Remastered Wizard reveals and speculation

[Skyduke]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Remaining optimistic that there are factors that we are not seeing that will be entering play here.

Honestly can't see destroying an iconic class when raising other classes *to* that power level would be more fun for everyone.

Imagine if they made the absolutely horrendous decision to nerf every other class to make the wizard seem better. Oh my goodness that would be like stabbing a knife in your own game's heart. I hope that is not the case at all. You don't nerf other classes to make another class seem better. Terrible way to do things.

They nerfed the wizard repeatedly while making other classes better, to the point where playing a wizard in a party relegates you to a debuff bot or a "cleaner" for low level encounters.

And yet you still find people telling you that because you deal a lot of damage to weak mobs in with an aoe in a single round the wizard is a good class, never mind the fact the melee characters could just mop them all up without expending anything (it would just take them a few extra rounds to do so).

[YuriP]

After kineticist release theses AoE excuses becomes way more weaker IMO.

[Old_Man_Robot]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I can't imagine this is the final form. If that is, then that is some seriously terrible design decisions. So I hope it is not.

I'm going to avoid the wishful thinking on this one.

Unless we see something pretty good over GenCon, I don't think we should expect anything major to compensate for the Curriculum changes.

I'm not sure why, but the Schools not even granting a skill really makes me feel like this hasn't been the considered change we were all expecting.

Very happy to be proven wrong however!

[Blave]

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

I'm not sure why, but the Schools not even granting a skill really makes me feel like this hasn't been the considered change we were all expecting.

I'm fine with schools granting no spells IF they finally get rid if the "wizards have high int so they get very few trained skills" nonsense.

[Ravingdork]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Remaining optimistic that there are factors that we are not seeing that will be entering play here.

Honestly can't see destroying an iconic class when raising other classes *to* that power level would be more fun for everyone.

Imagine if they made the absolutely horrendous decision to nerf every other class to make the wizard seem better. Oh my goodness that would be like stabbing a knife in your own game's heart. I hope that is not the case at all. You don't nerf other classes to make another class seem better. Terrible way to do things.

Indeed.

[Xenocrat]

I guess they were worried about too much enthusiasm headed into GenCon and decided to fix it this way.

[Temperans]

Is it just me or are the names now kind of meaningless? I don't know why, but it feels like stuff that was self explanatory is now more complicated for a worse effect. Maybe new players wont have an issue with the names, but it feels like letter/word soup to me.

Also I feel vindicated, I said that they would be nerfing spells and people were adamant it wouldn't happen. Yet here we are with nerf spells on the horizon.

I knew losing schools of magic was going to be bad, but man actually seeing it really does hit. Those terms may have seem dumb for some, but they were useful to consentrate rules that apply to a wide variety of spells into one easy to find section. Also a shame that they really did get rid of spell components, that was part of what made Pathfinder an interesting game.

Finally, I am going to make these predictions: The witch changes will end up being nothing burgers, martials are going to get a buff some how, what used to be lawful and chaotic creatures will start to do things that they would never have done before "because look how different" (not a good thing in my eyes).

[dmerceless]

I will say, I don't dislike a lot of these changes.

Thunderburst is different from Shocking Grasp, but a pretty good blast.

Entangling Flora is one people are overlooking. It doesn't require plants anymore, becoming an amazing area control spell.

Howling Blizzard, even with the reduced damage, gets a huge area or both ground and air difficult terrain, and two great area shapes that you can switch between. I think that's worth it.

But then there are the Wizard changes. Just... what the hell, man? Wizard was already battered, shredded, whipped, set on fire and exploded from previous editions, and unless we're reeeally missing something, this is another nerf? The super limited list makes your bonus slots worth so much less. From all the possible realities, including just making Wizard a real 4-caster, this is probably the worst one.

[NECR0G1ANT]

The best Wizard build is currently a high-INT Imperial Sorcerer, and Player Core 1 won't change that.

I think paizo would rather have a class rhat was too weak rather than too strong, but I'm surprised to see a nerf to a low-tier class like the wizard after hearing great rhings about the kineticist.

I will say what held back the wizard (INT-based, prepared casting), can't really be addressed short of an edition change.

[Temperans]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

The best Wizard build is currently a high-INT Imperial Sorcerer, and Player Core 1 won't change that.

I think paizo would rather have a class rhat was too weak rather than too strong, but I'm surprised to see a nerf to a low-tier class like the wizard after hearing great rhings about the kineticist.

I will say what held back the wizard (INT-based, prepared casting), can't really be addressed short of an edition change.

Int based prepared casting is not what is holding back the wizard. The fact that you even think that's the issue shows you how much Paizo screwed the class and the Int stat.

[Skyduke]

Temperans wrote:

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

The best Wizard build is currently a high-INT Imperial Sorcerer, and Player Core 1 won't change that.

I think paizo would rather have a class rhat was too weak rather than too strong, but I'm surprised to see a nerf to a low-tier class like the wizard after hearing great rhings about the kineticist.

I will say what held back the wizard (INT-based, prepared casting), can't really be addressed short of an edition change.

Int based prepared casting is not what is holding back the wizard. The fact that you even think that's the issue shows you how much Paizo screwed the class and the Int stat.

Indeed.

Nerfing all aspects of magic will make the class based solely around magic so weak it's border useless, who would have thought.

The wizard is weak enough as is. But it's not enough, so let's make sure it's not even versatile anymore. Oh, and by the way, if you want to play a viable blaster, go kineticist (hint hint).

What's more baffling and borderline concerning is how much gloating and schadenfreude you will find on these boards concerning the current state of the wizard, really casting the idea that this was about balance in doubt.

[Unicore]

There are too many missing pieces from this pdf to make sense of what a wizard will actually look like. Are all other spells remaining mostly the same? I don’t think so. Not seeing any of the “attribute only” cantrips like daze and haunting hymn, we don’t know if all spells are excluding attributes to damage as default and if the reason why is because more classes are getting feats to boost spell damage, possibly by adding it back in.

People are saying cantrips are getting nerfed, but that is a pretty wild reaction to seeing one damaging cantrip which now has a way of casting it where it will do more damage than before. The range and areas of spells generally getting increased is also another question mark. After having played a high level Druid in an urban module, if adventure locations remain small rooms and hallways, increased areas just become dangers to the party, but if maps are getting bigger they n written material these number increases will be a big deal.

Many of the folks posting here have been skeptical of the wizard from day one, so it is not surprising to see further skepticism after the pdf dropped. If there are enough schools and guidance towards making your own, I have 0 concerns about the “curriculum nerf.” Many of the showcased spells heighten better than pre-remastery spells, so having good ones at level 1 will go a long way on the class that gets to auto heighten spells. I understand feeling nervous with only one showcased school, but this is too little information to make real assessment off of.

If wizards are limited just to their own school’s focus spells, and there are not additional focus spells available within the class, I too will be disappointed with that decision. The option to have spell affecting metamagic focus spells like the psychic amps, is unexploited design space that could have been really cool, and very wizardy in narrative. But it is also something that could still come later. I definitely want to see class feats before trying to really get a handle on what the new wizard looks like.

[Unicore]

Let’s not forget that Paizo regularly keeps some of the boosts from play tests a secret until release day since that tends to erase a lot of bad blood that arises from forum debates

[Xenocrat]

Temperans wrote:

Is it just me or are the names now kind of meaningless?

Yes, I miss Burning Hands, which added fire to your melee attacks, and Shocking Grasp, the enchantment school melee spell that stunned the target by making an inappropriate touch and mental assault at the same time. Plane Shift was my favorite wood working spell, hope the construction wizard gets it under the new name.

[Skyduke]

Unicore wrote:

There are too many missing pieces from this pdf to make sense of what a wizard will actually look like. Are all other spells remaining mostly the same? I don’t think so. Not seeing any of the “attribute only” cantrips like daze and haunting hymn, we don’t know if all spells are excluding attributes to damage as default and if the reason why is because more classes are getting feats to boost spell damage, possibly by adding it back in.

People are saying cantrips are getting beefed, but that is a pretty wild reaction to seeing one damaging cantrip which now has a way of casting it where it will do more damage than before. The range and areas of spells generally getting increased is also another question mark. After having played a high level Druid in an urban module, if adventure locations remain small rooms and hallways, increased areas just become dangers to the party, but if maps are getting bigger they n written material these number increases will be a big deal.

Many of the folks posting here have been skeptical of the wizard from day one, so it is not surprising to see further skepticism after the pdf dropped. If there are enough schools and guidance towards making your own, I have 0 concerns about the “curriculum nerf.” Many of the showcased spells heighten better than pre-remastery spells, so having good ones at level 1 will go a long way on the class that gets to auto heighten spells. I understand feeling nervous with only one showcased school, but this is too little information to make real assessment off of.

If wizards are limited just to their own school’s focus spells, and there are not additional focus spells available within the class, I too will be disappointed with that decision. The option to have spell affecting metamagic focus spells like the psychic amps, is unexploited design space that could have been really cool, and very wizardy in narrative. But it is also something that could still come later. I definitely want to see class feats before trying to really get a handle on what...

I strongly disagree with this.

By now anyone should be able to see that "wait and see", as far as wizards in 2e is concerned, will only lead to disappointment. Not that we can do anything about it, mind you, the books are probably already ready and printed.

But thinking "Come on, it can't be that bad"... Well, everytime I thought that it turned out to be even worse, so I'll go with that.

[Calliope5431]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Calliope5431 wrote:

The issue is with things like visions of danger and anything that deals damage over time. Either it gets a bonkers boost (unlikely) or they use the wording on dangerous sorcery and only boost spells "that deal damage and don't have a duration".

I'd really prefer the latter, but probably won't happen. It's blatantly stealing dangerous sorcery's damage boost and the sorcerer's niche as king of blasters, and it makes people who cast duration spells sad.

The sorcerer is absolutely not the king of blasting casting. Storm druids and maybe psychics do it better.

Honestly I've never really gotten the hype around storm druid. Tempest surge is nice against single targets, but it falls off later once fireball and chain lightning come online, and the druid feat support is just bad at supporting blasting. I prefer elemental sorcerer since elemental toss is an extremely nice thing to do with your third action and dangerous sorcery's buff applies to all blast spells.

But in the words of a stop-motion puppet in a 60s Christmas movie: "You eat what you like, and I'll eat what I like!"

[Xenocrat]

Unicore wrote:

Let’s not forget that Paizo regularly keeps some of the boosts from play tests a secret until release day since that tends to erase a lot of bad blood that arises from forum debates

I think it's Paizo's own preview, not forum debates, that is causing the bad blood here.

[Karneios]

Given that the ability mod has seemingly turned into extra dice, things like daze and haunting hymn I wouldn't be surprised if instead of ability mod they just get one dice of the heightened size (1d6 at base in the case of these two spells)

also ignition getting an increased dice size is not really a great buff so much as taking what oscillating wave psychic does with it already plus letting it effect the crit persistent damage and extending it to the rest of the classes and also it's only stronger if you consider fire better than piercing/slashing and don't think they'll increase gouging claw's crit bleed to also be d6 which I would be surprised if they don't (and even if they don't I'm not willing to use the crit effect on a spell attack spell to say wow what a buff)

[Ed Reppert]

Not b%@!*ing about wizards until I see the final product.

[Calliope5431]

Also I know it's just flavor text and I'm getting concerned over nothing, but does falling stars even work indoors or in aerial combat anymore?

Meteor swarm's "You call down four meteors that explode in a fiery blast" was vague enough that it could plausibly work anywhere, since you can always call them down from the ceiling if nothing else, and it says nothing about them needing to hit an object to detonate.

Falling stars' "You reach into the skies and call down an array of falling stars that explode upon colliding with the ground " is much more concrete. And sort of contradictory with the existence of a ceiling. Or having a fight in the sky where there's no ground to collide with.

[Captain Morgan]

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Karmagator wrote:

The "Your GM might allow you to swap or add other spells to your curriculum if they strongly fit the theme" part is going to be used very heavily I expect. I would have like an emphasis that this is heavily encouraged, because as-is this is a step back.

Unless your GM is okay with expanding it to a few hundred additional spells, there is no way this makes up for the loss.

The Curriculum Spells change is one of the worst possible versions of this change they could have opted for.

In addition to this, from the small preview we have of a School, it does not look to actually expand upon Wizard focus spells at all. There still looks to be only two, and, while this was just a preview, they chose two existing focus spells (one with a slight tweak) to show case.

I think we already had word that there won't be any changes to the Thesis' as well.

Honestly, I'm not even certain what they could do with the class feats alone to overcome the apparent chassis damage.

Hell, the school doesn't even grant an additional skill!

Compared to a Sorcerer Bloodline, this is overall poor.

I think you're overstating the impact of the curriculum change. You don't need a hundred additional spells. You just need one spell you want to prepare every day for each of your spell levels. The previewed school already has this without any GM introductions. No wizard can afford hundreds of spells in their book, and even if they could that's what your other slots are for. If I was going to prepare electric arc, lightning bolt, sudden Bolt, and chain lightning anyway, then being forced to do doesn't really change anything from a practical perspective.

It basically hinges on whether Paizo can consistently fill those lists with high tier spells. If they can, this has an added benefit of making the class friendlier to newbs who will now automatically have good spells available even if they make crappy choices otherwise. Which is also neat meta design if the curriculum feature serves as a lesson plan for the player, too.

I'm more concerned about the focus spells. Given their increased importance with the refocus change, the wizard seeming to get their old spells with veeeeery modest buffs is worrying. Hopefully they have some school agnostic focus spell feats available. Or something akin to order explorer or multifarious muse.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Temperans wrote:

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

The best Wizard build is currently a high-INT Imperial Sorcerer, and Player Core 1 won't change that.

I think paizo would rather have a class rhat was too weak rather than too strong, but I'm surprised to see a nerf to a low-tier class like the wizard after hearing great rhings about the kineticist.

I will say what held back the wizard (INT-based, prepared casting), can't really be addressed short of an edition change.

Int based prepared casting is not what is holding back the wizard. The fact that you even think that's the issue shows you how much Paizo screwed the class and the Int stat.

Well, I know INT is bad because the worst classes in 2E are the alchemist, witch, investigator (and possibly wizard now). Trained skills aren't quite as good as high Will saves or the combat-applicable social skills, plus it's easy to get the skills you actually use Trained.

Prepared casting (and Vancian casting as well) is bad for reasons that are too long to get into here, which isn't going to be corrected in Player Core 1.

[TheSageOfHours]

I will say that my excitement has been kinda gutted if thunderstrike is indeed new shocking grasp, Magus is my favorite class and that would just be a pointless kick in the teeth for no reason. Also I was excited for the thematic wizard schools but it seems like wizards are getting bizarrely nerfed unless there is something they are not showing.

[Xenocrat]

Shocking Grasp still exists. Cone of Cold still exists. Paizo just won't be publishing NPCs or items that refer to those spells anymore.

If your GM decides not to use pre-remastered Paizo options, that's a GM issue not a Paizo issue. If Shocking Grasp doesn't exist in your game, why are you sure that Magus will, either, until it gets a remastered version?

We'll have to see about PFS.

[Blave]

Captain Morgan wrote:

If I was going to prepare electric arc, lightning bolt, sudden Bolt, and chain lightning anyway, then being forced to do doesn't really change anything from a practical perspective.

Level 2 sudden bolt and level 3 lighting bolt aren't good things to prepare at level 10+.

That's also my gripe with most of the sorcerer bloodlines. The extra spells known are good nn theory, but most of them become obsolete after a few levels unless you learn them again at a higher level or burn one if your very limited signature spell picks on them.

I fear the same could come true for the wizard curriculums. The one previewed has some evergreen spells like sure strike (I assume that's true strike) which can fill all school slots up to level 9, but casting level 1 spells without a heighten effect from a high level slot doesn't feel good.

So it'll ultimately come down to the spell selection of the curriculums. There's potential for both greatness and disaster there. The one in the preview gets a solid "decent" for me in overall ranking. Not unusable but completely overshadowed by even the worst of thr old schools.

[Temperans]

Let's see, the option of any spell from a given category or the choice of a spell from a tiny list? Hmm I wonder which one is more versatile and interesting... such a difficult choice.

[Errenor]

Captain Morgan wrote:

I'm not worried about the Curriculum spells though. The School of Mentalism list contains some of the best illusion options in the game plus divination, including true strike, illusory creature, phantasmal killer and calamity. If you have a dud, you can heighten an old spell, or propose a thematic addition to the curriculum.

I'm very worried. It doesn't have THE best illusionist option, their bread and butter - Illusory Object. Where is it? Have they removed it from the game? It basically was the thing why illusionists were good. Of course if GMs don't unnecessarily restrict it.

Warped terrain is also miles better then Charming words/Push.
Of course, maybe Mentalist, being a bland blend of illusionist and enchanter, in not the new illusionist, and there's another one.

[YuriP]

Xenocrat wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Let’s not forget that Paizo regularly keeps some of the boosts from play tests a secret until release day since that tends to erase a lot of bad blood that arises from forum debates

I think it's Paizo's own preview, not forum debates, that is causing the bad blood here.

Honestly I'm starting to thing that this thing about Wizard's school was Paizo designers putting an "elephant in the room".

About cantrips I still thing they are nerfing all damage cantrips for some yet unknow reason. But I don't think they will stop in Ignite and Divine Lance.

The other spell change in general are just changes helps more in some situation but works worse in others with the notable exception of Falling Stars.

Xenocrat wrote:

Shocking Grasp still exists. Cone of Cold still exists. Paizo just won't be publishing NPCs or items that refer to those spells anymore.

If your GM decides not to use pre-remastered Paizo options, that's a GM issue not a Paizo issue.

We'll have to see about PFS.

PFS will use the remastered rules. This was already confirmed.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

dmerceless wrote:

I will say, I don't dislike a lot of these changes.

Thunderburst is different from Shocking Grasp, but a pretty good blast.

Entangling Flora is one people are overlooking. It doesn't require plants anymore, becoming an amazing area control spell.

Howling Blizzard, even with the reduced damage, gets a huge area or both ground and air difficult terrain, and two great area shapes that you can switch between. I think that's worth it.

But then there are the Wizard changes. Just... what the hell, man? Wizard was already battered, shredded, whipped, set on fire and exploded from previous editions, and unless we're reeeally missing something, this is another nerf? The super limited list makes your bonus slots worth so much less. From all the possible realities, including just making Wizard a real 4-caster, this is probably the worst one.

I can agree that Thunderburst is interesting, but it's ultimately a non-Storm Druid's Tempest Surge with a slight change in effect/damage types. It also invalidates Sudden Bolt (which, now that I think about it, similar to what they did with Howling Blizzard, maybe they took Sudden Bolt and Shocking Grasp and merged them into a single spell?), and removes what used to be a nice burst tool for the Magus with their Spellstrike (or rather, it's locked behind a feat and its overall effectiveness isn't all that strong as a result). There also isn't that many attack roll spells at 1st level, meaning it's a pretty significant change.

Entangling Flora is okay, all that's really changed is that it doesn't need specific environments for it to work (which is a nice boost from what it was, I suppose), but given that all it does is slightly restrict movement (or immobilize for 1 round if you're lucky), it does lose relevance after awhile when enemies either easily outpace the movement loss with a ridiculous amount of movement, or can fly and basically aren't really affected by it, or don't even need to move to decimate your party, and now allies who need to get in range are basically having to wade through the plants to actually affect the bad guy. It's honestly a poor man's Black Tentacles, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it will probably cease relevance by the time Black Tentacles comes online.

Howling Blizzard has the issue of the damage loss due to its control ability, which may or may not be relevant. The issue is they took two spells, and applied the worst of both aspects of these spells, and combined them into one effect. Yes, you can choose how you want to implement the spell, but we hardly see anyone going around and saying "Shadow Blast is the best blasting spell in the game!" with all of the versatility it has between its implementation, range, and damage types. It's still a mere 5D8 with enemies able to pick their more favored save. Same concept here: Sure, Howling Blizzard lets you do a conal attack or a burst, with difficult terrain, but it's only 10D6 (compared to the 12D6 it used to do, that's a 16% reduction in damage), and its relevance depends on the size of the battlefield, and where you originate the effect. If an enemy is already on top of you (such as when you cast the cone), the difficult terrain isn't very helpful. If allies are within your cone, you're now causing friendly fire. And if an enemy is at the edge of the burst (because you need to affect as many targets as you can), again, the difficult terrain isn't very helpful. At that point, a heightened Fireball or even a Lightning Bolt will be just as effective, assuming no resistances/weaknesses are present.

Also, I can understand people sleeping on Falling Stars (AKA Meteor Swarm), because it's a lategame spell that most people haven't used (or won't use), but I'm referencing this as an example of taking an OGL/outdated spell and making it better than its source material, because honestly, Meteor Swarm was lacking in its applications, and while it's still relegated to larger battlefields, increasing its potential target relevance by changing damage types is a serious step in the right direction, and it has plenty of flavor to go with it.

[Errenor]

Temperans wrote:

Also a shame that they really did get rid of spell components, that was part of what made Pathfinder an interesting game.

They actually still haven't said what that did with 'speaking loudly' requirement. Even in this preview. For Manipulate we have similarity with somatic, but not here.

dmerceless wrote:

Entangling Flora is one people are overlooking. It doesn't require plants anymore, becoming an amazing area control spell.

I noticed, but I won't cheer that they fixed what shouldn't have been broken from the start. That Entangle's requirement was stupid. Now it's ok.

[Xenocrat]

YuriP wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

We'll have to see about PFS.

PFS will use the remastered rules. This was already confirmed.

That's not the question. Will they abandon all rules options pre-remastered? That's several classes, not just spells they renamed and changed in Player Core. I don't see that happening. If you have a Magus casting Shocking Grasp now, I think you will be able to PFS next spring.

[WWHsmackdown]

Xenocrat wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Is it just me or are the names now kind of meaningless?

Yes, I miss Burning Hands, which added fire to your melee attacks, and Shocking Grasp, the enchantment school melee spell that stunned the target by making an inappropriate touch and mental assault at the same time. Plane Shift was my favorite wood working spell, hope the construction wizard gets it under the new name.

I didn't like everything in that pdf, but breathing fire is definitely cooler to me than wiggling fire out of your outstretched fingies

[SuperBidi]

YuriP wrote:

Unless the wizard get more spell slots or these focus spells become something super cool, or nerf the universalists and the sorcerers probably this will force even more the players to play as universalist or as a sorcerer.

Is the Universalist staying? I heard a lot of about schools but nothing about Universalist. I was expecting the option to just go away and the new Wizard to combine both the Universalist feature and the School feature. That'll make the Wizard a 4-slot caster with a recast, putting it at its expected position as "best at casting lots of spells".

I hardly think Paizo nerfed the Wizard, that would be preposterous.

[FlySkyHigh]

Xenocrat wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

We'll have to see about PFS.

PFS will use the remastered rules. This was already confirmed.

That's not the question. Will they abandon all rules options pre-remastered? That's several classes, not just spells they renamed and changed in Player Core. I don't see that happening. If you have a Magus casting Shocking Grasp now, I think you will be able to PFS next spring.

Yeah that's the big question.

I also wish they'd include a more easily accessible list of "this is supposed to replace this" for the spells, because I *think* know what each of them is replacing, but honestly until I read this thread I had no inkling that Thunderstrike would/might be replacing Shocking Grasp.

[Unicore]

I think that this whole remastery situation is trying to make the best of a less than ideal situation from the beginning. This isn't how any company wants to make big changes to the product that they have built their reputation around, and there is still no 100% certainty that Wizards of the Coast is signing off on not litigating once the ORC books get published. That has to be nerve wracking, especially as you have internet debates popping up with all kinds of speculation before any products are actually released. I can feel for all the folks at Paizo.

I am not sure that there even ever was going to be a right way to completely redesign a game in the middle of an edition that has just blown up in popularity, excitement and good will. Minefields abound.

But I think it is very challenging for the fandom to keep getting mixed messages about the extent of changes, and then glimpses of some of those changes when many of them feel like they have to connect to other things that are not yet known. With so many books already published under the PF2 ruleset, it is very difficult right now to know what, if any content from books like secrets of magic, dark archive, gods and magic, Lost Omens books and APs are going to be useable in the remastered game, and the idea of a RAW system pretty much goes out the window for at least a couple of years. PFS will have its own decisions to make about all of this stuff and some players will insist that is the "official" way, but it will just be the society folks doing the best they can to hold things together until all the dust settles. At this point, if you have the OGL books, and you don't like the changes of the remastery, you just don't use them, or you only use the ones you like, because if you are in the middle of a campaign right now anyway, remaking half the characters is going to be nearly impossible and you don't have any ORC remastery adventures to run anyway (that are giving ORC gear and using ORC creatures, etc).

I definitely am not planning on changing any of my existing campaigns over into trying to use the conversion PDF guidelines and I don't even imagine I will switch to remastered content until at least the 2nd player core is out. I will probably wait to do any more homebrewing/campaign designing until the remastery is fully settled and stick with published material for the next 2 years anyway, which isn't really dependent on what changes are coming. If there are some cool items or spells I want to add to the mix, I very well might, but I am not going to be telling anyone that they can't build their thaumaturge character that they have been wanting to play since Dark Archive came out, or other OGL material content. I get that Paizo has to be pretty on top of switching to ORC as fast as possible but I don't know why anyone's home table should be worried about it.

[Dexter Coffee]

This preview emotionally makes me more miserable than that one time the save macros in a vtt game I was in were broken for a few session without any of us realizing and never/rarely had a enemy fail for quite a while.

[Old_Man_Robot]

Captain Morgan wrote:

I think you're overstating the impact of the curriculum change. You don't need a hundred additional spells. You just need one spell you want to prepare every day for each of your spell levels.

If you think this way, you you should be playing a spontaneous caster instead.

Prepared casting, for all its faults in this edition, at least allowed for greater versatility. Now, one such source of that versatility is being greatly diminished.

Captain Morgan wrote:

No wizard can afford hundreds of spells in their book, and even if they could that's what your other slots are for.

I may not be able to afford hundreds, but could I afford 40? You bet! Even with a pretty permissive GM, 40 is near double what these pre-defined list gives you.

[Unicore]

The good news is that a wizard can still learn any arcane spell they want and have at least 3 spell slots per level to memorize them in. SO if you want to buy every common spell in the game and use your spell substitution thesis to swap them in when you need them, you still will be able to. You are only going to need one spell per level to fit into some theme that hopefully you get a fair bit of choice about picking for your character. The heightening mechanics of these sampled spells are generally better than the OLG PF2 spells. Also, talk to your GM. Put your own theme together and things will be probably be fine.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Xenocrat wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

We'll have to see about PFS.

PFS will use the remastered rules. This was already confirmed.

That's not the question. Will they abandon all rules options pre-remastered? That's several classes, not just spells they renamed and changed in Player Core. I don't see that happening. If you have a Magus casting Shocking Grasp now, I think you will be able to PFS next spring.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. This both promotes the Remaster while simultaneously avoids OGL complications, so why wouldn't they?

If people want to play Magus and Shocking Grasp at their home games, that's up to them, but I suspect PFS doesn't have that kind of liberty.

They have to address this sort of thing with an update anyway, so until that happens, it's all merely speculation.

[Errenor]

Captain Morgan wrote:

I think you're overstating the impact of the curriculum change. You don't need a hundred additional spells. You just need one spell you want to prepare every day for each of your spell levels. The previewed school already has this without any GM introductions. No wizard can afford hundreds of spells in their book, and even if they could that's what your other slots are for.

I compared what they offer for the mentalist with the 4th slot list I made for my current 9th level illusionist. Of course, I tried to select more or less generally useful spells in there plus a little experimentation. And the result is - zero overlap. I can't recreate him with that school. And it already was an optimized set, more or less. Remaking it would make it worse (for me, following illusionist theme).

[Xenocrat]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

We'll have to see about PFS.

PFS will use the remastered rules. This was already confirmed.

That's not the question. Will they abandon all rules options pre-remastered? That's several classes, not just spells they renamed and changed in Player Core. I don't see that happening. If you have a Magus casting Shocking Grasp now, I think you will be able to PFS next spring.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. This both promotes the Remaster while simultaneously avoids OGL complications, so why wouldn't they?

If people want to play Magus and Shocking Grasp at their home games, that's up to them, but I suspect PFS doesn't have that kind of liberty.

They have to address this sort of thing with an update anyway, so until that happens, it's all merely speculation.

PFS is set up as a separate entity that is not owned by Paizo, and any OGL issues would be with respect to Paizo selling OGL products. Players using past OGL products in PFS isn't a legal issue for Paizo. The remaster is so that they can't get their future sales cut off and potentially sales of existing in print stuff. Old stuff being played isn't a problem.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Unicore wrote:

The good news is that a wizard can still learn any arcane spell they want and have at least 3 spell slots per level to memorize them in. SO if you want to buy every common spell in the game and use your spell substitution thesis to swap them in when you need them, you still will be able to. You are only going to need one spell per level to fit into some theme that hopefully you get a fair bit of choice about picking for your character. The heightening mechanics of these sampled spells are generally better than the OLG PF2 spells. Also, talk to your GM. Put your own theme together and things will be probably be fine.

I don't think Spell Substitution would let you prepare those bonus slots in ways you otherwise couldn't normally, since the benefit to this is that it lets you re-prepare spells mid-adventuring day, whereas you otherwise could not before.

There's also Spell Blending, which lets you take those unwanted spell slots and merge them into generic higher level ones. As well as the option to remove one of your unwanted spell slots to turn them into 2 cantrips of your choice, so even if you have a lower level spell slot you don't like and can't blend it upward, there are options.

That being said, I'd rather not treat a Wizard Thesis as "Here's how you can avoid the pitfalls of your school choices," of which a couple of them don't really address at all, and more like "Here's how you can manipulate your spell slots in ways others can't." In my opinion, I'd rather treat the school choices as bonus spells learned per spell rank/class level, and the option to spontaneously cast into them at any given level, instead of "Here's what your bonus slots can be from this limited and likely pretty bad list that you have to beg your GM to rectify."

[Old_Man_Robot]

SuperBidi wrote:

Is the Universalist staying? I heard a lot of about schools but nothing about Universalist.

On the PaizoCon stream, Michael Sayre said that there won't be a Universalist School with a curriculum, but there will instead be something called "Unified Magical Theory". But no further details were given about it.

So I don't think we're going to see the features of the current universalist rolled into the Wizard as a whole.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Xenocrat wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

We'll have to see about PFS.

PFS will use the remastered rules. This was already confirmed.

That's not the question. Will they abandon all rules options pre-remastered? That's several classes, not just spells they renamed and changed in Player Core. I don't see that happening. If you have a Magus casting Shocking Grasp now, I think you will be able to PFS next spring.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. This both promotes the Remaster while simultaneously avoids OGL complications, so why wouldn't they?

If people want to play Magus and Shocking Grasp at their home games, that's up to them, but I suspect PFS doesn't have that kind of liberty.

They have to address this sort of thing with an update anyway, so until that happens, it's all merely speculation.

PFS is set up as a separate entity that is not owned by Paizo, and any OGL issues would be with respect to Paizo selling OGL products. Players using past OGL products in PFS isn't a legal issue for Paizo. The remaster is so that they can't get their future sales cut off and potentially sales of existing in print stuff. Old stuff being played isn't a problem.

Okay, but they'll still want to promote the Remaster, so my guess is that they will take anything replaced by the Remaster and make them the new standard, while keeping other content still existing, but being effectively "paywalled" by requiring the relevant book(s) owned by the players.

[SuperBidi]

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Is the Universalist staying? I heard a lot of about schools but nothing about Universalist.

On the PaizoCon stream, Michael Sayre said that there won't be a Universalist School with a curriculum, but there will instead be something called "Unified Magical Theory". But no further details were given about it.

So I don't think we're going to see the features of the current universalist rolled into the Wizard as a whole.

I hardly think the Wizard will be nerfed. And considering how Schools are nerfed, I don't expect the Unified Magical Theory to keep the Universalist bonus as it would be way imbalanced. I definitely expect the Universalist Bonded Item as a class feature.

[Old_Man_Robot]

Unicore wrote:

The good news is that a wizard can still learn any arcane spell they want and have at least 3 spell slots per level to memorize them in.

You're right! I should be thankful they didn't... make the Wizard not be able to prepare spells anymore...?

What actually is the point you are trying to make here? Remaining at least a 3 slot prepared caster was always staying on the table. This aspect was never in doubt.

Its the value of the 4th slot which has greatly diminished.

Unicore wrote:

You are only going to need one spell per level to fit into some theme that hopefully you get a fair bit of choice about picking for your character.

From what we've seen, that "fair bit of choice" has capped at about 18 non-cantrip spells. This is compared to potentially hundreds of options with the old school slot. Even if you GM triples the choices of school, its still less.

Unicore wrote:

Also, talk to your GM. Put your own theme together and things will be probably be fine.

I could already do that anyway.

[Old_Man_Robot]

SuperBidi wrote:

I hardly think the Wizard will be nerfed.

I hope you are right.

As of this moment in time, it has been nerfed. We're just waiting to see what else happens with it, if anything, and if it offsets what we currently know.

SuperBidi wrote:

And considering how Schools are nerfed, I don't expect the Unified Magical Theory to keep the Universalist bonus as it would be way imbalanced. I definitely expect the Universalist Bonded Item as a class feature.

It would certainly be an interesting inclusion. Pseudo 5th slot via a use of your Bonded Item per level would certainly offset the loss of versatility from the School spell to a certain degree.

[Lurker in Insomnia]

I wish I could be confident that the Curriculum spells might add options that are no longer Arcane. If they added mental/material spells that were on the Occult/Primal lists, for example. Or they had more uncommon spells that you couldn't simply select by leveling up.

But as much as I was hoping they would silo the lists more in line with the Essences that make up the Traditions... There is Invoke Spirits which isn't just Divine and Occult, it is Arcane as well. Sigh.

My hope here is that Wizard class abilities make them better at magical stuff than other casting classes. Clerics do more with divine powers, sorcerers do more with bloodline specific stuff, but wizards should be good at magic beyond just spells.

Better spell countering, better ritual use, using Arcane for crafting scrolls and potions automatically instead of the crafting skill and a feat, these sorts of things.

Maybe spells specifically wouldn't be a remastered wizard's schtick, but if that is the case magic itself should be.

[YuriP]

Xenocrat wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

We'll have to see about PFS.

PFS will use the remastered rules. This was already confirmed.

That's not the question. Will they abandon all rules options pre-remastered? That's several classes, not just spells they renamed and changed in Player Core. I don't see that happening. If you have a Magus casting Shocking Grasp now, I think you will be able to PFS next spring.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. This both promotes the Remaster while simultaneously avoids OGL complications, so why wouldn't they?

If people want to play Magus and Shocking Grasp at their home games, that's up to them, but I suspect PFS doesn't have that kind of liberty.

They have to address this sort of thing with an update anyway, so until that happens, it's all merely speculation.

PFS is set up as a separate entity that is not owned by Paizo, and any OGL issues would be with respect to Paizo selling OGL products. Players using past OGL products in PFS isn't a legal issue for Paizo. The remaster is so that they can't get their future sales cut off and potentially sales of existing in print stuff. Old stuff being played isn't a problem.

Anyway they have to change.

PFS has already warned that it will migrate to the new material as if it were an errata and regardless of that, Paizo will inevitably stop printing the OGL material and all other books will gradually become ORC. There is no other way out for them.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Lurker in Insomnia wrote:

I wish I could be confident that the Curriculum spells might add options that are no longer Arcane. If they added mental/material spells that were on the Occult/Primal lists, for example. Or they had more uncommon spells that you couldn't simply select by leveling up.

But as much as I was hoping they would silo the lists more in line with the Essences that make up the Traditions... There is Invoke Spirits which isn't just Divine and Occult, it is Arcane as well. Sigh.

My hope here is that Wizard class abilities make them better at magical stuff than other casting classes. Clerics do more with divine powers, sorcerers do more with bloodline specific stuff, but wizards should be good at magic beyond just spells.

Better spell countering, better ritual use, using Arcane for crafting scrolls and potions automatically instead of the crafting skill and a feat, these sorts of things.

Maybe spells specifically wouldn't be a remastered wizard's schtick, but if that is the case magic itself should be.

If the school spells included spells not normally a part of the Arcane tradition, I think it would create issues with the class' design of "coloring within the lines," so to speak. I can accept Clerics getting exclusive spells to their Divine list because of their deity, and Sorcerers/Witches getting exclusive spells from their Bloodline/Patron, but Wizards don't have that kind of "list cheating" within their class' M.O., and their existing feats don't work that way, meaning expecting Paizo to do a 180 on this kind of logic doesn't track.

As for being better with magic, the problem is that magic is largely composed of spells, and very rarely is it composed of items or inherent abilities. Wizards aren't known to be inherently magical, they are known to be studiers of magic and spells. It also creates an issue of "Wizards are better spellcasters than others" when this edition doesn't strive to do that.

It might have been feasible if Wizard was treated like Fighter in terms of proficiencies (capping at Legendary whereas others capped at Master), but that ship has long sailed.