Witches can just do it from level 1, but wizards can do the same thing at higher levels by using spells if built for it.
So, which hex are you having trouble with? The slumber hex is the most problematic, though there are enemy types who are simply immune to it.
Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
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If the party is protecting the witch, why is the game being ruined? I have seen a lot of martial characters that can take down most foes fairly quickly, are they ruining the game? Almost any class can be unbalanced if the GM is not familiar with the class.
Many of the witch’s hexes and even their spells are mind affecting. There are a lot of foes that are immune to mind affecting effects. Many witches struggle to deal with these types of foes. Almost all combat focused hexes do have the limitation that they only work once per day per creature. Hexes are also usually single target only, so having multiple foes prevents them from getting out of hand. Hexes also usually have a short range especially the combat hexes.
If the party is protecting the witch how is the game being ruined? If the other party members are actively protecting the witch while it takes down the foe that is good tactics. When the party works together to overcome challenges that is how the game is supposed to work. If you had a party that had one melee specialist so one character summoned up some extra creatures, the wizard cast haste and the bard used inspire courage to boost everyone that would that be ok? How is that any different than the party protecting the witch while it takes down the foe?
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Which Hexes are causing a problem?
and some Hex specify that they are "Mind affecting effects", so there is a slew of stuff they don't work on. Our party witch kept running into that.
The one time I saw a witch have what felt like a disproportionate effect on the party's success the combo was soothsayer, protective luck and cackle. Allowed the melee characters to just charge forward, neglecting tactical positioning and defense.
The one time I saw a witch have what felt like a disproportionate effect on the party's success the combo was soothsayer, protective luck and cackle. Allowed the melee characters to just charge forward, neglecting tactical positioning and defense.
The easy way to keep that Hex in check is not let the player abuse it. That hex is used when other hex it can effect is being used on someone else, and is effectively 'tied up' with keeping that one hex ready to go at a moment's notice. For me, that means it can only be used on one target at a time and you can't load your whole party up with it. Otherwise, the text "The hex is wasted if it is not triggered within 24 hours." is meaningless and should not have been added.
If that is not clear enough, let me explain. The entire point of the Soothsayer hex is to maintain the effect of one other hex until it is needed, and then the duration starts ticking like normal. While this is going on, the Soothsayer Hex is 'in use' and not available to be used again until the Hex it is maintaining is activated. This explains why the above mentioned text was included, since never triggering the Soothsayer Hex would indeed 'waste' the use of it.
Since this isn't the rules forum, I'm not bothered if people disagree with me on the matter nor do I care to defend my stance on it.
Looking over cackle it only works on a hex that the target is under. You cannot use cackle on a hex unless it has already started. Soothsayer states the hex begins when the triggering action occurs. So, you cannot pump up the duration on a hex modified by soothsayer before it is triggered. You could use cackle after the protective luck has triggered, but you are only going to be able to do that on one target and that uses up your move action for your turn during the combat.
It is the GM’s responsibility to look at these types of things and adjust them if they are creating problems. If that takes a house rule, so be it.
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Cackle effects all that hear it within 30ft, if they have a specific hex it can effect on them. I'm not sure anyone was saying that Soothsayer is effected by Cackle.
I feel like we are getting really off topic, but it's more because of how reliable the combo is. Protective luck has no limits per day. And Soothsayer doesn't seem to have a limit per day either. So, anytime your teammate gets attacked, protective luck gets triggered, and this could happen to the entire party at the same time, possibly round 1. From that point you just have to use cackle to keep it up for most of the rest of the combat. When the combat is over, you can just set it up to work for the next combat.
It's not the most broken combo in the game, but it's pretty powerful for something that doesn't cost many actions.
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This forum really needs a "lol, lmao" reaction.
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That would be feeding the trolls. And unless you are raising a troll army for your BBEG, that isn't advisable.
The one time I saw a witch have what felt like a disproportionate effect on the party's success the combo was soothsayer, protective luck and cackle. Allowed the melee characters to just charge forward, neglecting tactical positioning and defense.
From what I am reading, Protective Luck is not a viable target for Soothsayer..
From what I am reading, Protective Luck is not a viable target for Soothsayer..
It is, the text is in Protective Luck:
Protective Luck (Su) : The witch can cause fate to twist so that it benefits a creature within 30 feet for 1 round. Whenever that creature is targeted by an effect that requires an attack roll, including weapon attacks, the attacker must roll twice and take the worse result. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. A witch cannot use this ability on herself. Hexes that affect the fortune hex, such as cackle, also affect protective luck.
And then you look at Soothsayer and it says it affects Fortune/etc.
The reason Protective Luck works so well with Soothsayer is because both hexes have no limit on how many times they can be used per day and since Protective Luck can be cast on allies it can easily be cast before every combat.
I think one of the reasons Witches seem so unbalanced to GMs is because it puts the onus on the GM.
A Bard may have the same overall impact on a combat, but almost all the number crunching happens on the players' side of the table. A Witch on the other hand generally creates work for the GM with almost every action. Some of their hexes like the Healing and Fortune hex are completely player-centric, but these tend to be very limited in their use due to the 1/day/ally clauses. Offensive hexes with that same clause still allow the Witch to use those hexes every round of every combat, and each round requires the GM to recalculate their stat-blocks. Not only does this create a little more work for the GM, but it puts the effects of those hexes right in the GM's focus.
This is a bit circumstantial, but I made a Hexcrafter Magus as a backup character for our Iron Gods game, and the GM decided to run our backup characters through a couple of the side-quests. I wanted to use debuffs, so I went with an unarmed build that used Misfortune plus Hex-Strike, and used Protective Luck plus Soothsayer. I chose these hexes partly because this was the least amount of extra work for the GM that I could think of . Not only did this almost completely negate any extra work for the GM rewriting stat-blocks, but these two hexes don't stack with one another . Also worth noting that I didn't take the Cackle hex, because as a Magus I want my full attack actions.
The GM basically flipped the table on me. Despite the fact that Protective Luck was sometimes the only thing I was able to contribute to the combat, the GM thought my character was the one causing all the problems because it's so obvious from the GM's perspective when these hexes make the difference between a success and a failure. Raising an ally's AC and debuffing an enemy's attack modifiers may have the same end result, but one of those things is far more visible to the GM.
First time I'm GMing someone with a Witch and they're just pulling these crazy hex combos that can severely debilitate the enemy team.
Name them please. Almost all offensive hexes are single target, are negated with a save, and have effects surpassed by spells of the same level.
The slumber hex is the most problematic, though there are enemy types who are simply immune to it.
The real counter to Slumber is allies of the target waking it up (which takes a mere standard action). Similarly, Ice Tomb is easy to destroy. You don't need to have immune enemies, you just need to have some mooks around.
That hex is used when other hex it can effect is being used on someone else, and is effectively 'tied up' with keeping that one hex ready to go at a moment's notice. For me, that means it can only be used on one target at a time and you can't load your whole party up with it.
There is absolutely no text that says or indicates this. It's a pure fabrication on your part.
Otherwise, the text "The hex is wasted if it is not triggered within 24 hours." is meaningless and should not have been added.
Not only is this not a sound argument, as there's tons of unnecessary text, what you said makes absolutely no sense. If the hex isn't triggered within 24h, the action of putting in onto the ally was a waste. There, the sentence is explained, and thus your entire argument is broken.
The entire point of the Soothsayer hex is to maintain the effect of one other hex until it is needed, and then the duration starts ticking like normal. While this is going on, the Soothsayer Hex is 'in use' and not available to be used again until the Hex it is maintaining is activated.
No, the entire point of the hex is to delay when the hex effect starts working. It literally says so: "she can choose to delay the effect." Your 'argument' is like saying that you can't cast while Delayed Blast Fireball is active, because you were maintaining the spell.
Since this isn't the rules forum, I'm not bothered if people disagree with me on the matter nor do I care to defend my stance on it.
Nice way of saying "I know I can't defend my garbage claim, so I'll stick my finger in my ears and not listen to arguments".
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Gotta love that the further away from 1e we get the more often we see the same old arguments dragged back out with even more vitriol. I'm almost tempted to take some bets on when we'll see 'Fighters suck' or 'Cavalier Charge OP' again.
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Gotta love that the further away from 1e we get the more often we see the same old arguments dragged back out with even more vitriol. I'm almost tempted to take some bets on when we'll see 'Fighters suck' or 'Cavalier Charge OP' again.
Wait until the OP runs their first game with a full caster who maxed their DC and has Sacred Geometry and a Persistent Spell rod.
Or somebody with a Shatter Defenses "everybody panic" build.
Or a Cavern Druid with Vital Strike feat line.
Or, you know, any proper PF1 cheese that got discussed to death over the last 13 years but the OP is only now slowly discovering its existence :D
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the best way to figure how to uncheese a cheese player's character is to mirror it and learn how the players deal with it.
also as Derklord pointed out, most witch's hex are not that hard to deal with even without going to unreasonable lengths. (my players were really upset when a Koblod just went over to his sleeping shaman and bumped him on the head saying 'wake up, no nappy time!')
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the best way to figure how to uncheese a cheese player's character is to mirror it and learn how the players deal with it.
That's a bad idea, because it will only escalate the situation and make PCs feel like the GM is playing against them rather than with them, and make PCs that didn't pick such a disruptive build get punished for what the other guy did.
The best way to deal with cheese is to sit down with the player and explain that their build, while legal etc. RAW etc, is disrupting the game, and maybe they could save it for another day and freely respec their character into something that doesn't blow up the game as much.
That or move to a game that doesn't suffer from such wild imbalances.
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I still don't know what the specific combo the OP is having a problem with.
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Their core complaint is that witches are powerful and their hexes should be limited to once a day per creature... when most of them already are.
The O.P. hasn’t participated in this thread since the first post. Maybe just a garden troll.
Nice way of saying "I know I can't defend my garbage claim, so I'll stick my finger in my ears and not listen to arguments".
Its nice to know that despite my clear statement on the matter, you couldn't restrain yourself from replying about the matter like the other posters did. It is attitudes like this that make me less inclined to even want to have the conversation involved to prove why (I believe) my interpretation is correct. I'll repeat, this isn't the rules forum. If you want to argue about it, go to the rules forum. The lack of good faith on your part makes it quite likely I'll avoid the thread regardless. Maybe next time, try making less assumptions and asking (politely) for more clarification.
If the hex isn't triggered within 24h, the action of putting in onto the ally was a waste. There, the sentence is explained, and thus your entire argument is broken.
The sentence says the HEX is wasted, not the action used to activate the hex. No rewording or shifting around the words in the sentence until it says something you like is necessary. What that implies is left to your own reasoning skills.
RAW aside, what then should a GM's answer be to un-break soothsayer + protective luck? Is the breaking point soothsayer? Or is it that protective luck doesn't have the standard 24-hour cooldown that we expect from fortune, misfortune, etc.?
"Ask the witch player to choose a different hex" and "don't use attack rolls" are also two possible, if unsatisfying, answers without house rules.
I don't think that it's "that" broken. The roll-twice mechanic gives a benefit equivalent to somewhere between +1 and +5 to your AC depending on how hard you are to hit. That's great if you are regularly fighting larger groups of enemies, but if you are fighting one or two dangerous creatures, sleep is still way more disruptive while only using one hex.
And of course, the witch doesn't benefit from protective luck. Meanwhile, they are cackling madly and wearing no armor, drawing the attacks of any non-mindless enemies.
RAW aside, what then should a GM's answer be to un-break soothsayer + protective luck? Is the breaking point soothsayer? Or is it that protective luck doesn't have the standard 24-hour cooldown that we expect from fortune, misfortune, etc.?
Prevent the Witch from cackling in order to prolong the effect. That can take a number of different forms, my favorite being making them realize that remaining within 30ft of their target is suboptimal for their continued survival. If they cannot cackle, and their effects expire, it will take a slew of additional standard actions to renew the effects on everyone.
Another option is to have some minions that know the Fortune Hex and Cackle, and simply negate the disadvantages imposed by Protective Luck. Should the players use that technique often enough, their enemies will get word of it and adapt to their tactics.
two or three minions using Aid Another for their boss's attacks could probably overcome the Protective Luck
Alternatively Troops are one of my favourite things
All protective luck does is reduce the chance of the opponents attack roll missing. If you increase chance to hit of the character attacking the target of the hex it reduces the power of the hex. How effective the hex is, is also dependent on the attackers. If the attackers don’t have a good chance to hit the target of the hex, the hex is very powerful. If on the other hand the attackers have a very high chance of hitting it is not as effective. An additional +5 on the attack roll will put the chance of success about the same as it would be without the target being protected by the hex.
The one thing that the hex is good at is reducing the chance of a critical hit. Having to roll twice decreases the chance of a critical much more than it does the chance to hit. A 15-20 threat range gives you a 30% chance of threatening a critical. Rolling twice reduces that to about a 9% chance. You still have to confirm the critical, but if you don’t threaten you cannot confirm.
With fortune and misfortune, the target chooses which roll they can reroll, but it only works once per round. You also have to make the choice before you roll. So, they could choose to reroll the conformation roll, but then they would not be able to reroll the attack roll. The conformation roll is a separate attack roll even if it is using the same modifiers as the attack roll.
With fortuneand misfortune,the target chooses which roll they can reroll, but it only works once per round. You also have to make the choice before you roll. So, they could choose to reroll the conformation roll, but then they would not be able to reroll the attack roll. The conformation roll is a separate attack roll even if it is using the same modifiers as the attack roll.
Just clarifying that this is only true for Fortune. Misfortune forces you to roll twice on all affected rolls.
Fortune (Su) (): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.
Misfortune (Su) (): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
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With fortuneand misfortune,the target chooses which roll they can reroll, but it only works once per round. You also have to make the choice before you roll. So, they could choose to reroll the conformation roll, but then they would not be able to reroll the attack roll. The conformation roll is a separate attack roll even if it is using the same modifiers as the attack roll.Just clarifying that this is only true for Fortune. Misfortune forces you to roll twice on all affected rolls.
Fortune (Su) (): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.
Misfortune (Su) (): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Good catch, my mistake.
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To the OP, I apologize that this thread is getting derailed due to stuff.
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It's a nice sentiment, and I appreciate it, but I decided years ago that when an OP posts an "aggressive" (??) question kinda like this, and then never shows up again in the Thread at all -- I don't take the OP seriously. So like, when I read the OP I was ready to try to be helpful with a post, then saw that the OP doesn't really care. So I was done with it.
YMMV
I imagine the OP just didn't like that almost no one agreed with him. He has a posting history, so it's not like it's a complete troll account. No way to know if he's been reading the thread though.
It's not that witch isn't strong. It's just that the strength is basically on pare with other full casters. The wizard/arcanist is way harder to deal with as a GM because you never know what crazy spell combo they are bringing to the table. Most witches do the same shenanigans every time.
It's a nice sentiment, and I appreciate it, but I decided years ago that when an OP posts an "aggressive" (??) question kinda like this, and then never shows up again in the Thread at all -- I don't take the OP seriously. So like, when I read the OP I was ready to try to be helpful with a post, then saw that the OP doesn't really care. So I was done with it.
YMMV
I understand the feeling. I had to figuratively bite my tongue and restrain myself from replying in a snarky manner because that just isn't productive or helpful to anyone that might see the thread in the future.
I imagine the OP just didn't like that almost no one agreed with him. He has a posting history, so it's not like it's a complete troll account. No way to know if he's been reading the thread though.
Yeah. I didn't want to simply say that their concerns were addressed years ago and no changes needed to be made, and instead thought I'd try an be helpful with addressing their real issue: how to deal with it.
My suggestion to most people who aren't familiar with everything a class can do is to simply limit sources until they are comfortable enough with integrating it into their games. For example, I don't allow 3rd party content in my games except with extremely rare exceptions.
As a GM I also see a big difference between something like protective luck/cackle/soothsayer and evil eye, slumber, scythe. Assume both combos are "unbalanced" and "trivializing encounters" at the table. In the first case the other players are being allowed to take down the enemy with impunity. In the second case the other players are being allowed to protect the witch and clean up the leftovers. Any guesses which one is more fun for the other players?
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Most witches do the same shenanigans every time.
I suppose that is part of the OP problem. You notice how powerful is something when you see it used to resolve every problem.
The other part is that he mentioned "insane" combos, but we don't know if the combos are really powerful or instead, they are misread/misinterpreted rules. Some players have a tendency to read an ability and then expand on how it works, making it more powerful.