why Katana is super low dmg in P2e

[Akichan1]

Pathfinder 1 katana was in dmg 1d6 (s) 1d8(m)
Pathfinder 2 is 1d6
in d&D 1 to 5 is form 1d8 to 1d10

also, this almost always like bastard sword the katana is a long at the bastard sword (Like bastard and katana long change but is almost the same )and at the time when was build or use have better material and heavy of the cheaper reproduction that we have now with aluminum or Stainless steel the true is really heavy sword i have one that is not fake steal like now and is not light like aluminum or Stainless steel

1d6 in dmg is good for a wakizashi size a shot sword that can be 1 d 6 in dmg

[Twiggies]

I opened this thread hoping it would be the katana copypasta.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Twiggies wrote:

I opened this thread hoping it would be the katana copypasta.

Same.

I'm hoping somebody will come in and post it and redeem the thread for the memes, because otherwise this is a dumpster fire.

[PossibleCabbage]

Well, the Katana in PF2 is specifically 1d6, deadly d8, and two hand 1d10.

Which means that compared to a 1d6 one handed sword its crits are far more deadly, and 1d8 one-handed swords generally don't have the two-hand option.

The most obvious poinst of comparison is the Bastard Sword, which has a die size increase in both 1h and 2h configurations, but lacks Deadly and Versatile P. Are deadly and versatile worth a die size? That seems like a tradeoff that isn't obvious in either direction.

But realistically a Katana should not be significantly more deadly than a rapier or scimitar despite the reputation of the weapon.

[keftiu]

Twiggies wrote:

I opened this thread hoping it would be the katana copypasta.

It's strange, the things that become our old friends.

[Squiggit]

It's not 'super low' damage, it's one damage less than a bastard sword, which turns into less than one damage when you factor in deadly.

Worst you can say is that deadly d8 was probably lowballing it a bit and it should have deadly d10 at least, but it's not that far off.

[QuidEst]

If you want something done right...

Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that. I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen. This is a fact and you can't deny it.

Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block

[Twiggies]

Nah, you gotta update it to pf2e terms.

Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

Traits: [Two-Hand 1d12] [Deadly d12] [Versatile P] [Agile]
Damage: 1d10 S
Category: Martial
Groups: Sword

[breithauptclan]

And if you are proficient with the weapon, then you can use the Power Attack feat as one action instead of two.

[Deriven Firelion]

One edition of D&D gave the Katana its due. I think it was 2nd edition that made it stand out as a great damage weapon. Ever since then it's been pretty weak damage and not worth using unless you like the appearance.

[CaptainRelyk]

The real question is why isn’t it finesse? Especially when it’s depicted as a weapon people swing about quickly. Like you see characters like Samurai Jack swing like crazy while being mobile and agile. Idk about you all, but samurai jack and other katana wielding types come scores as dexterity based fighters or monks even

[breithauptclan]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

The real question is why isn’t it finesse?

Same logic could be used for all swords. So then all swords get finesse.

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah, "It's light, and has an agile tip" is basically a property of all well-designed swords that aren't like "the absolute biggest swords engineered for bigness."

If a katana was finesse, a longsword should be finesse too, since we're talking about a 2.3lb sword versus a 2.4lb sword. Which is well within the tolerance of "how much did the smith grind?"

[QuidEst]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

The real question is why isn’t it finesse? Especially when it’s depicted as a weapon people swing about quickly. Like you see characters like Samurai Jack swing like crazy while being mobile and agile. Idk about you all, but samurai jack and other katana wielding types come scores as dexterity based fighters or monks even

Samurai Jack is also ripped. In game terms, he's invested in both strength and dexterity and the dexterity is just more noticeable. All those leaps?

I think the weapons do try to take both fictional depictions and real life function into account to some degree.

[Skele Tor]

The fact that katana is even comparable to pathetic Western swords is a disgrace.

Westerners were dumb idiots who would hammer a piece of metal and call it a sword. These zweihanders were basically planks of steel with no finesse or thought behind them. No wonders samurai would cut down European knights whenever they fought hahaha lmao

Katanas were forged by blind smiths who lived on the top of the highest mountains. Each one was unique. Each one had a special jitsu technique enhanced in it. My favourite is omnislash, like you would cut, but it would cut through every foe within a mile.

Katana should be 1d12 dmg, finesse, agile, deadly d20, fatal d20.

[Qaianna]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Well, the Katana in PF2 is specifically 1d6, deadly d8, and two hand 1d10.

Which means that compared to a 1d6 one handed sword its crits are far more deadly, and 1d8 one-handed swords generally don't have the two-hand option.

The most obvious poinst of comparison is the Bastard Sword, which has a die size increase in both 1h and 2h configurations, but lacks Deadly and Versatile P. Are deadly and versatile worth a die size? That seems like a tradeoff that isn't obvious in either direction.

But realistically a Katana should not be significantly more deadly than a rapier or scimitar despite the reputation of the weapon.

I think the designers treat Deadly d8 as worth a die size, at least.

[Squiggit]

breithauptclan wrote:

CaptainRelyk wrote:

The real question is why isn’t it finesse?

Same logic could be used for all swords. So then all swords get finesse.

Honestly? Probably. The whole notion of Strength vs Dexterity as some either-or mechanic is a bit wonky, especially since the weapon choice itself is kind of arbitrary and wrapped up more in weird balance considerations and historical debt than anything else.

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah I am hoping PF3 really breaks away from the classic six ability modifiers.

[zeonsghost]

Katana is actually fine. Good for the open hand fighter, laughing shadow magus who doesn't go finesse, or a thaumaturge of Tien origin.

Now I want to play a Tien inventor who *really* wants to make the Katana from the classic meme so lovingly shared above.

[Twiggies]

zeonsghost wrote:

Now I want to play a Tien inventor who *really* wants to make the Katana from the classic meme so lovingly shared above.

For added accuracy/memery, they should actually not be Tien.

[zeonsghost]

Twiggies wrote:

zeonsghost wrote:

Now I want to play a Tien inventor who *really* wants to make the Katana from the classic meme so lovingly shared above.

For added accuracy/memery, they should actually not be Tien.

That's a fair point.

[Kobold Catgirl]

QuidEst wrote:

Samurai Jack is also ripped. In game terms, he's invested in both strength and dexterity and the dexterity is just more noticeable. All those leaps?

Umm, *puts on my nerd glasses* leaps are Strength-based, not Dexterity based.

[PossibleCabbage]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Samurai Jack is also ripped. In game terms, he's invested in both strength and dexterity and the dexterity is just more noticeable. All those leaps?

Umm, *puts on my nerd glasses* leaps are Strength-based, not Dexterity based.

I think that's the point. If you want your "finesse weapon" PC to also climb, jump, and swim you also should have some strength.

There's an issue in PF2 where it's not a great idea to walk around without armor with less than 20 dex, but Jack's high enough level to have 20 dex.

[Perpdepog]

zeonsghost wrote:

Twiggies wrote:

zeonsghost wrote:

Now I want to play a Tien inventor who *really* wants to make the Katana from the classic meme so lovingly shared above.

For added accuracy/memery, they should actually not be Tien.

That's a fair point.

"I heard tell of legends that a katana must be folded a million times in order to be complete, and that a swordmaster would devote their entire life to perfecting such a weapon. What fools! With my new katana folding machine, I can have those million folds performed in a quarter of the time, thus leaving me plenty of time to perfect the spring-loaded sawblades!"

[Squiggit]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Samurai Jack is also ripped. In game terms, he's invested in both strength and dexterity and the dexterity is just more noticeable. All those leaps?

Umm, *puts on my nerd glasses* leaps are Strength-based, not Dexterity based.

I think that's the point. If you want your "finesse weapon" PC to also climb, jump, and swim you also should have some strength.

There's an issue in PF2 where it's not a great idea to walk around without armor with less than 20 dex, but Jack's high enough level to have 20 dex.

Yeah, I feel like if there's any disconnect here it's more just that lightly armored, strong characters are undersupported. It's a really common trope across fantasy, but only exists in game at very high levels, or with a specific type of monk or barbarian.

[RaptorJesues]

QuidEst wrote:

If you want something done right...

Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that. I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen. This is a fact and you can't deny it.

Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block

I needed this today, thank you

[QuidEst]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Samurai Jack is also ripped. In game terms, he's invested in both strength and dexterity and the dexterity is just more noticeable. All those leaps?

Umm, *puts on my nerd glasses* leaps are Strength-based, not Dexterity based.

... That was going to be what I put after that question mark before I got distracted apparently, yeah.

RaptorJeseus wrote:

I needed this today, thank you

You're welcome. It makes me happy that folks are as weirdly nostalgic for that copypasta as I am.

[QuidEst]

Twiggies wrote:

zeonsghost wrote:

Now I want to play a Tien inventor who *really* wants to make the Katana from the classic meme so lovingly shared above.

For added accuracy/memery, they should actually not be Tien.

Constantly frustrated.

"I heard from a reliable source that this kind of blade should be able to bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash, but even with the rocket propulsion, I find it barely makes it halfway. Horizontal works fine, but they were very specific about the vertical thing for some reason. I'm clearly not folding it enough, but after a mere thousand folds, I start getting an unsurmountable buildup of structural flaws that ruins the integrity altogether. I'm still orders of magnitude away from millions! I'm convinced there's a critical step of the process kept secret. A localized planar anomaly tied to Axis would explain how they maintain the metallic crystalline structure macro-order through even more refolding, but my most generous projections still limit that to thirty thousand, so there's got to be something more. Anyway, if you could insult Queen Abrogail or something, I need some more angry Hellknights to run a few tests on."

[YuriP]

Hahahaha
This entire topic becomes a meme.

But responding the OP more seriously. PF2 weapons have same overall balance. Basically one-handed melee martial weapons have 1d8 + 1 trait as it's base. For example a longsword is 1d8 + versatile, a bastard sword is 1d8+Two-Hand 1d12. Usually to add additional traits designers diminish the dice size by 1 per additional trait but different traits have different "weight", katana for example added 2 extra traits when compared to longswords and bastard swords just diminishing the damage dice to d6 but compensate also diminishing the Two-Hand trait to 1d10. Rarity and access traits like Uncommon and ancestry trait doesn't count.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Twiggies wrote:

Nah, you gotta update it to pf2e terms.

Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

Traits: [Two-Hand 1d12] [Deadly d12] [Versatile P] [Agile]
Damage: 1d10 S
Category: Martial
Groups: Sword

Pfft, obviously it should be fatal d12, not deadly; deadly doesn't come close to the true power of superior craftsmanship /s

[Easl]

I can't believe I'm gonna breathe life into this but here goes...

QuidEst wrote:

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

If you spent big bucks on a sword 'folded a million times' then you got played. Metallurgically, any folding after about 20 (i.e. 2E20 layers) is pointless except maybe for producing a pretty Damascus pattern. Now Japanese smiths 700s-1800s CE didn't know this so I'm sure they *did* it using the "more of a good thing must be better" principle, but if some *modern* smith is giving you the 'folded a million times' line for some sword they are trying to sell you, it's an advertising gimmick. They got your fanboy vibe and decided to lean into it for the sale.

Quote:

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too.

That's a terrible combination. It means the edge is brittle and will chip. Swords vary in sharpness and hardness not because these are objectively good properties some smiths didn't know how to achieve, but because different swords had different uses and thus different things were important. Sharpness is like curve: good for some things, bad for others, a lot typically implies a very narrow or specific use application. If you want 'sharpest blade in the world,' humans achieved that in the stone age. With obsidian, not katanas. But thinking about obsidian should also give you the clue about how maximal sharpness is not necesssarily good for all applications.

Quote:

Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Okay now you're just POEing us.

***
In the spirit of providing useful TTRPG game feedback, point one: any standard weapon should stay within the range of the weapons already presented, else there will be balance issues (if one weapon is hugely superior, everyone will pick it. But everyone picking "the one best" weapon is booooring). Point two: there is certainly an argument to be made based on RL that a pretty normal person wielding a pretty normal sword taking a pretty good whack at an opponent should be able to "one shot" them. In that respect, one could argue that upping the damage of most of the basic weapons in comparison to starting HP (or, lowering starting HP) is reasonable. But that's another game balance issue: that makes for a very deadly rpg, where characters easily and regularly die. There ARE ttrpgs out there that are very deadly. It IS a design philosophy some games follow, to incorporate that very real "swords and guns are really deadly" concept into the game. But such games are not for everyone. I don't believe PF2E's design philosophy is for it to be that deadly. So *even if* you think higher damage is more realistic, be aware that "more realistic" is not the primary goal of the weapon stats. If you want that katanas-chop-people-in-half gaming experience, I'd suggest you look into L5R (any edition) or a system like that.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Twiggies wrote:

Nah, you gotta update it to pf2e terms.

Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

Traits: [Two-Hand 1d12] [Deadly d12] [Versatile P] [Agile]
Damage: 1d10 S
Category: Martial
Groups: Sword

Pfft, obviously it should be fatal d12, not deadly; deadly doesn't come close to the true power of superior craftsmanship /s

Why not both?

[The Raven Black]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Twiggies wrote:

Nah, you gotta update it to pf2e terms.

Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

Traits: [Two-Hand 1d12] [Deadly d12] [Versatile P] [Agile]
Damage: 1d10 S
Category: Martial
Groups: Sword

Pfft, obviously it should be fatal d12, not deadly; deadly doesn't come close to the true power of superior craftsmanship /s

Why not both?

IIRC, Fatal covers Deadly and more.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

The Raven Black wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Twiggies wrote:

Nah, you gotta update it to pf2e terms.

Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

Traits: [Two-Hand 1d12] [Deadly d12] [Versatile P] [Agile]
Damage: 1d10 S
Category: Martial
Groups: Sword

Pfft, obviously it should be fatal d12, not deadly; deadly doesn't come close to the true power of superior craftsmanship /s

Why not both?

IIRC, Fatal covers Deadly and more.

They aren't mutually exclusive traits, though.

Deadly adds dice not multiplied on a critical, and Fatal changes base dice (as well as adding one not multiplied on a critical).

So, a 3D8 base weapon (such as Greater Striking) with Deadly D12 and Fatal D12 would be a total of 6D12 on a critical 3 of which aren't multiplied (two from Deadly, one from Fatal).

[Kobold Catgirl]

Incidentally, the katana is actually arguably objectively better than the bastard sword. The bastard sword has very slightly better damage, but the katana has a ton more traits.

[QuidEst]

Easl wrote:

I can't believe I'm gonna breathe life into this but here goes...

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, my message was an infamous copypasta that many people expect any katana discussion to include, and I hold none of the views it expresses. I took enough material science courses (one) to have an idea of how silly it is. Hence the idea of a very frustrated Inventor trying to replicate the claims.

[Easl]

QuidEst wrote:

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, my message was an infamous copypasta...

Ah. Mea culpa, I did not get it as I have only been lurking for a few weeks. In that case hopefully OP's problem is resolved by simply reading the entry (at AoN, or the rulebook, or the post that reproduced it in this thread) and seeing that they are wrong.

[Matthew Downie]

Katanas are much more average than that. Much, much more average than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 486,000 Yen (that's about $4,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 hours now. I can now cut meat with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend anything up to three months working on a single katana and fold it up to sixteen times to produce adequate blades known to mankind.

Katanas are not quite as sharp as European swords, nor as hard for that matter. It's entirely possible that anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through. I'm pretty sure a katana could eventually bisect a man with simple horizontal slashes.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too far away from each other. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because they were a sign of rank.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply a sword that the world has seen, and thus, require stats in the P2e system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

Price: 2 gp; Damage: 1d6 S; Bulk: 1; Hands: 1; Category: Martial; Group: Sword
Traits: Deadly d8, Two-Hand 1d10, Uncommon, Versatile P

Now that seems a lot representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do adequate damage in P2e, see my stat block.

[QuidEst]

Easl wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, my message was an infamous copypasta...

Ah. Mea culpa, I did not get it as I have only been lurking for a few weeks. In that case hopefully OP's problem is resolved by simply reading the entry (at AoN, or the rulebook, or the post that reproduced it in this thread) and seeing that they are wrong.

No worries at all! I actually didn't change the katana stats to fit PF2 because then I'd have too many people potentially taking it seriously.

[Dubious Scholar]

Qaianna wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Well, the Katana in PF2 is specifically 1d6, deadly d8, and two hand 1d10.

Which means that compared to a 1d6 one handed sword its crits are far more deadly, and 1d8 one-handed swords generally don't have the two-hand option.

The most obvious poinst of comparison is the Bastard Sword, which has a die size increase in both 1h and 2h configurations, but lacks Deadly and Versatile P. Are deadly and versatile worth a die size? That seems like a tradeoff that isn't obvious in either direction.

But realistically a Katana should not be significantly more deadly than a rapier or scimitar despite the reputation of the weapon.

I think the designers treat Deadly d8 as worth a die size, at least.

They do, but I don't think the math holds up on it. Especially with the weird "gains another die on striking runes except not the first one". It's both confusing and weakens the trait when it doesn't need it.

[Ashbourne]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

Incidentally, the katana is actually arguably objectively better than the bastard sword. The bastard sword has very slightly better damage, but the katana has a ton more traits.

That's a good point. A bastard sword will do most of its damage on impact (uses a bigger die.) A katana or any curved sword like a sabor will do more damage as you draw the blade along the impact (has more traits).

[Deriven Firelion]

Katanas should do more damage for just looking that damn cool.

[Guntermench]

Squiggit wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

CaptainRelyk wrote:

The real question is why isn’t it finesse?

Same logic could be used for all swords. So then all swords get finesse.

Honestly? Probably. The whole notion of Strength vs Dexterity as some either-or mechanic is a bit wonky, especially since the weapon choice itself is kind of arbitrary and wrapped up more in weird balance considerations and historical debt than anything else.

Looks at Shadowrun 4e/5e using AGI to hit and STR for damage for all melee.

I am now legitimately curious how having everything finesse (but you have to use DEX) would go...

[Kobold Catgirl]

Honestly, I think the bastard sword looks insanely cool. I like swords.

[AestheticDialectic]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

Incidentally, the katana is actually arguably objectively better than the bastard sword. The bastard sword has very slightly better damage, but the katana has a ton more traits.

This hurts. I hate katanas, I love bastard swords

[zeonsghost]

Because you have to swing them like fishing poles if you don't want to break them, they should be nerfed to do as much damage as a fishing pole.

[Squiggit]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

Incidentally, the katana is actually arguably objectively better than the bastard sword. The bastard sword has very slightly better damage, but the katana has a ton more traits.

This hurts. I hate katanas, I love bastard swords

It's also not really correct. The katana does more damage on a crit, but even against low AC enemies on average the bastard sword wins.

The katana does have versatile P going for it but tht tends to be more of a low value trait.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Yeah, but, like, a +1 per damage die? I'm pretty comfortable saying you should generally trade that out for Deadly d8 and Versatile P. Truly, though, whether or not it's objectively better is clearly a matter of perspective. :P

[Perpdepog]

I'm in Camp Bastard Sword. I just really like the image of a fairly elegant swordsman suddenly switching to a two-handed grip and using their weapon like a big metal club.

[Richard Lowe]

QuidEst wrote:

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block

I'm convinced, let's riot.