| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, Enduring Alchemy should be baseline, rather than a feat.
However, I'd say the biggest problem is that their Key Ability Score (Intelligence) ends up not helping most of their build options, especially when it comes to combat.
If you're throwing bombs (regardless of research field), you need Dexterity, and the same if making ranged attacks. If you're doing melee attacks you need Strength (or Dexterity). Sure, if you're using poisons, it helps increase the DC (once you're fifth level), but for most poisons, you still need to hit, and we're back to Strength or Dexterity.
Combined with their generally poor weapon proficiencies, it ends up being really frustrating.
As a correction for that, give them something like the Investigator's ability to substitute Intelligence for Strength or Dexterity once a round for a strike.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Surely if the warpriest cleric gets master weapon proficiency the alchemist does too, right?
Surely if the warpriest cleric gets master weapon proficiency the alchemist does too, right?
That seems very likely and they even made a comment during PaizoCon that the new warpriest proficiencies might be a sign of things to come and the Alchemist is the only class that shares the old expert 7, never master proflgression with the warpriest.
I think alchemist is also the only remaining non-caster without training in all martial weapons (ignoring monk's, anyway) so I wouldn't mind them getting martial weapons as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see them getting legendary in any sort of weapons, simply because bombs (well, of sufficient level) give item bonuses to hit. I wouldn't mind bombers getting Master proficiency in bombs, though.
But yeah, something like "Bombers get Quick Bomber as a bonus 1st level feat", and maybe something like it for Mutagenists and mutagens. (Collar of the Shifting Spider helps, but no class should be dependent on "must have this specific item" to be effective.)
If the alchemist has master proficiency then drinking their own mutagens just become their "math fixer" that puts them on par with a Ranger hunting prey or a Barbarian raging. Obviously proper martial weapon proficiency would also help for war blood alchemists but very little else would need to happen for the Hyde build to work.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Making bombs just scale with runes would be one way to smooth the progression (but it has the problem of making non-dedicated bombers require two sets of runes, which would suck a lot), but all this stuff about nerfing effects and stripping away mechanics feels like the opposite direction and just kind of boring.
Alchemist improvements should be focused on keeping the core of the class' identity while making them run better: proficiency improvements that don't leave weapon wielding alchemists out in the cold, crafting scaling, adjustments to feats, smoothing of progression, rebalancing of some particularly wonky items and their overall scaling.
Surely if the warpriest cleric gets master weapon proficiency the alchemist does too, right?
level 19
L5/L13 or we might as well go home.Surely if the warpriest cleric gets master weapon proficiency the alchemist does too, right?level 19
war priest gets master in their deity weapon at 19
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alchemist still are martials they still use weapons to attack and do damage. I can understand that warpriest only gets at level 19 due they are full casters but alchemist needs it more earlier or will still stoping to be effective individually after level 12 as it's currently is.
Alchemist still are martials they still use weapons to attack and do damage. I can understand that warpriest only gets at level 19 due they are full casters but alchemist needs it more earlier or will still stoping to be effective individually after level 12 as it's currently is.
they have caster level utility and that would and should be curbed or stunted in exchange for such a progression.
at which point id be personally on board.
Alchemist still are martials they still use weapons to attack and do damage. I can understand that warpriest only gets at level 19 due they are full casters but alchemist needs it more earlier or will still stoping to be effective individually after level 12 as it's currently is.they have caster level utility and that would and should be curbed or stunted in exchange for such a progression.
at which point id be personally on board.
I agree, but it's not the same thing, and honestly, if the designers feel they need to compensate for something (like the improvements to Perpetual Infusions which is more or less what he gets instead) I'd prefer it. Because in the situation it simply diminishing its own offensive capacity (it still manages to use it on others by providing the bombs, poisons and mutagens for the rest of the party) precisely at the moment when everyone is gaining more offensive capacity, even clerics!
I agree, but it's not the same thing, and honestly, if the designers feel they need to compensate for something (like the improvements to Perpetual Infusions which is more or less what he gets instead) I'd prefer it. Because in the situation it simply diminishing its own offensive capacity (it still manages to use it on others by providing the bombs, poisons and mutagens for the rest of the party) precisely at the moment when everyone is gaining more offensive capacity, even clerics!Alchemist still are martials they still use weapons to attack and do damage. I can understand that warpriest only gets at level 19 due they are full casters but alchemist needs it more earlier or will still stoping to be effective individually after level 12 as it's currently is.they have caster level utility and that would and should be curbed or stunted in exchange for such a progression.
at which point id be personally on board.
clerics dont get master until level 19, and only in their deity weapon
personally not ok with that change, as someone who loves war priests.
but its at 19, so i guess its fine, at least its not at 13/15
What changes would you like to see for the alchemist?
I do have a couple.
1. Like the inventor, the crafting skill auto increases as you level. This is kinda a given on the reason why.
2. Alchemist get the "hefty hauler" feat for free. The reason why is that you will get more and more weight as you go on and are either forced to get this or increase strength (maybe even both) so the you are not over encumbered. (Either the hefty hauler feat, or alchemical items from batches have no weight for the alchemist)
Why is 1 a given? Only one of the research fields ever has you roll Crafting and that one is already getting huge efficiency gains with the latest errata letting it completely replace Medicine. Nothing else actually requires Crafting the way Overdrive or Reconfigure do.
The alchemist has problems but lack of skills is not really one of them.
Because you need Crafting to craft things? So that you are not reliant on batches?
Why is 1 a given? Only one of the research fields ever has you roll Crafting and that one is already getting huge efficiency gains with the latest errata letting it completely replace Medicine. Nothing else actually requires Crafting the way Overdrive or Reconfigure do.
The alchemist has problems but lack of skills is not really one of them.
Until we know what the revamped Craft rules are, I would not try to put any of the alchemist's power budget (which is already stretched super thin by its versatility) towards the activity. The circumstances where Craft is a better choice of downtime than Earning Income and just purchasing goods are not consistent enough to build a class around. Just getting the downtime to Craft in the first place is not a safe assumption. And it costs money to utilize. Formulas are enough of a money sink for the class without trying to tie their power to downtime Crafting.
This feels like saying wizards should get maxed Crafting so they can make scrolls and be less reliant on spell slots. Honestly, wizards getting maxed Arcana would make more than Alchemists getting maxed Crafting. A wizard actually needs to roll Arcana to add tricks to their playbook, unlike the alchemist. And Crafting is such a broad, catch all skill at this point that I think all alchemists becoming legendary at underwear basket weaving feels odd.
I don't think this change would break the class or anything, but I think it shows a fundamental misunderstanding about the class, the skill, and the general ecosystem of play to suggest it as your number one change. I can rattle off a dozen things I'd prefer to see first:
1. Master weapon proficiency
2. Formulas automatically "heighten"
3. A reagent makes 4 items from Advanced Alchemy
4. A middle ground between doing all your prep at the beginning of the day and the inefficiency of Quick Alchemy, like being able to use Advanced Alchemy as a 10 minute activity throughout the day.
5. Intelligence does more, like being used to hit
6. More reasons to use items on yourself
7. Being able to quick draw and drink an elixir as one action
8. Bombs feel more explosive
9. Mutagens work more like PF1 where physical mutagens have mental drawbacks and vice versa
10. A level 1 perpetual alchemy/cantrips equivalent
11. Permanent alchemical items built into the class more
12. Generally condensing more "math fixer" feats (like increased bomb damage) into either the class chassis or the research fields.
I'd be ok with int you hit if it has mechanical drawbacks like investigator.
I'm not a fan of 5e attack with nearly whatever you want just multi class for it system of playing.
I think people want more power, and more power comes with less versatility
I'd be fine with that, personally
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think people want more power, and more power comes with less versatility
Only if the status quo is perfect.
Only if the status quo is perfect.
I think people want more power, and more power comes with less versatility
It is imo, the entire premise is alchemist being weak or unsatisfying at this point is not because it's not good, but because it doesn't do what the player base wants
Same with war priest
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Intelligence to hit would not actually be that high up on my list of preferred changes, as I was rattling them off the dome, but it would at least help with both their accuracy problem and make their key stat matter for more than just longevity.
Also, I don't think the War Priest has comparable problems to the Alchemist. It has some really straightforward, powerful tools. Divine Font, Divine Weapon, Channel Smite, and so forth. I agree people have an expectation problem, but the solution of actually using your spells is pretty easy to grok.
The alchemist also has a major complexity problem. There are a ton of things you could do to make the class just easier to play, like letting one reagent arm your entire party with Sea-Touched elixir instead of having some items you make two of and some you make three of, making mutagens easier to use without feeling like you might be sabotaging yourself if the enemy happens to target your penalized save, not forcing the entire cognitive load of your adventuring day into your daily preparations, not forcing you to use formulas just to keep your regular items upgraded to their latest version, making it easier to apply elixirs at range...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What changes would you like to see for the alchemist?
I do have a couple.
1. Like the inventor, the crafting skill auto increases as you level. This is kinda a given on the reason why.
2. A reason why.
Alchemists do not use Crafting. I would like them to.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While the class does have problems, arguably part of the draw of it is the spreadsheet, or at least that conceptual space.
The alchemist is the only class in the entire game that rewards the player for being able to reference a wide variety of tools and options on the fly. While there are definitely problems and design failings with the class as is, it'd be a shame if in the name of accessibility it ends up becoming too specialized or too straight forward.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bomber Alchemists need legendary prof. with alchemical bombs for the same reason gunslingers need legendary prof. in firearms.
Right now the most effective use of an alchemist's core class ability is to craft the bomb, and then to gain maximum hit chance, hand it to the fighter to throw.
Imagine the gunslinger only got master firearms proficiency. The core ability of the class to craft and use firearms would be best served by handing the gun to a fighter to shoot it.
An alchemist's ENTIRE IDENTITY is to make alchemical items. If they are not the best at using alchemical items (or at least tied for best), then the core class identity is broken (in a bad way).
You could get away with specific alchemical items being designed for certain classes that the alchemist itself doesn't have much use for, the same way haste is better to cast on the martial than yourself, but bombs are a core alchemical item type that the class has an entire subclass dedicated to, and which no other class has a specific focus on.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bomber Alchemists need legendary prof. with alchemical bombs for the same reason gunslingers need legendary prof. in firearms.
Right now the most effective use of an alchemist's core class ability is to craft the bomb, and then to gain maximum hit chance, hand it to the fighter to throw.
Imagine the gunslinger only got master firearms proficiency. The core ability of the class to craft and use firearms would be best served by handing the gun to a fighter to shoot it.
An alchemist's ENTIRE IDENTITY is to make alchemical items. If they are not the best at using alchemical items (or at least tied for best), then the core class identity is broken (in a bad way).
You could get away with specific alchemical items being designed for certain classes that the alchemist itself doesn't have much use for, the same way haste is better to cast on the martial than yourself, but bombs are a core alchemical item type that the class has an entire subclass dedicated to, and which no other class has a specific focus on.
Even if we don't want Legendary proficiency per se, I think this is a core problem - it should not be more efficient to hand everything over to party members. Handing some things over is neat and cool, but the alchemist *has* to be the absolute best at chucking their own bombs, no questions asked. Whether that come in the form of action economy, proficiency, damage output, gold cost, new penalties, however it's achieved it's important that the Alchemist is the best at throwing their own bombs. That is a niche that needs protecting, even if another class comies around that's focused on throwing bombs that class should have some barrier that keeps their existence in a party from making the Alchemist feel implicitly pressured to give them their bombs.
It doesn't even matter if the Alchemist doesn't actually hand out their bombs or if it's not actually more effective to hand out their bombs, that the thought is crossing people's minds has an impact on the fun of the class. If someone suspects the fun thing they're doing is "greedy" and less effective, that feels bad for a lot of people. Making Alchemist players feel secure knowing that they're unquestioanbly the best at using the alchemical items they create lets them feel powerful, like any class should make players feel.
Without Alchemist's feats, no one is better than a Bomber Alchemist at throwing Bombs. And I disagree on Alchemist having to be the best at bombing, the class is not a normal martial per se and as such it doesn't have to compete with martials when it comes to dealing damage. Unless you arbitrarily prevent other classes from throwing bombs, you can't make the Alchemist the best Bomber without breaking class balance (as you'll end up with an Alchemist as good as a martial at dealing damage but also far better at supporting the party).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bomber Alchemists need legendary prof. with alchemical bombs for the same reason gunslingers need legendary prof. in firearms.
Right now the most effective use of an alchemist's core class ability is to craft the bomb, and then to gain maximum hit chance, hand it to the fighter to throw.
Imagine the gunslinger only got master firearms proficiency. The core ability of the class to craft and use firearms would be best served by handing the gun to a fighter to shoot it.
An alchemist's ENTIRE IDENTITY is to make alchemical items. If they are not the best at using alchemical items (or at least tied for best), then the core class identity is broken (in a bad way).
You could get away with specific alchemical items being designed for certain classes that the alchemist itself doesn't have much use for, the same way haste is better to cast on the martial than yourself, but bombs are a core alchemical item type that the class has an entire subclass dedicated to, and which no other class has a specific focus on.
Fighters are actually pretty bad with bombs. Remember, their legendary proficiency is limited to one weapon without using archetype hacks, and I don't think an archetype like archer exists for bombs. They also don't get Quick Draw without using archetypes. By comparison, a ranger can throw bombs twice as far (pretty relevant when your base increment is only 20 feet), use flurry edge to boost accuracy, and quick draw to keep pumping them out. This assumes you can't use damage boosters like precision edge, strategic strike, implement empowerment, overdrive, or raging thrower on bombs. A flurry ranger is your best possible companion to hand bombs too. (Unless your fighter choose to be legendary in bombs and spent class feats imitating an alchemist, but if your teammates are building around using your items instead of you something weird has happened.)
And for bombers specifically, alchemists have an awful lot of advantages beyond accuracy. Enhanced splash damage, distance, flexible area of effects, sticky bombs, debilitating bombs, perpetuals, far lobber, ignoring cover, protecting allies from splash... I'm reasonably sure they can outperform martials with bombs in actual play even at their current proficiency. Master seems sufficient to me.
Being a vending machine is a much bigger problem for poisons and elixirs than bombs. The real problem with bombs is how feat intensive they are to maintain acceptable functionality. Even non-bombers need to spend feats on them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
5. Intelligence does more, like being used to hit
Maybe if it is some sort of alchemical ability. But Strength and Dexterity need to be preserved for melee and ranged weapons respectively. Pazio need to stick to their design decision on this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like that idea. Bomber gets quick bomber and far lobber(taking the ides to combine the 2, all of the splash feats, and sticky bomb
toxicologist gets subtle delivery, poison resist, tenacious toxins, and sticky poison. (There's another poison feat but I cannot remember)
Mutagen gets all the meutagen feats duh.
Chirurgeon gets heal bomb and the debilitating bomb tree. (Add a new bomb that has the healing trait but deals a some kind of damage)
All of these are still available to all the other fields.
See this I can get behind. I generally I wish class paths gave more than they did in core. Luckily, Paizo has been slowing moving in that direction with Guns and Gears and then Dark Archives, so hopefully this shift in design philosophy combined with some feat compression nets some solid results in the Remaster.
The other thing I'd really like is if class specific skill feats became a thing like we have archetype skill feats. A lot of class feats are just souped up skill feats. Letting players purchase them with skill feat slots would simultaneously reduce the class feat bottle neck and make skill feats feel more relevant.
Personally I'd rather not see the specializations get too heavy. One of the interesting things about the Alchemist is that you can freely dabble in your entire toolkit without being punished for it (except poisons somewhat which have ruinious action economy if you don't take rogue archetype).
Specialization should be more about fine tuning your focus and choosing where to focus your resources than hard walls made by specialties.
A free feat might be fun, but too much beyond that runs the risk of starting to wall off parts of the class.
Especially since being cross-disciplinary is already baked into the class. If you're a chirurgeon or toxicologist you need to be able to take "off specialization" items and excel with them to make your gameplan work. It's really only feral mutagenists and dedicated bombers that can remain entirely in-specialization, but those are two of the better builds already.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This would be a BIG change to the entire game, but I think creatures need more Weaknesses and fewer Immunities.
I love the idea of the Alchemist having cheap access to a wide variety of damage types (fire, cold, electric, etc.) that they can use to exploit enemy Weaknesses and avoid their Resistances/Immunities. However, a minority of creatures have Weaknesses that can be exploited and far too many have Resistances/Immunities, so the creatures themselves undercut what should be the Alchemist's strengths. This also applies to other classes/builds that can use a variety of damage types (notably blasters).
A solution to this would be to reduce the number of Immunities, reduce the number of Resistances, and increase the number of Weaknesses. I would drop most Immunities to a high Resistance (save the ones that REALLY need to be there, like a fire elemental being immune to fire). Most Resistances I would either reduce (Resist 10 > Resist 5) or do away with entirely. Adding Weaknesses to creatures that didn't have them before might be a little tricky with some, but by and large should be easy to pull off.
An easier change would be to make Alchemists more debuff-centric via poisons. This would largely involve changing poisons by making more of the include conditions (enfeebled, clumsy, stupefied, etc.) and making fewer creatures immune to poison. I would also make poisons follow the Persistent Damage rules as opposed to their own subsystem, but that's me. More debuffing poisons, less poison immunity, and improved weapon proficiency, would be very helpful for making Alchemists pack more of a punch in combat.
One last thought, but in PF1 I greatly enjoyed the +2/-1 tradeoff that mutagens and cognatagens provided. Maybe bring that back for the mutagens in PF2?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I want a viable mutation alchemist.
I think that this is probably going to be part and parcel with the update/cleanup to the whole Polymorph/Morph/Shapechange systems that is almost certainly inevitable given how wonky it is and that it's just generally a sore spot that's ripe for attention.
... hopefully.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll admit I'm not great at class design but ever since the Inventor came out I've been thinking adding a 10-minute exploration activity to the Alchemist similar to their Overdrive mechanic that supplies reagents on a success would go a long way to giving them more lasting power and making Quick Alchemy more attractive. This would be a great excuse to give them auto-scaling Crafting as well.
Transmute Reagents
You use your alchemical knowledge to scavenge through readily available natural or unnatural resources to produce new reagents in your temporary lab. As a 10-minute activity, attempt a Crafting check that has a standard DC for your level. After your lab work you must return to your notes to find new avenues of innovation and you can't use Transmute Reagents for 1 hour.
Critical Success: A sudden flash of brilliance takes hold and you've discovered a way to truly transmute matter. Add half your Intelligence Modifier of batches to your Infused Reagents.
Success: You've managed to have some minor inspiration. As Critical Success, except you add 1 batch to your Infused Reagents.
Failure: Your work has proven derivative and you have been left wanting for results, wasting the resources at hand.
Critical Failure: Desperation has made you sloppy and in your haste to test reagents, you have poisoned yourself. You take poison damage equal to your level.