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Food.
It can be the buff centered school. Also yummy. Maybe the summon buildings spells can go in there s well.
CAMPFIRE WIZARD CAMPFIRE WIZARD CAMPFIRE WIZARD
Sorry. I'm really into campfire fantasy. The idea of a cooking and subsistence-themed wizard school sounds glorious. Buffs, wards, maybe a couple borrowed naturey spells (though I do like the angle of "druids are campers, wizards are glampers"), etc, etc.
You can't not tell me there's a travel/adventurer school of wizardry.
Anthony Bourdain wizard.
Oh my gosh oh my gosh if there isn't I'll make there be one.
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Yes, this is known, but whether the Player Handbook 2 in specific came out before the PF1 core rulebook is what this depends on. The timeline of development matters as to whether bloodlines for the sorcerer is a paizo thing or d&d thing
PH2 came out a year after the Pathfinder 1 playtest.
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Honestly, the concept of sorcerers getting some sort of ability based on having a bloodline? That's no more copyright-prodding than the sorcerer itself, and apparently sorcerers are fine, so we're probably good. The 4e Wild Mage/Draconic Sorcerer thing was nothing like pf2's bloodlines.
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Food.
It can be the buff centered school. Also yummy. Maybe the summon buildings spells can go in there s well.
Have to watch out that it doesn't overlap with Kingdom of Loathing, though.
:>
I'm waiting for the 'political' college where the 'children of privilege' are sent to (sort of like a boarding school) to learn how to use magic and influence people.
Counter to that the 'union' college/'trade school' where folks learn how to do magic crafting or whatnot.
Extra bonus, the 'White Mage' School of Healing/Condition Removal.
Honestly, the concept of sorcerers getting some sort of ability based on having a bloodline? That's no more copyright-prodding than the sorcerer itself, and apparently sorcerers are fine, so we're probably good. The 4e Wild Mage/Draconic Sorcerer thing was nothing like pf2's bloodlines.
I don't have the PDF to see what language was used, only the srd resources. However I will say that 3.0 already says sorcerers claim to have dragon blood in their veins. Only flavor text. What could be copyrightable here would be specifically having a sorcerer class, it keying off charisma, using spontaneous casting, having their magic be inherited and it coming from a something in their bloodline. All those together, rather than individually, could cause issues. Apparently Paizo might not think so though as you pointed out they are going nowhere and the bloodlines haven't been exactly implemented like they were in the previous edition and this edition. It seems a lot like the chromatic dragon issue to me but idk. This is especially something I would consider simply for the fact that "sorcerer" in other games is equivalent to wizard in this game, rather than equivalent to sorcerer in this game. For instance Dark Souls and Elden Ring, where sorcerer keys off intelligence and is formalized in schools, or the ttrpg Rune Quest in their I believe 5th edition had the intelligence and academic magic be called sorcerery, and a famous example is the Diablo games where sorcerer and wizard as terms are flipped compared to Pathfinder and d&d. So I can see an argument that for this specific arrangement with all these things together wotc could pull shenanigans over the sorcerer but idk
I am so excited to see more new schools. One of the things that really gets me about the new school classification is the way the themed lists feel like actual disciplines of magic. We have war magic, bio-manipulation, and presumably either 'building' or 'city-planning' magic. I'm really enthusiastic to see more that feels like they could be actual university majors a la architecture and biochemisty.
What major would I choose if I were trying to create a new thematic concept for one of the old schools...? Perhaps the School of Applied Psychotheurgy, includes several emotion effects and charm spells.
School of Alluring Visions (known by many as "AV School") known for their dazzling light shows and beguiling illusions.
School of the Second Walk - euphemistic name for a school shunned in all places except Geb, about how to make the dead move again. (though honestly, with how old the whispering way is, School of the Whispering Way might not be inappropriate for undeath magic, though I suppose not all people studying undeath care all that much about the death cultists--Geb for a notable example.
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The intern overhears the arguing of two mages - both doctorates in civil engineering - as they croak their voices in favor of whether or not to make the new design for the town square a circle... or a squircle.
The intern decides to sit this one out.
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What kinds of new schools would you like to see?
When I told some of my friends about the wizard school change, one of them said "My wizard went to Thimbleweeds".
Now I'll admit I don't know if that's a reference to something, but it instantly made me think of a small community college of wizards in a remote town that focuses on the little comforts in life. It wouldn't be good for a proper *mechanical* wizard-the-pathfinder-class school that wants spells with more oomph but I'm just, i dunno, thinkin' of cozy wizards in little villages.
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What kinds of new schools would you like to see?
Personally, I'd love to see something covering the pseudo-philosophical necromantic views of the Ebon Mausoleum of Mechitar and/or the Twilight Sage's in Yled views on the borders between life & death playing with positive & negative energy (The other magic academies in Yled are interesting but I don't really see enough unique things about them to get their own separate from battle magic, civil wizardry, and a highly likely undead-themed school--even Ebon Mausoleum is hard to justify as its own beyond like a feat or two). In general, I think a lot of the various in-world academies / schools of thought would be really fun to include in Lost Omens books (quite like the idea for a subclass based on lightning & undead stuff of Ustalav like the one dev said as a possibility would be awesome)
Outside of actual specific in-setting organizations though, a (for lack of a better term) "knowledge manipulation" themed school based around things like (to use 8-school terminology) divination & illusion with maybe a bit of enchantment thrown in and generally gaining & exploiting knowledge for your party whilst confusing the enemy, exploiting that knowledge is power (Call it say, the School of the Shifting Truth).
Also, if they could do it, a Power Words are really cool, though I could see trying to make a full school around them could be difficult and a bit all over the place mechanically.
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I see the new schools of magic as your major in universities. Not as the universities themselves.
A center of magical learning might support only one school of magic (maybe even one they created) like the Kung-fu schools in many movies.
A bigger one might support several, akin to the Shaolin temple providing training in different styles.
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What kinds of new schools would you like to see?
I'd like to see a Wizard school organized around counterspells and dispels, basically "how to stop other people's magic". For a long time I've wanted to be able to do "Magical Aikido."
The focus spell would be something like the counterspell reaction, but it costs a focus point and a spell slot, but you don't have to have the exact spell that you're countering prepared.
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I see the new schools of magic as your major in universities. Not as the universities themselves.
A center of magical learning might support only one school of magic (maybe even one they created) like the Kung-fu schools in many movies.
A bigger one might support several, akin to the Shaolin temple providing training in different styles.
I think the comparison to martial arts is a particularly apt metaphor.
Martial arts can be defined as "the formal study of personal combat," just as wizardry can be defined as "the formal study of arcane magic." Within that overarching definition, though, there are literally hundreds of subdivisions. Some are based on philosophies, some based on the weapons a particular group of people had readily available, some based purely on ruthless efficiency in making people unalive. Those subdivisions can be quite small or quite widespread, they can be localized into one particular institution or organization or they can be taught the world over, and they can be learned through formal instruction or self-taught via documentation and practice.
If it's going to be anything like the Witch, then obviously specific in-lore schools are going to be like the specific patrons - Rare or Uncommon, with a little extra mechanic thrown in for fun.
The new schools system is interesting. I can only imagine that they're creating tags for spells similar to the old spell-school tags. Hopefully they can do it in a concise way so as to not add too much clutter to spell tags.
Otherwise, the only other way I can see them doing it without putting themselves in a corner futureproofing-wise is something fairly inelegant, like "Wizards of the school of Battle Magic may prepare one additional spell per rank they can cast; these spells must deal damage", etc.
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If it's going to be anything like the Witch, then obviously specific in-lore schools are going to be like the specific patrons - Rare or Uncommon, with a little extra mechanic thrown in for fun.
The new schools system is interesting. I can only imagine that they're creating tags for spells similar to the old spell-school tags. Hopefully they can do it in a concise way so as to not add too much clutter to spell tags.
Otherwise, the only other way I can see them doing it without putting themselves in a corner futureproofing-wise is something fairly inelegant, like "Wizards of the school of Battle Magic may prepare one additional spell per rank they can cast; these spells must deal damage", etc.
They did specify that they are not making school related tags for spells. So it is either the case that all the school spells will fit closely enough around the same theme at every level that you know what you are signing up for when you pick the school (pretty unlikely, even given their example of battle magic getting earthbind) or they are going to do something new/more flexible with the idea of "bonus spells." The fact that every wizard is a school wizard now too will complicate bonus spells as the option if there is in fact a school with the ability to chose your own spells.
Probably not an appropriate option for most PCs, but having a Whispering Way "school" would be pretty awesome.
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Even after adopting the new schools, there's nothing stopping us from continuing to use the old school names. Each and every one predates tabletop roleplaying games and have real world meanings, and can still be used as such in every day speech.
Necromancy is not disappearing from Golarion; its just not going to be a wizard school.
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I think it is likely that we will end up with 3 or 4 schools of necromancy within a couple of years with different takes that feel very in world. The Whispering Way School is going to be about eradicating life from the planet, an Ustalav School is that combines electricity with spells that are about extending life to unnatural ends. A school of necromancy in Geb could be about raising large quantities of easily pacified and controlled drones. There are great options for us here.
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I just love that Paizo attitude about this whole thing. "Oh, look! Yet another crevice we can inject some flavor into." It's just so *rich*.
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I just love that Paizo attitude about this whole thing. "Oh, look! Yet another crevice we can inject some flavor into." It's just so *rich*.
This is one of the things that makes me happiest about the remaster because wizards were one of my favorites in 1e but when I saw all the cool flavour coming to the other classes it really made "you are good at these arbitrary categories" stick out to me as somewhat artificial and divorced from what wizards actually do in their societies.
Hedge wizards are probably going to continue to be a thing even if there's literal schools, they'll just likely either be universalists of some variety, have come to a lot of the same conclusions as a formal school independently, or they've got their own school of some sort.
Wizards are definitely academic themed but there's romance in being a rogue academic whose theories are just on the cusp of being vindicated, or someone that was just that into books that they were able to teach themselves everything through experimentation and mugging other wizards with a gun for their spellbooks. The how isn't necessarily carved in stone, just what spells are available which has always been the case. It's just that now there's an academic establishment to rage against, where you've got a war magic school on your character sheet but your character didn't go to any of hte war magic colleges because f%@% those warmongers, you learned war magic from murdering them and taking their scrolls.
Civil engineering magic without formal education? You are the protagonist of a Well There's Your Problem episode.
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Like Sorcerer Bloodlines? No this spunds like they are removing the schools of magic (evocation, divination, etc) to give the Wizards the Witch's lessonsThat was my thinking as well. Either backward compatibility will be difficult, or schools will end up feeling much more like sorcerer bloodlines.I wonder how/if the new wizard will handle their extra spell slots. If the schools are gone then what will denote what a wizard can and can't put in those slots? And if those slots go away will wizards get some other source of extra spells?Valid question, and one to which I think we already have part of an answer: For example the school of Battle Magic was said to include such classic evocations as Fireball, but also what would have been a transmutation spell Earthbind for nailing down aerial foes.
... This does leave the worrying possibility that wizard schools will now create bespoke lists, which I think would be a major step backward for backward compatibility.
Oh... oh no..... That's quite possibly the most awful revelation I've read to date about this whole thing. If this assessment is even half correct the future of the Wizard is bleak indeed.
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Yeah, I can house rule a whole game by myself, and make up the players, too, but it sure is nice to have something cool to work with that's worth paying money for.
Main issue with a contingency school would be the fact that you're only allowed one contingency spell (slash spell with the contingency trait) at once, with that said there's definitely design space for a way to break that limit (plus, it's not like all prep-focused spells actually have the contingency trait)
Sidenote: I'd really like if the remaster gave Contingency the contingency trait just so the trait's wording can be neatened up some. Would probably necessitate a couple more contingency spells in the Player Core (or 2 if that's where Contingency ends up) so there's not a trait which applies for all of 1 spell in that book, but they're cool I'd just take that as a bonus plus.
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I don't care what they call the wizard schools. Just give them good focus spells and feats that make you want to make a wizard.
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I'm super fine with the changes, as long as School Slots are axed in favor of making Wizard a real 4-slot caster. If the restricted slots are kept, and now you can only choose between one or two spells to prepare there per level, that's a pretty significant stealth-nerf to Wizard, and oh boy, the class really doesn't deserve that.
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Don't have the time to read the rest of this thread, just wanted to say-
And yet...
Obviously barkskin is transmutation because it is changing matter.Like I said they gave away stuff that belonged to transmutation to other schools. That and many more spells used to be Transmutation. ...
-that this hits exactly the same note as a common alignment-debate thing for me, in that 'no this slightly vague and overlapping classification is clear and obvious, lots of people are just doing it wrong!' isn't really a healthy state for a mechanic in a widespread game to be, no matter how right you think you are or how simply you think it could be righted if the designers did x.
Spell school doesn't matter nearly as much as alignment and isn't player-defined so it's inherently a different case, but still, conveyance matters in a social game! If it's not supposed to be objective it could probably stand to not be presented that way, and if it is, they should go off of more objective traits. Focusing on what spells are actually intended to do instead of how they do it makes sense for the subjective side, and that in turn leaves room for future subclasses. (On a side note, hopefully Cleric gets some of that?)
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I'm super fine with the changes, as long as School Slots are axed in favor of making Wizard a real 4-slot caster. If the restricted slots are kept, and now you can only choose between one or two spells to prepare there per level, that's a pretty significant stealth-nerf to Wizard, and oh boy, the class really doesn't deserve that.
The only way I see 3+1 bonus sticking around is if there are ways to switch around what spells are your bonus school spells if your wizard starts defining third school for themselves, but that sounds like a lot of needless work.
If you only got to choose 1 new spell for your spell book each level, but had 2 spells from your school already in your book for free at each new rank of spells, then you don’t really need to limit what spells get memorized to still likely pick spells that fit in a vision of what your school could be. And you can still heighten all your lower level spells.
Here is hoping the focus spells that only seemed to exist to try to badly replicate PF1 school powers can be replaced with interesting and thematic stuff useful to those build types. With access to feats that grant additional focus spells being such an obvious power boost in game, I hope most casting classes get feats that grant additional focus spells at level 1/2.
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I really want a school of luxury spells. Prestidigitation, Unseen Servant, Magnificent Mansion, everything a caster needs to make their life as comfortable in the middle of a damp dungeon as it is in the city.
... Wizard schools might be something I finally put together more formal homebrew for.
I really want to know what school-associated spells mean in the context of remaster.
Are wizards staying 3+1 slots and the new school spells are your bonus slot options? That feels awkward if Paizo doesn't come up with some good mechanic for expanding those lists as new books get published.
Are wizards becoming full 4 slots (like the playtest witch) or 3 slots with stronger class features?
If so, what are the bonus spells? Just ones you add to your spellbook for free? That's stronger than the first option but would be kind of boring.
Some kind of bloodline magic style benefit for casting a school spell? That could be fun, but again really wants for some kind of expansion.
How all these details fall into place could really make or break whatever the final product is.
I wonder if the new schools will provide ways for Wizards to get spells outside of the Arcane list. It's hard to picture the Academae in Korvosa not teaching students how to conjure outsiders, for example. I also wonder how many extra feats UAT will get to compensate for not having a curriculum (they did say feats, as in plural).
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My ideal Remastered version :
- Wizards get 4 free slots
- Their school provides them with free spells for their spellbook at each level, in addition to those they already get through leveling. Those could be from other Traditions when it makes sense.
- Their school provides special Focus spells relevant to their field of study, maybe with improved synergy with their school spells.
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One thing that could work is if the school spells include some of the already popular spells from the arcane list that people consider to be the more powerful or useful ones - the ones you have likely seen your party wizard cast on a regular basis.
Free scribing into your spell book could be sufficient for those. Then, you could add the funner / weirder / more niche spells at your leisure, and use your 4 slots however you like.
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Since the existing metamagic options feel somewhat lacking, I would love for the new wizard focus spells to be free action metamagic options (like lingering composition) that fit the given school. A war mage could have focus spells that empower their blasts or leave difficult terrain in the blast's aftermath. A civic wizard could have focus spells that harden their walls or empower their summons.
That's a neat idea.
The design space Lingering Composition sits in has room for quite a bit of expansion.
If you are part of X subclass, you can spend a focus point to use Y class feature as a free action.
Where the Wizard is concerned, this could take the shape of a series of new metamagic feats which all Wizards can take, but certain schools grant the focus power which makes it a free action for the focus point cost.
Taken with the focus point changes, something like that could make for some very dynamic playstyle changes. Assuming the metamagic feats are worthwhile.
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My ideal Remastered version :
- Wizards get 4 free slots
- Their school provides them with free spells for their spellbook at each level, in addition to those they already get through leveling. Those could be from other Traditions when it makes sense.
- Their school provides special Focus spells relevant to their field of study, maybe with improved synergy with their school spells.
These, plus making Spell Substitution a core class feature, would be chef's kiss.
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So wizards are just worse druids/clerics? You just described druid/cleric spontaneous casting from PF1, and the idea that a wizard is being reduced to being a worse cleric just hurts.1. Wizard is a straight 4 slot caster
2. 2 Curiculum spells Per level
3. You have mastered your school spells to such a degree that you can cast that spell using any slot of that level, despite another spell being prepared there. (Like the Stanby Spell Magus feat)
4. Universal Theory wizards can pick any spell for #3, but only one per level instead of 2Mix in some standby spell type flavor!
... Huh? This would be a massive buff to the class, and you're still portraying it as an attack on wizards? I know this is a just somebody's suggestion, but...
- It's not a nerf. They'd get free selection on four slots instead of three. That alone would be a buff.
- It's not worse Cleric/Druid, it'd be better Cleric/Druid. It's way more spontaneous spell options than PF1 Cleric or Druid had- two spells per level instead of what amounts to one heightening spell.
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The argument shouldn't be over, "Are those changes enough?" It should be over, "Are those changes too much?"
Because they're a lot. I don't know if they're too much, but they're a lot. Sorcerer's meant to be the main 4-slot caster--their whole shtick is, "I only have a few tricks, but I can hammer them over and over again". Giving wizards 4 fully customizable slots and a spontaneous spell would blur those lines a little and greatly expand their existing advantages while reducing their key weak points.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, of course! I just think we should be careful about letting the Overton Window drift too far. That kind of change should be on the further end of what wizards could get, not the baseline.
I know it's an unpopular opinion lately, but wizards are pretty darn strong. They do at times feel a little clunky, but... well, this comparison won't help a lot of people, but I see them as sort of like the Heavy Weapons Guy from the fighting game Team Fortress 2. The Heavy is meant to be a sluggish tank, a guy who can put out massive damage with his minigun while holding a relatively small, sheltered position. He's a very vulnerable class who struggles with versatility, but buffing him incautiously would make him one of the deadliest classes in the game for his ability to secure a choke point.
I'm excited for wizards to get a bit of a buff, though, or at least for the Divine list to be made a bit less competitive with the Arcane list for versatility.
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Hmm.
What about a Wizard who is an open 3-slot caster, but whose 4th slot is special, in that per the spell substitution thesis, that 4th slot only can be swapped out for another school spell with a 10-minute study.
That opens some in-school flexibility without obviating the need for the substitution thesis entirely (which is still usable on all slots not just school slots).
?