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I like that this is being done. It makes the game simpler while still retaining a lot of the core mechanics.
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I think it'll be less simple, there's a few subtle distinctions between the two.
For instance, the Silence spell stops speaking including spells with verbal components. Silence will need errata but I wonder how this errata will look without changing some edge cases.
My guess is that it might read something like "all spells with the concentrate trait" but that hurts Psychics who used to replace verbal components with special mental components that still have Concentrate. Similarly, the Silent Spell metamagic will need an overhaul. And I'm sure there's a few more effects like that, such as deafened affecting verbal spells as speaking has the Auditory trait.
Besides that, how will it be listed? Right now the two traits are listed in the action entry, but if they are baked directly into spells in the traits box, I fear it might clutter up a spell sheet from more specific traits like Fire, Mental, Polymorph, Illusion, Contingency and so on.
And material will need a new name too; its significance was that you needed a free hand to use them. A new Free Hand trait?
It doesn't look too cluttered. I was initially worried, but with the spell school trait getting dropped, it's usually only one extra tag and it frees up the component line of the spell entry.
We can get some sneak peak in they work in this preview of Rage of Elements Spells.
Basically in they lost the verbal and somatic to get their traits only.
We don't know yet but probably the audible parte of verbal requirements will now be in the class spellcasting description instead (making the some classes neding to speak while concentrate while others like psychics not).
About material components I'm almost certain that Paizo will simple remove them at all.
This just remastering also removed Wish spell from level 10 to a ritual.
I don't know the details I only get this info from a note from Rage of Elements.
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This just remastering also removed Wish spell from level 10 to a ritual.Really?! Where?
And what the blazes for?
Also how this would work with the half of the purpose of these spells - copying (almost) any other?
We don't know whether or not the spell as we know it got removed or renamed, but the ritual is something that noble genies can do more easily in order to grant wishes now. Sounds like it's back in the narrative power category.
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I'm surprised that the genies got revamped with new names. I figured a lot of those would be "safe".
IIRC genies are going to be closer to their mythological origins. Also has everyone seen the Divine Immolation spoiler?
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So is the general consensus that the Remaster is almost entirely a "scratch off the serial numbers" affair or if is that + actual worthwhile improvements/rewording/clarifications as well?
I don't see much of what has been discussed such as dropping Alignment and renaming certain Traits as being that impactful at all. On one hand that's a good thing as it means you really don't HAVE to reinvest in the new revamp as it is being made mostly as a lawyer shield but on the other hand I was really hoping they'd actually refine and improve the stuff beyond just one or two tweaks such as the Refocus rule revamp which could have been done via iterative errata sweeps.
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Absolutely the remaster is not a “scratching off the serial number” approach. Beyond the fact that pretty much implies laziness and bad intentions to keep using “stolen” material, the changes are also bigger than name changes. Almost everything revealed is showing that.
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Changing the name of things without altering or improving how they work is pretty much the textbook definition of scratching off the serial numbers... and I'm really not seeing much of anything other than the declared alteration of Refocusing and hints as how some Spells are being tweaked that lends itself to being evidence of a holistic approach rather than a defensive legal measure that they feel they have no choice but to make.
I'm also not trying to assign laziness here, if anything it's quite the opposite, they're trying to pull out every thread that might potentially MAYBE be used as evidence that the work isn't original even when it is obviously derivative in terms of concepts.
I also don't personally buy the idea that much of the things that are being changed needed to be, the legal standing for this stuff is completely unknown and shaky at best which would lead to millions spend, years invested, and yet another protracted PR nightmare news cycle until it is all resolved, almost certainly not in the favor of HASBRO no matter how large they are. The work CAN'T be stolen because the concepts are universal ones and I don't believe any court would ever find otherwise lest they set a precedent that begins a descent into litigation madness across all forms of artistry where common inspiration, terminology, and methodology is shared.
I guess I have my hopes set on the end product being worthy of the term Remaster rather than primarily being an attempt do dodge litigation, they're already opening the patient for surgery anyhow so they might as well remove as many of the known cysts that have been discovered along the way.
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Well they needed sometime to prepare things. Looking for their side all the OGL crisis was a surprise for them too.
Anyway looks like we will get some info about remaster changes too just after release of Rage of Elements because in the note we have "You can find a preview document with the full details at paizo.com/corepreview". This link isn't working yet but its a signal that we will get something more consistent very soon.
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Well, they really should start giving comprehensive information on changes. It's not a secret anymore, it never was an actual normal product, and the books are finished as far as I understand. This 'drama' and guesswork are all a consequence of lack of information. And I don't think anyone needs this.Small improvements and cosmetic changes appear throughout,All the drama was based on forum posters' wishlists and anxieties, not anything Paizo staff said.
Player Core 1 and the GM Core are surely finished. Player Core 2 most probably is not yet and it is there where I'd expect heavier changes to classes to happen, given that most the classes in Player Core 2 are ones which seem to have players complaining about one aspect or another. I think the Witch was announced to have biggest changes for the Player Core 1 classes.
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When it comes to spells pizo could just do what they already have.
Give spells traits: Phonetic, Gesture, and Object.
Phonetic: you have to be able to speak.
Gesture: you have to be able to move.
Object: you have to have an object or a gold cost.You then combine the words concentrate and manipulate into a universal trait.
[Notes]
This is not a perfect solution.
Yet Paizo already made their decision and the traits is already set as Manipulation and Concentrate.
The doubt that still takes is that if spellcasters yet need to spell the spells? If yes this will be defined by classes or will be a general rule? If no what happens to Silence spell? It will be removed or will change to some kind of anti-concentration spell?
About material components will be turned into some trait? Or will be removed at all?
I don't remember where I listen about this or if it's a thing of my head but I remember to see somewhere that once currently the game already switches non-cost material components for gestures for most spellcasters that Paizo will just simple remove this.
But soon we will know everything. There's just a couple of months before the Players Core release and we may get more info before this.
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Well, they really should start giving comprehensive information on changes. It's not a secret anymore, it never was an actual normal product, and the books are finished as far as I understand. This 'drama' and guesswork are all a consequence of lack of information. And I don't think anyone needs this.Small improvements and cosmetic changes appear throughout,All the drama was based on forum posters' wishlists and anxieties, not anything Paizo staff said.
At the level of minutia people are discussing here, that's tantamount to saying "they should really just give us the PDFs of the book early."
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Well, they really should start giving comprehensive information on changes. It's not a secret anymore, it never was an actual normal product, and the books are finished as far as I understand. This 'drama' and guesswork are all a consequence of lack of information. And I don't think anyone needs this.Small improvements and cosmetic changes appear throughout,All the drama was based on forum posters' wishlists and anxieties, not anything Paizo staff said.
People also ignored what info was provided in favor of what they wanted such or such class to become, realistic expectations be damned.
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I don't mean to bum anyone out but if you wanted to give actual feedback on this (whether it would be considered or not) you'd need to invent a time machine and go back in time about 3 months if not more.
Printing books is not like hitting print on your inkjet at home. The prepress and proofing process is long, making sure the pages are laid out correctly, (offset printing at 8.5" x 11" is actually going to be 4 up - 8 pages to a sheet). Sheets need to be cut, colated, bound, etc - it's a whole deal.
Let alone that we're talking tens of thousands of books. In fact, depending on how exactly and who exactly does their printing, the books might be printed in one location and then bound/finished in another.
So yes, "I hope..." or "I wish..." would be the right way to preface things that you want to occur. Hell, by now they couldn't implement the changes you're asking for if they wanted to.
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Changing the name of things without altering or improving how they work is pretty much the textbook definition of scratching off the serial numbers... and I'm really not seeing much of anything other than the declared alteration of Refocusing and hints as how some Spells are being tweaked that lends itself to being evidence of a holistic approach rather than a defensive legal measure that they feel they have no choice but to make.
It is some of both.
Filling the new Monster Core book with only Paizo IP monsters was for legal defense.
Reworking Witch is a major change and errata that they were already wanting to do.
Removing alignment and replacing it with Anathema and Edicts is both.
There are plenty of smaller changes that they were already planning and that the Remaster reprinting seems like a fantastic time to put in.
And there are other minor removals of serial numbers that are being done for legal reasons.
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Filling the new Monster Core book with only Paizo IP monsters was for legal defense.
Reworking Witch is a major change and errata that they were already wanting to do.
Removing alignment and replacing it with Anathema and Edicts is both.
There are plenty of smaller changes that they were already planning and that the Remaster reprinting seems like a fantastic time to put in.
And there are other minor removals of serial numbers that are being done for legal reasons.
Were they interested in removing alignment even before the OGL fiasco? When did they say that?
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Were they interested in removing alignment even before the OGL fiasco? When did they say that?Filling the new Monster Core book with only Paizo IP monsters was for legal defense.
Reworking Witch is a major change and errata that they were already wanting to do.
Removing alignment and replacing it with Anathema and Edicts is both.
There are plenty of smaller changes that they were already planning and that the Remaster reprinting seems like a fantastic time to put in.
And there are other minor removals of serial numbers that are being done for legal reasons.
Yep. They mentioned being interested in doing it during the move from PF1 to PF2, but it felt like a bit too much to do alongside the rest. Paraphrasing.
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I had heard that too, of the alignment being dropped around the time PF2 was being designed. But in the end the idea was abandoned, along with several others, precisely to not make PF2 so different from PF1 and D&D so as not to cause too much strangeness to players already used to many of the mechanics.
But now, after the OGL crisis, things have turned around. Changes that move PF2 away from D&D are welcome in order to avoid lawsuits, even if this creates a greater need for players coming from D&D and PF1 to adapt.
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During the PF2 leadup there were a lot of potential changes that were dropped because they wanted to preserve some of the legacy of the family of games.
Now that Paizo has decided to have a clean break with the OGL, I imagine most of those arguments will cleave a different way. Like I fully expect the third edition of Pathfinder to merge Strength and Constitution and split Dexterity into something like Agility and Finesse; you'll probably end up seeing "Will Defense" key off Charisma instead of Wisdom too.
Probably most of the GMG variants were things that were proposed as changes during the PF2 Alpha.
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Likewise, many things we've seen since 2e was released proved that people's appetite for change that breaks from legacy is considerably greater than the designers anticipated, with many legacy changes they weren't certain would pass the approval (eg Druids turning to Primal instead of Divine) being embraced.
Its not likely that we would have dropped alignment without the OGL mess, but only because such a change likely would have been too great for an errata pass that didn't bear the future of the game's legal safety on its back.
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I wouldn't be surprised if abilities disappeared entirely, for that matter. A PC's level and proficiency already do a lot of the heavy lifting. Obviously ability mods aren't nothing in that equation, but I could see them disappearing from a potential future edition in favor of more of your numbers coming from your chosen class, and ancestries fully committing to granting conditional bonuses or extra powers to use.During the PF2 leadup there were a lot of potential changes that were dropped because they wanted to preserve some of the legacy of the family of games.
Now that Paizo has decided to have a clean break with the OGL, I imagine most of those arguments will cleave a different way. Like I fully expect the third edition of Pathfinder to merge Strength and Constitution and split Dexterity into something like Agility and Finesse; you'll probably end up seeing "Will Defense" key off Charisma instead of Wisdom too.
Probably most of the GMG variants were things that were proposed as changes during the PF2 Alpha.
I feel this would deprive us of an important toggle to ensure that not all, say, Dwarven Fighters are mostly the same.
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When it comes to spells pizo could just do what they already have.
Give spells traits: Phonetic, Gesture, and Object.
Phonetic: you have to be able to speak.
Gesture: you have to be able to move.
Object: you have to have an object or a gold cost.You then combine the words concentrate and manipulate into a universal trait.
[Notes]
This is not a perfect solution.Yet Paizo already made their decision and the traits is already set as Manipulation and Concentrate.
The doubt that still takes is that if spellcasters yet need to spell the spells? If yes this will be defined by classes or will be a general rule? If no what happens to Silence spell? It will be removed or will change to some kind of anti-concentration spell?
It makes a fair bit of difference to some spells. There are a handful of spells that are not verbal. It would be a shame if the mechanical difference were lost.
In general I'm in favour of the change they are doing. I would like it though if these small distinctions are maintained somehow.
I wouldn't be surprised if silence becomes anti-concentrate since from my quick searching on archives of nethys there appears to be no spells currently that are concentrate but not verbal component as for auditory I imagine that stays because it's a trait separate again from spell components
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I wouldn't be surprised if silence becomes anti-concentrate since from my quick searching on archives of nethys there appears to be no spells currently that are concentrate but not verbal component as for auditory I imagine that stays because it's a trait separate again from spell components
If such is the case, it should be anti-concentrate for spells only.
I wouldn't be surprised if silence becomes anti-concentrate since from my quick searching on archives of nethys there appears to be no spells currently that are concentrate but not verbal component as for auditory I imagine that stays because it's a trait separate again from spell componentsIf such is the case, it should be anti-concentrate for spells only.
Yeah I meant as in essentially replacing the last section of silence to be casting spells with the concentrate trait which the only downside I can see would it being slightly less obvious of an effect for new players coming in not realising/thinking of the verbal to concentrate change in the remaster
