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But will this cause a Peanut Butter & Chocolate problem?
Is it better to bash Science Fiction & Fantasy together or keep the two genres separated?
So why not keep the two systems separate but compatible? Then those who want to play one and not the other can do so. And those who want to have crossover can also do so.
And isn't that what Michael Sayre has said several times in this thread that they are doing?
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The thing is... Pathfinder and Starfinder are two different genres, and that actually matters.
Questions like "how normal is it for people to be able to fly", "how normal is it to have a vehicle", "Do people who want to kill each other tend to do it up close or shoot each other from far away" and so forth are baked into the genre, and they lead to some very different design decisions. They have a real effect on what will and will not be disruptive to an adventure and thus on what will or will not be easily accessible. That's only the simplest and most obvious stuff.
Even where Pathfinder *does* have laser guns and robots, they are laser guns and robots that are designed to fit into the swords and sorcery genre. Those same laser guns and robots, if written for Starfinder natively, would be written differently.
The Starfinder people are concerned about having the answers to some of their core genre questions get overwritten by PF2's answers to the core genre questions... and that's a serious and reasonable concern. Now, I'm pretty sure that Paizo is aware of this, and making sure that that doesn't happen, but a big part of making that not happen is to have them be actually legitimately separate games.
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I think getting the Envoy class into PF2 might actually be the most exciting part of all this.
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But will this cause a Peanut Butter & Chocolate problem?
Is it better to bash Science Fiction & Fantasy together or keep the two genres separated?
Starfinder has always been a science fantasy game, though, not hard science fiction.
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I think getting the Envoy class into PF2 might actually be the most exciting part of all this.
Yeah that and the Solarion feel like they will fit right into a fantasy setting.
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The thing is... Pathfinder and Starfinder are two different genres, and that actually matters.
Questions like "how normal is it for people to be able to fly", "how normal is it to have a vehicle", "Do people who want to kill each other tend to do it up close or shoot each other from far away" and so forth are baked into the genre, and they lead to some very different design decisions. They have a real effect on what will and will not be disruptive to an adventure and thus on what will or will not be easily accessible. That's only the simplest and most obvious stuff.
Even where Pathfinder *does* have laser guns and robots, they are laser guns and robots that are designed to fit into the swords and sorcery genre. Those same laser guns and robots, if written for Starfinder natively, would be written differently.
The Starfinder people are concerned about having the answers to some of their core genre questions get overwritten by PF2's answers to the core genre questions... and that's a serious and reasonable concern. Now, I'm pretty sure that Paizo is aware of this, and making sure that that doesn't happen, but a big part of making that not happen is to have them be actually legitimately separate games.
Roll for Damage (I think that is the name) did a youtube interview with the devs about Starfinder 2E where they addressed these concerns. The plan is to basically just to treat the games as different genres with there own assumptions, with GM's having to take those accounts when allowing material to cross over.
The example discussed was flight. Flight is a huge issue in PF, where it is assumed many characters are melee and and flight can be overpowered. However the assumption is that everyone is using ranged weapons in Starfinder, so flight is less an issue. So flying ancestries will just be given full flight at level 1, versus the graded approach Pathfinder usually does.
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A few things I can't wait to port from SF2 to PF2:
Envoy
Solarian
Big eff-off Guns
Laser Rifles
Vehicle Rules
Space Travel Rules
A few things I can't wait to port from PF2 to SF2:
Wizards
Champions
Every Single Melee Weapon
Dwarf Content
Dragon Ancestry
The thing is... Pathfinder and Starfinder are two different genres, and that actually matters.
Questions like "how normal is it for people to be able to fly", "how normal is it to have a vehicle", "Do people who want to kill each other tend to do it up close or shoot each other from far away" and so forth are baked into the genre, and they lead to some very different design decisions. They have a real effect on what will and will not be disruptive to an adventure and thus on what will or will not be easily accessible. That's only the simplest and most obvious stuff.
Even where Pathfinder *does* have laser guns and robots, they are laser guns and robots that are designed to fit into the swords and sorcery genre. Those same laser guns and robots, if written for Starfinder natively, would be written differently.
The Starfinder people are concerned about having the answers to some of their core genre questions get overwritten by PF2's answers to the core genre questions... and that's a serious and reasonable concern. Now, I'm pretty sure that Paizo is aware of this, and making sure that that doesn't happen, but a big part of making that not happen is to have them be actually legitimately separate games.
Roll for Damage (I think that is the name) did a youtube interview with the devs about Starfinder 2E where they addressed these concerns. The plan is to basically just to treat the games as different genres with there own assumptions, with GM's having to take those accounts when allowing material to cross over.
The example discussed was flight. Flight is a huge issue in PF, where it is assumed many characters are melee and and flight can be overpowered. However the assumption is that everyone is using ranged weapons in Starfinder, so flight is less an issue. So flying ancestries will just be given full flight at level 1, versus the graded approach Pathfinder usually does.
The focus on ranged combat was also confirmed to stay.
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The focus on ranged combat was also confirmed to stay.
Yup. The playtest document reinforces that idea too.
Should cause quite a few startled looks from the enemies when they are expecting to get into a firefight with Envoy and Soldier characters and a Time Traveler Barbarian pulls out a Doshko of some variety and charges down the corridor at them.
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The Starfinder people are concerned about having the answers to some of their core genre questions get overwritten by PF2's answers to the core genre questions... and that's a serious and reasonable concern.
Not sure how big of a deal that actually is, considering SF largely solves most of these problems via gear. Nothing about the soldier using PF2 style proficiency prevents you from selling jetpacks.
Like, you can see that with Starfinder as it exists right now. Individual classes tend to not have a lot of answers to these questions, but the economy and surrounding circumstances solve it (and even more similarly, it's not that difficult to cross adapt SF and PF1e content).
The focus on ranged combat was also confirmed to stay.
I wonder how that will look in practice. There's a pretty vocal chunk of the Starfinder community that will tell you that "rangefinder" is an outright myth because of how powerful melee focused builds can be.
SF2 being a system that prioritizes ranged combat could end up being a significant departure from SF1 depending on how that manifests.
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From what Paizo has said, the core rules will be completely compatible, but the meta does not have to be, like flying at first level. It would be interesting to see a copy of the core rule book that is only the core rules have to be 100% compatible between the 2 games.
My big concern is if character creation will be the same in both games now. There's no equivalent to Starfinder themes in Pathfinder 2e. The closest thing would be getting a free archetype at first level. That might be fine if it's usable in organized play as well.
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A theme is like a background + skillfeats/archetypes. Its a seperate track from class to give you some minor thematic abilities which i think the feat systems take care of the higher level abilities.
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A theme is like a background + skillfeats/archetypes. Its a seperate track from class to give you some minor thematic abilities which i think the feat systems take care of the higher level abilities.
My mistake, I've made more PF2e characters recently than Starfinder characters. I was thinking Starfinder had backgrounds and themes, (that would be nice.)
Breaking up the themes into individual feats works, and that's even more flexible than the original themes, this is look good! Some might be better as archetypes that works too.
Having the 2 games compatible will help prevent mixing up rules for those of us that already play both.
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But will this cause a Peanut Butter & Chocolate problem?
Is it better to bash Science Fiction & Fantasy together or keep the two genres separated?
Lets be absolutely clear, they're both fantasy games. One is just medieval fantasy
And seems like electric arc is still alive somehow! (as of field test #1)
Primal Innate Spells DC 16, attack +7; 1st delete*, thunderstrike**;
Cantrips (1st) electric arc, figment**, recharge weapon*
*New Spells that we’re designing and hope to show in future field
tests.
**Spells set to appear in Pathfinder Player Core.
Electric arc was a Pathfinder original, so no one ever thought it would disappear completely. But people are expecting a potential need to it.
Lets be absolutely clear, they're both fantasy games. One is just medieval fantasyBut will this cause a Peanut Butter & Chocolate problem?
Is it better to bash Science Fiction & Fantasy together or keep the two genres separated?
And, some of us want to keep it that way.
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And, some of us want to keep it that way.Lets be absolutely clear, they're both fantasy games. One is just medieval fantasyBut will this cause a Peanut Butter & Chocolate problem?
Is it better to bash Science Fiction & Fantasy together or keep the two genres separated?
Pathfinder 1e had intergalactic spaceships, an android goddess, more than one trip to Earth, extraplanetary Azlanti colonies (a prison on the moon!), tons of aliens (including Elves!), psychics, time travel, firearms, robots, and a dinosaur-filled Hollow Earth. Golarion has never just been medieval fantasy.
You can play a Kasatha whose sorcery comes from the nanomachines in their blood in PF1, while PF2 would allow a telepathic, time-traveling construct with currently-published options.
Electric arc was a Pathfinder original, so no one ever thought it would disappear completely. But people are expecting a potential need to it.And seems like electric arc is still alive somehow! (as of field test #1)
Primal Innate Spells DC 16, attack +7; 1st delete*, thunderstrike**;
Cantrips (1st) electric arc, figment**, recharge weapon*
*New Spells that we’re designing and hope to show in future field
tests.
**Spells set to appear in Pathfinder Player Core.
EA won't disappear it probably will just change to 2d4 like Timber a new AoE basic save cantrip what means to me that EA and Scatter Scree will survive from remaster.
EA won't disappear it probably will just change to 2d4 like Timber a new AoE basic save cantrip what means to me that EA and Scatter Scree will survive from remaster.
I am expecting that Electric Arc will end up looking a lot like Slashing Gust.
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And, some of us want to keep it that way.Lets be absolutely clear, they're both fantasy games. One is just medieval fantasyBut will this cause a Peanut Butter & Chocolate problem?
Is it better to bash Science Fiction & Fantasy together or keep the two genres separated?
Pathfinder 1e had intergalactic spaceships, an android goddess, more than one trip to Earth, extraplanetary Azlanti colonies (a prison on the moon!), tons of aliens (including Elves!), psychics, time travel, firearms, robots, and a dinosaur-filled Hollow Earth. Golarion has never just been medieval fantasy.
You can play a Kasatha whose sorcery comes from the nanomachines in their blood in PF1, while PF2 would allow a telepathic, time-traveling construct with currently-published options.
Pathfinder is also very much a kitchen sink setting where the different themes are cordoned off by geography. So saying "I don't want rayguns and aliens in my pirate story" isn't really that different from "I don't want vikings, ninjas, or pirates in my gothic horror story." Like Poppets are rare because "I'm playing a toy a kid wished alive" doesn't work in every story.
Making the two games compatible makes me hope that the rarity system is fleshed and made stronger so that GMs only have those things in their games that they feel belong there. Like the Solarion *could* work in Pathfinder, I would just feel weird about allowing it because how does anybody on Golarion know about Black Holes anyway?
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Making the two games compatible makes me hope that the rarity system is fleshed and made stronger so that GMs only have those things in their games that they feel belong there. Like the Solarion *could* work in Pathfinder, I would just feel weird about allowing it because how does anybody on Golarion know about Black Holes anyway?
They said that when you port things over from SF into PF, everything tech-y and such will be rare. And I think rare is pretty well established as "if you want your GM to give this to you, you better have a very strong case for it". So it sounds like it'll work out.
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Making the two games compatible makes me hope that the rarity system is fleshed and made stronger so that GMs only have those things in their games that they feel belong there. Like the Solarion *could* work in Pathfinder, I would just feel weird about allowing it because how does anybody on Golarion know about Black Holes anyway?
A Solarion native Patfinder sounds fun, and I think would work just fine. Just need to find new terms to explain the source of their power, like some pseudo-science or false magic to explain it.
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EA won't disappear it probably will just change to 2d4 like Timber a new AoE basic save cantrip what means to me that EA and Scatter Scree will survive from remaster.I am expecting that Electric Arc will end up looking a lot like Slashing Gust.
I hope they don't take the storm out of my Storm's Lash, My feather are getting ruffled just thinking about it. For us Tengu we can get Electric Arc by taking the Storm's Lash feat, so there is some extra cost to having it. I thought the changes coming to the remaster were optional or was that just for the classes?
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I hope they don't take the storm out of my Storm's Lash, My feather are getting ruffled just thinking about it. For us Tengu we can get Electric Arc by taking the Storm's Lash feat, so there is some extra cost to having it. I thought the changes coming to the remaster were optional or was that just for the classes?EA won't disappear it probably will just change to 2d4 like Timber a new AoE basic save cantrip what means to me that EA and Scatter Scree will survive from remaster.I am expecting that Electric Arc will end up looking a lot like Slashing Gust.
Well... PF2 has had republish-errata as a thing almost from the beginning.
Electric Arc is about to get republished.
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I thought the changes coming to the remaster were optional or was that just for the classes?
Well, optional in the same way that if you wanted to and got your GMs permission, you could pull up a copy of the first printing (Pathfinder2e 1.0) and have a Horse companion that gives you its support ability bonus damage to your spell damage rolls while you aren't mounted on the horse.
Most people I have talked to see Electric Arc in its current state as being borderline broken levels of too powerful when compared to any of the other cantrips. Being able to target two creatures within range, no matter their positioning, and do full damage to both of them is just too much of a benefit over what any other cantrip gives.
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Most people I have talked to see Electric Arc in its current state as being borderline broken levels of too powerful when compared to any of the other cantrips.
Kind of burying the lede at the end of the sentence there.
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I thought the changes coming to the remaster were optional or was that just for the classes?Well, optional in the same way that if you wanted to and got your GMs permission, you could pull up a copy of the first printing (Pathfinder2e 1.0) and have a Horse companion that gives you its support ability bonus damage to your spell damage rolls while you aren't mounted on the horse.
Most people I have talked to see Electric Arc in its current state as being borderline broken levels of too powerful when compared to any of the other cantrips. Being able to target two creatures within range, no matter their positioning, and do full damage to both of them is just too much of a benefit over what any other cantrip gives.
It's a great spell, if it's too powerful for a cantrip I'd rather see it changed to 1st level and replaced with a new spell. Or leave it a cantrip and remove the damage modifier from the second target.
I will admit I felt it was too powerful when I rolled max damage and the GM critically failed both target's savings throws. But that's balanced by our GM's habit of rolling nothing but critical hits in the first round of combat.
Kind of burying the lede at the end of the sentence there.
Most people I have talked to see Electric Arc in its current state as being borderline broken levels of too powerful when compared to any of the other cantrips.
English sucks.
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The thing is... Pathfinder and Starfinder are two different genres, and that actually matters.
Questions like "how normal is it for people to be able to fly", "how normal is it to have a vehicle", "Do people who want to kill each other tend to do it up close or shoot each other from far away" and so forth are baked into the genre, and they lead to some very different design decisions. They have a real effect on what will and will not be disruptive to an adventure and thus on what will or will not be easily accessible. That's only the simplest and most obvious stuff.
Even where Pathfinder *does* have laser guns and robots, they are laser guns and robots that are designed to fit into the swords and sorcery genre. Those same laser guns and robots, if written for Starfinder natively, would be written differently.
The Starfinder people are concerned about having the answers to some of their core genre questions get overwritten by PF2's answers to the core genre questions... and that's a serious and reasonable concern. Now, I'm pretty sure that Paizo is aware of this, and making sure that that doesn't happen, but a big part of making that not happen is to have them be actually legitimately separate games.
I think using things such as the 3 actions mechanic will definitely not make Starfinder less of what people enjoy.
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I thought the changes coming to the remaster were optional or was that just for the classes?Well, optional in the same way that if you wanted to and got your GMs permission, you could pull up a copy of the first printing (Pathfinder2e 1.0) and have a Horse companion that gives you its support ability bonus damage to your spell damage rolls while you aren't mounted on the horse.
Most people I have talked to see Electric Arc in its current state as being borderline broken levels of too powerful when compared to any of the other cantrips. Being able to target two creatures within range, no matter their positioning, and do full damage to both of them is just too much of a benefit over what any other cantrip gives.
It's a great spell, if it's too powerful for a cantrip I'd rather see it changed to 1st level and replaced with a new spell. Or leave it a cantrip and remove the damage modifier from the second target.
I will admit I felt it was too powerful when I rolled max damage and the GM critically failed both target's savings throws. But that's balanced by our GM's habit of rolling nothing but critical hits in the first round of combat.
Having EA deal a little less damage than now or having the targets get a bonus to their save (which ends up doing the same) would be enough IMO.
Having EA deal a little less damage than now or having the targets get a bonus to their save (which ends up doing the same) would be enough IMO.
Considering the way that Cantrips in Rage of Elements and the notes from Paizo employees about PF2R cantrips not having ability bonus damage any more (Timber does 2d4 in a line, and Needle Darts does 3d4 to a single target for examples)...
Would you be happy with Electric Arc costing two actions, and dealing either 3d4 to one target or half of 3d4 to both of two targets? That would make it almost like it has a built-in Split Shot effect.
It will probably just become 2d4 basic reflex to one or two creatures so slightly nerfed damagewise in the same way all the d4 cantrips are
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Even where Pathfinder *does* have laser guns and robots, they are laser guns and robots that are designed to fit into the swords and sorcery genre. Those same laser guns and robots, if written for Starfinder natively, would be written differently.
The laser guns and robots in Pathfinder could be several hundred years outdated with current Starfinder standards. The high-tech stuff from Pathfinder makes for great things to find or encounter in Starfinder while exploring old spaceship wrecks. There could still be a planet out there that still uses that level of technology.
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Imagine the headache of trying to get your Laser Rifle Batteries recharged while out on vacation in Sandpoint.
When this drops fully, assuming what all we have heard (I have no reason to doubt it) that it being fully compatible with PF2r, I anticipate there will be something big taking us back to Numeria for a full-blown Adventure Path that is timed to release alongside a brand new full Starfinder launch AP during the SF2 release window.
There is NO WAY they're going to waste that opportunity if it clicks as well as they're promising to not have an AP that could leverage a mix of both systems in one game.
Personally I am looking forward to the possibility of bringing my new kineticist up to space and very confused by the universe.
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Personally I am looking forward to the possibility of bringing my new kineticist up to space and very confused by the universe.
The Kineticist is one of the Pathfinder classes I am most excited about bringing to Starfinder. Put one in a party with a Solarian and a Vanguard and never stop arguing about the fundamental nature of reality.
Plus things like "I can spontaneously generate breathable air and potable water" is super useful in space.
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Personally I am looking forward to the possibility of bringing my new kineticist up to space and very confused by the universe.The Kineticist is one of the Pathfinder classes I am most excited about bringing to Starfinder. Put one in a party with a Solarian and a Vanguard and never stop arguing about the fundamental nature of reality.
Add a shirren to the party to talk about all the options those conversations bring up...
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Plus things like "I can spontaneously generate breathable air and potable water" is super useful in space.
They are so useful that Starfinder people found dirt cheap and common ways to wave the problems away with armor protections, a 1st rank days/level mass air breathing party spell, and a cheap aeon stone that permanently makes food/water a thing of the past.
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Would be fun to see vortex gun in starfinder, I'm kinda missing some of the pf1e technology guide items xDYeah. All the wacky gear and gear effects were a big draw to Starfinder, at least for me. It's why I'm a bit sad that, so far, it doesn't seem like the soldier will be keeping its Gear Boost class feature. Using their gear in optimal and unique ways was always my favorite part of building a soldier. Maybe the fighter will get those abilities instead, should SF2E go printing feats for PF2E classes.
I would be extremely surprised should SF2E create content for PF2E classes.
With the basic system used becoming the same, classes are IMO the most fundamental building block of setting identity.
So, I expect them to be far apart.
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Would be fun to see vortex gun in starfinder, I'm kinda missing some of the pf1e technology guide items xDYeah. All the wacky gear and gear effects were a big draw to Starfinder, at least for me. It's why I'm a bit sad that, so far, it doesn't seem like the soldier will be keeping its Gear Boost class feature. Using their gear in optimal and unique ways was always my favorite part of building a soldier. Maybe the fighter will get those abilities instead, should SF2E go printing feats for PF2E classes.
They might not keep it as a class feature, but with the shift to the PF2 chassis, they'll get their own fair share of class feats. "I use my gear in unique and optimal ways" still looks like it's well within the Soldier thematic purview, and I'd be a bit surprised if it didn't make it onto the class feat list in *some* fashion.
I expect we'll also see some interesting Soldier feats for being able to hand out more/better suppression, make it last longer, and/or get further advantages out of it.
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I'm very excited about this compatibility. Starfinder has always been an interesting setting to me, but the mechanics weren't for me (I have several Star Wars systems that I like better). I don't know how closely it will hew to PF2, but if it's done in the same design headspace as it, I think it will be fun!
It doesn't have to be *exactly* the same for the two system to be kitbashable: Dungeon Crawl Classics and Mutant Crawl Classics are different, but similar. As people say, what's more important is the world and playstyle assumptions than the actual rules.
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I do like Starfinder at it's core, but at points I stumbled over some of the mechanics and design decisions and my core Players don't like the feeling of being at the Defensive side of Balance
The second edition at it's core working like Pathfinder is sure to remedy that
I am also looking forward to kasatha und lashunta on golarion
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I still say they need a Modernfinder game dealing with modern times and near future to tie the settings together. This may be problematic with the Gap, though.
This talk of compatibility has gotten me dusting off my old Chrono Trigger style time hopping campaign that I had in mind during d20 times, but rejected due to fundamental differences between 3.5, d20 modern, and d20 Star Wars. I know Paizo can do this better.