Remastered Wizard reveals and speculation


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

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Temperans wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Rysky wrote:
It's rather telling, in the original playtest for Second edition that pretty much no one noticed there was no rules for Sunder anymore until the playtest was over.

People did notice during the playtest and there were threads about it. In fact there are 157 instances of "Sunder" if you search the playtest forum.

People also certainly noticed that you cannot strike objects unless told otherwise.

Ah so I misremembered, it was noticed in August, close to the Playtest's end.

Also I only found 95 instances of "Sunder" mentioned, a bunch of which aren't even referring to the action (and also taking into acount a lot of posts are quoting previous posts).

So it was only noticed near the end and there wasn't a lot of noise over it.

The point is people noticed. Also no idea how are getting just 95 when I am getting 152 (previous number was a typo).

Also what are you talking about it being near the end? The first post about sunder is from August 2, 2018 which is the official start of the playtest. People were still talking about it March 2019.

Whether 95 or 152, it is an incredibly minute amount of posts compared to the deluge of posts that was the PF2 playtest.

Including the posts and threads that got deleted by the mods of course.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Rysky wrote:
It's rather telling, in the original playtest for Second edition that pretty much no one noticed there was no rules for Sunder anymore until the playtest was over.

People did notice during the playtest and there were threads about it. In fact there are 157 instances of "Sunder" if you search the playtest forum.

People also certainly noticed that you cannot strike objects unless told otherwise.

Ah so I misremembered, it was noticed in August, close to the Playtest's end.

Also I only found 95 instances of "Sunder" mentioned, a bunch of which aren't even referring to the action (and also taking into acount a lot of posts are quoting previous posts).

So it was only noticed near the end and there wasn't a lot of noise over it.

The point is people noticed. Also no idea how are getting just 95 when I am getting 152 (previous number was a typo).

Also what are you talking about it being near the end? The first post about sunder is from August 2, 2018 which is the official start of the playtest. People were still talking about it March 2019.

Whether 95 or 152, it is an incredibly minute amount of posts compared to the deluge of posts that was the PF2 playtest.

Including the posts and threads that got deleted by the mods of course.

I was not making a big deal of the amount. I originally mention it to say "it was not just 1 person" and "there was at least a few conversations about it".

The "idk how you are getting 95 but me 152" is me being honest. I have no idea how we are getting different numbers.

As for this entire side conversation. It started with rysky saying that nobody talked about it until after the playtest. I prove that was not the case. They responded saying it was end of playtest. I once again proved that was not the case, it was from the very beginning.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

I hate hidden meta rules like this.

If it's intended to be in the GM's wheelhouse like many of you claim, then the rules should have said as much.

CRB 267, 515 and, 577 do give a lot of information. In general, various quotes:

Pg 272
An item can be broken or destroyed if it takes enough damage. Every item has a Hardness value. Each time an item takes damage, reduce any damage the item takes by its Hardness. The rest of the damage reduces the item’s Hit Points. Normally an item takes damage only when a creature is directly attacking it—commonly targeted items include doors and traps. A creature that attacks you doesn’t normally damage your armor or other gear, even if it hits you. However, the Shield Block reaction can cause your shield to take damage as you use it to prevent damage to yourself, and some monsters have exceptional abilities that can damage your items.

Pg 515 A character might want to smash their way through a door, a window, or certain walls. The Hardness, Hit Point, and broken Threshold values provided in the table below are based on the material the structure is typically made out of, so a portcullis made of iron, for example, has a higher Hardness than one of wood. For more on damaging objects, see page 272.

Strong walls, such as well-maintained masonry or hewn stone, can’t be broken without dedicated work and proper tools. Getting through such walls requires downtime.

So we generally know attended objects are not meant to be targetable but unattended objects are intended to be smashable, with the exception of reinforced structures that require downtime and special tools. All we really lack is AC, but if you just treat an object as AC 10 but immune to critical hits you're usually fine.

If anything, what I think confused the issue is immobile hazards which explicitly gave higher ACs and saving throws which don't entirely make sense.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A thousand post a day threads are pretty much like the larger Discord communities. I don't visit the Discord communities much because having a discussion is practically impossible. Trying to find or pick up an older discussion is also nigh impossible. It all just becomes noise and emoji storms.

Reddit is a bit better, in terms of pacing and practicality.


Ravingdork wrote:

A thousand post a day threads are pretty much like the larger Discord communities. I don't visit the Discord communities much because having a discussion is practically impossible. Trying to find or pick up an older discussion is also nigh impossible. It all just becomes noise and emoji storms.

Reddit is a bit better, in terms of pacing and practicality.

This site is a more traditional forum. It has the advantage of being able to discuss difficult topics without being voted down by a vocal or emotional majority. The down side of course being it is harder to ignore idiots. That there is no ranking of posts is good and bad.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

A thousand post a day threads are pretty much like the larger Discord communities. I don't visit the Discord communities much because having a discussion is practically impossible. Trying to find or pick up an older discussion is also nigh impossible. It all just becomes noise and emoji storms.

Reddit is a bit better, in terms of pacing and practicality.

This site is a more traditional forum. It has the advantage of being able to discuss difficult topics without being voted down by a vocal or emotional majority. The down side of course being it is harder to ignore idiots. That there is no ranking of posts is good and bad.

Though I prefer Reddit to Discord, I prefer this forum to Reddit for that very reason.

The mob mentality those systems encourage does a great deal of harm to the world.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

A thousand post a day threads are pretty much like the larger Discord communities. I don't visit the Discord communities much because having a discussion is practically impossible. Trying to find or pick up an older discussion is also nigh impossible. It all just becomes noise and emoji storms.

Reddit is a bit better, in terms of pacing and practicality.

This site is a more traditional forum. It has the advantage of being able to discuss difficult topics without being voted down by a vocal or emotional majority. The down side of course being it is harder to ignore idiots. That there is no ranking of posts is good and bad.

Though I prefer Reddit to Discord, I prefer this forum to Reddit for that very reason.

The mob mentality those systems encourage does a great deal of harm to the world.

To be fair, the favorite system of this forum is often used to that very end as well. It's just more subtle about it, since it serves a (technical) double purpose.


Ravingdork wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

A thousand post a day threads are pretty much like the larger Discord communities. I don't visit the Discord communities much because having a discussion is practically impossible. Trying to find or pick up an older discussion is also nigh impossible. It all just becomes noise and emoji storms.

Reddit is a bit better, in terms of pacing and practicality.

This site is a more traditional forum. It has the advantage of being able to discuss difficult topics without being voted down by a vocal or emotional majority. The down side of course being it is harder to ignore idiots. That there is no ranking of posts is good and bad.

Though I prefer Reddit to Discord, I prefer this forum to Reddit for that very reason.

The mob mentality those systems encourage does a great deal of harm to the world.

Its also nice that all parts of this forum will remain up even if you cannot post because the thread is locked. Unlike reddit where the PF1 subreddit is perfectly accessible, but the PF2 subreddit cannot be accessed at all because boycott.

Silver Crusade

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They should do like DNDMemes and go NSFW.

Scarab Sages

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Temperans wrote:
Its also nice that all parts of this forum will remain up even if you cannot post because the thread is locked. Unlike reddit where the PF1 subreddit is perfectly accessible, but the PF2 subreddit cannot be accessed at all because boycott.

The PF2 subreddit is open. It's only inaccessible on Tuesdays.


NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Its also nice that all parts of this forum will remain up even if you cannot post because the thread is locked. Unlike reddit where the PF1 subreddit is perfectly accessible, but the PF2 subreddit cannot be accessed at all because boycott.
The PF2 subreddit is open. It's only inaccessible on Tuesdays.

Point stands. Someone goes in on the wrong date and they would not know that.


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Temperans wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Its also nice that all parts of this forum will remain up even if you cannot post because the thread is locked. Unlike reddit where the PF1 subreddit is perfectly accessible, but the PF2 subreddit cannot be accessed at all because boycott.
The PF2 subreddit is open. It's only inaccessible on Tuesdays.
Point stands. Someone goes in on the wrong date and they would not know that.

A nice popup window explains why the subreddit is not accessible on that particular day.


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When you go the subreddit on Tuesdays it actually tells you the subreddit is closed down on Tuesday so they would quickly learn that


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think when a thread becomes a discussion about the operational procedure of a completely different website and that some folks seem to be sticking around to win argument points instead of discuss anything close to the original topic, the thread is probably dead.

I am very curious about what the remastered wizard is going to look like but it seems like everything has been said on the matter until we learn more.


Unicore wrote:

I think when a thread becomes a discussion about the operational procedure of a completely different website and that some folks seem to be sticking around to win argument points instead of discuss anything close to the original topic, the thread is probably dead.

I am very curious about what the remastered wizard is going to look like but it seems like everything has been said on the matter until we learn more.

Yeah, knowing more would honestly be great.

Dark Archive

Are we expecting to get anything more until the previews start in September?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Maybe Gen con?


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Gen Con would be my bet for any new info, yeah.

Grand Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:
Dexter Coffee wrote:
Unicore wrote:
They said the thesis is staying.

Is spell sub still a thesis, always felt like it should have been a feat or a baseline class feature. Real feels bad thesis for me because one of my favorite things to do is switch out spells, but not really fun enough (I guess that's how I want to word it not sure) to be felt like a worthwhile choice.

Sigh, hard to put a feeling to words. "That's why you don't skip doing your essays in school kids." :/

Either way,
That and better and more fun focus spells and I'll be over the moon.

they moved it from being a feat to a thesis from the original playtest, so it is probably staying there.

Unicore, can you point me to where it was a feat in the playtest I can't find it for the life of me looking in the playtest book and all the various update 1.3-1.6.

Just for my own knowledge. It's bugging me I can't find it.

Edit: maybe it's in update 1.2, looks I don't have that one and can't find it at the moment.


Dexter Coffee wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Dexter Coffee wrote:
Unicore wrote:
They said the thesis is staying.

Is spell sub still a thesis, always felt like it should have been a feat or a baseline class feature. Real feels bad thesis for me because one of my favorite things to do is switch out spells, but not really fun enough (I guess that's how I want to word it not sure) to be felt like a worthwhile choice.

Sigh, hard to put a feeling to words. "That's why you don't skip doing your essays in school kids." :/

Either way,
That and better and more fun focus spells and I'll be over the moon.

they moved it from being a feat to a thesis from the original playtest, so it is probably staying there.

Unicore, can you point me to where it was a feat in the playtest I can't find it for the life of me looking in the playtest book and all the various update 1.3-1.6.

Just for my own knowledge. It's bugging me I can't find it.

Edit: maybe it's in update 1.2, looks I don't have that one and can't find it at the moment.

It used to be an optional feature of Arcanist.

Wizard's equivalent was letting them prepare a spell in an empty slot in 1 minutes. Or letting them prepare two spells, but and then picking which will be cast by spending the full round.

I don't remember that thesis being in the playtest at any point. Also I am pretty sure thesis were added for the final release.

Dark Archive

If the thesis is staying, unless its beefed up, or the additional changes to the Wizard make it otherwise too powerful, baking in Spell Substitution as a core mechanic will end up just being a house rule for my tables.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dexter Coffee wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Dexter Coffee wrote:
Unicore wrote:
They said the thesis is staying.

Is spell sub still a thesis, always felt like it should have been a feat or a baseline class feature. Real feels bad thesis for me because one of my favorite things to do is switch out spells, but not really fun enough (I guess that's how I want to word it not sure) to be felt like a worthwhile choice.

Sigh, hard to put a feeling to words. "That's why you don't skip doing your essays in school kids." :/

Either way,
That and better and more fun focus spells and I'll be over the moon.

they moved it from being a feat to a thesis from the original playtest, so it is probably staying there.

Unicore, can you point me to where it was a feat in the playtest I can't find it for the life of me looking in the playtest book and all the various update 1.3-1.6.

Just for my own knowledge. It's bugging me I can't find it.

Edit: maybe it's in update 1.2, looks I don't have that one and can't find it at the moment.

It was a 4th level wizard feat called "quick Preperation" in the playtest.


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Unicore wrote:

...

It was a 4th level wizard feat called "quick Preperation" in the playtest.
Playtest Rulebook, pg. 140 wrote:

Quick Preparation 4

You can spend 10 minutes to empty one of your prepared spell slots and prepare a different spell from your spellbook in its place. If you are interrupted during such a swap, the original spell remains prepared and can still be cast. You can try again to swap out the spell later, but you must start the process over again.

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Unicore wrote:

...

It was a 4th level wizard feat called "quick Preperation" in the playtest.
Playtest Rulebook, pg. 140 wrote:

Quick Preparation 4

You can spend 10 minutes to empty one of your prepared spell slots and prepare a different spell from your spellbook in its place. If you are interrupted during such a swap, the original spell remains prepared and can still be cast. You can try again to swap out the spell later, but you must start the process over again.

Eyes just kept passing over it for some reason, appreciate it.


Gisher wrote:
Unicore wrote:

...

It was a 4th level wizard feat called "quick Preperation" in the playtest.
Playtest Rulebook, pg. 140 wrote:

Quick Preparation 4

You can spend 10 minutes to empty one of your prepared spell slots and prepare a different spell from your spellbook in its place. If you are interrupted during such a swap, the original spell remains prepared and can still be cast. You can try again to swap out the spell later, but you must start the process over again.

I guess I really just had trouble remembering it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I had forgotten it had a different name as well. The playtest feels so long ago now


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Old_Man_Robot wrote:
If the thesis is staying, unless its beefed up, or the additional changes to the Wizard make it otherwise too powerful, baking in Spell Substitution as a core mechanic will end up just being a house rule for my tables.

Same here. Wizard's Spell Substitution should be a class feature, not a full thesis.

If they can't spontaneously cast, at least let them change out in 10 minutes to get needed spells as a class feature.


Subst specialist is an okay way for me

Dark Archive

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Gisher wrote:

In my opinion the schools of magic often involved a lot of overlap when it came to the classification of spells.

Barkskin, for example.

Quote:
The target's skin becomes covered in bark.

Sure, it's abjuration because it protects you, but it also sounds like it could fit into Transformation or maybe even Conjuration.

So I don't think it was ever true that spells were objectively assigned to clearly defined schools.

Very much agree. I've always been annoyed how some spells seem so clearly to belong in box A and are instead in box B. Mage Armor is Conjuration (despite conjuring no actual thing, just Force, which is usually Evocation?), not Abjuration? Cause Fear isn't Enchantment? Creating light or darkness is Evocation, but creating shadows or *colored* light is Illusion?

I'd much prefer a squiffier set of 'schools' in which a spell can exist in multiple categories.

Dark Archive

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Just saw a youtube video going over the Elementalist archetype updates from RoE, and it looks like it confirms some speculation we've had about wizard changes.

It looks like "School Spells" will remain the name of focus spells, but a new term "Curriculum Spells" has been introduced. Judging by what it modifies from the current Elementalist text, it looks like these Curriculum Spells will be the replacement for the Wizards bonus spell slot.

This suggests that each new school will have a either a defined list of curriculum spells, similar to a sorcerers bloodlines granted spells, or will be closer to what the Elementalist now gives, which is a board category.

If it is a defined list per school, that is a rather large blow to the versatility of the Wizard. Hopefully made up for by allowing access to spells not on the Arcane list, but a blow all the same.


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I wonder if curriculum slots will be able to be cast spontaneously. If I had a defined list of spells for my 4th slot but could pick them on the fly, that would be a huge boost to wizard.

Dark Archive

If it is a small list, some version of Signature-like spontaneous slot would be great.

Not sure if they’ll shift the Wizard away from being fully prepared though. Being a prepared caster has always been part and parcel of the Wizards identity.

But we’re changing that up, so who knows.

Scarab Sages

If a wizard is obligated to prepare a curriculum spell in one of their 4 spell slots, then the remaster wizard will likely be a downgrade or sidegrade.

If curriculum spells come with spontaneous casting, or even just added to your spellbook with 4 spell slots /day, then it might be decent.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

idk I feel like what the new focus spells end up looking like is going to be the bigger decider here.


Wizard/Sorcerer focus spells kinda have to actually be good with the new focus spell paradigm. Unless there's some information about it we haven't seen yet Druids are going to cast Tempest Surge three times every fight and the casters who are supposed to get more top level spells are gonna feel real bad.

Scarab Sages

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Did they say actually that everyone starts with 3 Focus Points? I also wouldn't count on tempest surge remaining the same as it is no. They might also make Focus Pools harder to expand.


Squiggit wrote:
idk I feel like what the new focus spells end up looking like is going to be the bigger decider here.

If they made 4th spell slot barely useful, no, focus spells won't be the bigger decider :(

In the old system, considering breadth of spell schools and heightening, 4th slot was almost free, you could (almost?) always put something useful there. Now, I'm not so sure anymore.


NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Did they say actually that everyone starts with 3 Focus Points? I also wouldn't count on tempest surge remaining the same as it is no. They might also make Focus Pools harder to expand.

Maximum focus point pool seems to work the exact same, but you can chain refocus 1-1-1 over 30 minutes if you have a maximum of 3, OR take a higher level feat that gives you your entire pool after a single refocus activity. Seems like starting with 1 and gaining 1 with a class feat that bestows a spell seems to be sticking around.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, the new refocus rules only matter if you have an easy path towards multiple focus spells. But it is a power boost to those classes that start with one and can’t start picking up more by level 2 or 4. It is like getting a level 12 + feat for free for those classes. I do hope wizards are not left in the cold or being forced into MCing to get to benefit from that.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Errenor wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
idk I feel like what the new focus spells end up looking like is going to be the bigger decider here.

If they made 4th spell slot barely useful, no, focus spells won't be the bigger decider :(

In the old system, considering breadth of spell schools and heightening, 4th slot was almost free, you could (almost?) always put something useful there. Now, I'm not so sure anymore.

4th slot is already fairly restrictive as is. Unless they make curriculum lists absolutely garbage, it'll probably be a wash.

And even if they do, it's still an extra spell slot over other prepared casters, and it'll still really come down to whether or not you have decent focus spells if that ends up being an advantage for the wizard or not.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Unicore wrote:
Yeah, the new refocus rules only matter if you have an easy path towards multiple focus spells. But it is a power boost to those classes that start with one and can’t start picking up more by level 2 or 4. It is like getting a level 12 + feat for free for those classes. I do hope wizards are not left in the cold or being forced into MCing to get to benefit from that.

That "can't" is an autocorrect typo I can not fix. The new refocus rules are a power boost for classes that get access to additional focus spells early, but is not so much of one for classes that have to wait until 6 or 8 to get their second spell.


nick1wasd wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Did they say actually that everyone starts with 3 Focus Points? I also wouldn't count on tempest surge remaining the same as it is no. They might also make Focus Pools harder to expand.
Maximum focus point pool seems to work the exact same, but you can chain refocus 1-1-1 over 30 minutes if you have a maximum of 3, OR take a higher level feat that gives you your entire pool after a single refocus activity. Seems like starting with 1 and gaining 1 with a class feat that bestows a spell seems to be sticking around.

I think RAW you can't actually 1-1-1 over 30 minutes because the Refocusing action requires you to have spent focus points since you last refocused.


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Pieces-Kai wrote:
nick1wasd wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Did they say actually that everyone starts with 3 Focus Points? I also wouldn't count on tempest surge remaining the same as it is no. They might also make Focus Pools harder to expand.
Maximum focus point pool seems to work the exact same, but you can chain refocus 1-1-1 over 30 minutes if you have a maximum of 3, OR take a higher level feat that gives you your entire pool after a single refocus activity. Seems like starting with 1 and gaining 1 with a class feat that bestows a spell seems to be sticking around.

I think RAW you can't actually 1-1-1 over 30 minutes because the Refocusing action requires you to have spent focus points since you last refocused.

Unicore is probably looking at Remastered focus in this example, where the cap on refocusing is removed

Dark Archive

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Well. Wizards got shafted it seems.

Straight-up downgrade with seemingly no saving graces.


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Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Well. Wizards got shafted it seems.

Straight-up downgrade with seemingly no saving graces.

I'm not surprised, though even if we did a 1:1 comparison to the pre-remaster Wizard, not much has changed in terms of the class' overall chassis. As I expected, because this would require Paizo to acknowledge there is a problem with the class, and short of some minor QoL changes to both simplify gameplay and avoid OGL lawsuits, nothing within the class has changed, which essentially means they don't find a problem with the class as it stands.

One thing I did like was how they changed Meteor Swarm to permit multiple damage types based on what you throw down at your enemies, including Sonic Damage as an option, which is pretty neat. Though other spells got completely downgraded/changed for the worse.

Shocking Grasp and Cone of Cold got nerfed in damage, and Wish got relegated to Ritual territory, with its "replicate any 9th level or lower" options being a separate spell entirely.


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Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Well. Wizards got shafted it seems.

Straight-up downgrade with seemingly no saving graces.

It feels like the saving grades are things that are going to be in the actual class features. The pdf that dropped today just handles the things that are obviously different in RoE, one of which is "spells don't have schools anymore" and "certain spells need new names."

If you're playing a Wizard right now you should probably not convert before you've seen the actual book. I mean, Arcane spells changing doesn't just hit the wizard, it hits the Magus and 25% of Witches, Sorcerers, and Summoners too.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Well. Wizards got shafted it seems.

Straight-up downgrade with seemingly no saving graces.

I'm not surprised, though even if we did a 1:1 comparison to the pre-remaster Wizard, not much has changed in terms of the class' overall chassis. As I expected, because this would require Paizo to acknowledge there is a problem with the class, and short of some minor QoL changes to both simplify gameplay and avoid OGL lawsuits, nothing within the class has changed, which essentially means they don't find a problem with the class as it stands.

One thing I did like was how they changed Meteor Swarm to permit multiple damage types based on what you throw down at your enemies, including Sonic Damage as an option, which is pretty neat. Though other spells got completely downgraded/changed for the worse.

Shocking Grasp and Cone of Cold got nerfed in damage, and Wish got relegated to Ritual territory, with its "replicate any 9th level or lower" options being a separate spell entirely.

I wasn't unhappy about the flexibility of the new cone of cold, but I was sort of horrified by the damage nerfbat on that and cantrips.

The new meteor swarm is the same damage as the old meteor swarm at least, meaning hopefully some of the good blaster spells like volcanic eruption and chain lightning will survive.

Hopefully alchemist doesn't also get nerfed. I'd have expected a boost for wizard rather than a dramatic reduction in specialization spell lists, so I'm kinda concerned...


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

"Nerfing Produce Flame" was not on my PF2R bingo card.

I want to say there's a mechanic we're missing here, because nerfing blasters is about the oddest thing Paizo could choose to do, but if there was something missing it'd probably be in the document so...


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Given what I've heard about the divine lance change it seems they are removing the ability mod from cantrip damage which is odd.


The only thing I can figure is that casters will actually be getting class features to make up for it. Something like dangerous sorcery. As opposed to their class features being "a pile of spells"

If it is just a straight nerf I'd probably just use the old blast spells though in my home game.

Also I didn't expect fire shield to get a nerf. What did it ever do to deserve that?

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