys.
If we're looking at things from a cosmic standpoint, then Desna is suddenly very likely. She's the only god in Golarion (so far as we know) who is actively keeping tabs on the Dark Tapestry. Who knows what might show up if there's nobody watching the stars, and the major powers are exhausted after fighting each other.
And we're getting a compatible Starfinder 2e, which will have all the tech we need to portray the Dominion of the Black.
And it occurs to me that Desna once took it upon herself to kill a demon lord, which almost set off a war like the one that's been described.
Desna just shot up in my rankings.
Cayden Caelian survives! In a prophecy that doesn't seem to work in the setting but does reveal some interesting details - the same hand is writing all these prophecies.
In any case, good for him! Never thought he was in danger but still.
Cayden Caelian survives! In a prophecy that doesn't seem to work in the setting but does reveal some interesting details - the same hand is writing all these prophecies.
In any case, good for him! Never thought he was in danger but still.
I thought so too; didn't we establish that belief does not a god make? Or is it belief doesn't determine their power but CAN make them a god in the first place?
The conclusion I've come to, is that belief itself can't make someone a god; HOWEVER, when they're carrying around a jug of become-deity-essence, then belief can SHAPE that essence such that the person becomes a god (or at least god-like). In the same way that using an empty spray bottle can't make something wet or even moist, no matter how many times you press the spray-thingy, but IF the bottle is filled with a liquid THEN you can get water on things via spraying.
Yeah, I think Cayden's flask is like Thor's hammer. The item may be of the finest quality, but it's the deity's belief (and the fact that it's a deity believing in it) in the item that gives it power more than the make of the item.
It will be Urgathoa.This is probably my most desired outcome, even if I'd bet on it being Nethys or Zon-Kuthon.
The most prominent undead in the setting are wizards or Arazni and the only place her faith is truly important is Geb. Her personal story is pretty cool, but she just doesn't seem to do anything that any other evil god couldn't do.
We don't have another deity for not-so-nice undead, necromancers, or hunger/gluttony in the Core 20, and she's the divine patron of the bad guy who ended Pathfinder 1e. I think Urgathoa's here to stay - Arazni needs someone to beef with!
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We don't have another deity for not-so-nice undead, necromancers, or hunger/gluttony in the Core 20, and she's the divine patron of the bad guy who ended Pathfinder 1e. I think Urgathoa's here to stay - Arazni needs someone to beef with!
I'm just not sure how much "villains" need to be served by the core 20 deities. Like if Norgober bought the farm, we wouldn't be saying "there's not a deity for poisoners or flensing-happy murder clowns in the core 20". If anything, things that aren't particularly socially acceptable can be associated with niche dieties.
I'm pretty sure Arazni can beef with anybody, but Iomedae seems like an obvious frenemy. I think Arazni's hatred of Urgathoa is probably too nuclear for them to coexist in any sense.
We don't have another deity for not-so-nice undead, necromancers, or hunger/gluttony in the Core 20, and she's the divine patron of the bad guy who ended Pathfinder 1e. I think Urgathoa's here to stay - Arazni needs someone to beef with!It will be Urgathoa.This is probably my most desired outcome, even if I'd bet on it being Nethys or Zon-Kuthon.
The most prominent undead in the setting are wizards or Arazni and the only place her faith is truly important is Geb. Her personal story is pretty cool, but she just doesn't seem to do anything that any other evil god couldn't do.
For no particular reason, I agree. It can't be Urgathoa.
We don't have another deity for not-so-nice undead, necromancers, or hunger/gluttony in the Core 20, and she's the divine patron of the bad guy who ended Pathfinder 1e. I think Urgathoa's here to stay - Arazni needs someone to beef with!I'm just not sure how much "villains" need to be served by the core 20 deities. Like if Norgober bought the farm, we wouldn't be saying "there's not a deity for poisoners or flensing-happy murder clowns in the core 20". If anything, things that aren't particularly socially acceptable can be associated with niche dieties.
I'm pretty sure Arazni can beef with anybody, but Iomedae seems like an obvious frenemy. I think Arazni's hatred of Urgathoa is probably too nuclear for them to coexist in any sense.
The Core 20 is more than just fodder for divine heroes, it's also the most obvious palette GMs have to draw from for bad guys. I'd be pretty distraught without a patron for thieves and poisoners in the main pantheon - and that's before thinking of all the poor Alchemists, Investigators, and Rogues who need a god, too!
I am very inclined to think it won’t be a formerly “Evil” god, because those are the gods that typically make it easier to tell PC driven adventures involving conflict with their worshipers.
The god that dies is not doing so in a way that will make Golarion safer. Yes, their death could be inspired by something even more dangerous, but it is happening in a godswar, and the diety stepping in to the major 20 is not a god that I see a lot of APs being written about trying to thwart. I think she will be critical for telling the story of ending Tar Baphon, but so will Urgathoa really. The mythic stuff moves the setting closer to that possibility, but that doesn’t feel like a globe spanning godwar story line to me.
Sarenrae still feels like goddess whose death would most shake up the setting on a global level, especially moving forward into the places I think the setting is soon headed (the golden Road and Cameron especially). The only complication I see against it being Sarenrae is how to handle the changing of the cleric Iconic if her god dies.
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Urgathoa being here allow a new GM that just picked up the core books to have a deity at the ready for a wild array of different villains, amongst them some very, very popular villainous archetype, so I don't think she's leaving. I mean, she's the one deity of the core 20 that you'll use if you want to make :
- An evil aristocratic hedonist cult.
- Any flavor of undead cult (may mix with the hedonist if you use vampires or ghoul).
- Any flavor of zombie plague.
- any flavor of evil cult using plagues as a weapon at all actually.
Bonus point, she can be a "patron" or a "benefactor" of any undead ennemy that aren't particularly religious but still receive nice gift from the queen of undeath.
For the same reason, I don't see Rovagug being killed, being the sole member of the core 20 that can be a patron of the ever popular "doomsday cult". And while Norgorber would be nothing special if he was only father skinsaw (as a basic murder cult like that could be made using most other evil gods from the core 20), his area of interest as being the god of "common" criminal, like thieves, smuggler and spies make him far too important to get rid of. Not only is it a usefull tool for GM to reveal something about a NPC, it's also the one evil god most likely to be used by PC, as it fit perfectly with the ever popular "token evil rogue that still work well in a group" PC archetype.
As far as evil gods go, I think only Zon Kuthon is really at a risk in this event, as he seems quite niche both for PC and GM uses. His domains and aestetic are cool, but I don't see them as so popular that they'd need to be a part of the core 20, they would work just as well if they only belonged to more background/lesser deities.
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Ya know, I think problem with Erastil or Torag dying is that besides it being example of paizo being biased towards lawful deities, it would come across as "eh, let's get rid of someone who was kinda problematic in past" kind of boring option. Plus both of them are deities with theme around traditions, so that opens another can of worms.
Abadar being killed off would be annoying for similar reasons, but also for additional problem of "but we do kinda need non evil antagonist god who can be ally sometimes"
Would probably help having a "Core = important to the setting" and a "Core = useful to adventurers".
would be nice if the setting explained why Abadar has a monopoly on banking system.
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Would probably help having a "Core = important to the setting" and a "Core = useful to adventurers".
would be nice if the setting explained why Abadar has a monopoly on banking system.
Because people trust his clergy with their money far more than any other organization.
You know : "Anathema engage in banditry or piracy, steal, undermine a law-abiding court"
would be nice if the setting explained why Abadar has a monopoly on banking system.
I think it's because Abadar has gravitas because he was instrumental to the whole "caging Rovagug" project, so people are inclined to respect him for that. And being lawful (as in you're going to follow the rules that were established) and neutral (as in you're not trying to screw people over, but you're also running the business for the sake of the business not the greater good) makes him uniquely positioned for "banking, as is understood in a modern context."
Like an evil banking god would just be predatory, and a good banking god wouldn't be as profitable, so we need to split the difference.
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would be nice if the setting explained why Abadar has a monopoly on banking system.
Edicts: bring civilization to the frontiers, earn wealth through hard work and trade, follow the rule of law
Anathema: engage in banditry or piracy, steal, undermine a law-abiding courtMinor Curse: Any time you steal, illegally harm or kill another creature, or undermine a law-abiding officer or court, a symbol or word describing your crime appears on a visible spot on your skin. This symbol cannot be removed or hidden with makeup (though it can be covered with clothing) and it doesn’t vanish until you make legal restitution for the crime, such as by serving your sentence.
Moderate Curse: Abadar curses all your enterprises, leading to financial disaster as all your ventures always seem to fail. The result of your check to Earn Income is always one degree of success worse than the one you rolled.
Major Curse: You become honest to a fault. You constantly suffer the critical failure effect of zone of truth. Additionally, you are always offered the worst possible option in a bargain.
His clergy are forbidden from breaking the law, will be punished if they earn their generally-fair deity's ire, and have a centuries-long proven track record. Also - and perhaps most importantly - they operate internationally.
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would be nice if the setting explained why Abadar has a monopoly on banking system.His clergy are forbidden from breaking the law, will be punished if they earn their generally-fair deity's ire, and have a centuries-long proven track record. Also - and perhaps most importantly - they operate internationally.Edicts: bring civilization to the frontiers, earn wealth through hard work and trade, follow the rule of law
Anathema: engage in banditry or piracy, steal, undermine a law-abiding courtMinor Curse: Any time you steal, illegally harm or kill another creature, or undermine a law-abiding officer or court, a symbol or word describing your crime appears on a visible spot on your skin. This symbol cannot be removed or hidden with makeup (though it can be covered with clothing) and it doesn’t vanish until you make legal restitution for the crime, such as by serving your sentence.
Moderate Curse: Abadar curses all your enterprises, leading to financial disaster as all your ventures always seem to fail. The result of your check to Earn Income is always one degree of success worse than the one you rolled.
Major Curse: You become honest to a fault. You constantly suffer the critical failure effect of zone of truth. Additionally, you are always offered the worst possible option in a bargain.
And they are beholden to no one except Abadar himself.
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And they are beholden to no one except Abadar himself.would be nice if the setting explained why Abadar has a monopoly on banking system.His clergy are forbidden from breaking the law, will be punished if they earn their generally-fair deity's ire, and have a centuries-long proven track record. Also - and perhaps most importantly - they operate internationally.Edicts: bring civilization to the frontiers, earn wealth through hard work and trade, follow the rule of law
Anathema: engage in banditry or piracy, steal, undermine a law-abiding courtMinor Curse: Any time you steal, illegally harm or kill another creature, or undermine a law-abiding officer or court, a symbol or word describing your crime appears on a visible spot on your skin. This symbol cannot be removed or hidden with makeup (though it can be covered with clothing) and it doesn’t vanish until you make legal restitution for the crime, such as by serving your sentence.
Moderate Curse: Abadar curses all your enterprises, leading to financial disaster as all your ventures always seem to fail. The result of your check to Earn Income is always one degree of success worse than the one you rolled.
Major Curse: You become honest to a fault. You constantly suffer the critical failure effect of zone of truth. Additionally, you are always offered the worst possible option in a bargain.
Did you miss the bold parts that point out that it's literally against their faith to not be beholden to the law? It's not "undermine Abadar" or "follow Abadar's law".
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I sometimes think it's less useful (or at least less interesting) to think of Abadar as the god of trade, and more to think of him as The Spirit Of The Law. It's possible to break or ignore a law while still obeying the spirit of it, it just requires a bit of a legalist argument to make work, and that's Abadar. To an Abadaran, all laws are Abadars laws, but especially the good ones, and following the (good) laws of the land IS to follow Abadar's will. He provides a necessary counterpoint to Asmodeus's version of The Spirit Of The Law, where the goal is to find as many loopholes for personal gain as possible. Abadar should be the kind of god who would approve of the Lincoln Memorial, or making US political buildings and courthouses look like Roman temples, but also the god of fair interest, lenient sentences, general amnesties, etc. A little boring if you want to play a swashbuckling tomb-raiding adventurer cleric, but good for the setting to have.
If they're not going to do anything with Asmodeus, I strongly suspect Abadar's safe, if only because nobody's all that attached to him, and because losing him doesn't really dramatically change the world.
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There are good critiques to be made of Abadar and his clergy - just ask the Vidric people what they think of the Sargavan Abadarans who once walked among them - but he's generally Pretty Alright.
For all my many complaints about how Owlcat Games presents Pathfinder lore at times, one of my favorite things they've done involves a devout Abadaran early in WotR. You do a quest for this man, and upon its completion, do-gooders have an option to decline payment... which he vehemently refuses to even consider, as he sees fair pay for honest work to genuinely sacrosanct. *That's* a view of Abadar's faithful I imagine much of the Inner Sea gets to interact with.
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Abadar being gone would be fun tho, because I see his existence as insurance that in the PF world international laws and banking system are done from a neutral standpoint. If it wasn't for him, I don't think that there would be one internationnal banking system, but multiple parallel ones.
Him being gone mean that there is suddently no more major deity that can preserve neutrality and fairness in the dealings and transctions between the holy/unholy sides, and it would probably be the quickest way for a major war of gods to occur. The gods that care about the economy, the laws and civilisation in general from both sides of the cosmic conflict will try to take his place. Torag, Asmodeus and all the rest won't let the other side get such important place, and so no matter how he die, even if it's of "natural causes" and he is not killed by someone else, war is certain to happen.
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Did you miss the bold parts that point out that it's literally against their faith to not be beholden to the law? It's not "undermine Abadar" or "follow Abadar's law".And they are beholden to no one except Abadar himself.would be nice if the setting explained why Abadar has a monopoly on banking system.His clergy are forbidden from breaking the law, will be punished if they earn their generally-fair deity's ire, and have a centuries-long proven track record. Also - and perhaps most importantly - they operate internationally.Edicts: bring civilization to the frontiers, earn wealth through hard work and trade, follow the rule of law
Anathema: engage in banditry or piracy, steal, undermine a law-abiding courtMinor Curse: Any time you steal, illegally harm or kill another creature, or undermine a law-abiding officer or court, a symbol or word describing your crime appears on a visible spot on your skin. This symbol cannot be removed or hidden with makeup (though it can be covered with clothing) and it doesn’t vanish until you make legal restitution for the crime, such as by serving your sentence.
Moderate Curse: Abadar curses all your enterprises, leading to financial disaster as all your ventures always seem to fail. The result of your check to Earn Income is always one degree of success worse than the one you rolled.
Major Curse: You become honest to a fault. You constantly suffer the critical failure effect of zone of truth. Additionally, you are always offered the worst possible option in a bargain.
True, but law is not a person.
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Abadar being gone would be fun tho, because I see his existence as insurance that in the PF world international laws and banking system are done from a neutral standpoint. If it wasn't for him, I don't think that there would be one internationnal banking system, but multiple parallel ones.
Him being gone mean that there is suddently no more major deity that can preserve neutrality and fairness in the dealings and transctions between the holy/unholy sides, and it would probably be the quickest way for a major war of gods to occur. The gods that care about the economy, the laws and civilisation in general from both sides of the cosmic conflict will try to take his place. Torag, Asmodeus and all the rest won't let the other side get such important place, and so no matter how he die, even if it's of "natural causes" and he is not killed by someone else, war is certain to happen.
Do you want haggling rules? Because this is how you get haggling rules. :P
I think one of the reasons that Abadar isn't going to be the one we lose is that it's not exactly a secret that James Jacobs already did that in his home campaign that became Golarion. It would be kind of the least surprising result because it's already been done.
Urgathoa (Un)lives! Interesting that her death causes a cosmic undeath apocalypse, but I for one am glad my favourite Undead Goddess is going to be sticking around.
I am still in the Sarenrae camp, but Norgerberg becomes an interesting possibility if all these “false prophecies” are “secrets” that he has somehow been keeping to use as weapons against different deities faithful.
There are good critiques to be made of Abadar and his clergy - just ask the Vidric people what they think of the Sargavan Abadarans who once walked among them - but he's generally Pretty Alright.
For all my many complaints about how Owlcat Games presents Pathfinder lore at times, one of my favorite things they've done involves a devout Abadaran early in WotR. You do a quest for this man, and upon its completion, do-gooders have an option to decline payment... which he vehemently refuses to even consider, as he sees fair pay for honest work to genuinely sacrosanct. *That's* a view of Abadar's faithful I imagine much of the Inner Sea gets to interact with.
Kinda funny considering Abadaran are usually depicted as caring more about their bottom line than people wellbeing, their priorities often being in alphabetical order.
1) Banks2) Cities
3) Civilisations
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There are good critiques to be made of Abadar and his clergy - just ask the Vidric people what they think of the Sargavan Abadarans who once walked among them - but he's generally Pretty Alright.
For all my many complaints about how Owlcat Games presents Pathfinder lore at times, one of my favorite things they've done involves a devout Abadaran early in WotR. You do a quest for this man, and upon its completion, do-gooders have an option to decline payment... which he vehemently refuses to even consider, as he sees fair pay for honest work to genuinely sacrosanct. *That's* a view of Abadar's faithful I imagine much of the Inner Sea gets to interact with.
Kinda funny considering Abadaran are usually depicted as caring more about their bottom line than people wellbeing, their priorities often being in alphabetical order.
1) Banks
2) Cities
3) Civilisations
I guess it depends a lot on how people see RL bankers.
Abadar has both evil worshippers and good worshippers. I guess they do not share the exact same values and priorities. But they all respect Abadar's creed.
Some points as to why I doubt it'll be Zon-Kuthon (who I see a bunch) or Gozreh: 1) Dou-Bral becoming ZK damaged the Star Towers, the pins of darkness that keep Rovagug pinned in place within his prison. If ZK dies, I imagine those pins will fully crumble, and that would cause a whole slew of issues with Rovagug thrashing about. Such a thing will be cataclysmic sure but it won't be a great divine war, all but a few gods would want to see Rovagug loose.
2) No one would be too bothered, besides Shelyn but then it feels like an "edgy" move to use a god's death to send her into a depressive/emo path like many are suggesting.
3) Meta reason for Goz, we're talking about a major event with Paizo's first novel in years, a number of adventures and AP volumes spinning off from it, and the book that introduces Mythic Rules to 2e. Banking that major narrative draw being Gozreh dying, of all gods, would be weird imo. He's not especially popular, removing him "because he's redundant" would also mean removing her and making people get into her death and the result would be a hard sell.