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Today was the last day of this year's PaizoCon, and the 'Into the Darklands' was one that understandably drew a lot of attention. I strongly recommend watching the Twitch VOD on Paizo's channel for yourself, and while I am deeply grateful for The-Magic-Sword's live writeup, I wanted to include some spelling, additional Discord info, and spelling corrections. I hope this is useful!
In brief: much of the classic Underdark stuff inherited via the OGL had to go, either getting reworks to become distinct or being replaced with more uniquely-Golarion things in their role. Sky King's Tomb #3 has a backmatter article that gives an overview of what 2e's Darklands will be focused on going forward, though they do warn that it isn't especially long. This article apparently namedrops
We won't see much of the Drow anymore. The Sekmin are firmly stepping up as the primary antagonistic Ancestry in the Darklands, occupying many of the great cities - though Zirnakaynin (the demonic Drow's capital city) is now instead an ancient ruin even the serpentfolk avoid. James Jacobs wants the serpentfolk to firmly be bad guys, at least for now, but would want any dissent/redemption to be a result of 'on-screen' play.
Cavern Elves - or in their language, Ayindilar - are some of the friendlier faces we can expect to find below. They aren't replacing the Drow or inheriting elements of their culture, but that mechanical option now truly is what we have for Elves from below. Ayindilar live in small settlements (meant to act as places of refuge for PCs), with some moving as nomads between them.
Svirfneblins (another OGL casualty) and Umbral Gnomes (a Heritage) are one people, the Drathnelar, who are in the more sympathetic camp alongside Ayindilar. Munavris are original to Pathfinder, and so get to remain. James Jacobs says he sees them as the "good guys" of Orv, alongside the Ayindilar for Nar-Voth and the Drathnelar for Sekamina.
Duergar have been renamed the Hryngar, and much of their lore looks the same; they're who the other Dwarves left behind on the Quest for Sky, falling into Droskar's worship and a crueler way of life. With the move away from slavery and OGL, their innate magic has changed, and they're now paranoid, selfish jerks who believe in exploiting others for personal gain. There was mention of them potentially stealing tech from Dongun Hold.
Fleshwarps may well rise in prominence to fill some of the role of Drow, as weird changed horrors of the deep that folks are afraid of. There's definitely still some link between the Elves who went underground to avoid Earthfall and Fleshwarps. Xulgaths are sticking around. The Ghouls of Nemret Noktoria aren't going anywhere. Caligni are distinct enough from their OGL roots to stay. Intellect Devourers are now Xoarians, gross brain-octopi that crawl inside skulls to puppet corpses. Neothelids are probably catching a rename, Conqueror Worms and Seugathi remain in canon.
A Lost Omens: Darklands "feels inevitable," but needs to find the right place on the schedule.
There's a chance Second Darkness is removed from canon or hit with retcons, but it hasn't been decided yet.
I think that's everything!
The last thing I want to remind everyone is: the existing Drow stats for PF2 enemies and NPCs will be completely compatible with the Remaster, so you can continue using them going forward if you're very attached to them! A lot of these changes are prompted by legal stuff, but have given the writers a chance to really make this part of the setting feel more original, and that excites me greatly.
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The Hyringar not wanting to enslave you, but instead wanting you to become part of their downline has the potential to be frankly hilarious in practice. The deep dwarves being fundamentally lazy MLM scammers has a lot of potential.
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The Hyringar not wanting to enslave you, but instead wanting you to become part of their downline has the potential to be frankly hilarious in practice. The deep dwarves being fundamentally lazy MLM scammers has a lot of potential.
Whoever introduces Kalistocrat belief to the Hryngar is going to become quite wealthy indeed.
...right up until a Droskarite inquisitor kills them and takes over their whole operation.
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The Hryngar development is very interesting. It's also interesting from a lore perspective. I can see the Droskar influence, but there's a whole lot of Dranngvit in there. I'd say more Dranngvit than Droskar if it weren't for her third anathema (Don't force others into debts you know are unpayable). Though people have different definitions of what may define "force" in this context...
(Also: the dwarven god Trudd is one of Cayden Cailean's recurring partners)
Creative Director
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Question, I read a recap of the panel that said "Serpentfolk's main role is to plan to come up from below and replace humanity, they’re an organized powerful group who is out to get everyone and are preparing to someday invade the surface." That feels a little close to reptilian conspiracy theories to actually be what's intended, so I'm wondering if it was maybe mis-transcribed?
Being semi close to those reptilian conspiracy theories is part of the theme we're going for in fact. In that the Conan stories are a big part of that inspiration.
I suspect the incredibly successful mid-80s TV miniseries "V" had a lot to do with the modern resurgence and interest in "reptilians disguised as humans who want to eat us humans" too.
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Question, I read a recap of the panel that said "Serpentfolk's main role is to plan to come up from below and replace humanity, they’re an organized powerful group who is out to get everyone and are preparing to someday invade the surface." That feels a little close to reptilian conspiracy theories to actually be what's intended, so I'm wondering if it was maybe mis-transcribed?
The Sekmin have a long past in Pathfinder, in that they ruled much of Garund until the ancient Azlanti invaded and drove them into the Darklands, beheading their god in the process. Their narrative has always been about being vengeful freaks from the dark below; infiltrators, mutants, psychics, priests of a mostly-dead deity.
It’s about retaking the lands they lost to humanity in the past.
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The fact that recent conspiracy theories have latched onto that sort of thing is gross and unpleasant and speaks to a much larger sickness festering in the heart of modern society, and when things like this come into the forefront, it can make established stories feel awkward at best and downright dangerous at worst. If/when we do more with the sekmin being reptiles who seek to infiltrate humanity in the form of a big adventure or story arc, we will for sure include context and content warnings about it. It's possible that we might even just abandon those storylines entirely in the short term or even the long term as well, much in the same way we're not doing many "disease is running rampant" stories now in this post-pandemic present.
In the meantime, we have no plans to do a sekmin disguised as humans storyline this year or next year; it's part of the trope of these creatures, as mentioned above, so when the topic turned toward sekmin as they relate to the drow, it resurfaced is all.
Just so there's no confusion... I personally am not interested in supporting hate in any of its forms, including the gross and awful antisemitism/Quanon stuff that's gained a foothold in society in recent years. Gaming should be for everyone, and playing games with friends should be something that feels safe. Those who seek to spread hate and racisim and the like stand for the exact opposite of what I want gamers to enjoy and what I feel Pathfinder should stand for, and have no place at any game table I'm involved with.
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What a delightful coincidence! I was just today explaining to my brother the connection between antisemitism and reptilian conspiracy theories and we were lamenting how cool the idea of underground reptile people disguise as humans was for something that gets used as a dogwhistle. I was also explaining the Darklands changes at the same time, which is why it came up, so I added that certainly Paizo would not be intentionally doing anything they thought smacked of antisemitic conspiracies, so it delights me to see James responding to those concerns the very same day.
In a day when it hardly seems like you can trust any company, it's reassuring to know the people at Paizo continue their commitment to inclusive and diverse stories just as much and even more now than when they first earned my respect.
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It IS kind of mind-boggling that telling a story about shape-changing reptile monsters has become fraught with real-world non-fringe political elements. This time 3 years ago, I never could have predicated that shape-changing reptile people would be in the same category as "Don't talk about politics on the Paizo forums" but here we are.
Humans are good at ruining stuff. Makes it more important than ever for us to publish games were we get to be elves instead, I say.
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The Hyringar not wanting to enslave you, but instead wanting you to become part of their downline has the potential to be frankly hilarious in practice. The deep dwarves being fundamentally lazy MLM scammers has a lot of potential.
"Worshippers of the sacred triangle, which you too can join for 12 monthly payments, especially if you bring a friend. Meeting to be held at the Pyramid of Scheming! Terms and conditions apply."
If I remember rightly aren't Chaosium also signing up to the ORC license? There are a lot of serpentfolk adventures there (Including some recent campaigns). If the Paizo version is similar to the Chaosium version is this going to be an example of Chaosium and Paizo sharing a monster?
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Creative Director
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If I remember rightly aren't Chaosium also signing up to the ORC license? There are a lot of serpentfolk adventures there (Including some recent campaigns). If the Paizo version is similar to the Chaosium version is this going to be an example of Chaosium and Paizo sharing a monster?
We share quite a bit of monsters, particularly when it comes to drawing from public domain content, and already have done some collaborations with them before using the OGL. I suspect that those sorts of collaborations will be even easier to do going forward with the ORC license.
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I'm just going to throw this out there: Ancient underground reptilians out to conquer the surface world is a very widespread and old trope. Multiple pulp authors ran with variations of it, you have classic Science fiction using it in places like V, the Silurians from Dr. Who, and the Sleezestacks (spelling?) from Land of the Lost, and innumerable others. It's not some sort of inherently racist trope, just like enjoying Norse mythology doesn't make you a member of the Aryan brotherhood, even though some white supremacist groups have adopted elements of those myths.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The Hyringar not wanting to enslave you, but instead wanting you to become part of their downline has the potential to be frankly hilarious in practice. The deep dwarves being fundamentally lazy MLM scammers has a lot of potential."Worshippers of the sacred triangle, which you too can join for 12 monthly payments, especially if you bring a friend. Meeting to be held at the Pyramid of Scheming! Terms and conditions apply."
As long as they don't devolve into a dumb stereotype ala the Ferengi.
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As long as they don't devolve into a dumb stereotype ala the Ferengi.The Hyringar not wanting to enslave you, but instead wanting you to become part of their downline has the potential to be frankly hilarious in practice. The deep dwarves being fundamentally lazy MLM scammers has a lot of potential."Worshippers of the sacred triangle, which you too can join for 12 monthly payments, especially if you bring a friend. Meeting to be held at the Pyramid of Scheming! Terms and conditions apply."
Skipping straight to the DS9 Ferengi is fine though.
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I took a look at the various Darklands Ancestry possibilities that I could find from 1E and compiled them, along with what we know is being updated with the Remaster. Some of these we already have Ancestry Rules for, but several of them may be possibilities for a Darklands book. There are some great options here, but my hold out hope is Vegepygmy. The lore for the Vegepygmies in Golarion is already very interesting and I hope we don’t lose them. I also hope the Buggane get updated so that they are more Mole Folk, and less underground ogres that kind of look like more people. Did I miss any Darklands Ancestry possibilities? And what Darklands Ancestries to you hope to see explored?
Ayindilar (Elves)
Buggane
Caligni
Caulborn
Charda
Dero
Dire Corby (Tengu)
Drathnelar (Gnomes/Svirfneblin)
Drow (Removed)
Dwarf
Fleshwarp
Hryngar (Dwarf/Duergar)
Kobold
Mezlan
Mongrelmen (Possibly Removed)
Morlock
Munavri
Myceloid
Orc
Pech
Sekmin
Ulat-Kini (Formerly Skum)
Trox
Urdefhan
Vegepygmy
Wayang
Xulgath
Ysoki
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As long as they don't devolve into a dumb stereotype ala the Ferengi.The Hyringar not wanting to enslave you, but instead wanting you to become part of their downline has the potential to be frankly hilarious in practice. The deep dwarves being fundamentally lazy MLM scammers has a lot of potential."Worshippers of the sacred triangle, which you too can join for 12 monthly payments, especially if you bring a friend. Meeting to be held at the Pyramid of Scheming! Terms and conditions apply."
I think 2e has been doing a pretty good job of fleshing out creatures and their cultures--even for societies that are supposed to be antagonistic to most PCs.
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I took a look at the various Darklands Ancestry possibilities that I could find from 1E and compiled them, along with what we know is being updated with the Remaster. Some of these we already have Ancestry Rules for, but several of them may be possibilities for a Darklands book. There are some great options here, but my hold out hope is Vegepygmy. The lore for the Vegepygmies in Golarion is already very interesting and I hope we don’t lose them. I also hope the Buggane get updated so that they are more Mole Folk, and less underground ogres that kind of look like more people. Did I miss any Darklands Ancestry possibilities? And what Darklands Ancestries to you hope to see explored?
Ayindilar (Elves)
Buggane
Caligni
Caulborn
Charda
Dero
Dire Corby (Tengu)
Drathnelar (Gnomes/Svirfneblin)
Drow (Removed)
Dwarf
Fleshwarp
Hryngar (Dwarf/Duergar)
Kobold
Mezlan
Mongrelmen (Possibly Removed)
Morlock
Munavri
Myceloid
Orc
Pech
Sekmin
Ulat-Kini (Formerly Skum)
Trox
Urdefhan
Vegepygmy
Wayang
Xulgath
Ysoki
Vegepygmies are also from the OGL...I am not familiar enough with the DnD lore of them to know how different they are or how important they are as IP. They do feel like another form that might be on the chopping block though. At the very least they will probably need a pretty heavy redo.
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Vegepygmies [...] might be on the chopping block though.
Mmm... salad.
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I think 2e has been doing a pretty good job of fleshing out creatures and their cultures--even for societies that are supposed to be antagonistic to most PCs.As long as they don't devolve into a dumb stereotype ala the Ferengi.The Hyringar not wanting to enslave you, but instead wanting you to become part of their downline has the potential to be frankly hilarious in practice. The deep dwarves being fundamentally lazy MLM scammers has a lot of potential."Worshippers of the sacred triangle, which you too can join for 12 monthly payments, especially if you bring a friend. Meeting to be held at the Pyramid of Scheming! Terms and conditions apply."
I always felt bored whenever we met Duergars in PFS scenarios. I look forward to meeting Hryngars.
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I also don't quite see the point of erasing Drow. Sure, downplay their importance, so that there is something unique to Golarion's Darklands than other Underdark-esque settings. But you can still have them around in minor roles, and with a different twist. Drow and Duergar aren't really something WotC can sue over, since they are from Norse mythology and English folklore respectively.
Unfortunately if any of this were true, Paizo probably wouldn't have gotten rid of drow, considering they were already years deep into making drow their own thing when the OGL debacle threw a wrench into everyone's plans. Suffice to say, legal teams have already looked at the drow and decided they were a no fly zone, as painful as that fact has been so some fans.
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I don't mind things changing (in fact, I like many of the proposed changes), but I don't like how Paizo keeps constantly retconing things, as in pretending past lore doesn't exist. In effect Paizo you are making products customers have bought from you in the past more useless. Seriously need to cut that out because it is inexcusably bad world design and disrespectful to past designers as well as older fans.
Make new lore or expand lore without making things you've made in the past invalid.
I also don't quite see the point of erasing Drow. Sure, downplay their importance, so that there is something unique to Golarion's Darklands than other Underdark-esque settings. But you can still have them around in minor roles, and with a different twist. Drow and Duergar aren't really something WotC can sue over, since they are from Norse mythology and English folklore respectively.
Drow are very much not from Norse lore.
Paizo isn’t retconning things randomly on a whim, they’re excising pieces that are too radioactive to keep around.
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I don't mind things changing (in fact, I like many of the proposed changes), but I don't like how Paizo keeps constantly retconing things, as in pretending past lore doesn't exist. In effect Paizo you are making products customers have bought from you in the past more useless. Seriously need to cut that out because it is inexcusably bad world design and disrespectful to past designers as well as older fans.
Make new lore or expand lore without making things you've made in the past invalid.
I also don't quite see the point of erasing Drow. Sure, downplay their importance, so that there is something unique to Golarion's Darklands than other Underdark-esque settings. But you can still have them around in minor roles, and with a different twist. Drow and Duergar aren't really something WotC can sue over, since they are from Norse mythology and English folklore respectively.
Apart from the OGL- related issue of drows (poor Otyughs, nobody thinks about them), which constant retcons are you referring to that would make past products "more useless" ?
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Drow and Duergar aren't really something WotC can sue over, since they are from Norse mythology and English folklore respectively.
Please name five differences between the two in Norse Mythology.
I mean, we could say the Drow were always just (new word for Duergar) but would that really make anyone happy?
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I’d also love to hear what these “constant retcons” are.
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I feel like people are normally upset because Paizo isn't respecting their personal (or their table's) canon. You then end up like thinking that since you had a character in PF1 who could do [thing] then if you can't also do that [thing] in PF2, that's a "retcon." Meanwhile a person who never encountered anything like that before, nor an Asmodean Paladin, nor a misogynist Erastil, nor a Drow won't notice anything different.
I mean, everybody's feelings are valid, but at some level we have to be able to realize when the problems are with ourselves.
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I mean, I'm bit annoyed that "reptilian shapeshifters" is considered offensive but "vampires" aren't because ridiculous conspiracy theories are diverse in terms of tropes they steal from.
I also get it because its about what is the current fad that is being used to hound people and whether its mainstream enough to not get associated with the fringe groups but blergh, it sucks when it happens to cool tropes. And totally not because I would rather lose vampires than reptile humanoids
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I don't think we're losing reptilian humanoids so much as "we are going to have to be careful about how we present Sekmin plots that involve posing as humans or other ancestries."
Partly this isn't a terrible idea since "Algolthu infiltrate your society and pull the strings" seems more part and parcel to Pathfinder than if the Snake people do it (even if that's what they did in Conan.)
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I mean, I'm bit annoyed that "reptilian shapeshifters" is considered offensive but "vampires" aren't because ridiculous conspiracy theories are diverse in terms of tropes they steal from.
I also get it because its about what is the current fad that is being used to hound people and whether its mainstream enough to not get associated with the fringe groups but blergh, it sucks when it happens to cool tropes. And totally not because I would rather lose vampires than reptile humanoids
This reminded me of poor old Malack in OotS. He was both a vampire and a reptile humanoid.
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It feels nitpicky to point out that the word "Drow" does actually have Norse origins, being descended from Old Norse "Troll" and referring to a bunch of giant-like or fairy-like beings in the Orkney Islands. Nevertheless, Drow as they exist in fantasy games aren't very much like the Trow of Orkney, and are very much a D&D thing.
But if Paizo still want to keep an ancestry of subterranean elves who survived Earthfall and have become distinct from their Elven brethren, then I think they could adequately fill that niche with the Jinin who in 1e lore split off from the Drow very early but did survive underground until they emerged in Tian Xia. They're nearly a blank slate as far as lore goes, letting Paizo do some interesting and different things from the Basically-The-Forgotten-Realms underground empire of 1e and the problematic baggage that comes with it, especially with a Tian Xia setting guide coming out late this year or next year. And while they could offer a Drow-alike mechanically for 2e players who still want Drow in their home settings, the Jinin name and concept isn't copyrighted by WotC.
And on the topic of modifying the Sekmin, I agree wholeheartedly that Paizo should do its best to avoid playing into the antisemetic tropes that surround reptillian humanoids, but if you just remove their ability to pose as humans without replacing it with something at least as powerful I'm left asking what meaningful difference there is between Sekmin and Nagaji and why we need TWO separate snake-themed ancestries. Come to think of it, what would Nagaji and Vishkanya think of Sekmin, and vice versa?
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To be clear though, the disturbing thing about sekmin infiltrating as human isn't that they shapeshift(that's what reptoids do).
The disturbing thing was that lore for Sekmin infiltrators was that they perform ritual suicide and Reincarnate ritual to transform into humans as sort of grand sacrifice considering they absolutely detest humans <_<
With them literally transforming themselves into humans through reincarnation, I'm sure that probably opens some cans of worms, but it was definitely very grisly and unique aspect to them
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I’d also love to hear what these “constant retcons” are.
Same. There have been retcons over the years, but all of the ones I can think of are from the 3.5 days (Darklight Sisterhood, paladins of Asmodeus), or from early 1e (Erastil being a misogynist).
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I’d also love to hear what these “constant retcons” are.Same. There have been retcons over the years, but all of the ones I can think of are from the 3.5 days (Darklight Sisterhood, paladins of Asmodeus), or from early 1e (Erastil being a misogynist).
And several of them were actually correcting earlier mistakes in lore and thus not actual retcons.
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How important is the size of the "evil" portion of a given ancestry?
Like there's no shortage of evil humans. The state religion of Cheliax is devil worship, for goodness sakes. It's just that we recognize that "while the aristocracy and government of Cheliax is evil, most normal people in Cheliax are like normal people elsewhere, they just live in different circumstances." Or do the same example with Nidal- Nisroch has ~25,000 people; how many of them really need to be evil to justify how Nidal is portrayed in the lore?
I'm not really clear on why this same approach wouldn't work for Elves, or Dwarves, or anybody else. The basic problem with Elves is that there large number of them anywhere, generally speaking. But it really wouldn't be hard to justify a significant portion of the Alijae getting corrupted by some Demon magic if you wanted it for a story.
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The main thing that worries me in this situation... will there be groups of evil elves in the setting? I mean, drow aren't the only evil elves in popular culture. There are Melnibonians of Moorcock, there are Drukhari from Warhammer, there is in the end Tolkien with his Maeglin. Evil elves are not exclusive to DnD and I would really like to see them.
I think holding out for "evil ethnicities" of any Ancestry is a longshot. Even a culture like the Bekyar have been presented with nuance, but we tend to see more villainous individuals and organizations than anything 'innate' in 2e.
Elves you can murder because of their skin tone? Probably not gonna happen. A group of bloody-handed Jininese warriors sworn to General Susumu? Much more likely.
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I still do not understand why they didn't just say something as simple as 'instances of Drow will be replaced with Ayndilar, and reflavored to match our own world and sensibilities'.
It feels weird now running my Abomination Vaults campaign because like... what do I say about the Drow? We plan on continuing this group of PCs and they absolutely LOVE the ones you meet in the third book. Hugely connecting with them. Why not just call them Ayndilar instead of saying 'We're replacing them ALL with sekmin (which really sounds like Snek Men and I like it) but also we will have elves in the Darklands too but different'.
It really seems like a strange way of going about it which causes unnecessary confusion.
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However, I want the setting to have strong organized groups of evil characters.
As long as Pathfinder remains at its heart a combat simulator and heroic fantasy simulator, the need for having strong organized groups of evil characters will remain. They might change, especially as we do adventures and stories that give your players a chance to defeat or minimize some groups, but my goal is always to make sure that for each evil group that is defeated to put at least one more (preferably two more) into the game for future stories to tell.
Note that evil organized groups ≠ evil ancestries.
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Yes May I direct your attention to the OGL shenanigans that are ongoing and have been discussed and which this thread is also named after.
If they coulda just renamed them, they would have.
I didn't say they 'just rename them'. The condescending tone here is weird. I'm VERY aware of the 'shenanigans'.
What I said was instances of drow in universe in NO WAY (aside from Second Darkness, really) portray them identically to how WotC does. The drow in AV for example feel nice and unique; the mummy ones in EC also have a very fresh flavor. I mean all they need to do is say 'these elves who live underground in the darklands (literally what the Ayindilar are said to be) are called Cavern Elves by the surface. Their skin is pale due to being subterranean and takes on a lavender hue due to ~magic~.'
Removing Drow but ALSO keeping elves who live in enclaves in the Darklands is just unnecessarily confusing, imo, especially with very recently established Darklands elf populations in APs.
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I mean all they need to do is say 'these elves who live underground in the darklands (literally what the Ayindilar are said to be) are called Cavern Elves by the surface. Their skin is pale due to being subterranean and takes on a lavender hue due to ~magic~.'
Removing Drow but ALSO keeping elves who live in enclaves in the Darklands is just unnecessarily confusing, imo, especially with very recently established Darklands elf populations in APs.
That's very likely what we'll do in those cases, but we won't HAVE to do that unless we do a story that builds upon that content or we reprint one of those products as an ORC adventure. Neither of those things are taking place anytime soon, if ever.
A more likely development would be that we do an adventure or story that builds upon some of those OGL established characters, at which point we'll update things as makes sense.
Those two groups are already not like the D&D drow, so simply changing their name and some of their history is all that's needed, and again, unless we do something with those in an ORC product, we don't have to do that at all.
What neither of those situations address at all is the precedent we established in 3.5 Golarion about the drow who dwell in Sekamina and are intentionally very close to D&D's OGL drow, by design, to help make early-Golarion/pre-Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder more comfortable and inviting to our magazine customers and fans of about 15 years ago.
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I'm really glad to hear that, tbh. :D
Sekamina seems so far from mainstream Golarion these days, it seems like a perfect chance to rework it anyways!