I recently joined a campaign on roll20 and decided to take a thaumaturge. The GM allowed it, although none of us was very familiar with the class. All other players took core or APG classes like a rogue, a ranger, a wizard and a cleric.
We're currently lvl 8, I didn't take any specific shenanigans (I'm human, no multiclass, no busted feat interaction) but the GM feels that this class is "too powerful" and asks me if I can change it so as not to create an imbalance with other players.
The question here is not whether that's good GMing and whether I should comply or leave the campaign altogether, but whether he's right in his assessment of the class, or if we didn't take things into account.
I took the amulet implement at lvl 1, the regalia at lvl 5 and amulet adept at lvl 7. My feats are Diverse Lore, Scroll Thaumaturgy, Talisman Esoterica, Scroll Esoterica and Elaborate talisman esoterica. Pretty standard stuff, I didn't even go the familiar route and it could be more optimized.
1) Attacking
At level 8, if I succeed at my EV check (which is pretty easy since a standard DC is 24 and I have +18 on the roll), I can now either exploit the weakness of any monster (which was insane in some encounters) or in the worst case create my own weakness 6.
This means my +1 striking longsword hits for 2d8+4(str)+4(IE)+6(weakness)+2(weapon spe), so 2d8+16 average 25.
That's more than the rogue on flat-footed target (he does 4d6+6 so average 20) and the precision ranger on his hunted target (he does 2d6+6+1d8 average 17 and usually fires twice but second shot has lower chance to hit).
2) Being attacked
All other characters are made of paper, so I'm the designated tank. With the amulet, I can soak 10 damage from first hit, then get a lingering resist 5 from same damage type. Since most monsters come in pack, that often is a flat DR5.
When I'm not the one attacked, I can act as a Champion with my reaction, and getting a lingering resist is arguably as good as getting an extra hit in when you're a paladin.
I'm not level 9 yet but the amulet will also let me raise shield if needed (only against my target, but with the added bonus of bolstering saves). Talking about saves, I'm great here as well with master will save and expert in the two others.
3) Out of combat
This is where the GM gets pissed. It's ok for my thaumaturge to be good at fighting, lots of characters are. But he's also the uncontested king of OOC actions, miles ahead of everyone else.
- He's the party face and is better at it than any other class in the game, thanks to the regalia bonus.
- He's also the party egghead, and is better at it than any other class in the game, thanks to Diverse Lore. This means I'm master at every recall knowledge check (using CHA) and master - 2 (so expert) at EVERY DAMN KNOWLEDGE IN THE GAME. Sure, the wizard has 2 more in Arcana than me, but I'm the best at every other skill. I mean, which other class can both be the face and the intellectual ?
- He can use ANY scroll with his thaumaturgy DC, a thing every caster would kill for. He also gets a 1st level and 2nd level scroll from ANY tradition that he can change EVERYDAY. His talismans are also crazy powerful considering they're free (you can get feather fall, fortitude bonuses, free grapple and so many others).
Anyway, my DM feels no class should be a great DPS AND a great tank AND the best party face AND the best knowledge character AND get free scrolls and talismans.
So, what can I answer him ? Is he right ? I do feel powerful, and I don't want to overshadow everybody.
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The class is okay, decent ish damage, okay but below average defenses, but it gets some utility and to be a pretty decent skill monkey.
Definitely fun, but nothing especially amazing to write home about.
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As Squiggit said
I have the feeling then rather that you are too strong the others in your party might operate below their potential
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Ooooh, now I see where we got it wrong. We thought diverse lore made it so esoteric lore could replace occultist/arcana/nature/religion skills, when it's just for the purpose of recalling knowledge.
Well, that's a really big difference and it'll make me less likely to step on the wizard's toes.
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Yeah since thaumaturge doesn't have a big incentive to boost wisdom or intelligence, you're not all that great at the magic skills. Which is relevant when you want to get rid of a haunt for example.
I think it's not an unbalanced class, but it has things that look big. It's easy to shock people with your single-hit damage. But you're somewhat bad at getting in multiple hits. And people look at the damage IF you hit, but you often lag behind on to-hit bonus due to not having str/dex as key stat. Likewise, the big hit draws attention, not the amount of actions it took to set up.
You mention that "the rest of the party is made of paper", but isn't that on them? Thaumaturge gets the same HP per level as a rogue, and less than the ranger. They all have kinda similar quality armor class. Saving throws aren't that different either, ranger and rogue might actually be better because of slightly better choice of key stat. And they don't get punished as much for using a shield for AC as you do.
As for being the Face - I don't think you're necessarily better at it than a rogue would be if the rogue wanted to be. If the rogue wants to be, they'll have so many more skill increases that they'll easily compensate for not having regalia. Going charisma/intimidate oriented is a decently strong option as rogue, but you have many other options (wisdom/medicine for example). As thaumaturge you're a bit more type-cast into the face role because your class heavily leans on charisma.
The wizard is a bit worse off but the problem there is that the skill options for using intelligence are just a bit meh. Compared to the skill feats for charisma (bon mot, intimidating glare, terrified retreat, scare to death...) what is there to actually do with intelligence? But that's hardly the fault of the thaumaturge.
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IMO the Thaumaturge is supposed to be able to be good (and sometimes great) at anything, but not the best. The only thing they are best at is Recall Knowledge and will saves. If you are besting any player at their "thing", they are not playing to their class's strengths. The Rogue should easily beat you on skills unless you invest in the tome implement (then you'll get close). The Ranger should be sturdier and hit more frequently. The Wizard should always have more spells per day and stronger ones at that. Same with Cleric. The only one you might actually be stepping on the toes of is the Ranger purely due to both having very similar combat routines (focus single target and attack).
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If your GM thinks this is strong, he should see a fighter mc'ed into champion or barbarian. Thaumaturge is the strongest non-core class, but any fighter or bard will probably out-class it. Your damage bonus doesn't compare to a 2hf fighter, your skills should only exceed the rogue at recall knowledge. Scroll use shouldn't matter much in a party with both a wizard and a cleric.
Also, depending on how your GM treats Lore DC reductions then you're probably not beating a specialist even at Recall Knowledge with Diverse Lore. The -2 penalty will put you behind a wizard who is fully invested in arcana or occultism or a cleric fully invested in religion or nature. Plus those other classes can get item bonuses.
It also sounds like your ranger is doing something wrong. Your post implies they are using a shortbow, but they should only get half their strength bonus to damage. And in that case they should expect to have lower damage as a ranged character. If they are wielding d6 weapons in melee I wonder why they didn't go flurry instead of precision. Also worth noting the ranger can give you a run for your money on combat knowledge checks by getting Master Monster Hunter in a couple levels.
Overall it sounds like you likely applied more system mastery to your build than the rest of your party. The Thaumaturge has a pretty low floor and you picked largely optimal choices for it, especially to act as a tank... But it sounds like the rest of your party is just really unfocused.
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The Thaumaturge is also fairly dependent on campaign style for how powerful it is.
Personal anathema is a mild damage boost. But being able to exploit weakness can sometimes be huge. So the value of exploit weakness can vary a lot with what monsters you're facing. It sounds like this may be part of the issue.
The other big issue is the action economy. When you're facing only one or two opponents the thaumaturge does very well. But when you're facing a lot of opponents he does MUCH worse. His amulet reaction comes up far less often, lots of actions have to be spent to continually exploit weakness, etc.
That all said, the Thaumaturge is a VERY solid class. It is solid in combat had has huge out of combat versatility (covering charisma checks and all knowledge checks). It is well designed and does what it is intended to do very well. But it shouldn't be overpowering the game in general
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as a sidenote, keep in mind that weakness damage doesn't crit, so it isn't exactly correct to add it as base damage for calculations.
I thought any damage not due to critical was doubled. And I did not find anything on AoN that was saying weakness damage was an exception to the rule.
Where did you find that it is not doubled on a crit ?
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as a sidenote, keep in mind that weakness damage doesn't crit, so it isn't exactly correct to add it as base damage for calculations.
I thought any damage not due to critical was doubled. And I did not find anything on AoN that was saying weakness damage was an exception to the rule.
Where did you find that it is not doubled on a crit ?
Critical doubling occurs in step 1. Weakness occurs in step 3.
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as a sidenote, keep in mind that weakness damage doesn't crit, so it isn't exactly correct to add it as base damage for calculations.
I thought any damage not due to critical was doubled. And I did not find anything on AoN that was saying weakness damage was an exception to the rule.
Where did you find that it is not doubled on a crit ?
Critical doubling occurs in step 1. Weakness occurs in step 3.
Many thanks for that. I think we were handling weaknesses and resistances the wrong way then.
I recently joined a campaign on roll20 and decided to take a thaumaturge. The GM allowed it, although none of us was very familiar with the class. All other players took core or APG classes like a rogue, a ranger, a wizard and a cleric.
We're currently lvl 8, I didn't take any specific shenanigans (I'm human, no multiclass, no busted feat interaction) but the GM feels that this class is "too powerful" and asks me if I can change it so as not to create an imbalance with other players.
The question here is not whether that's good GMing and whether I should comply or leave the campaign altogether, but whether he's right in his assessment of the class, or if we didn't take things into account.
I took the amulet implement at lvl 1, the regalia at lvl 5 and amulet adept at lvl 7. My feats are Diverse Lore, Scroll Thaumaturgy, Talisman Esoterica, Scroll Esoterica and Elaborate talisman esoterica. Pretty standard stuff, I didn't even go the familiar route and it could be more optimized.
1) Attacking
At level 8, if I succeed at my EV check (which is pretty easy since a standard DC is 24 and I have +18 on the roll), I can now either exploit the weakness of any monster (which was insane in some encounters) or in the worst case create my own weakness 6.
This means my +1 striking longsword hits for 2d8+4(str)+4(IE)+6(weakness)+2(weapon spe), so 2d8+16 average 25.
That's more than the rogue on flat-footed target (he does 4d6+6 so average 20) and the precision ranger on his hunted target (he does 2d6+6+1d8 average 17 and usually fires twice but second shot has lower chance to hit).
2) Being attacked
All other characters are made of paper, so I'm the designated tank. With the amulet, I can soak 10 damage from first hit, then get a lingering resist 5 from same damage type. Since most monsters come in pack, that often is a flat DR5.
When I'm not the one attacked, I can act as a Champion with my reaction, and getting a lingering resist is arguably as good as getting an extra hit in when you're a paladin.
I'm not level 9 yet but the amulet will also let me raise shield if needed (only against my target, but with the added bonus of bolstering saves). Talking about saves, I'm great here as well with master will save and expert in the two others.
3) Out of combat
This is where the GM gets pissed. It's ok for my thaumaturge to be good at fighting, lots of characters are. But he's also the uncontested king of OOC actions, miles ahead of everyone else.
- He's the party face and is better at it than any other class in the game, thanks to the regalia bonus.
- He's also the party egghead, and is better at it than any other class in the game, thanks to Diverse Lore. This means I'm master at every recall knowledge check (using CHA) and master - 2 (so expert) at EVERY DAMN KNOWLEDGE IN THE GAME. Sure, the wizard has 2 more in Arcana than me, but I'm the best at every other skill. I mean, which other class can both be the face and the intellectual ?
- He can use ANY scroll with his thaumaturgy DC, a thing every caster would kill for. He also gets a 1st level and 2nd level scroll from ANY tradition that he can change EVERYDAY. His talismans are also crazy powerful considering they're free (you can get feather fall, fortitude bonuses, free grapple and so many others).Anyway, my DM feels no class should be a great DPS AND a great tank AND the best party face AND the best knowledge character AND get free scrolls and talismans.
So, what can I answer him ? Is he right ? I do feel powerful, and I don't want to overshadow everybody.
The Thaumaturge feels like it has a lot of strong stuff to it, but it does have its issues. For starters, they are far more action-intensive compared to most other martials (yes, even Magi, probably on par with Swashbuckler, depending). Other classes usually don't have that issue, so they can strike multiple times in a round, or utilize additional actions for other things that the Thaumaturge might not be able to do. Furthermore, they are behind in accuracy on a relative scale by nature of not having an 18 in Strength starting out and being behind on boosts by proxy. It just so happens you are playing in the levels where they likely have a 19 in Strength/Dexterity, which gives the same modifiers as you now having 18 Strength, so it doesn't feel like it yet. But as you gain levels, it will shift and change to the point that you will be a point or two behind them, which makes significant difference.
Given that the Thaumaturge is a class specifically designed to exploit enemy weaknesses, this means that they will shine in any fight that has enemy weaknesses, but also that they won't be as effective in fights where enemies have resistances (since they can't really ignore them with their personal antithesis benefit). However, the Thaumaturge must Exploit every target it comes across (unless you take feats like Shared Weakness or whatever it's called, which only works for same-type creatures), otherwise it loses out on a lot of its targeted Esoterica abilities (such as the Bell reaction) and from its personal antithesis benefits (which serve more as a damage boost than anything). It also doesn't provide as much benefit if you are already triggering enemy weaknesses from simply using the gear you possess, though if you can still do so while having other benefits (such as a Mithril weapon reducing weight but still counting as Cold Iron for weakness), it's still useful.
Their unique skill is mostly useful for identify monsters via Recall Knowledge; you will likely need feats to use it for other purposes, and not everything that is a skill test will boil down to Recall Knowledge. Meaning if you need to perform an Arcane check to fiddle with runes on a wall to activate a door, for example, the unique skill would not apply.
The other big benefit is that the Thaumaturge can be built in all kinds of ways, as they are quite a versatile-designed martial; they can be tanky, they can be support-y, they can be damage-y, they can be skill-oriented, etc. As they gain levels, they will have more versatility in this sort of thing, but they will also cement the things they will be great at by nature of how their implements evolve (and how skill increases/proficiencies improve).
I will say that the Thaumaturge was one of the few martial classes I have enjoyed building with, even if some options I thought were pretty meh or weak, and also that they have some glaring design flaws, meaning they won't outpace classes like Fighters in damage/accuracy or combat prowess, or Rogues in skills, or Wizards in raw spell power. But being a "build-a-martial" type class is pretty cool in and of itself, especially when it can do those things quite admirably, and has good unique things in its kit.
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- He's also the party egghead, and is better at it than any other class in the game, thanks to Diverse Lore. This means I'm master at every recall knowledge check (using CHA) and master - 2 (so expert) at EVERY DAMN KNOWLEDGE IN THE GAME. Sure, the wizard has 2 more in Arcana than me, but I'm the best at every other skill. I mean, which other class can both be the face and the intellectual ?
Quick reminder than Recall Knowledge is not the only action within the family of "knowing stuff" skills.
Specifically Decipher Writing (admittedly somewhat niche) and Identify Magic are NOT Recall Knowledge, which means you cannot use Esoteric Lore to use those actions/activities.So you could easily end up in a situation like this:
Thaumaturge- "Wow, this is the unique blade Serithtial, used to slay the dread dragon Kazavon!"
Party Member: "Awesome! What are its powers?"
Thaumaturge- "No idea." ['cause only trained in Religion so unable to Identify Magic on the unique level 23 item]
I wanted to offer up a differing perspective on the class. Perhaps it will help your GM have a broader view of the class.
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Let's see…
⠀➤ AC worse than fighter/champ; can't use shields other than buckler
⠀➤ Melee damage worse than fighter/barb (unless there's a strong weakness), limited to 1-hand weapons
⠀➤ Action economy tax with Exploit (without the feat you need to re-up personal antithesis whenever enemies aren't weak)
⠀➤ Knowledge better than most but this overall helps the whole team too so I don't really see an issue here
⠀➤ AOO magnet (Exploit has the Manipulate trait)
Seem fine to me.
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Unless we're fighting especially tough enemies, I've found that my DPS often goes up if I don't use Exploit Vulnerability. The action cost, considering it's per enemy, is just too high--particularly at low levels or against numerous weak enemies. Barbarians, fighters, and rogues inevitably kill them off before I can benefit from my Exploit Vulnerability.
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Thaumaturges are really keen against solo enemies. Solo bosses are notorious for being uncommon/rare/unique which frustrates Recall Knowledge, but Exploit Vulnerability does at least something even on a failure, and isn't hindered by rarity.
But crowds of enemies, not so awesome. You still have Exploit Vulnerability, but you need a feat (Sympathetic Vulnerabilities) to be efficient against them. And even then, it's only for damage. Your primary target is still your ONLY target as far as most other abilities are concerned (amulet, weapon reaction..)
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limited to 1-hand weapons
Well, sort of. They are limited to 1h weapons, but then they have a class feature that effectively bumps them up to 2h quality. IE makes a thaumaturge's longsword function similarly to a greatsword (3-10 instead of 1-12, averages out to the same but there is some variation there), and a short sword better than any 2h finesse option.
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I feel like we just had the OP say "My character is overshadowing everyone else at the table" and a bunch of people replied "No it isn't". It's not what everyone said, but still ...
Ok, so:
Offence: At levels 1-4, 10-14 and 20 you will be -1 to hit behind most Martials. This is ... it's a bigger deal than it would have been in other editions, but it's not That big of a deal. Specifically at level 8, it's not a problem at all. Yes you are a Martial character. For damage you are limited to 1-handed weapons, but you get a damage boost that essentially puts your 1d8 Longsword on par with a 1d12 weapon, so your damage will be good as well. Some classes like the Barbarian have a damage bonus but then so do you, the main difference is that your damage doesn't multiply on a crit. Thaumaturges are good damage dealers.
Solution: As others have said, weakness damage isn't multiplied on a crit so make sure you're doing this right. Also you do need to set this up, so action economy will hurt you more than most classes. Make sure you're spending the correct actions to exploit vulnerability, and that if you're not using it you aren't forgetting to remove the damage from your calculations. Also note that Thaumaturges don't get the critical specialization effects for their weapons, so not only does your Exploit Vulnerability not multiply, you also don't apply conditions like Flat Footed or Prone to your targets on a crit. Most Martial characters should have critical specialization by now.
Defence: Your AC is low, and your HP is low, but you essentially have the Shield Block reaction from your Amulet. This shield block also comes with a lingering damageresistance, making it even better vs enemies who attack multiple times. Between the Pros and the Cons this probably puts you on-par with other fragile-ish Martials like the Rogue.
Solution: This might just be some luck if you aren't being hit much. Maybe try using your reaction to protect other PCs more often? You'll still be helping negate damage, but people might not see you as the tank so much. Also this ability can only be used agsinst the target of your Exploit Vulnerability, so make sure you haven't been inadvertently giving yourself protection when you shouldn't. Once again, action economy is going to hit you harder than most - it's the same action to prepare both your offensive and defensive powers, but you have to renew it on every target, so be sure you're doing this correctly.
Social Skills: A Thaumaturge with a Regalia Implement should be the undisputed king of social skills. Well maybe not undisputed, but unless someone else is investing heavily into this area you should be the best.
Solution: I don't think this one really needs a solution, this is your niche.
Knowledge checks: As others have said Diverse Lore only works with Recall Knowledge checks, not all uses of the skill. Also note that the in-combat use only ever gives you a regular success on Recall Knowledge, even if you rolled a critical success on the check.
Solution: I actually do think Diverse lore is somewhat poorly designed. Not only do you essentially get free Master proficiency on all recall knowledge checks and you get to use your primary stat. The only people who will ever have higher bonuses are extremely specialized characters, and even then they'll only have +2 compared to your checks. Maybe retrain this skill into something else so that you don't overshadow other PCs in their own sphere of specialization.
Miscelaneous Utility: Between your Regalia, your Talismans, your Scrolls and any other skills you have you likely are rpoviding more utility than most. This class is good at utility.
Solution: Once again make sure your action economy is correct. You have to spend an action to pull out a scroll before using it . Talismans also take actions, some are free actions but some are not, double check this. Affixing a Talisman to an item takes 10 minutes, each Talisman can only he affixed to a single item, and each Item can only hold 1 Talisman. Final word on Talismans, if people think you're OP, just hand them out to other PCs atthe beginning of the day and they can feel badass when they get to use them - you're still helping the team and being the best but the focus isn't on you. Same can be said for free scrolls really. One last note: You CAN swap Implements as a free action as part of using that Implement, and this DOES mean that you can be holding your Regalia and free-swap to your Amulet as part of the Reaction. However since the Regalia doesn't have any actions associated with it you CAN'T swap back to the Regalia without spending the actions . I don't know if this has come up, but it's another thing worth checking. Personally I believe the Intensify Vulnerability action should work to swap back, but I have seen this debated - also the Regalia's Intensify isn't exactly spectacular , so it's probably going to come up less often than your Amulet.
Conclusion I guess: The Thaumaturge IS a strong class, but it probably shouldn't be the absolute strongest in most of these areas. It sounds like part of this is just that the other players didn't optimise as well as you , but however it's happened you've become the "Star" of the show. My advice would be to simply try to use your abilities to help others succeed and make double sure you're spending the correct actions to get everything working. Also swapping out Diverse Lore for something else - it's jot actually that powerful but it does kind-of step into other PC's niches. Doing these things should at least take the spotlight off you, and since the spotlight is the problem that should solve most of the dispute.
I've been kicked out of a group because of all the other class' toes my heavy armor thaumaturge stepped on.
The perception that they are better is certainly a prevalent one, sadly.
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I've been kicked out of a group because of all the other class' toes my heavy armor thaumaturge stepped on.
The perception that they are better is certainly a prevalent one, sadly.
Taking this at face value, that is a problem with the group not the class. Sounds like they ultimately did you a favor.
d)action economy
while rogue spends nothing usually to setup the flatfooted apart from stuff that he would already be doing (striding next to his target), you have the overhead of spending an action against each target. Which is usually a routine of "study-stride-swing" meaning 1 attack. Vs a rogue "striding-sneak-sneak" which is two attacks.
A rogue could also grab twin feint and tumble behind. That way, they either stride-sneak-sneak when they flank, or they tumble-sneak-sneak when they are going it alone. It also works for a two action combo when you ahve to do other things.
While this requires a specific build... it is something you can do by level 2. Or level 1 if you are human and just want it over with. This also provides a stable gameplan for melee. It is good as a "hand a new player a level 1 character sheet" build.
Sidenote- the rogue isn't face or int ID? Is it str based?
I've been kicked out of a group because of all the other class' toes my heavy armor thaumaturge stepped on.
The perception that they are better is certainly a prevalent one, sadly.
It's interesting. Most posters in this discussion consider that the feeling of a Thaumaturge being too strong is wrong. But maybe there's really something with the Thaumaturge.
I must admit I don't know the class well but when looking at the damage combined of both Implement's Empowerment and Exploit Vulnerability, the Thaumaturge actually gets a higher damage bonus than a raging Giant Barbarian. And if I look at Weapon Implement, it gets a +2 status bonus to attack at level 9+, that's a crazy bonus. With a Longsword it actually beats a Greatsword Fighter in damage.
Then, you have Esoteric Lore + Diverse Lore (so strong it's nearly a tax feat) that makes you crazy good at recalling knowledge without having neither high Intelligence nor Wisdom.
Sorry, but I definitely see why some people are screaming about the Thaumaturge. It seems to step on a lot of toes. I'm even wondering if it's not too strong as is.
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It's interesting. Most posters in this discussion consider that the feeling of a Thaumaturge being too strong is wrong. But maybe there's really something with the Thaumaturge.
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Sorry, but I definitely see why some people are screaming about the Thaumaturge. ........... I'm even wondering if it's not too strong as is.
Thaumaturge is the new Fighter.
And if I look at Weapon Implement, it gets a +2 status bonus to attack at level 9+, that's a crazy bonus. With a Longsword it actually beats a Greatsword Fighter in damage.Are you taking the -3 on attack rolls vs. a fighter? (at half the levels, including early ones.)
Yes of course. But I've not taken into account action economy. The Thaumaturge can't attack as much as the Fighter.
The difference is:
A) 1 more action each and every turn spend. Which means most rounds you should be comparing 1 attack from thaums vs 2 attacks from fighter.
B) level 9 ability is from 2nd round that you studied a creature.
Not just 2nd round in combat, but actively 2nd round that specifically you are targeting each creature.
C) doesn't stack with any other status bonus to reach there. (so bards, spells, marshals, etcl
Which means usually only the boss monster.
I don't know the class well, so I'm definitely not the best one to assess its power. I just wonder if there could be something behind the feelings of both OP and Ravingdork's ex-teammates.
The class definitely steps on a lot of toes, it doesn't fill a classical "niche". There's a bit of skill monkey in there, spellcasting, too, and martial abilities obviously. Its limitations are also hard to grasp when you don't play one: Handedness, action economy issues, low defense are not as visible as efficiency.
In my opinion, a well played Thaumaturge may look very strong to a beginner eye.
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I've been kicked out of a group because of all the other class' toes my heavy armor thaumaturge stepped on.
The perception that they are better is certainly a prevalent one, sadly.
It's interesting. Most posters in this discussion consider that the feeling of a Thaumaturge being too strong is wrong. But maybe there's really something with the Thaumaturge.
I must admit I don't know the class well but when looking at the damage combined of both Implement's Empowerment and Exploit Vulnerability, the Thaumaturge actually gets a higher damage bonus than a raging Giant Barbarian. And if I look at Weapon Implement, it gets a +2 status bonus to attack at level 9+, that's a crazy bonus. With a Longsword it actually beats a Greatsword Fighter in damage.
Then, you have Esoteric Lore + Diverse Lore (so strong it's nearly a tax feat) that makes you crazy good at recalling knowledge without having neither high Intelligence nor Wisdom.Sorry, but I definitely see why some people are screaming about the Thaumaturge. It seems to step on a lot of toes. I'm even wondering if it's not too strong as is.
The difference is:
A) 1 more action each and every turn spend. Which means most rounds you should be comparing 1 attack from thaums vs 2 attacks from fighter.
B) level 9 ability is from 2nd round that you studied a creature.
Not just 2nd round in combat, but actively 2nd round that specifically you are targeting each creature.Which means usually only the boss monster.
C) doesn't stack with any other status bonus to reach there. (so bards, spells, marshals, etcl
D) half the levels you are behind to begin with due to 16 starting stat.
Also worth noting that while they have a high static bonus from implement empowerment that just makes up for being stuck with one handed weapons without a shield. A giant barbarian will deal more damage even before you factor in accuracy and action economy because you're really just comparing Exploit Vulnerability to Rage, and Weakness doesn't double on a crit.
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I think they do fit a niche.
What I mean is that they have abilities that are in general found in different classes. The Thaumaturge steps on anyone recalling knowledge, so Intelligence and Wisdom based classes, it is charisma based so it also steps on the toes of charisma based classes, it can use scrolls very well and as such can step on spellcasters toes when it comes to utility and of course it is a nice damage dealer and as such steps on weak damage dealers' toes. I can see a party complaining about a Thaumaturge being everywhere, especially if the player is good at exploiting the strengths of its class.
Rogue does a bit better on damage between accuracy, thief dex-to-damage, 2d6 debilitation, crits boosting precision dice and not having an action tax. Casting is a wash since anyone can grab an archetype, but thaum can get it without getting locked into an archetype (more useful in free archetype games too). Rogue won't have as good a modifier as thaum for cha skills, but will have more skill feats and one more skill vs tome. Bit of a wash for me tbh.
That's not a bad showing though. Just as most martials are just "fighter minus" thaumaturge is more like "thief minus" but is more competitive with it than most martials are with fighter. Sympathetic vulnerability can help with the action tax and not being hosed by precision immunity has its perks. The damage not being doubled on a crit is painful though. The (minimum) 5% crit fail rate won't come up often but will positively suck when it does.
All in all, I think thaum is close enough to rogue that it doesn't need to bother catching up and can diversify instead. I like the champion archetype line for melee or something like sleepwalker to lean into non-combat skill usage. Rogues are actually quite feat heavy which makes archetyping a little harder for them and thaumaturge isn't lacking for good feats either, particularly in the higher levels.
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It is pretty nuts when you can take nothing but the scroll feats, Sorcerer dedication up to master with the breadth feat and the tome implement and have a very competent martial, skill monkey and spellcaster (that's up to 21 spells per day!) AND still have enough class feats left to take Sentinel early enough to keep up with heavy armor (after general armor proficiency feat) AND you've still picked only 1 implement. Oh, and that is all without free-archetype, all without needing to be MAD or a specific ancestry.
A) sympathetic only helps with the weakness damage, to activate any of your reactions/abilities you need to have someone specifically as your target.
Be)
The thaum won't have as good a modifier in cha skills unless he completely ditches both athletics and acrobatics, which having at least one is very important imo for all martials.It would also be quite delayed, especially for the 3rd skill, to catch up to the rogue.
Or, to put it elsewise, it would be an extreme dedication from the thaum to do what a rogue can do casually.
C) on the subject of dedication vs scrolls, the scrolls are quite a bit behind, both in level and amount, to same feats spent on a caster dedication....
That's fine, after all, with lots of weak enemies they aren't likely to survive long enough for moving targets to be worthwhile anyway. The damage is the only feature you need in that case.
Don't know how rogue is beating a thaumaturge in cha skills though. Stat spread on a heavy armor thaum is probably looking like 16/10/12/10/12/18 for a default setup because they need to avoid the exploit crit fail. Maybe they'll go 16/10/14/10/12/16 for some extra hp and fort, but they're not going below rogues. Unless you mean by proficiency, but tome gives you a pair of skills anyway. You end up only one legendary proficiency behind a rogue (6 vs 5+esoteric lore). I make a point of using tome because otherwise you're competing with fighter and that goes poorly.
Thaumaturge scroll progression matches the scroll trickster archetype. It's slower than a regular casting archetype, but there's value in it not being an archetype, the spells not being fixed, and not being locked into a particular skill for progression.
I'm not saying they're better than rogues, but I am saying they're better off than most martials are vs fighter and if you need the skill niche filled and nobody wants to play a rogue, a thaumaturge is pretty damn close and can easily spec for better AC and defensive/healing utility with champ, non-combat skill usage with sleepwalker, flex spells, etc.
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Those are all extremely broad categories.
The group that kicked my thaumaturge out also complained that I was LG, had a battlexe, and wore heavy armor (there was already a champion paladin with a ploeaxe in the party), so I guess I never had a chance.
Talk about broad strokes.
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Those are all extremely broad categories.The group that kicked my thaumaturge out also complained that I was LG, had a battlexe, and wore heavy armor (there was already a champion paladin with a ploeaxe in the party), so I guess I never had a chance.
Talk about broad strokes.
Wow, yeah, I think that says a whole lot more about that group than the Thaumaturge.
My typical recommendation for thaumaturge is tome (legend) and weapon (adept). Chalice and amulet are easily replaced or duplicated by champion archetype if you want those. Regalia is never used because anything that gives a circumstance bonus is overridden by aid or ageless patience.
A thaumaturge gets 3 legendary skills standard, two more from tome and legendary esoteric lore. A rogue gets 6 legendary skills. These are close to equivalent as all you're really missing are a bunch of useless skill feats. The naturally higher cha of the thaumaturge is going to give it the edge in cha skills. So yes, tome is literally the only thing I'm comparing on skill usage.
Yes, tome thaum vs rogue looks better than [martial] vs fighter.
So no, it's two implements with optional equivalents through an archetype if you want them or you can take your build in another direction. Not exactly rocket science.
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A thaumaturge gets 3 legendary skills standard, two more from tome and legendary esoteric lore. A rogue gets 6 legendary skills. These are close to equivalent as all you're really missing are a bunch of useless skill feats. The naturally higher cha of the thaumaturge is going to give it the edge in cha skills. So yes, tome is literally the only thing I'm comparing on skill usage.
Yes, tome thaum vs rogue looks better than [martial] vs fighter.
For what it's worth, Thaumaturges also get those 2 extra skill increases at 9 and 17 via Thaumaturgic Expertise/Mastery. With something like skilled human, that can be a 5th legendary skill (including Esoteric Lore) without tome involved.