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Red Griffyn wrote: Its just pretty clear it doesn't need clarification on RAW.
Lets use a plain English language example with ladders, trees, and cats:
I need to get a cat down from a tree and it is 30ft up. I have a ladder worth 20ft of height (that I can clime really fast) but because I had the ladder for ~20 years I climb the branches slowly (since I never practised climbing trees for my entire life). Alternatively, I never bought a ladder 20 years ago so I climb branches at a moderate speed because all moments in my life to date where ascending trees has been required I essentially practised the skill.
Option 1: I can climb fast on the ladder for 20ft and then slowly for 10ft to save the cat
Option 2: I can climb the tree 30ft at moderate speed to save the cat.
Both options 1 and 2 are valid linear sequences of events/history. You can always, with no discontinuities trace a line from year 0 to today.
What is not valid is Option 3:
Option 3: I climb the ladder fast, then pseudo re-write history so I never had a ladder (yet remain in the tree and now acquire moderate climbing speed capabilities) so I can climb the remaining 10ft at moderate speed.
This is clearly the 'fastest' option but allows for exploitative optimization and narrative breaking event sequences. You can no longer draw a line from year 0 to now because there is a discontinuity after climbing the ladder yet then getting rid of it.
You guys are all arguing about whether option 1 and 2 are valid. They both are! The retraining rules and RAI is super clear that they are fine with Option 1 and 2 but want to prevent option 3. Hence why you'd have to retrain every sequence of skill, feat, etc. backwards so that narrative continuity remains.
Yeah I believe pretty much all systems including pf 1e don't allow that because it's goofy and narratively silly.
Calliope5431 wrote: Yeah I believe pretty much all systems including pf 1e don't allow that because it's goofy and narratively silly. Right! Another way to frame this same debate is literally in the pre-fixes being used.
A pre-requisite (i.e., preparatory action) is something you must meet before you do something (evaluation left to right).
A post-requisite (i.e., post condition) is something must you must meet at the conclusion of a process (evaluation right to left).
In the case before a pre-requisite to saving a cat from a tree is that there is a cat and a tree. The post-requisite to saving a cat from a tree is that the cat has been safely removed from the tree. The process of how one gets from A to B doesn't matter.
In the case of a single gate kineticist trying to take a composite blast at L8 they meet the pre-req of being one gate. If they wanted a post-requisite or thought it would impose an illogical build/clear trap feat option they would include wording like they do elsewhere in the game. For example when you take an archetype that says
"You become trained in skill X and skill y; for each of these skills in which you were already trained, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice."
The pre-requisite is an ability score of 14 (depending on archetype) and the post-requisite is you shall be trained in skill X and skill y.
I get that post-requirements are really non-intuitive because we think in linear sequences that only progress one way (i.e., time moves forward not backward), but its logically sound RAI and RAW.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
RAW, maybe, because the rules say very little about prerequisites.
RAI, you're taking an option explicitly designed for a single element character and bolting it onto someone with up to four elements, based on manipulating order of operations in a certain way with a dash of "technically it doesn't say you can't, probably." Kind of a hard sell to call that a clear and obvious design intent.
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I do think a valid reading is that the single element feats are a reward for not choosing a second element in your first two (elemental overlap) or three (elemental transformation) opportunities to do so.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote: I do think a valid reading is that the single element feats are a reward for not choosing a second element in your first two (elemental overlap) or three (elemental transformation) opportunities to do so. I notice you've said this a couple times. Why do you believe that a character that dual gates at 9 needs to be rewarded uniquely compared to other kineticists? I'm not sure where this premise that this particular configuration of options deserves something special really comes from.
Quick question, the Steam Knight feat lets you leap up to your speed and it also expect you to go over creatures. Leaps usually are done either longitudinally or vertically (and the effects that let you do both, like the Grasshopper talisman, tell you both distances), yet in order to go over a creature you need both height and lenght.
So, do you normally need 2 actions to go over a creature with 2 leaps (a vertical one followed by a longitudinal one since you don't fall as long as you keep jumping) or just one that lets you move to any point in the air that is within what your speed can reach?
Also, do you need to fall to the ground to do the damaging part or just be within 10 ft of the creature? I dig the aesthetics of that stance a lot, but the feat is weirdly written imo.
All this talk of DPR
But let's talk about how awesome a support kineticist is? Maybe people are fatigued with support casters I dunno.
At first I thought about going wood and water. Fresh produce and oceans balm and battle medicine. A strong defensive reaction in deflecting waves and great mitigation in timber sentinel.
But then I looked at wind! Four winds and cyclonic ascent are fantastic
By level 6 you could have 4 different heals *per player* on top of utility or AOE damage.
I did the math on how things would have gone in my av group if I had been running a kineticist in place of my war priest healer.
Between protector tree and heals the total affect was nearly the same. The only limitation was I couldn't slam 4 heals into one target.
Squiggit wrote: RAW, maybe, because the rules say very little about prerequisites.
RAI, you're taking an option explicitly designed for a single element character and bolting it onto someone with up to four elements, based on manipulating order of operations in a certain way with a dash of "technically it doesn't say you can't, probably." Kind of a hard sell to call that a clear and obvious design intent.
Its just basic application of logic. I'm a fan of my rules being logically consistent and the words being used having the meaning they are supposed to. As soon as you inject pseudo 'intent' into your discussion you've committed the error/fallacy and weakened your argument.
The option is explicitly designed for a single element character at L8 to get 'some' of the flavour/versatility of the class. That is all the feat says (nothing more nothing less) If you are single gate until L8 you meet the prescriptive requirements. You are not someone with 'four elements' manipulating a game design's weak wording (that is ALL an injection of your pseudo intent/hyperbole).
Its clear design intent because:
1.) It aligns with existing game design (i.e., aligns with retraining rules).
2.) It aligns with well understood definitions of the English language.
3.) Its level aligns with intended design (right before a fork opportunity as opposed to after).
4.) It imposes no wording that limits it in the way you want to interpret it to. If it was intended to limit you forever to a single it would have been easy to indicate this intent.
5.) It provides no wording relating to retraining or selecting alternative options, which allows for a 'dead feat' if we interpreted it your way. This is counter to the good design of Paizo and multiple examples where similar wording has been applied elsewhere. Its one thing to suggest a 'miss' if this was some interaction with another book/source but its much more compelling that a class was intentionally designed to be self consistent rather than asserting/assuming the opposite.
You're trying to paint my argument in a bad light, but yours basically amounts to incredulity 'this is to good to be true'. Except that isn't even true. The L9 single gate kineticist that uses this feat is losing flexibility/versatility and spending a higher level feat to achieve that loss. Consider two kineticists at L9 one is mono to L8 the other is 2 element focused, expanding the focus gate at L5 and L9:
Single Gate (Class Choices + L8 feat):
- Impulse Junction (L1)
- 2 mono element Impulses (L1)
- 1 Gate Junctions of Mono Element(L5)
- 1 mono element impulse (<L5)
- 1 Composite Blast (<L8 from L8 feat)
- 1 forked element impulse (<L9)
Dual Gate (focuses on two elements only Expands the gate of one element twice):
- Impulse Junction (L5 or L9)
- 3 focus element impulse (L1, < L5 OR Composite, < L9 or Composite)
- 1 Gate Junction (L5 or L9)
- 1 secondary element impulse (L1)
- 1 composite blast (either L4 or L6 feat)
The dual gate is spending lower level feats (L4 or L6 vs. L8) to achieve the same end state at L9 AND has more flexibility in order of operation to take things. All this L8 feat does is try to patch the fact that the single gate is behind in game design space. The literal only benefit to being a single gate all the way through is taking the feat to grab a composite impulse in an element they don't plan to fork to. That 'balance' is paid for with a feat 2-4+ levels higher than normal and a total loss of 8 levels of less versatility. Yet most of the composite impulses are weaker than in element features/impulses.
You guys are fighting to nerf something that is there to literally patch the sub-optimal build path because you 'think it might be too good'. It isn't and you're arguments are just unconvincing.
I think this needs to be spun off into it's own thread in rules discussion. It's also more likely to be seen by a paizo dev that way.
Spamotron wrote: I think this needs to be spun off into it's own thread in rules discussion. It's also more likely to be seen by a paizo dev that way. I was a while ago...
Martialmasters wrote: All this talk of DPR
But let's talk about how awesome a support kineticist is? Maybe people are fatigued with support casters I dunno.
At first I thought about going wood and water. Fresh produce and oceans balm and battle medicine. A strong defensive reaction in deflecting waves and great mitigation in timber sentinel.
But then I looked at wind! Four winds and cyclonic ascent are fantastic
By level 6 you could have 4 different heals *per player* on top of utility or AOE damage.
I did the math on how things would have gone in my av group if I had been running a kineticist in place of my war priest healer.
Between protector tree and heals the total affect was nearly the same. The only limitation was I couldn't slam 4 heals into one target.
Support Kineticists are interesting but isn't so noticeable as spellcasters in this area due their are fewer and need some higher levels and due supporting spells usually don't requires your best spellslots usually do a kineticist focus in support may be not the best but is still cool if you want a mix of offensive and supportive abilities.
For example for each element what we get as support:
Fire:
Kindle Inner Flames (lvl 8 - 1-action) is an interesting feat the gives allies +1 to reflex as status bonus (always useful due being a bit rare to get long duration status bonus to any defense) and +2 as additional fire damage and starting from lvl 12 this increases to 1d6. But it competes with other stances so forces you to do a choice. Also due its being an aura effect its effectiveness will depend from you positioning to the party, if you are playing as a frontliner this will probably the best scenario once usually they use Strikes as primary attack action but at same time if you are a single fire kineticist this will be worse than Thermal Nimbus in frontline. If you are playing as a backliner it will be useful only if the other backliner players uses Strikes. So it effectiveness is complicated.
Ignite the Sun (lvl 18 - 2-actions) is probably the best supportive impulse for fire kineticists once it potentially add extra fire damage to all allies at same time that gives you some damage effect too. IMO its represents the main idea of the kineticist, an offensive character that can be supportive and aggressive at same time.
Air:
Ghosts in the Storm (lvl 12 - 1-action) is basically the air version of Kindle Inner Flames but stronger but also is higher level. Its status reflex bonus is +2 and also benefits acrobatics and gives each ally in the aura concealed condition and shock rune extra damage but have same aura and stance limitations that I mentioned in Kindle Inner Flames.
Metal:
Conductive Sphere (lvl 8 - 2-actions) this gives your an extra damage in Strikes, a shock rune, but unlike them its a sustainable impulse that also gives allies eletricity resistance and does a small amount of damage to an opponent.
Shattershields (lvl 12 - 1-action) this probably one of the most interesting stances I already saw. It's basically an AoE shield that protects you and all allies in your aura giving +1 circumstance bonus to AC, also gives a action/reaction-less "shield block" due this you and your allies can combine it with normal shield blocking and resistances (nothing in the rules prevents you to use hardness twice, one from this stance and another from a normal shield block). This impulse also need some clarification like what happens when all plates are destroyed, the stance ends? If not it still keeps the +1 circumstance to AC?
Wood:
Timber Sentinel (lvl 1 - 2-actions) this is at-will protector tree spell nothing more, nothing less except that you can't have more than one tree at time but this impulse still very powerful once its practically a large source of a shared temp-hp for all closer allies and the fact that it can "recasted" freely replenishing this pools makes this impulse very powerful.
Orchard's Endurance (lvl 14 - 1-action) this stance is basically a AoE lvl 6 barkskin spell buff to all allies in the kineticist aura but without the fire weakness and also gives "advantage" in all persistent damage recovery checks making it very competitive with the original barkskin spell but at same time this usually requires that kineticist to stay at frontline (usually not a big problem for wood kineticists) and also competes with other stance options.
Turn the Wheel of Seasons (lvl 18 - 3-actions overflow) this impulse isn't one of the best as support because its support effect (Spring) only gives 20 temp-hp and a extra dying recovery check to everyone without risk of failure progress your dying condition. The rest of impulse execution basically debuff or damages the opponents.
Water:
Sea Glass Guardians (lvl 12 - 1-action) this stance give a very useful +1 status bonus to all defenses what means this sum with circumstance bonuses like shields and covers also auto-heal you or one ally if suffer from a critical damage but this ends the impulse (what isn't a big problem once the kineticist can "cast" it again) the also good part of this impulse is that the creatures doesn't becomes immune to it.
Examples of healing impulses:
Wood:
Fresh Produce (lvl 1 - 2-actions) this is basically a weaker version of goodberry but with some advantages and disadvantages. Its a bit heal less than a goodberry at first level but also don't need a "1 ripe barry" to be "casted" but at same time is unable to heal the same creature again in less than 10-minutes while goodberrys can potentially by casted up 3-times (depending from focus point limit) per round and used in same creature (yet still requires a lot of berries). But in the end Fresh Produce is better because don't compete with other impulses for a same source of resource like focus spells does.
Dash of Herbs (lvl 6 - 2-actions) Another wood healing impulse. This one allows a character to attempt a new save vs one malady between confused, disease, poison, and sickened at same time that allows the character to be healed and if the characters chooses only to be healed the healing dice increases to d10. But curiously the healing power of this impulse is weaker than Fresh Produce yet is still useful to be used in a creature that is already immune to Fresh Produce the other strange point of this impulse is that new saves vs maledy don't says that it doesn't improve in case of failure/critical failure making it potentially dangerous to do this. Probably this isn't intended.
Sanguivolent Roots (lvl 8 - 3-actions overflow) this is of the rare real life stealing effects of the game. Its damage and consequently healing effect isn't most strongest but is AoE and different from other impulses no one becomes immune to it and due its being a sustainable impulse is pretty action economic unless the creatures moves and you need to "recast" the impulse.
Water:
Ocean's Balm (lvl 1 - 1-action) this basically is the 1-action healing spell with an additional fire resistance buff for 1 minute. As others healing impulses the target becomes immune for 10 minutes.
Torrent in the Blood (lvl 6 - 2-actions overflow) this is pretty similar to Dash of Herbs but its healing power is bit weaker and has overflow trait for other side its AoE allowing to heal many allies at same time (yet due cone characteristics do this can be pretty tricky to avoid enemies and may requires that kineticist get more closer to front line than is safe) also like Dash of Herbs it allows to do another check vs disease and poison (but not vs confused and sickened) but different from it doesn't risk to improve the disease and poison condition in case of failure. As normal to others impulses the chars that benefit from the impuse becomes immune to it for 10 minutes.
Composite:
Ambush Bladderwoth (lvl 4 - 3-actions - water+wood) this is a complicated composite impulse that create somewhat a trap that to immobilize a target that pass over it if a creatures dies in it, it creates a fruit that heals 1d8+4 every 4 levels and to a creature that consumes this fruit and makes this creature immune to this heal for 10 minutes. Honestly this is a hard to full work, the enemies may suspect you of creating a bladderwort and try to avoid it also expect that an enemy stays entangled into it until dies in implausible. IMO this impulse doesn't worth the investment.
Tree of Duality (lvl 6 - 3-actions - air+wood) this impulse is curious, its heal little (half of a 1-action healing) but is ranged AoE and its not a stance or overflow and also make enemies dazzled without check (what is pretty good) and is sustainable but don't heal an ally twice during 10 minutes. The "problem" of this composite spell is that if you are trying to do a healing kineticist you won't probably choosing air+wood combination but it still a good option for those who chooses this to be air+wood kineticists for other reasons and for pure wood kineticists that can take it at lvl 8.
I don't include utility impulses like those who creates walls, fly and invisibility in this analysis because they aren't a "real" buff impulses that gives numeric benefits to allies, I also ignored self-buffs only.
After checking all these impulses I come to a conclusion that do a kineticist focuses in buff can be a little tricky. There are some buff impulses that are very good specially those ones that gives defensive bonuses but you need to pay attention that many are stances forcing you to need to do a choice. Also healing impulses are pretty weaker when compared to heal and soothe and being able to keep healing the same creature in battle will require a lot of feat investment to workaround the 10 minutes limits and may force the kineticist to be wood+water. But for other side this kineticist is the best out-of-combat healer by far, surpassing the alchemist + medic in out-of-combat healing and diminishing the more of 10-minutes rest pressure a lot.
Should we expect a rewrite of Burn it! to include impulses or is the definition of impulse good enough to apply the feat? "Some things that affect spells also affect impulses."
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Martialmasters wrote: All this talk of DPR
But let's talk about how awesome a support kineticist is? Maybe people are fatigued with support casters I dunno.
Kineticist fills the niche for people who want the energy blasting specialist. Something many people have been waiting for ever since the PF2 playtest.
It is only natural people focus on the DPR aspect first.
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The Raven Black wrote: Martialmasters wrote: All this talk of DPR
But let's talk about how awesome a support kineticist is? Maybe people are fatigued with support casters I dunno.
Kineticist fills the niche for people who want the energy blasting specialist. Something many people have been waiting for ever since the PF2 playtest.
It is only natural people focus on the DPR aspect first. People do want a consistent martial type damage energy blaster. I do agree.
Doesn't help that a support kineticist is never going to match a caster at support just by virtue of not having any real math fixing and needing failed saves for many of their effects.
I'll gladly take kineticist archetype on a caster though. Plenty of nice abilities to poach there.
graystone wrote: Spamotron wrote: I think this needs to be spun off into it's own thread in rules discussion. It's also more likely to be seen by a paizo dev that way. I was a while ago... Link to the thread in Rules
What happens if you use both Armor in Earth and Metal Carapace/Hardwood Armor? Can you get the Earth (plate equivalent) heavy armor and the metal/wood shield?
These are both impulses without the stance trait, so they're not mutually exclusive. They each have the language "any bonuses, runes, or magical abilities of your actual armor are suppressed" but none of these things are your actual armor.
Is this a situation like "if you wear your chain shirt under your plate mail, you just apply the plate mail stats"?
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Well the game doesn't define it directly so its up to GM to decide.
For situation of "if you wear your chain shirt under your plate mail, you just apply the plate mail stats" I just use the Held or Worn rules considering all armors like following the same rule of Magic Armors so you are unable to worn 2 armors at same time.
For Kineticist impulses that get over an currently armor if you "cast" 2 of them I would only consider just the greatest values of them (for the best and the worse) and the sum of their bulks. I also allows to summon their shields but you can rise only one and have only one in each hand.
But being honest I want an errata defining this.
The Raven Black wrote: Martialmasters wrote: All this talk of DPR
But let's talk about how awesome a support kineticist is? Maybe people are fatigued with support casters I dunno.
Kineticist fills the niche for people who want the energy blasting specialist. Something many people have been waiting for ever since the PF2 playtest.
It is only natural people focus on the DPR aspect first. Well I expect them to be disappointed
Less dpr than a martial still
AOE less damage than spells
Single target outside of fire gimmick build is kind of anemic
I like where they sit but that's because they offer good consistent utility and support options on top of no resource blasting.
I just think only focusing on one thing is going to result in the same phenomenon as most pf2e characters.
You get incredibly bored and one dimensional
Martialmasters wrote: The Raven Black wrote: Martialmasters wrote: All this talk of DPR
But let's talk about how awesome a support kineticist is? Maybe people are fatigued with support casters I dunno.
Kineticist fills the niche for people who want the energy blasting specialist. Something many people have been waiting for ever since the PF2 playtest.
It is only natural people focus on the DPR aspect first. Well I expect them to be disappointed
Less dpr than a martial still
AOE less damage than spells
Single target outside of fire gimmick build is kind of anemic
I like where they sit but that's because they offer good consistent utility and support options on top of no resource blasting.
I just think only focusing on one thing is going to result in the same phenomenon as most pf2e characters.
You get incredibly bored and one dimensional my opinion is that you can diversify a lot though.
if we exlude fire build that can really stack up good damage (at the expense of utility mostly) the rest of the elements have a good mix of control, utility, and support tools that you can grab alongside some decent damage options.
the thing is, with "1 feat 1 ability" you don't really need to pick every single control or every single support in a build.
my reasoning is simple:
action economy.
at any given point in an encounter, you only have 3 actions. So, if at some point you have to control, you are only really going to use 1 control ability. if you have to support, you can only use one support ability. and etc.
now, i don't say only pick 1 from each category, because there are differences between them that may make some options suboptimal, or just straight bad, in a situation, but you don't need all your 10 abilities to be control or all 10 to be support or all 10 to be utility for any given build.
having 2-3 solid options, alongside with always having access to all of melee, ranged and aoe, damage options, will mean that there's a great chance that eveyr round you have a very good option to do.
now, if we add all the above in a very durable* frame, and you have a good class.
*4/6 elements have a good level 1 defensive ability, you are basically a d10 class, have the best fort saves in the game, have both juggernaut early and evasion.
When you overflow when exactly does your aura turn off? The book says "when you use an impulse that has the overflow trait, your kinetic aura deactivates".
So is that "when you choose to use that impulse and spend the actions" or "after you have rolled damage"? Since that matters for like the fire aura- ideally you'd want the weakness to apply to your overflow impulses.
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PossibleCabbage wrote: When you overflow when exactly does your aura turn off? The book says "when you use an impulse that has the overflow trait, your kinetic aura deactivates".
So is that "when you choose to use that impulse and spend the actions" or "after you have rolled damage"? Since that matters for like the fire aura- ideally you'd want the weakness to apply to your overflow impulses.
I'd say you have to do the action/activity first, as you've already sent the actions for it, before you move on to deactivating your aura.
I may have missed someone else commenting on it: but I find it endlessly hilarious that a Metal Kineticist can generate infinite wealth at level 1.
Base Kinesis: Generate. I generate a small piece of platinum. I repeat ad infinitum.
Even if your GM says you can't choose what you generate from the plane of metal, which, fine, valid, Extended Kinesis: Proliferate. I purchase a single raw chunk of platinum ore. Proliferate it into a 5 foot *cube* of raw platinum. I proceed to generate a new 5 foot cube of this every round until I have broken the economy.
EDIT: Honestly I think Kinesis and Extended Kinesis might be the secret MVP of the entire kineticist class. Earth Kineticists creating entire fortresses from solid stone literally overnight. Water creating entire lakes within hours. Wood causing entire forests to sprout overnight.
And fire and air... doing something I guess lmfao
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FlySkyHigh wrote: I may have missed someone else commenting on it: but I find it endlessly hilarious that a Metal Kineticist can generate infinite wealth at level 1.
Base Kinesis: Generate. I generate a small piece of platinum. I repeat ad infinitum.
Even if your GM says you can't choose what you generate from the plane of metal, which, fine, valid, Extended Kinesis: Proliferate. I purchase a single raw chunk of platinum ore. Proliferate it into a 5 foot *cube* of raw platinum. I proceed to generate a new 5 foot cube of this every round until I have broken the economy.
They thought ahead and in the sidebar it stipulates you can only generate mundane or worthless materials through base kinesis
FlySkyHigh wrote: I may have missed someone else commenting on it: but I find it endlessly hilarious that a Metal Kineticist can generate infinite wealth at level 1.
Base Kinesis: Generate. I generate a small piece of platinum. I repeat ad infinitum.
Even if your GM says you can't choose what you generate from the plane of metal, which, fine, valid, Extended Kinesis: Proliferate. I purchase a single raw chunk of platinum ore. Proliferate it into a 5 foot *cube* of raw platinum. I proceed to generate a new 5 foot cube of this every round until I have broken the economy.
EDIT: Honestly I think Kinesis and Extended Kinesis might be the secret MVP of the entire kineticist class. Earth Kineticists creating entire fortresses from solid stone literally overnight. Water creating entire lakes within hours. Wood causing entire forests to sprout overnight.
And fire and air... doing something I guess lmfao
Yeah that ability is kind of dumb and silly. People naturally love it because you can use it to break the game, but I probably will outright ban it and just say "hey you can move 5-ft of your element up to 30 ft"
aobst128 wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: I may have missed someone else commenting on it: but I find it endlessly hilarious that a Metal Kineticist can generate infinite wealth at level 1.
Base Kinesis: Generate. I generate a small piece of platinum. I repeat ad infinitum.
Even if your GM says you can't choose what you generate from the plane of metal, which, fine, valid, Extended Kinesis: Proliferate. I purchase a single raw chunk of platinum ore. Proliferate it into a 5 foot *cube* of raw platinum. I proceed to generate a new 5 foot cube of this every round until I have broken the economy.
They thought ahead and in the sidebar it stipulates you can only generate mundane or worthless materials through base kinesis Ah damn, you're totally right. I missed that sidebar entirely.
Ah well, Earth can still make entire fortresses of stone since stone is "of negligible value".
FlySkyHigh wrote: aobst128 wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: I may have missed someone else commenting on it: but I find it endlessly hilarious that a Metal Kineticist can generate infinite wealth at level 1.
Base Kinesis: Generate. I generate a small piece of platinum. I repeat ad infinitum.
Even if your GM says you can't choose what you generate from the plane of metal, which, fine, valid, Extended Kinesis: Proliferate. I purchase a single raw chunk of platinum ore. Proliferate it into a 5 foot *cube* of raw platinum. I proceed to generate a new 5 foot cube of this every round until I have broken the economy.
They thought ahead and in the sidebar it stipulates you can only generate mundane or worthless materials through base kinesis Ah damn, you're totally right. I missed that sidebar entirely.
Ah well, Earth can still make entire fortresses of stone since stone is "of negligible value".
That would take a while if you're only able to generate 1 bulk per 4 levels you have at a time but yeah probably. Wood has hedge maze that can generate a house for 3 actions though
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Define "mundane and worthless". 10 Tons of earth and stone is not worthless. Nor is 10 Tons of the worst metal (metal can always be refined). Water is never "worthless". Nor is creating free vegetable matter.
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Temperans wrote: Define "mundane and worthless". 10 Tons of earth and stone is not worthless. Nor is 10 Tons of the worst metal (metal can always be refined). Water is never "worthless". Nor is creating free vegetable matter. It pretty much just means "Do not try selling your elements"
The actual word they used was that you create things of "negligible value" so yeah, it's worth at least something.
aobst128 wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: aobst128 wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: I may have missed someone else commenting on it: but I find it endlessly hilarious that a Metal Kineticist can generate infinite wealth at level 1.
Base Kinesis: Generate. I generate a small piece of platinum. I repeat ad infinitum.
Even if your GM says you can't choose what you generate from the plane of metal, which, fine, valid, Extended Kinesis: Proliferate. I purchase a single raw chunk of platinum ore. Proliferate it into a 5 foot *cube* of raw platinum. I proceed to generate a new 5 foot cube of this every round until I have broken the economy.
They thought ahead and in the sidebar it stipulates you can only generate mundane or worthless materials through base kinesis Ah damn, you're totally right. I missed that sidebar entirely.
Ah well, Earth can still make entire fortresses of stone since stone is "of negligible value".
That would take a while if you're only able to generate 1 bulk per 4 levels you have at a time but yeah probably. Wood has hedge maze that can generate a house for 3 actions though With Extended Kinesis you can generate a 5 foot solid cube of the material every round. Using that math, an Earth Kineticist could put a 5' high 5' thick wall around the entirety of modern day london in about 53 hours of work.
Temperans wrote: Define "mundane and worthless". 10 Tons of earth and stone is not worthless. Nor is 10 Tons of the worst metal (metal can always be refined). Water is never "worthless". Nor is creating free vegetable matter. The actual sidebar says "Elements you create (using Base Kinesis to generate an element, for example) must typically be ordinary materials of negligible value. You can’t create precious or valuable materials like silver, gemstones, or duskwood unless otherwise noted."
So things like stone and water or plant matter should be fine, but no special or "valuable" materials.
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I think you could maybe use your impulse attack modifier as a means of earning income. Heard that somewhere here but that would be a houserule.
FlySkyHigh wrote: aobst128 wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: aobst128 wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: I may have missed someone else commenting on it: but I find it endlessly hilarious that a Metal Kineticist can generate infinite wealth at level 1.
Base Kinesis: Generate. I generate a small piece of platinum. I repeat ad infinitum.
Even if your GM says you can't choose what you generate from the plane of metal, which, fine, valid, Extended Kinesis: Proliferate. I purchase a single raw chunk of platinum ore. Proliferate it into a 5 foot *cube* of raw platinum. I proceed to generate a new 5 foot cube of this every round until I have broken the economy.
They thought ahead and in the sidebar it stipulates you can only generate mundane or worthless materials through base kinesis Ah damn, you're totally right. I missed that sidebar entirely.
Ah well, Earth can still make entire fortresses of stone since stone is "of negligible value".
That would take a while if you're only able to generate 1 bulk per 4 levels you have at a time but yeah probably. Wood has hedge maze that can generate a house for 3 actions though With Extended Kinesis you can generate a 5 foot solid cube of the material every round. Using that math, an Earth Kineticist could put a 5' high 5' thick wall around the entirety of modern day london in about 53 hours of work.
Temperans wrote: Define "mundane and worthless". 10 Tons of earth and stone is not worthless. Nor is 10 Tons of the worst metal (metal can always be refined). Water is never "worthless". Nor is creating free vegetable matter. The actual sidebar says "Elements you create (using Base Kinesis to generate an element, for example) must typically be ordinary materials of negligible value. You can’t create precious or valuable materials like silver, gemstones, or duskwood unless otherwise noted."
So things like stone and water or plant matter should be fine, but no special or "valuable" materials. I don't think you get it. All those things are "valuable" materials.
There is no such thing as "cheap metal", there is no such thing as "cheap stone". Even if you say "you can only make oxidized iron and dirt" the former is still highly valuable for a multitude of uses and the latter is very valuable for anybody trying to do construction.
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Temperans wrote:
I don't think you get it. All those things are "valuable" materials.
There is no such thing as "cheap metal", there is no such thing as "cheap stone". Even if you say "you can only make oxidized iron and dirt" the former is still highly valuable for a multitude of uses and the latter is very valuable for anybody trying to do construction.
Sure, but as far as PF2 is concerned, stone, vegetable mater, and water, are of negligible value. There's a reason why there's no listed price for water, or for stone. They aren't even listed as trade goods.
If you run a game and you want to tell a kineticist "jokes on you, your kinesis ability doesn't function because everything has too much value", that's your choice. As far as the system is concerned, basic materials like these are so cheap they don't even deserve to be given a price.
EDIT: as a quick Note, LUMBER, which is the only available trade good that might fit into this category, is worth 1 copper piece for 40 feet of board. I'd say that falls pretty squarely into the "negligible value" category.
EDIT2: I'd also note that Lumber's value probably comes more from the fact that it has in fact been processed into Lumber rather than just raw wood. So bulk quantities of wood would be worth less than a copper.
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Temperans wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: aobst128 wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: aobst128 wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: I may have missed someone else commenting on it: but I find it endlessly hilarious that a Metal Kineticist can generate infinite wealth at level 1.
Base Kinesis: Generate. I generate a small piece of platinum. I repeat ad infinitum.
Even if your GM says you can't choose what you generate from the plane of metal, which, fine, valid, Extended Kinesis: Proliferate. I purchase a single raw chunk of platinum ore. Proliferate it into a 5 foot *cube* of raw platinum. I proceed to generate a new 5 foot cube of this every round until I have broken the economy.
They thought ahead and in the sidebar it stipulates you can only generate mundane or worthless materials through base kinesis Ah damn, you're totally right. I missed that sidebar entirely.
Ah well, Earth can still make entire fortresses of stone since stone is "of negligible value".
That would take a while if you're only able to generate 1 bulk per 4 levels you have at a time but yeah probably. Wood has hedge maze that can generate a house for 3 actions though With Extended Kinesis you can generate a 5 foot solid cube of the material every round. Using that math, an Earth Kineticist could put a 5' high 5' thick wall around the entirety of modern day london in about 53 hours of work.
Temperans wrote: Define "mundane and worthless". 10 Tons of earth and stone is not worthless. Nor is 10 Tons of the worst metal (metal can always be refined). Water is never "worthless". Nor is creating free vegetable matter. The actual sidebar says "Elements you create (using Base Kinesis to generate an element, for example) must typically be ordinary materials of negligible value. You can’t create precious or valuable materials like silver, gemstones, or duskwood unless otherwise noted."
So things like stone and water or plant matter should be fine, but no special or "valuable" materials. I don't... Yeah, the logic kinda breaks down but it's important characters can't just generate wealth spontaneously. It's just there for balance reasons. Best not to think about it too much.
aobst128 wrote: I think you could maybe use your impulse attack modifier as a means of earning income. Heard that somewhere here but that would be a houserule. I made this suggestion in rules forum to give a more verisimilitude midterm between having no value and the exploit. Also due impulses modifier usually progressing worse than skills this never will be too good to be true.
FlySkyHigh wrote: Temperans wrote:
I don't think you get it. All those things are "valuable" materials.
There is no such thing as "cheap metal", there is no such thing as "cheap stone". Even if you say "you can only make oxidized iron and dirt" the former is still highly valuable for a multitude of uses and the latter is very valuable for anybody trying to do construction.
Sure, but as far as PF2 is concerned, stone, vegetable mater, and water, are of negligible value. There's a reason why there's no listed price for water, or for stone. They aren't even listed as trade goods.
If you run a game and you want to tell a kineticist "jokes on you, your kinesis ability doesn't function because everything has too much value", that's your choice. As far as the system is concerned, basic materials like these are so cheap they don't even deserve to be given a price.
EDIT: as a quick Note, LUMBER, which is the only available trade good that might fit into this category, is worth 1 copper piece for 40 feet of board. I'd say that falls pretty squarely into the "negligible value" category.
EDIT2: I'd also note that Lumber's value probably comes more from the fact that it has in fact been processed into Lumber rather than just raw wood. So bulk quantities of wood would be worth less than a copper. A stone fortress is in no way cheap.
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the examples (you cannot create) given (gemstones, silver, gold) indicate what the extend of the power is.
you can create plain old rock, iron deposits, and the like. i wouldn't allow blocks of steel, sure, but given the example given for what you CAN create (stick into tree) clearly indicates that mundane stuff like wood and etc are allowed.
The Raven Black wrote: FlySkyHigh wrote: Temperans wrote:
I don't think you get it. All those things are "valuable" materials.
There is no such thing as "cheap metal", there is no such thing as "cheap stone". Even if you say "you can only make oxidized iron and dirt" the former is still highly valuable for a multitude of uses and the latter is very valuable for anybody trying to do construction.
Sure, but as far as PF2 is concerned, stone, vegetable mater, and water, are of negligible value. There's a reason why there's no listed price for water, or for stone. They aren't even listed as trade goods.
If you run a game and you want to tell a kineticist "jokes on you, your kinesis ability doesn't function because everything has too much value", that's your choice. As far as the system is concerned, basic materials like these are so cheap they don't even deserve to be given a price.
EDIT: as a quick Note, LUMBER, which is the only available trade good that might fit into this category, is worth 1 copper piece for 40 feet of board. I'd say that falls pretty squarely into the "negligible value" category.
EDIT2: I'd also note that Lumber's value probably comes more from the fact that it has in fact been processed into Lumber rather than just raw wood. So bulk quantities of wood would be worth less than a copper. A stone fortress is in no way cheap. And you do have a point, medieval quarries and bricklaying were profitable enterprises.
But in practice, the game is not about playing a merchant. That's why "quickened spell" and "bespell weapon" are feats, while "quickened tax refund" and "generate dividend" are not.
Also, the amount of stone you generate at level 5 is 1 whole Bulk. That's the same as the weight of a longsword, which the internet says is about 2 pounds. You can generate rocks about as fast as an ordinary, non-kineticist peasant can pick them up off a beach, and you're not generating anything big enough to actually matter (like something that would take a bunch of time to cut and get out of a quarry).
(if I were DMing I'd just count it as earn income money, myself)
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The Raven Black wrote: A stone fortress is in no way cheap. in labor, sure. If you remove the labor and material costs, how much is it? You aren't selling individual blocks after all, but the effort it took to put all those blocks together. Negligible, in this instance, is 'how much can I go to the market and sell it for': so how much would you expect a stone brick to go for?
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I really wonder how many geokineticists just retire from adventuring once they get igneogenesis building themselves elaborate stone structures one 5' cube at a time.
Like "spend an hour to make a 5' wall that is permanent and made of solid granite because you are a magical person" is a lot more efficient than any other way of doing this, since one person can do it by "moving rocks with their mind".
PossibleCabbage wrote: I really wonder how many geokineticists just retire from adventuring once they get igneogenesis building themselves elaborate stone structures one 5' cube at a time.
Like "spend an hour to make a 5' wall that is permanent and made of solid granite because you are a magical person" is a lot more efficient than any other way of doing this, since one person can do it by "moving rocks with their mind".
hey! level 7 you double the output, why stop at level 4?!
Metal and wood can just retire at any time given its unlimited iron ore and wood. Both of which are evergreen markets.
PossibleCabbage wrote: I really wonder how many geokineticists just retire from adventuring once they get igneogenesis building themselves elaborate stone structures one 5' cube at a time.
Like "spend an hour to make a 5' wall that is permanent and made of solid granite because you are a magical person" is a lot more efficient than any other way of doing this, since one person can do it by "moving rocks with their mind".
Igneogenesis would be nice for fancier construction. If you just want bare bones blocky constructions, a handful of level 1 geokineticists with Expanded Kinesis can build entire towns in a handful of days.
shroudb wrote: PossibleCabbage wrote: I really wonder how many geokineticists just retire from adventuring once they get igneogenesis building themselves elaborate stone structures one 5' cube at a time.
Like "spend an hour to make a 5' wall that is permanent and made of solid granite because you are a magical person" is a lot more efficient than any other way of doing this, since one person can do it by "moving rocks with their mind".
hey! level 7 you double the output, why stop at level 4?!
safety
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Temperans wrote: Metal and wood can just retire at any time given its unlimited iron ore and wood. Both of which are evergreen markets. No, clearly only one of those is an evergreen market.
Maybe it's the superstitious nature of the world that hurts this retirement plan. People might not want to live in a house made of materials from another plane. Could cause a cataclysmic planar incursion by bring so much together in one plane. People still remember the world wound I bet lol.
aobst128 wrote: Maybe it's the superstitious nature of the world that hurts this retirement plan. People might not want to live in a house made of materials from another plane. Could cause a cataclysmic planar incursion by bring so much together in one plane. People still remember the world wound I bet lol. Last time I checked that had nothing to do with bringing extraplanar materials.
I think a key point about the setting is that Kineticists are somewhat rarer than other classes. There just aren't a lot of them, so the fact that something *could* happen has no bearing on whether it does.
Like in PF1 you could make a Kinetic Healer who could cure every person in the world of blindness (and a lot of other maladies) at no cost (put the burn on the person you're curing, tell them to get a good night's sleep). Nevertheless this didn't happen on Golarion.
I think "I'm going to spend time by myself building my cool stonework building" is a valid thing to do for a geokineticist. Like a valid way to do this is to do the basic construction underground, and then eventually raise the thing with igneokinesis. So you can just cover up your excavation before you leave so that squatters don't move in.
Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: Maybe it's the superstitious nature of the world that hurts this retirement plan. People might not want to live in a house made of materials from another plane. Could cause a cataclysmic planar incursion by bring so much together in one plane. People still remember the world wound I bet lol. Last time I checked that had nothing to do with bringing extraplanar materials. Just an example. I don't know what the hypothetical superstitions of the general population are. Just a thought
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PossibleCabbage wrote: I think a key point about the setting is that Kineticists are somewhat rarer than other classes. Are they? They don't have a rarity tag and I don't see anything in the book that immediately jumps out to suggest they should be especially uncommon.
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