After listening to the amazing Paizo keynote for GenCon2023, it has been confirmed that we are going to see the death of one of our core deities in real time. So, of course, I cannot help but speculate!
The existence of core deities in Starfinder gives them what I would consider to be plot armor, but given the announcement of Starfinder 2e coming in 2025, it is entirely possible that Paizo could pull a retcon.
The current core 20 that are shared in both games are:
-Sarenrae
-Iomedae
-Desna
-Abadar
-Pharasma
-Zon-Kuthon
-Cayden Cailean
-Calistria
-Asmodeus
-Lamashtu
Which is a lot but not all. We also know that Torag is gone, but that implies that he left voluntarily, rather than being killed. Also Rovagug is MIA since Golarion, its prison, has disappeared. So who are left?
-Erastil
-Shelyn
-Iori
-Gozreh
-Nethys
-Gorum
-Norgorber
-Urgathoa
To me, Shelyn has a compelling arc. We know that she is close to purifying the glaive in the Lost Omens setting, and in the Starfinder universe she is "travelling" but that could be easily retconned out. How tragic would it be to come so close to redeeming her beloved brother only to be struck down in the end?
I would personally love to see an arch where Norgorber is exposed and dismantled. Perhaps his 4 forms are exposed 1 by 1, until there is nothing left of him but an empty black cloak.
Nethys would be fascinating, and if paired with a Golden Road themed adventure would be amazing. For millenia, Nethys has balanced his impulses for creation and destruction, what if both forces are unleashed and end up with his non-existence?
Urgathoa, as the queen of undeath, who won her power through sheer force of will and refusal to bend, what an end to such a villain to be forced to embrace oblivion in the end?
Who is your pick? What arch do you want to see play out at your table?
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I do think that "Arazni getting revenge on every Necromancer in her past by killing Urgathoa" has some poetry to it. After all, Urgathoa is the guardian of Tar-Baphon's soul cage...
Urgathoa is also the goddess of disease too, and I think we'd all like fewer plagues in our stories now.
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Even though it would violate the continuity of Starfinder, my vote would be for Zon-Kuthon to go and for Shelyn to have redeemed him by returning him to Dol-Boral. That would be an awesome story line.
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I think that we could see Calistria go and Nocticula taking over her role in the core pantheon. Calistria has enough planar connections for it to be a big deal, and I think the setting would suffer much from losing her.
Also losing Erastil could be really interesting, and I'm also looking at Nethys, but Calistria is my first bet.
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I don't think we can assume that the Starfinder deities are safe. I think it has been stated that Pathfinder and Starfinder could be separate timelines, to make the canon of one game not dependent on another.
From a Remaster perspective:
I could see Asmodeus, who is also used in DnD, even if he is a mythological character. It would also allow a shake-up to Hell, which might allow them to take that plane farther from DnD interpretations. Counterpoint would be that would be a pretty big chance to the game, since it would heavily impact Cheliax.
From a "kinder and gentler" Pathfinder approach, Torag (whose history kind of links him with genocide of what is a soon to be core ancestry) or Erastil (who original conception painted him as being overly patriarchal), Cayden Cailean (do they want one of the core 20 to be a drunk?). On the evil side of things, Lamashtu might be a bit too extreme and would be the most likely one I think to go down.
Counterpoint that any sort of Torag-related AP would have to feature dwarves heavily, and we are already getting a dwarf-heavy AP. Cayden Cailean seems pretty popular.
I mean, personally I think Asmodeus is most likely. Especially since they mentioned these events being a war of cosmic-scope, and the Ruler of Hell certainly fits that.
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Shelyn could be a compelling choice, considering what's been hinted at over in Starfinder that Shelyn's "travels" will conclude with her and Zon-Kuthon merging into Zon-Shelyn, a presumably nonbinary deity whose portfolio will include drawing artistic inspiration from suffering. Given Zon-Kuthon was one of Starfinder's big 20, I could see his last shred of his former self shining through to save his sister from a death worse than fate.
I'm more worried about Sarenrae being the one who takes the hit, given that "preview" we get at the end of Stolen Fate where the PC's "watch the Sun die." Even though Sarenrae IS present in current Starfinder, that's not a guarantee of her survival, since apparently Starfinder's canon is different from Pathfinder's in some ways (i.e. Nocticula never became The Redeemer Queen in Starfinder). We could be seeing the start of a shift where Starfinder and Pathfinder share a ruleset, but have separate storylines and canons.
I mean, so far saying Starfinder and Pathfinder shared a rule set is being very very generous. Maybe Starfinder 2nd edition will share very similar rules to Pathfinder 2nd edition (assuming we ever get a SF2) but I don't think it something you can say right now. What we could say at least early in Starfinder's existence was that it was a continuation of the lore. But it seems like that could change. And honestly I think it's probably better to go ahead and bite the bullet, and just say "while these shared some universal lore" these are separate settings and we're not going to constrain either by the events happening in the other.
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I mean, so far saying Starfinder and Pathfinder shared a rule set is being very very generous. Maybe Starfinder 2nd edition will share very similar rules to Pathfinder 2nd edition (assuming we ever get a SF2) but I don't think it something you can say right now. What we could say at least early in Starfinder's existence was that it was a continuation of the lore. But it seems like that could change. And honestly I think it's probably better to go ahead and bite the bullet, and just say "while these shared some universal lore" these are separate settings and we're not going to constrain either by the events happening in the other.
We ARE getting a SF2, it was just announced today and will start playtesting next summer, and it WILL be compatible with the Remastered 2e.
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Pay attention to the Starfinder 2 playtest for a preview of ideas they have for Pathfinder 3.
I mean, so far saying Starfinder and Pathfinder shared a rule set is being very very generous.
Claxon, my friend, join the future with us!
https://paizo.com/starfinderplaytest
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Given Zon-Kuthon was one of Starfinder's big 20, I could see his last shred of his former self shining through to save his sister from a death worse than fate.
Oh wow, yeah that story should definitely be told within Starfinder, and it would be beautiful and heartbreaking to see!
I'm more worried about Sarenrae being the one who takes the hit, given that "preview" we get at the end of Stolen Fate where the PC's "watch the Sun die."
I know, that would be devastating. And honestly, if that was the decision, I don't know if I could support it. Any story told the right way can be believed, but stomached is a whole other matter.
Irori and Gorum are both generic and forgettable enough to easily be replaced with a more interesting Deity, but that also makes getting rid of them not an especially compelling story.
Asmodeus dying would cause absolute chaos, not only in Hell (since while i don't think its vital the ruler of Hell is a capital 'G' God, devils are going to have a specific person eventually at the top of the chain of command), but in Cheliax too. The question is is Paizo ready to do another Cheliax civil war plot so soon again (my bet is no).
My own gut reaction guess: it'll be one of either Sarenrae, Urgathoa, or Desna
Sarenrae: there have been at least two bits in recent adventures I'm aware of that could be interpreted as possible hints her time is number Also with alignment going away its less important to have a single poster-child Good deity like her (there's her associations with redemption and the sun too, but sun gods are a dime a dozen and redemption can be associated with many different other gods - each of whom have interesting different ways of interpreting what exactly that means
Urgathoa: a God of Undeath is setting useful but Golarion is filled with extremely powerful necromancers (quite possibly the most heavily represented 'school' of big setting-level-threat mages). I could see her being put down by an usurper.
Desna: Desna's a weird God who has a crazy-high representation in adventures and setting. Taking her out would thus be a 'Big Deal', while actually causing not that much immediate disruption to a specific part of the world (her clergy is most geo-politically active in what, Nidal? Plus, the Black Butterfly is still flapping in the wings as Desna-lite.
For those that don't follow all the adventure paths, could someone describe the "hints" about Sarenrae biting it that have popped up recently?
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Yeah, also nervous about Saranrae now. It would suck all kinds of behind if my favorite deity of the whole setting would be killed off.
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For those that don't follow all the adventure paths, could someone describe the "hints" about Sarenrae biting it that have popped up recently?
At the end of Stolen Fate the PCs are given a series of visions featuring "other heroes," which the GM is explicitly told to use as a preview or "teaser" for future campaigns. One vision involves an upcoming war, which Paizo has now confirmed is going to be the big, franchise-spanning event where one of the core 20 dies. Another one involves a phoenix with peacock feathers, which combined with the cover of the upcoming GM Core all but telegraphs Xanderghul, the Peacock Spirit and Runelord of Pride, isn't as dead as the Return of the Runelords AP led us to believe. The last of these visions is that the PCs "watch the Sun die."
That could either be a cheeky reference to Dead Suns, the first Starfinder AP, since it's technically in the Universe's "future," but many of us figure it could be a sign that Pathfinder's canon is about to diverge even further from Starfinder's by having Sarenrae die (in Starfinder Nocticula is still considered a Demon Lord and has "pleasure-cults," implying she never became The Redeemer Queen).
Another possible hint is from recent PFS where Mahja Firehair, champion of the Burning Sun tribe of orcs in the Hold of Belkzen and a devout Sarenite, manifesting a Vow-Mark after dying, indicating she has gone to the orc afterlife to kill and replace a god, and while some devs have stated she doesn't have to kill HER god, just A god, orcish tradition has held that generally an orc god has ascended by proving themselves stronger than the god they worshiped. Someone who's actually PLAYED PFS could probably go into more specific detail.
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Abadar going away would be interesting. death of civilization, banks, and all that. gozreh kicking the bucket could have vast implications for the natural world. Would be neat to see irori do something like the capstone from the old monk of the healing hand.
I'll just cross post my thoughts from a different thread
What if we're all looking at this the wrong way? What if it isn't one of the active deities that is getting offed, but rather one that's more, confined shall we say? My guess is one of the future APs will cap-off with the adventurers actually perma-killing Rovagug with backup and empowerment from all deities that don't want to become his meal.
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James Jacobs loves Sarenrae a whole lot. I don’t know that they’d kill his darling like that, though it certainly maps onto the Stolen Fate prophecy well enough.
I expect this to cost us a friendly deity, not kill off a villainous one, even as much as I like the thought of promoting Arazni.
If I'm understanding it right, there are three prophesy scenes at the end of Stolen Fate: dying sun, big war, peacock phoenix.
If what has been said above is right, and the big war is specifically the event where one of the core deities dies, and the dying sun is meant to signal it will be the Dawnflower herself, it seems odd to have 2/3 scenes refer to one story.
Perhaps all three scenes are referring to one story- killing a god and seizing control of her church would certainly a dramatic way to reintroduce the Peacock Spirit...
But personally I think three scenes means three storylines being hinted at- so I think Sarenrae is safe.
I expect this to cost us a friendly deity, not kill off a villainous one, even as much as I like the thought of promoting Arazni.
They did say "at least one" so they could kill off one friendly deity and one villainous deity and call it a wash.
I expect this to cost us a friendly deity, not kill off a villainous one, even as much as I like the thought of promoting Arazni.They did say "at least one" so they could kill off one friendly deity and one villainous deity and call it a wash.
This does seem like more evidence for Zon/Shelyn in some capacity. This'll lead to some interesting stories and shake up enough of the status quo without burning it to the ground. What is interesting... how do we think the deity dies during this all-encompassing war? Are they the inciting incident (Aroden 2.0)? Or do they try to save the day and fail?
(Also- even though I don't think it's likely I am getting excited picturing Xanderghul brining the world to war, destroying the sun and declaring himself the new greatest god...)
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"Celestials, fiends, monitors and deities of no preferred alignment. I have gathered you here because one of you...IS A MURDERER."
If I was going to kill off one of the Core 20, it would be Pharasma. And play a high-level murder-mystery where an angel, a devil, an inevitable and a psychopomp team up to figure out who killed her. Could it have been Urgathoa? She certainly has motive. As does Zyphus, though it being a murder undermines his place as god of accidental death. Could Nhimbaloth have returned to finish the job after her first attack? But, as the fiend is quick to remind, there are celestials who have no love lost for Pharasma - does not Iomedae herself resent the Lady of Graves for the loss of her predecessor? Come to think of it, where was the Echo of Divinity at the time of the murder? Or perhaps one of her own daughters decided they didn't want to wait until the next universe and the death of everyone else to take the throne?
another thing that is will be interesting to see. how will we players be involved?
Design Manager
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another thing that is will be interesting to see. how will we players be involved?
Some number of you will be almost directly responsible for stuff hitting the fan, courtesy of the Narrative team's contributions to this event. Some of you already have been involved in the opening skirmishes of this event and may not have realized it, yet.
another thing that is will be interesting to see. how will we players be involved?Some number of you will be almost directly responsible for stuff hitting the fan, courtesy of the Narrative team's contributions to this event. Some of you already have been involved in the opening skirmishes of this event and may not have realized it, yet.
I've got a theory.
another thing that is will be interesting to see. how will we players be involved?Some number of you will be almost directly responsible for stuff hitting the fan, courtesy of the Narrative team's contributions to this event. Some of you already have been involved in the opening skirmishes of this event and may not have realized it, yet.
Oh my. Would this be in Pathfinder Society or the APs? Both perhaps??
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another thing that is will be interesting to see. how will we players be involved?Some number of you will be almost directly responsible for stuff hitting the fan, courtesy of the Narrative team's contributions to this event. Some of you already have been involved in the opening skirmishes of this event and may not have realized it, yet.
This makes the FOMO I'm feeling from all these announcements even worse! I feel like I'm jumping into the narrative water and mid-air I hear a whistle blow and the lifeguard yells "THE POOL'S CLOSING IN FIVE MINUTES!"
Well! This sounds like a great year to return to pathfinder!
I’ll let you know which AP my fam decides on in celebration for when I finish this project I’ve been forever at.
I want it to be Nethys (and bring back the Egyptian pantheon) but I have a feeling it is Sarenrae, or Asmodius.
Now, my money was on Asmodeus (I think Hell collapsing in to a power struggle and that being mirrored by Cheliax doing desperate stuff as they lose their Hellish backing would be sick), but now? I am convinced it's Sarenrae, especially after that little ease by Michael...
So, I have some very fun news to torture my Sarenrae cleric player in Abomination Vaults with! :)
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I just hope this isn't like Marvel/DC event comics where authors make decisions to kill off minor characters willy nilly thinking "nobody cares if they die" and using them as canon fodder
I do kinda refuse to believe that if Sarenrae dies that its for permanent because I would consider it really mean decision to kill Sarenrae permanently and replace Kyra's deity. She is kinda too iconic to die for good and killing her off permanently wouldn't be shocking in good way
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another thing that is will be interesting to see. how will we players be involved?Some number of you will be almost directly responsible for stuff hitting the fan, courtesy of the Narrative team's contributions to this event. Some of you already have been involved in the opening skirmishes of this event and may not have realized it, yet.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN AAAAA
(probably not me though if this is referring to live events at cons xD)
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Design Manager
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I just hope this isn't like Marvel/DC event comics where authors make decisions to kill off minor characters willy nilly thinking "nobody cares if they die" and using them as canon fodder
We've been thinking about this for literal years and have gone through numerous iterations on the story, setting impacts, etc.
Ultimately, someone will be upset about their favorite deity dying, because every one of the core 20 is someone's favorite, and emotional impact requires emotional investment. And we have no intention of doing a "Civil War" or "Spellplague" that makes the setting we all love unrecognizable. But we do want to do big things, tell big stories, and let the PCs see the world change around them through events that they get to experience and even influence via our rulebooks, adventures, and novels.
And this event will definitely open up the world for new stories, new villains, new heroes, and new conflicts. Which, at the end of the day, are the things we're all here for.
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WHAT DOES THIS MEAN AAAAA
(probably not me though if this is referring to live events at cons xD)
That just upsets me more. Same thing with whatever going on in Bastardhall. It feels like I'm being told "there's parts of the canon you will never be able to access because you don't go to cons like the true fans."
I'm not referring to canon details Paizo has stated they'll never tell like Aroden's death or the cause of the Gap, by the way, I'm referring to lore details that got revealed or decided in singular, non-repeatable events that you'd have to have been there to learn or participate in.
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I hope it is available for the entire community
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I just hope this isn't like Marvel/DC event comics where authors make decisions to kill off minor characters willy nilly thinking "nobody cares if they die" and using them as canon fodder
We've been thinking about this for literal years and have gone through numerous iterations on the story, setting impacts, etc.
Ultimately, someone will be upset about their favorite deity dying, because every one of the core 20 is someone's favorite, and emotional impact requires emotional investment. And we have no intention of doing a "Civil War" or "Spellplague" that makes the setting we all love unrecognizable. But we do want to do big things, tell big stories, and let the PCs see the world change around them through events that they get to experience and even influence via our rulebooks, adventures, and novels.
And this event will definitely open up the world for new stories, new villains, new heroes, and new conflicts. Which, at the end of the day, are the things we're all here for.
I do appreciate statement that devs have put thought into this, but I am still bit wary since thing is that trying to perma kill player options feels like something writers might later be like "eh they are gods, they come back from death" :'D RPG companies might not be same as comic company, but there is reason why Mythra from D&D has died like three times. Like unless send off is really great, I will still find it hard to believe it will stick depending on who dies
Sidenote, I have another idea on this: could this be related to Nex and his hobby we learned about in Worldscape? If yes, that might mean bad things for Count Ranalc unless he gets freed :D
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Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn merging together could have some fun comedy/tragedy themes, like theater masks.
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WHAT DOES THIS MEAN AAAAA
(probably not me though if this is referring to live events at cons xD)
That just upsets me more. Same thing with whatever going on in Bastardhall. It feels like I'm being told "there's parts of the canon you will never be able to access because you don't go to cons like the true fans."
I'm not referring to canon details Paizo has stated they'll never tell like Aroden's death or the cause of the Gap, by the way, I'm referring to lore details that got revealed or decided in singular, non-repeatable events that you'd have to have been there to learn or participate in.
You can buy every single PFS scenario and read it! It’s what I do whenever they visit Arcadia.
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I wonder if Nex is going to try to usurp Nethys. You wouldn't need to change the acronym on the AoN at least.
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And we have no intention of doing a "Civil War" or "Spellplague" that makes the setting we all love unrecognizable.
Oooh, shots fired! :D
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I wonder if Nex is going to try to usurp Nethys. You wouldn't need to change the acronym on the AoN at least.
Can you imagine how pissed Geb would be if that turned out to be the case?!
"Did our millenia-long rivalry mean NOTHING to you?! I waited so long for you, Nex! I THOUGHT WHAT WE HAD WAS SPECIAL!!!"
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I just hope this isn't like Marvel/DC event comics where authors make decisions to kill off minor characters willy nilly thinking "nobody cares if they die" and using them as canon fodder
I do kinda refuse to believe that if Sarenrae dies that its for permanent because I would consider it really mean decision to kill Sarenrae permanently and replace Kyra's deity. She is kinda too iconic to die for good and killing her off permanently wouldn't be shocking in good way
They have mentioned that one of the new classes we will be hearing about is "rare". Maybe that class is themed around followers of dead gods?
I and at least one of my players will be very sad if it is Sarenrae... but on the other hand I think it could be fun is Sarenrae is just one of the deities who die but it doesn't stick (given how hard it is to kill a god permanently).
Whoever it is, though, it'll be tough. I've grown attached to at least half of the core 20, and the problem is none of the deities I'm not somewhat fond of would make a particularly dramatic choice for death. Like I can't see a world-shaking plotline about what happens when Abadar dies for real.
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Ultimately, someone will be upset about their favorite deity dying, because every one of the core 20 is someone's favorite,
I think out of tens of thousands of pathfinder players it's quite possible that as many as three of them are no one's favorite.
I feel Nethyis is ok to ditch. Having him blow himself up due to crazy spell casting would be in character and I never really found him interesting
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I wonder if Nex is going to try to usurp Nethys. You wouldn't need to change the acronym on the AoN at least.Can you imagine how pissed Geb would be if that turned out to be the case?!
"Did our millenia-long rivalry mean NOTHING to you?! I waited so long for you, Nex! I THOUGHT WHAT WE HAD WAS SPECIAL!!!"
Well someone is either Yandere/Tsundere for their sempai