PF2R Drow

[AceofMoxen]

I am glad the drow are gone. They were boring in the Forgotten realms. I read and did not enjoy the Drizzit novels. (I liked war of the spider queen) Lolth's story was misogynistic. Dark elves was the most boring answer to "What's underground?" The worst part was Drow fans who insisted that the Drow be the same in every setting. Eberron, Golarion, Greyhawk never got to re-imagine the culture because they had to accomodate Drizzit fans.

I highly recommend Lamentations of the Flame Priestess's Veins of the Earth book for what a novel and exciting look at underground adventure could be.

[fujisempai]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Omegon wrote:

But, like the concept of Elves or elf looking creatures that live deep underground and worship demons is not exactly something WoTC can sue Paizo over. That's what they should keep.

Since the Pathfinder Drow weren't really Demon worshipers, as they had made efforts to align the Drow more with the Proteans than Demons, it would be very surprising if they made the new underground elves demon worshipers, since that's more like the Forgotten Realms Drow than the Golarion Drow.

It's kind of funny how the new underground elven people being generally pretty friendly makes it so they're all kind of Drizzt-clones, though.

Was there something more recent that changed them to be aligned with proteans? I haven't read any 2e AP material and I recall each of the drow houses being aligned with a specific demon lord.

[keftiu]

fujisempai wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Omegon wrote:

But, like the concept of Elves or elf looking creatures that live deep underground and worship demons is not exactly something WoTC can sue Paizo over. That's what they should keep.

Since the Pathfinder Drow weren't really Demon worshipers, as they had made efforts to align the Drow more with the Proteans than Demons, it would be very surprising if they made the new underground elves demon worshipers, since that's more like the Forgotten Realms Drow than the Golarion Drow.

It's kind of funny how the new underground elven people being generally pretty friendly makes it so they're all kind of Drizzt-clones, though.

Was there something more recent that changed them to be aligned with proteans? I haven't read any 2e AP material and I recall each of the drow houses being aligned with a specific demon lord.

We hadn’t seen much of the Houses from Zirnakaynin in a long time, who probably weren’t the same as old canon anyway due to House Misraria’s patron becoming a goddess.

Abomination Vaults introduced Protean-friendly Drow and some wholly non-demonic Drow cities.

[Zaister]

AceofMoxen wrote:

The worst part was Drow fans who insisted that the Drow be the same in every setting. Eberron, Golarion, Greyhawk never got to re-imagine the culture because they had to accomodate Drizzit fans.

Never forget that the Forgotten Realms stole them from Greyhawk. Erelhei-Cinlu was there long before Menzoberranzan.

Basically, like they stole almost everything from somewhere else.

[NightTrace]

Paizo has earned my trust over the years so I am simply looking forward to what comes next! :)

[James Jacobs]

Nesba wrote:

So what will become of fleshwarps? Not the ancestry, but the monsters created through alchemical torture. Driders, irnakurses, grothluts, gomnits, gublasks, etc.?

Fleshwarps are all ours. Driders being called fleshwarps is something we did. But driders being so tied to drow means we'll need to do some adjusments, and at the very least rename them, but a "spider centaur" is not something that D&D can own, and the weird appearance we gave to our driders (which don't have sexy elf heads) are also ours. So it'll probably be limited to a new name and the scrubbing of the drow bit of flavor.

[James Jacobs]

Omegon wrote:

Hey, new poster here.

So I get that *drow* cant be used anymore, but why not reimagine them?

Call them Dark Elves etc. or make them a society of Nephilim Elves that worship demons. Change their look a bit if you must.

there are many ways to update drow to fit the move away from the OGL and D&D legacy without replacing them with lizards.

That's what we've been doing for the past several years, reimagining them, but we've come to the conclusion that they're SO D&D in theme that keeping the name and the roles and the looks that gamers have grown to love is so deeply a part of D&D that in order to revise them to a point we at Paizo would feel comfortable keeping the result in the game... it'd be so different that we might as well have just replaced them with something that already has a lot of lore built into the game already, like sekmin, than make up something brand new. If we were creating Golarion today, then a full reimagining might be more palatable to us, but that's not the case.

[James Jacobs]

And frankly, another element that is not insignificant? Like what they've done with drow or not, TSR and then WotC is why drow are as popular as they are. I myself had a tiny part in helping build that popularity with them during my time as an editor for Dungeon or a writer of D&D adventures.

I still think the idea of drow, as developed by TSR and WotC, has a lot of mileage and potential, particularly as they're developed into a new and more diverse culture that leaves behind the "evil black elves" that we were in the midst of pursuing this time last year.

But with this cutting of ties with the OGL legacy of the game and us forging forward to be our own selves, we have to make individual choices for ALL of the elements from D&D that we've benefited from through the years and decide what to do with those... to cut them loose, to adjust them, to replace them, whatever.

In the case of drow, cutting them lose and, essentially, returning them to D&D entirely does two things—it lets us go forward without that potential legal complication, and it lets Wizards of the Coast take up the reins of developing one of their most successful creations and bringing them into the future. They deserve that chance. If something we have done with drow in the past helps WotC to bring them into the future even stronger and less problematic, then I'll be proud of the fact that Paizo helped in that way and consider it giving back to the company whose OGL was so generous for so long that it helped Paizo and Pathfinder and Starfinder get to where they are today.

Maybe it's right that, about 17 to 18 years into Pathifnder's life, this happened. It's kind of like a child becoming an adult and moving out of their parent's house to strike out into the world on their own. During that span, we've learned a lot from D&D, and I hope D&D's learned a lot from us. We can still learn from each other going forward, but we're looking for our own place in the world now.

[Martialmasters]

im genuinely ok with this. like...i dunno, at my tables, if someone wanted to play drow, wed probably just say ok? and not think much of it.

fleshing out serpentfolk should be fun however.

amusingly my homebrew has serpentfolk as underground dwelling bad guys looking to take away land from the lizardfolk...both in a desert landscape surrounded by jungle and a section of desert overran with wandering undead.

[Lurker in Insomnia]

I am also not an IP lawyer, but it is pretty clear to me that in order to make Drow, you are going to have to make dark elves so distinct that they wouldn't be Drow anymore.

So in any Golarion that was going to step out of D&D's shadow/house, you wouldn't get anything recognizable as Drow. You wouldn't be able to talk about subterrestrial elves in a way recognizable as Drow.

We still have subterranean elves and a subterranean culture of hostiles to come in conflict with.

I don't envy Paizo having to put all their work and hopes for Drow on the cutting room floor, but nothing like a simple name swap would do it.

[McMoogle]

James Jacobs wrote:

...Maybe it's right that, about 17 to 18 years into Pathifnder's life, this happened. It's kind of like a child becoming an adult and moving out of their parent's house to strike out into the world on their own...

IN THIS ECONOMY?!

I kid. I just kind of chuckled to myself at this, but it is genuinely a satisfying response to the questions of "Why and why now?".

Thanks for everything that you and the team at Paizo are doing, James. The folks I play with were pretty stoked to hear about the Cavern Elves getting their own cultural name of Ayindilar and myself and another buddy I play with were all-in on the Hryngar and their whole societal structure built on manipulation and ulterior motives.

I will say that I'm sad for the folks who held Drow near and dear to their hearts, including it would seem, you yourself. But changing decades-old ideas doesn't happen in a day. Hopefully folks will come around, but if not, that's okay too. Change isn't easy, and is rarely accepted by all with open arms. But change is also often-times necessary, and I trust in the leadership of Paizo to steer the ship clear of icebergs, so to speak.

This PaizoCon was easily my favorite so far, so thank you all again for everything. Now give me a Stonelord champion archetype with all of this Dwarf content! (I'll accept Stalwart Defender as a stopgap while you all figure out the logistics of translating Stonelord from 1e to 2e :P)

[AuriAU]

I don't hate that Drow are being retconned that much, but I just wish that there were at least some other underground matriarchal elven culture to fill that gap. It was the one thing about drow that I didn't dislike. Matriarchal elves are cool. But well, I hope the Ayindilar are unique enough for me to not feel that loss.

[James Jacobs]

McMoogle wrote:

Now give me a Stonelord champion archetype with all of this Dwarf content! (I'll accept Stalwart Defender as a stopgap while you all figure out the logistics of translating Stonelord from 1e to 2e :P)

You'll need to chat up the Rules & Lore team and my counterpart there, Luis Loza, for that. In the meantime I'll keep setting up adventures for your stonelord to get into trouble in. ;-)

[crognus]

James Jacobs wrote:

And frankly, another element that is not insignificant? Like what they've done with drow or not, TSR and then WotC is why drow are as popular as they are. I myself had a tiny part in helping build that popularity with them during my time as an editor for Dungeon or a writer of D&D adventures.

I still think the idea of drow, as developed by TSR and WotC, has a lot of mileage and potential, particularly as they're developed into a new and more diverse culture that leaves behind the "evil black elves" that we were in the midst of pursuing this time last year.

But with this cutting of ties with the OGL legacy of the game and us forging forward to be our own selves, we have to make individual choices for ALL of the elements from D&D that we've benefited from through the years and decide what to do with those... to cut them loose, to adjust them, to replace them, whatever.

In the case of drow, cutting them lose and, essentially, returning them to D&D entirely does two things—it lets us go forward without that potential legal complication, and it lets Wizards of the Coast take up the reins of developing one of their most successful creations and bringing them into the future. They deserve that chance. If something we have done with drow in the past helps WotC to bring them into the future even stronger and less problematic, then I'll be proud of the fact that Paizo helped in that way and consider it giving back to the company whose OGL was so generous for so long that it helped Paizo and Pathfinder and Starfinder get to where they are today.

Maybe it's right that, about 17 to 18 years into Pathifnder's life, this happened. It's kind of like a child becoming an adult and moving out of their parent's house to strike out into the world on their own. During that span, we've learned a lot from D&D, and I hope D&D's learned a lot from us. We can still learn from each other going forward, but we're looking for our own place in the world now.

I am currently running a group through the APS in order and as we finish up Runelords, do you have any suggestion as to handle Second Darkness? Should I do something with “chaos elves?” That aren’t an ancestry but more like a group of elves being mind controlled by Rovagug? I want to fit the new canon of no Drow, but still run this AP.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

James Jacobs, even when you lose your beloved drow you show the most effortless and considerate…nee…maddeningly moderate encapsulation of how…to…move on. And to let that other kid have their ball and do their best with it. Kudos.

Shows over folks, go home. Nothing to see here.

[James Jacobs]

crognus wrote:

I am currently running a group through the APS in order and as we finish up Runelords, do you have any suggestion as to handle Second Darkness? Should I do something with “chaos elves?” That aren’t an ancestry but more like a group of elves being mind controlled by Rovagug? I want to fit the new canon of no Drow, but still run this AP.

If you and your group are comfortable building your own canon for Golarion as you go forward, run Second Darkness as-is. Since you're not publishing content for Pathifnder, you get to decide to keep drow as part of your game if you want. Then... if you DO catch up to us to a point where we publish something that contradicts your game's canon as regards drow, at that point you'll have to decide what to do. But since there are going to be about 200 adventures for you to go through before you reach that point, and possibly quite a few more if we don't do something with the Darklands that touches upon this specific subject (Sky King's Tomb does not, as far as I know)... you won't have to worry about that for a LOOOOONG time.

If you want to future proof your game's canon with what will be happening 200+ adventures in your table's future, though, my suggestion would be to run Second Darkness as-is, but the "drow" are instead just serpentfolk who are disguised as elves. Consider relocating Adventure 4 out of Zirnakaynin to a different city, since in our canon going forward, that city's going to remain a mystery for now, but again... that's over 200 adventures in your future so...

[crognus]

James Jacobs wrote:

crognus wrote:

I am currently running a group through the APS in order and as we finish up Runelords, do you have any suggestion as to handle Second Darkness? Should I do something with “chaos elves?” That aren’t an ancestry but more like a group of elves being mind controlled by Rovagug? I want to fit the new canon of no Drow, but still run this AP.

If you and your group are comfortable building your own canon for Golarion as you go forward, run Second Darkness as-is. Since you're not publishing content for Pathifnder, you get to decide to keep drow as part of your game if you want. Then... if you DO catch up to us to a point where we publish something that contradicts your game's canon as regards drow, at that point you'll have to decide what to do. But since there are going to be about 200 adventures for you to go through before you reach that point, and possibly quite a few more if we don't do something with the Darklands that touches upon this specific subject (Sky King's Tomb does not, as far as I know)... you won't have to worry about that for a LOOOOONG time.

If you want to future proof your game's canon with what will be happening 200+ adventures in your table's future, though, my suggestion would be to run Second Darkness as-is, but the "drow" are instead just serpentfolk who are disguised as elves. Consider relocating Adventure 4 out of Zirnakaynin to a different city, since in our canon going forward, that city's going to remain a mystery for now, but again... that's over 200 adventures in your future so...

Thanks for the suggestions! I play 7 games/campaigns of Pathfinder 2E a week for the last 3 years. (I know! I’m a crazy person!) Some set early from 4707-4709. Some of them from 4719 AR-4721 AR with overlap of players. All of them in the same continuity. So it does matter immediately.

[Zombull]

Good opportunity for some lore that kills off the Drow. Wouldn't even be hard to do it in a way that never says their name. You see, no one even remembers them. All that is left is ruins and fragments that can piece together what happened, but even the name of the race can no longer be found. Empty cities are discovered underground. Not ruins. Modern, intact cities. Just empty. Investigation reveals evidence of an underground race, probably elves, who had built a doomsday device to use against surface dwellers. They miscalculated and literally wiped themselves out of existence. Past, present, and future. No one can even find the merest mention of them in recorded elven history.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Zombull wrote:

Good opportunity for some lore that kills off the Drow. Wouldn't even be hard to do it in a way that never says their name. You see, no one even remembers them. All that is left is ruins and fragments that can piece together what happened, but even the name of the race can no longer be found. Empty cities are discovered underground. Not ruins. Modern, intact cities. Just empty. Investigation reveals evidence of an underground race, probably elves, who had built a doomsday device to use against surface dwellers. They miscalculated and literally wiped themselves out of existence. Past, present, and future. No one can even find the merest mention of them in recorded elven history.

They as a collective culture pissed off Irori so much that he just forgot them?

[siegfriedliner]

I imagine iff paizo wanted Dark Elves they could return them to their Norse routes call them Alfar and tie them more to their traditional fey heritage.

I couldn't imagine wotc could claim trademark over svartalfar any more than they could claim trademark on jinni or dybuks.

[PossibleCabbage]

We still have "Dark Elves" in the sense of "Elves who live underground" in the Ayindilar, and they may even have lilac or cerulean skin (like the Jinin, or well Drow.)

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

Erelhei-Cinlu was a wonderful city, especially all of the names of the Houses!

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

Interesting. Paizo has no problems using intellect devourers who appear in the D and D movie and are very TSR/WOTC monsters, dating back to at least 1E but no to the drow.

[RussGreene]

How does this affect Apostae when we get to Starfinder, I wonder? Still inhabited by evil indentured-servitude elves, just not with that name? Another alien species with the same vibe? Seeing as how House Zeizerer is a big deal in the Pact Worlds, and there's several important Drow NPCs, especially in the Starfinder Society metaplot.

[PossibleCabbage]

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Interesting. Paizo has no problems using intellect devourers who appear in the D and D movie and are very TSR/WOTC monsters, dating back to at least 1E but no to the drow.

Isn't the ORC version of the intellect devourer a totally different monster? Like it's not a brain on legs anymore at all, just a different monster (I think it's like a big worm) that eats your brain and steals your body?

I don't think people would have liked it if we changed "Drow" into a kind of subterranean troll (like their pre-D&D folklore origins) just so we could have the word "Drow" in the ORC.

[David knott 242]

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Interesting. Paizo has no problems using intellect devourers who appear in the D and D movie and are very TSR/WOTC monsters, dating back to at least 1E but no to the drow.

There are only so many ways to make a walking brain.

Drow are people, with as wide and varied a culture as any given author wishes to give them.

[Ectar]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Interesting. Paizo has no problems using intellect devourers who appear in the D and D movie and are very TSR/WOTC monsters, dating back to at least 1E but no to the drow.

Isn't the ORC version of the intellect devourer a totally different monster? Like it's not a brain on legs anymore at all, just a different monster (I think it's like a big worm) that eats your brain and steals your body?

I don't think people would have liked it if we changed "Drow" into a kind of subterranean troll (like their pre-D&D folklore origins) just so we could have the word "Drow" in the ORC.

Personally, the part that really rubs be the wrong way about the current handling of the drow is that it's just a retcon. There never were any drow to begin with.

And all Drow settlements, Zirnakaynin not withstanding, being converted to Sekmin ones.

There's a massive difference between "There were Drow and something happened to them" and "Aww geez, they were REALLY Serpentfolk all along"

[David knott 242]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Interesting. Paizo has no problems using intellect devourers who appear in the D and D movie and are very TSR/WOTC monsters, dating back to at least 1E but no to the drow.

Isn't the ORC version of the intellect devourer a totally different monster? Like it's not a brain on legs anymore at all, just a different monster (I think it's like a big worm) that eats your brain and steals your body?

I don't think people would have liked it if we changed "Drow" into a kind of subterranean troll (like their pre-D&D folklore origins) just so we could have the word "Drow" in the ORC.

Not to mention that a troll would be getting too far away from what gamers think of as drow. There are many other generic names that could be used that would summon up drow-like images. For the Golarion setting, "Darklands elves" would be an obvious choice.

[raegisemiel]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I've never understood the difference between "Drow" and "Underground Elves" to be honest. Like Drow were just underground elves with a specific culture. They're less different from surface elves than like "Aquatic Elves" are.

The difference is in the story. Drows are the once elves who gone down after the Earthfall. They represent the tragedy of those who were left behind from their brethren and the sorrow slowly transforming into hatred. Drows ultimately the most dangerous thing that can happen to an elf. A danger for evilest of elves to be so consumed by hatred, to lose one's nature. Drows are the most precious secret of elven race.

And Ayindilar are well boring rando elves who decided to live underground for no reason.

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

Are cave elves a 2e thing ised as a way to get darkvision for the elves, just like oyher low light vision races jabe their own option?

[Deriven Firelion]

There is so much lore on the drow across game systems and worlds, you can incorporate their lore into any world at this point and whatever flavor of lore you prefer from the Greyhawk Lolth days to the Faerun Menzo B lore to good drow with Eilstraee to the Golarion versions. Dark elves are so popular they are in nearly every major fantasy system and some version of dark elves was in Everquest and World of Warcraft.

People have all the lore for drow or dark elves they will ever need to use in a game world.

No offense to the Paizo people, but my favorite version will always be the Forgotten Realms drow and I'll never forget the experience of first seeing drow in the game when running Against the Giants and playing the Drow module series in Greyhawk. Lolth and the drow were such an interesting and new creation back then. No one had ever seen these beautiful, obsidian skinned faerie elves that worshipped this powerful spider demon goddess.

It was frightening and fascinating all at the same time. The fantasy world became obsessed with the drow. Gygax kept making more stuff for them as time went on. And Forgotten Realms further expanded and built on all of it.

The drow. One of the best fantasy creations of all time in the RPG gaming world.

[PossibleCabbage]

David knott 242 wrote:

Not to mention that a troll would be getting too far away from what gamers think of as drow. There are many other generic names that could be used that would summon up drow-like images. For the Golarion setting, "Darklands elves" would be an obvious choice.

Yeah, Golarion could have "Tiamat" if they clung very closely to the Mesopotamian deity of that name. But people would be confused about her not being a five headed chromatic dragon. So it's better to just not do that.

If you needed an evil female dragon deity to get involved in the Apsu/Dahak story, you should just come up with a new one at this point.

[Temperans]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Not to mention that a troll would be getting too far away from what gamers think of as drow. There are many other generic names that could be used that would summon up drow-like images. For the Golarion setting, "Darklands elves" would be an obvious choice.

Yeah, Golarion could have "Tiamat" if they clung very closely to the Mesopotamian deity of that name. But people would be confused about her not being a five headed chromatic dragon. So it's better to just not do that.

If you needed an evil female dragon deity to get involved in the Apsu/Dahak story, you should just come up with a new one at this point.

No they wouldn't just like people don't confuse Disney Thor with actual Thor or any other Thor.

Heck there are thousands of ways to make dark elves, just look at all the variations that exist through video games, TTRPGs, fantasy books, sci-fi books, etc. So yeah WotC owns their specific version of Drow. Meanwhile, Paizo owns their specific version of Drow, and if someone else makes a Drow they would own their specific version of it. Just like it happens with all the different elves, goblins, trolls, orcs, etc.

[Intoxicated Illithid]

I'm not one to post often, but I just feel the need to say I have faith that Paizo will continue to mold their world in unique and interesting ways that don't have to be connected to what WotC have already done. I liked drow, like someone who posted before a drow was among one of my first characters, but over the years I fell out of love with them and honestly I'm fine with seeing them go, and I'm excited to see what the serpentfolk might feel like in their place as the most dominant species underground.

[Shisumo]

raegisemiel wrote:

And Ayindilar are well boring rando elves who decided to live underground for no reason.

"For no reason" is an odd way to spell "in order to survive Earthfall and the aftermath, just the way the drow did," but you do you, I suppose.

[arcady]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Not to mention that a troll would be getting too far away from what gamers think of as drow. There are many other generic names that could be used that would summon up drow-like images. For the Golarion setting, "Darklands elves" would be an obvious choice.

Yeah, Golarion could have "Tiamat" if they clung very closely to the Mesopotamian deity of that name. But people would be confused about her not being a five headed chromatic dragon. So it's better to just not do that.

Mythological Tiamat is not so much a dragon as a sea-mother goddess who's blood and body were used to form the Earth. Sometimes she is seen as a dragon, or just the mother of dragons that she made to avenge her husbands murder at the hands of his own children.

That's not really a villain like the D&D Tiamat if you think about it. It's a woman who turns to desperation when her husband is killed, and is then killed by those she was trying to stop. Her story is a tragedy.

That seriously bad angle on mythology was a theme in early D&D...

There's a LOT of OGL stuff that could be salvaged simply by looking to it's source material and doing it properly for a change.

[AceofMoxen]

Temperans wrote:

No they wouldn't just like people don't confuse Disney Thor with actual Thor or any other Thor.

People confuse Marvel's Thor with the Myth all the time.

RussGreene wrote:

How does this affect Apostae when we get to Starfinder, I wonder? Still inhabited by evil indentured-servitude elves, just not with that name? Another alien species with the same vibe? Seeing as how House Zeizerer is a big deal in the Pact Worlds, and there's several important Drow NPCs, especially in the Starfinder Society metaplot.

One of the Starfinder devs talked about that: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43trh?So-what-is-going-to-happen-to-Apostae

[Unicore]

raegisemiel wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I've never understood the difference between "Drow" and "Underground Elves" to be honest. Like Drow were just underground elves with a specific culture. They're less different from surface elves than like "Aquatic Elves" are.

The difference is in the story. Drows are the once elves who gone down after the Earthfall. They represent the tragedy of those who were left behind from their brethren and the sorrow slowly transforming into hatred. Drows ultimately the most dangerous thing that can happen to an elf. A danger for evilest of elves to be so consumed by hatred, to lose one's nature. Drows are the most precious secret of elven race.

And Ayindilar are well boring rando elves who decided to live underground for no reason.

This story about the "Drow" representing the most dangerous thing that can happen to an elf, and that elves continue to turn into Drow after the initial corruption of Rovagug is something that Paizo has been trying to Errata out of the lore for years and years. 2nd darkness really ran with it, but James has talked at great length about how hard he has worked to reverse this, because it is the full source of the most problematic aspects of the "Drow is a metaphor for the incredibly problematic Curse of Ham." Trying to fix this with new lore has been something Paizo has been doing over and over again over the last several years, but it is clear that people keep picking it up and running with it, and it making it into owlcat games probably only intensified the need to really put the idea to rest fully.

I really do understand the decision to just let the Drow story go entirely rather than have to spend another 10 years trying explain what has changed. It will be a lot easier to get away from that mistake if people just don't have a "this is the new drow" to heap all that baggage on.

[darth_borehd]

sirgog wrote:

Caldax the Shadow wrote:

This is a decision I cannot agree with. Drow are second favorite version of elves and to see them just cast aside like this is just WRONG. I've already told people at my table and game groups I'm doing the opposite and will be banning serpentfolk and instead expanding the Drow lore and such even more.

I love Pathfinder, I love the drow, and see them cast aside like this in all honesty almost feels like a good friend being dragged away to never be seen again by another friend who is trying instead to shove what feels like a stranger into the group and acting like nothing has changed.

It's not Paizo's decision, it's American copyright law.

Drow cannot be used without the OGL. WotC made using the OGL no longer viable. If Paizo print something with Drow, WotC will sue and an American court will seize all the product and destroy it.

How is that possible??? Aren't dark elves from Scandinavian folklore and drow from Scottish folklore? Sure they would be public domain after hundreds of years, right?

I don't understand how WOTC can claim they own them now. Can somebody explain this?

[Rysky]

The do not own dark/undergound elves.

They do for all intents and purposes own the non-white skinned white haired sensually clad matriarchal demon worshipping evil elves that live underground, which are not from real world myth. Paizo can't safely step around that, they could by completely changing everything about the Drow... but that would mean completely changing everything about the Drow.

[Temperans]

darth_borehd wrote:

sirgog wrote:

Caldax the Shadow wrote:

This is a decision I cannot agree with. Drow are second favorite version of elves and to see them just cast aside like this is just WRONG. I've already told people at my table and game groups I'm doing the opposite and will be banning serpentfolk and instead expanding the Drow lore and such even more.

I love Pathfinder, I love the drow, and see them cast aside like this in all honesty almost feels like a good friend being dragged away to never be seen again by another friend who is trying instead to shove what feels like a stranger into the group and acting like nothing has changed.

It's not Paizo's decision, it's American copyright law.

Drow cannot be used without the OGL. WotC made using the OGL no longer viable. If Paizo print something with Drow, WotC will sue and an American court will seize all the product and destroy it.

How is that possible??? Aren't dark elves from Scandinavian folklore and drow from Scottish folklore? Sure they would be public domain after hundreds of years, right?

I don't understand how WOTC can claim they own them now. Can somebody explain this?

Some people think that because WotC owns a very specific version, that paizo cannot create their own version. Paizo chose to straight up not bother and get rid of most if not all references.

Despite the fact you have a whole lot of stories that copy other stories, but change enough that you can still call them independent or "inspired by". Like all the stories that copy Tolkien, all the stories that copy cyberpunk, etc.

[Rysky]

It wasn't their own version though, it was a copy of DND that they tweaked to suit their setting.

Paizo could very much create their own version of dark elves, but again, it would be their own version of dark elves.

Eberron Drow were more of a departure from DND Drow than Paizo's were.

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Yeah, Pathfinder drow were just D&D drow except not into spiders but demon lords instead.

If you read Second Darkness editorials and forum posts from that time, Paizo writers were literally "we can use drow thanks to OGL, but Llolth is a no-go, so we decided to make something that's as much the good old FR drow you love just with enough serial numbers filed off".

Turns out, what was enough of serial numbers to be filed off in 2008 isn't enough in 2023.

[darth_borehd]

Rysky wrote:

The do not own dark/undergound elves.

They do for all intents and purposes own the non-white skinned white haired sensually clad matriarchal demon worshipping evil elves that live underground, which are not from real world myth. Paizo can't safely step around that, they could by completely changing everything about the Drow... but that would mean completely changing everything about the Drow.

I don't see how that argument holds water.

WoTC also claims they own Yuan-ti but Paizo just started calling them serpentfolk and now Sekmin.

Retconning "drow" as "serpentfolk/Sekmin" seems a totally bonkers Rube Goldberg-esque construction considering how Yuan-ti were already re-purposed.

Just do the same thing with "drow" that was already done with "yuan-ti" and be done with it seems far more satisfying and easier.

Just as an example:

• They are properly called "dokkálfar" or just dark elves. The word "drow" is a Dwarven exonym that originally meant "troll-like." It was was occasionally used mistakenly in the past. (and never use "drow" in any other product again to refer to "dark elves")
  
• They no longer live exclusively underground but some choose to do so just like human groups and other surface dwellers could if they wanted.
  
• They can be just as evil or good as any human.
  
• Like humans and other PC races, there are some groups and cults that have evil plans (most dark elves were appalled at the cultist group that caused Second Darkness).
  
• They don't worship spiders more than anybody else. Some dark elves like spiders but that is merely a coincidence.
  
• Dark elves can be found mingling in above-ground cities just as often as wood elves, aquatic elves, snow elves, etc
  
• Dark elves live all over Golarion. There are dark elf paladins in Andora just like Cheliax has Dark Elf Antipaladins.
  
• Things like driders, fleshwarping, etc are the results of evil wizards like the ones that made abominations out of humans.
  
• Basically, any evil things attributed to "drow in general" were done by evil people or groups that just happened to be dark elves.
  

[Unicore]

There is definitely a mess of confusion about all of this. Paizo still owns all the PF1 material they wrote. They still own OGL PF2 and all of that material is still in print, and stuff you can buy and use. Moving forward in the setting it isn’t going to be used any more and that also means it isn’t going to be referenced. New stories set in heavy OGL influenced material are going to tell very different stories that don’t feature those old stories them selves, but you can still use any of it you want. You can still tell all the PF2 or PF1 Drow stories you ever want to. Paizo never wants to tell another new one again and move their setting away from people expecting them to, including telling new stories about how the surface dwellers have portrayed and misreprented the underdark.