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So I think technically you can hold a polearm for bonus damage on ignition, because reach is defined like this:
"Reach is how far you can physically reach with your body or a weapon...your reach creates an area around your space where other creatures could trigger your reactions. Your reach is typically 5 feet but weapons with the reach trait can extend this."
It's dumb but pending remaster changing how reach works it's arguably fair game.
Pretty sure you can only benefit from weapon traits while actively wielding them, and not merely holding them or having them stowed on your person.
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That is an interesting thoughts though. Wizards as the Fighter equivalent. Having them start out with Expert to class bonuses and DCs is a nice pipe dream. Maybe they don't get anymore spells than other classes because whatever metaphysical reasons, but boy are they just GOOD at them.
That would be way out of line unless you massively nerf the Wizard on the side. Other casters don't get anything as good as a +2 to spell DC.
That is an interesting thoughts though. Wizards as the Fighter equivalent. Having them start out with Expert to class bonuses and DCs is a nice pipe dream. Maybe they don't get anymore spells than other classes because whatever metaphysical reasons, but boy are they just GOOD at them.That would be way out of line unless you massively nerf the Wizard on the side. Other casters don't get anything as good as a +2 to spell DC.
It would have worked if Spell DCs scaled the same as Martial weapon proficiencies. Obviously, it's a pipedream now since they made Spell DCs scale differently, though I wonder how different the game would be if this was an option proposed during the Core Rulebook playtest.
Just as well, Fighters have +2 to hit, and nobody is complaining that other martial classes are invalidated, so I don't see why a plain jane Wizard who gets +2 to Save DCs (at least with their chosen school at-first) is a problem if other classes get things to compensate, like higher proficiencies, good focus spells, better feats, etc.
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That is an interesting thoughts though. Wizards as the Fighter equivalent. Having them start out with Expert to class bonuses and DCs is a nice pipe dream. Maybe they don't get anymore spells than other classes because whatever metaphysical reasons, but boy are they just GOOD at them.That would be way out of line unless you massively nerf the Wizard on the side. Other casters don't get anything as good as a +2 to spell DC.
The ship has long sailed on something like that anyhow. There might have been room for something like that If most casting scaled to Master. But with every full caster going to Legendary, there is no “room” for additional scaling.
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The ship has long sailed on something like that anyhow. There might have been room for something like that If most casting scaled to Master. But with every full caster going to Legendary, there is no “room” for additional scaling.
I disagree. The only issue is to find a level 19 ability for the class with Expert proficiency right off the bat. Now, I think it'd be a massive ability and as such would need a class extremely limited in its features or ability to apply that bonus.
Just as well, Fighters have +2 to hit, and nobody is complaining that other martial classes are invalidated, so I don't see why a plain jane Wizard who gets +2 to Save DCs (at least with their chosen school at-first) is a problem if other classes get things to compensate, like higher proficiencies, good focus spells, better feats, etc.
The problem is that many spellcasters nearly only have spellcasting. The Sorcerer, obviously, but even classes like Oracle, Cleric, Witch, etc... have for first feature their spellcasting and then a few things on the side that are never going to compete with a +2 to spell DC. So you'd need a buff to all spellcasting classes in the game or a nerf to the Wizard to provide such a bonus.
Also, I think a lot of people are complaining about the Fighter being too strong and overshadowing other martials.
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But you only memorize one spell in any slot of any one level. Having 3 choices at level 1, 5 at level 2, 7 at level 3...etc, etc is only a problem if you don't like your choices. That is where having enough different schools focused around the spells that casters from that school would actually want to cast comes in. If you have an idea for a school that doesn't currently exist, pitch it to your GM. You will have plenty of the spells you want to put into that slot to choose from.
Everything else about the remastery change though (and really this point too) are still way too dependent upon unknowns to start trying to build characters around or make assumptions about how they will work.
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Casters choosing spells without talking to their GM about how they want to use them is the road to hurt feelings and misadjusted expectations. “Be cool with Schools” is good GM advice. If you really hate it, ask to just keep using your OGL wizard.
This really is a molehill issue. I get folks who are already worked up about wizards feeling bummed that big boosts don’t seem to be on the horizon, but there is not enough information here to let the PDF ruin your day.
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Casters choosing spells without talking to their GM about how they want to use them is the road to hurt feelings and misadjusted expectations. “Be cool with Schools” is good GM advice. If you really hate it, ask to just keep using your OGL wizard.
This really is a molehill issue. I get folks who are already worked up about wizards feeling bummed that big boosts don’t seem to be on the horizon, but there is not enough information here to let the PDF ruin your day.
I don't think that neither GMs would like having wizard players begging for some specific school spells and neither player would like to do this. Also makes no sense to have a universalist (Unified Magical Theory) if you always can ask to your GM to allow a spell.
I hardly think the Wizard will be nerfed.I hope you are right.
As of this moment in time, it has been nerfed. We're just waiting to see what else happens with it, if anything, and if it offsets what we currently know.
It would certainly be an interesting inclusion. Pseudo 5th slot via a use of your Bonded Item per level would certainly offset the loss of versatility from the School spell to a certain degree.
And considering how Schools are nerfed, I don't expect the Unified Magical Theory to keep the Universalist bonus as it would be way imbalanced. I definitely expect the Universalist Bonded Item as a class feature.
Unless the same designer is still at Paizo that said, "I want the wizard to be the weakling of PF2. I want you to make sure that happens. If I even begin to sniff the wizard being one of the better classes of PF2, I'm taking the nerf bat to the wizard." If that designer isn't still there, hopefully the wizard will turn out to be fun and powerful again.
If Paizo is hovering over the wizard designer making sure they are weak, then the wizard will continue to be the guy you'd be better off building an Imperial Sorcerer to be a wizard-like character.
Unless they nerf the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive.
So right now wizard and caster players will have to stress until the full remaster is available to look at.
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I don't know if they did this because they wanted to nerf the wizards. My best bet is that they don't get too much time to work in this and due the need to change many things in the game due license they had to remove the old school system and they simply made this because was simples to made and to adapt.
IMO my bet still that this is an "elephant in the room" and they are showing the "worst" part of the wizard first to make it impact sooner than when they show the rest we can accept more easily with others better modifications later.
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If you have an idea for a school that doesn't currently exist, pitch it to your GM.
Why is this always put forth as an answer when it wasn't even really required before for the class to function? Putting forth a "GM May I" mechanic on a class that was all about following and understanding the "rules" of magic and the Arcane is a significant change in both flavor and mechanics, which is for the worse I might add.
You don't see Clerics asking "GM May I" for some custom deity option. You don't see Sorcerers asking "GM May I" for some custom bloodline. You don't see Witches asking "GM May I" for some custom patron. You don't see Bards asking "GM May I" for some custom muse. You don't see Druids asking "GM May I" for some custom order. Why should Wizards be asking "GM May I" for some custom school of magic when other classes haven't had to do this?
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School is nothing like a bloodline or a muse or a patron. You still have access to a full range of arcane spells you can choose to learn. This is just some free spells you get to add to your book with the caveat that you get to memorize one of them per level. We don't even know the total number of schools we will get or how often they will add new ones yet.
If, as it seems, it is just not going to be that important a part of the class, (like there aren't going to be feats unique to specific schools, but just generic feats that interact with all schools equally), then they could be getting published regularly in APs and lost omen content as well because they require very little space and add regional flavor very easily. This seems like the intention behind the new school mechanic:
Get some spells you get to add to your book for free, and get one extra spell slot per level per day from amongst them, or build a universal school wizard where you probably just get to pick any spells you want to be in your school, but you don't learn any of them for free, so you have less total spells in your book, and the focus spells are a little more generic.
PF2 didn't do much with schools to start with so there really isn't as much being lost here as people are making it out to be. You still had to get access to your school spells to add them to your book, so usually 1 or 2 spells per level were the most spells you were getting for free to potentially fill your school slots with in the first place. I do have some reservations about what we have seen about the remastery but the school thing is below the bottom of the list. It will affect very little and probably add more Golarion flavor pretty quickly.
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Did someone seriously say that? Source? I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, for the record, just curious where it came from.
I hardly think the Wizard will be nerfed.I hope you are right.
As of this moment in time, it has been nerfed. We're just waiting to see what else happens with it, if anything, and if it offsets what we currently know.
It would certainly be an interesting inclusion. Pseudo 5th slot via a use of your Bonded Item per level would certainly offset the loss of versatility from the School spell to a certain degree.
And considering how Schools are nerfed, I don't expect the Unified Magical Theory to keep the Universalist bonus as it would be way imbalanced. I definitely expect the Universalist Bonded Item as a class feature.Unless the same designer is still at Paizo that said, "I want the wizard to be the weakling of PF2. I want you to make sure that happens. If I even begin to sniff the wizard being one of the better classes of PF2, I'm taking the nerf bat to the wizard." If that designer isn't still there, hopefully the wizard will turn out to be fun and powerful again.
If Paizo is hovering over the wizard designer making sure they are weak, then the wizard will continue to be the guy you'd be better off building an Imperial Sorcerer to be a wizard-like character.
Unless they nerf the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive.
So right now wizard and caster players will have to stress until the full remaster is available to look at.
No, man. No one said that.
The wizard took such a huge hammer to their power in PF2, I pictured a Paizo designer like The Cigarette Smoking Man in The X-Files saying, "I don't want the wizard to be powerful ever again while I'm alive" like when he said, "The Buffalo Bills never win a Super Bowl." Most will not get this reference as The X-Files is an old man show now.
But the gist is someone at Paizo tired of the wizard being the Super Man of PF1 decided to 100% make sure the PF2 wizard wasn't going to overshadow anyone. They went so far ensuring the wizard was not anything like PF1 that they hammer hit them too hard to make them weak.
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School is nothing like a bloodline or a muse or a patron. You still have access to a full range of arcane spells you can choose to learn. This is just some free spells you get to add to your book with the caveat that you get to memorize one of them per level. We don't even know the total number of schools we will get or how often they will add new ones yet.
If, as it seems, it is just not going to be that important a part of the class, (like there aren't going to be feats unique to specific schools, but just generic feats that interact with all schools equally), then they could be getting published regularly in APs and lost omen content as well because they require very little space and add regional flavor very easily. This seems like the intention behind the new school mechanic:
Get some spells you get to add to your book for free, and get one extra spell slot per level per day from amongst them, or build a universal school wizard where you probably just get to pick any spells you want to be in your school, but you don't learn any of them for free, so you have less total spells in your book, and the focus spells are a little more generic.
PF2 didn't do much with schools to start with so there really isn't as much being lost here as people are making it out to be. You still had to get access to your school spells to add them to your book, so usually 1 or 2 spells per level were the most spells you were getting for free to potentially fill your school slots with in the first place. I do have some reservations about what we have seen about the remastery but the school thing is below the bottom of the list. It will affect very little and probably add more Golarion flavor pretty quickly.
It's not, but what makes school a mechanic become more "GM May I" than any of those other ones? Also, "access to a full range of arcane spells you can choose to learn" only applies to your 3 base slots, not all 4 slots, and given that Sorcerer gets better innate benefits without having to compromise what they can use their slots on more than any other ones means a Wizard is paying their ability to prepare spells in the form of slot versatility to be worse than a Sorcerer is with their slots, which is just absolutely backwards design. "You can use these 3 slots for whatever, but this 4th one has to be one of these two spells, and nothing else" goes against the idea that a Wizard is basically the Batman of spellcasters, being able to prepare and plan for most every situation. At that point, Cleric and Druid are better prepared spellcasters because they don't have to compromise what they can prepare their spell slots with.
This doesn't work because you can't just retrain schools, or if you do, it takes a large amount of downtime (and gold/opportunity cost), and requires access to do so if they're Uncommon or Rare or Unique. Rarity-locking schools, while it makes sense from a setting standpoint, is problematic from a balance standpoint, because this often means these rarity-locked schools will likewise have rarity-locked spells, which is currently used for more than just "This form of spell is hard to find outside of these regions/options." For example, putting Teleport behind a rarity-locked school creates issues with the idea that the school in question is outright better than a similar school that simply doesn't have Teleport as an option, and plus, being able to learn that spell for free, instead of having to invest time and resources into simply getting access to it, is a form of power creep. Short of these having spells that the AP requires, and is only useful for that AP, I don't find locking schools behind rarity tags to be a feasible solution.
Supposition as to what the Unified Magical Theory does isn't really helpful, since odds are they will still maintain the "Arcane Bond can be used once per spell level per day instead of once per day" balance point, since this was a key differentiator between them, and the Remaster might be a step too far to change that balance point.
Not doing much with a mechanic is fine. They didn't do much with patrons or bloodlines in addition to schools, and people didn't complain that the class felt shafted compared to other classes. Really, the only complaint about schools was the focus spells were lackluster, which doesn't translate to "I have too many different types of spells to prepare in these bonus slots, please cut them down so I don't have decision paralysis!"
They did a fair amount with deities, though, since there is a lot of mix-and-match to be had with those mechanics, but given how fleshed out that is, schools would have to be similarly fleshed out if we want to have "cherry-picking" options like what deities currently are now for Clerics. And incidentally, Clerics are probably the weakest of the spellcasters that they implemented (though Witch is still slightly worse), even though they have the most highest level spell slots in the game, and have all of the customization presented to them.
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As much as I don't like "GM may I" since as GM I'm very permissive and when I play being unable to take choices I want makes me itch. I like the custom school idea just for the nonsense that pops in my head.
Potential Arcanium Applicant: "Look at all the spells they give you access to for being an alum so cool."
Recruiter of the Hodgepodge School of Whatever the Hell You Want: slugs whiskey and hits some Pesh "Don't do it kid, we got Slow, Summon Dragon, Horizon Thunder Sphere all the good s**t. You don't need those snooty a*******s help. Now, sign right here.
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Sorcerer gets better innate benefits without having to compromise what they can use their slots on more than any other ones means a Wizard is paying their ability to prepare spells in the form of slot versatility to be worse than a Sorcerer is with their slots, which is just absolutely backwards design. "You can use these 3 slots for whatever, but this 4th one has to be one of these two spells, and nothing else" goes against the idea that a Wizard is basically the Batman of spellcasters, being able to prepare and plan for most every situation. At that point, Cleric and Druid are better prepared spellcasters because they don't have to compromise what they can prepare their spell slots withI mean. Cleric kinda does have to compromise what they prepare their slots with. They get 3 slots per level just like wizard, and instead of getting a selection from school spells for their fourth option, they get a pile of harms or heals. Now, admittedly, harm and heal are very good spells (heal more so if you're a vitality healing party, harm for void healing), but then again so are some wizard spells. And yes I know for cleric the free spells are cast out of your highest level slot as opposed to getting 1/level of spell you can cast, but still. It's not unlimited like sorcerer.
And druid just doesn't get four slots at all, restrictive or no. So you're actually a slot up on them. I'd rather have 3 open slots and 1 heavily restricted than 3 open slots and 0 heavily restricted. And no, their 2-action focus spells do not compensate for having 1 fewer slot per level. There are sorcerer bloodline 2-action spells (hag's You're Mine, for instance) that are miles better than druid focus spells, and sorcerer is getting 25% more spells.
That being said, "druid is sad" is not a good reason to make wizard sad. It's a reason to make them both more on par with sorcerer, in overall play experience if not specific mechanical implementation. The issue is more that wizard is...
Nothing anybody else has makes the Druid "SAD",
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I find myself wondering if the Ignition change is a way to encourage folks to stop "shopping" outside their tradition?
Say they included something like the following to the Cantrips section of Spellcasting for each spellcasting class: "You add your spellcasting ability modifier to the damage of Cantrips from your Tradition."
So, if Electric Arc followed in the footsteps of Ignition (2d4 instead of d4+SAM). If it's on your list it's 2d4+SAM. If it's not, it's just 2d4. Does it remain the "you gotta get this Cantrip somehow" Cantrip?
I dunno. For the most part, I'm with Unicore on this one. I think that until Player Core 1 comes out this fall we just don't have enough of the full picture.
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I gotta wonder why they'd bother to put information in their preview that was guarenteed to get people mad over the further nerfing of an already 3rd rate class, not to mention showing off a slew of spell nerfs when so few spells are worth casting to begin with.
My concern is that if they're nerfing already bad options, how much worse will the good classes and spells get hit.
Sorcerer gets better innate benefits without having to compromise what they can use their slots on more than any other ones means a Wizard is paying their ability to prepare spells in the form of slot versatility to be worse than a Sorcerer is with their slots, which is just absolutely backwards design. "You can use these 3 slots for whatever, but this 4th one has to be one of these two spells, and nothing else" goes against the idea that a Wizard is basically the Batman of spellcasters, being able to prepare and plan for most every situation. At that point, Cleric and Druid are better prepared spellcasters because they don't have to compromise what they can prepare their spell slots withI mean. Cleric kinda does have to compromise what they prepare their slots with. They get 3 slots per level just like wizard, and instead of getting a selection from school spells for their fourth option, they get a pile of harms or heals. Now, admittedly, harm and heal are very good spells (heal more so if you're a vitality healing party, harm for void healing), but then again so are some wizard spells. And yes I know for cleric the free spells are cast out of your highest level slot as opposed to getting 1/level of spell you can cast, but still. It's not unlimited like sorcerer.
And druid just doesn't get four slots at all, restrictive or no. So you're actually a slot up on them. I'd rather have 3 open slots and 1 heavily restricted than 3 open slots and 0 heavily restricted. And no, their 2-action focus spells do not compensate for having 1 fewer slot per level. There are sorcerer bloodline 2-action spells (hag's You're Mine, for instance) that are miles better than druid focus spells, and sorcerer is getting 25% more spells.
That being said, "druid is sad" is not a good reason to make wizard sad. It's a reason to make them both more on par with sorcerer, in overall play experience if not specific mechanical implementation. The issue is more that wizard is...
It depends. If they aren't Void Healing, but need to prepare Harm for Channel Smite/offensive capability, then it's ultimately a case of "Prepare Harms with Font, prepare Heals with slots," which isn't exactly original or helpful, but that's a little different when your choices of bonus spells are probably the two strongest spells in your tradition in the game, and are usable across all levels of play to great effect. Like, if there was a Wizard school that gave access to Force Dart and Thunderstrike, that would probably be a pretty solid school based on those two spells alone, even if it doesn't have other powerful ones like Slow/Haste, Fireball, etc. The other big benefit is you don't need to spend gold to have access to spells in your list (unless they're Uncommon or Rare, but even then, coming across a scroll or some other source is enough to get access). Need Regenerate? Well, I don't need to pay X amount of gold and Y amount of downtime to acquire it, I can just prepare it when I get access to that rank if spell.
Druids will have less spells, true. But they also have better proficiencies to compensate for it. They have armor and weapons, and they have more HP and better saves progression, meaning they can multiclass to other things to greater effect compared to Wizard, and given that Storm Druid has practically nothing for in-class support, multiclassing is basically mandatory for them.
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I gotta wonder why they'd bother to put information in their preview that was guarenteed to get people mad over the further nerfing of an already 3rd rate class
Eh? I don't see any alchemist or investigator nerfs in the document.
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I gotta wonder why they'd bother to put information in their preview that was guarenteed to get people mad over the further nerfing of an already 3rd rate classEh? I don't see any alchemist or investigator nerfs in the document.
Pretty sure those are Player Core 2, which is still in development, so I wouldn't expect any information on those classes in this preview.
**EDIT** Though, if you are being facetious, we also forgot to mention Swashbuckler.
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As much as I don't like "GM may I" since as GM I'm very permissive and when I play being unable to take choices I want makes me itch. I like the custom school idea just for the nonsense that pops in my head.
Potential Arcanium Applicant: "Look at all the spells they give you access to for being an alum so cool."
Recruiter of the Hodgepodge School of Whatever the Hell You Want: slugs whiskey and hits some Pesh "Don't do it kid, we got Slow, Summon Dragon, Horizon Thunder Sphere all the good s**t. You don't need those snooty a*******s help. Now, sign right here.
Actually wheezing at this mental image, thank you.
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Interesting, most people I see discussing this kind of thing put Druid as one of the stronger casters between their good proficiencies, strong list, and solid focus spells (you say they're no different but they're clearly a lot more important than most cleric or wizard offerings).
...Sorcerer gets better innate benefits without having to compromise what they can use their slots on more than any other ones means a Wizard is paying their ability to prepare spells in the form of slot versatility to be worse than a Sorcerer is with their slots, which is just absolutely backwards design. "You can use these 3 slots for whatever, but this 4th one has to be one of these two spells, and nothing else" goes against the idea that a Wizard is basically the Batman of spellcasters, being able to prepare and plan for most every situation. At that point, Cleric and Druid are better prepared spellcasters because they don't have to compromise what they can prepare their spell slots withI mean. Cleric kinda does have to compromise what they prepare their slots with. They get 3 slots per level just like wizard, and instead of getting a selection from school spells for their fourth option, they get a pile of harms or heals. Now, admittedly, harm and heal are very good spells (heal more so if you're a vitality healing party, harm for void healing), but then again so are some wizard spells. And yes I know for cleric the free spells are cast out of your highest level slot as opposed to getting 1/level of spell you can cast, but still. It's not unlimited like sorcerer.
And druid just doesn't get four slots at all, restrictive or no. So you're actually a slot up on them. I'd rather have 3 open slots and 1 heavily restricted than 3 open slots and 0 heavily restricted. And no, their 2-action focus spells do not compensate for having 1 fewer slot per level. There are sorcerer bloodline 2-action spells (hag's You're Mine, for instance) that are miles better than druid focus spells, and sorcerer is getting 25% more spells.
That being said, "druid is sad" is not a good reason to make wizard sad. It's a reason to make them both more on par with sorcerer, in overall play experience if not specific mechanical implementation. The
If the druid pretends to be sad, can they have more power?
What's weird was the separate preview I saw for Flame Strike was such a big buff.
Name: Divine Immolation, much cooler
Damage: 2d6 became persistent damage, while the other 6d6 remained regular fire.
Radius: 20 ft burst
Extra: Now just fully counts as spirit damage if would be worse for the enemy than fire damage.
Traits: Sanctified.
They took that classic dud of a spell and made it into an absolute fiend killer. It got me super jazzed. Meanwhile, this list... Not so much.
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I think we can all agree with need paizo to set us straight on this before remaster release
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Howdy! I have a friend that happens to be a Magus (it's me) and he asked me if Thunderstrike is replacing Shocking Grasp? Any confirmation about that?
It's not definitive, but there is a lot of coincidental correlation to be put on that suggests that it's a replacement. There's also potential speculation that it's replacing more than just Shocking Grasp, which is why it is changed the way it is changed.
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The magus is going to need errata to function smoothly into the remastery. I would not recommend trying to convert the class over until all the tools have been provided to do so. A regular OGL magus with OGL spells will be fine until more support is provided.
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What's weird was the separate preview I saw for Flame Strike was such a big buff.
Name: Divine Immolation, much cooler
Damage: 2d6 became persistent damage, while the other 6d6 remained regular fire.
Radius: 20 ft burst
Extra: Now just fully counts as spirit damage if would be worse for the enemy than fire damage.
Traits: Sanctified.They took that classic dud of a spell and made it into an absolute fiend killer. It got me super jazzed. Meanwhile, this list... Not so much.
Ooooooo! Where was that preview?
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It occurs to me that the reason we got these specific spells might not be because they were what would excite the community, but because they were referenced in Rage of Elements. I only spotted a couple that overlap, but it would be interesting to CTRL+F through the pdf and see how many spell names show up on a monster stat block.
Ooooooo! Where was that preview?What's weird was the separate preview I saw for Flame Strike was such a big buff.
Name: Divine Immolation, much cooler
Damage: 2d6 became persistent damage, while the other 6d6 remained regular fire.
Radius: 20 ft burst
Extra: Now just fully counts as spirit damage if would be worse for the enemy than fire damage.
Traits: Sanctified.They took that classic dud of a spell and made it into an absolute fiend killer. It got me super jazzed. Meanwhile, this list... Not so much.
The weird thing is it was on a reddit forum that seems to be locked to private now. Maybe someone leaked something they weren't supposed to?
Ah, did google image and found it:
https://images.app.goo.gl/BYut9MavBZkJvT9U7
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I hope there's a "school of comfort" with the remastered wizard; it would have a curriculum of mage hand, unseen servant, prestidigitation (for cleaning clothes), light, create food, mending, and feather fall (for when the ankle biters are climbing the oak tree....AGAIN!!) As a grown man nearing his thirties I'd kill for a magical home-ec degree