PF2R Drow

[The Raven Black]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

The skin color choice was made to my understanding because it's scarier to have underground elves that blend in with the darkness.

Gygax could have gone the typical albino for underground creatures for the drow. He wanted to do something different that was scarier than the standard colorless albino type of creature you normally find underground.

I thought it was a cool choice that gave them an incredibly unique appearance.

The fact that they blended in so perfectly with the Underdark while being able to see perfectly in it was one of the scarier aspects of the drow.

I think he merely did it for the literal negative aspect of the very white elves. And maybe also inspired by Elric the Melnibonean, even though Elric ended up fighting demons and (Evil) Chaos and other Melniboneans (who were clearly elves, but CE, summoning demons and worshipping CE deities) did not have white hair.

[Deriven Firelion]

An interesting question would be if Gygax had not made the drow as they were when made, would we even be talking about them 40 plus years after their creation? Would they even exist?

The drow appearance is such an inherent part of who they were and Lolth was also part of their allure. Lolth looked amazing in many of her drawings. This demon spider goddess that corrupted this group of elves and drove them to always seek power and domination through constant conflict made them interesting.

When they first came out, their appearance was part of the intrigue of the drow along with their lore.

Change much of their lore or their appearance and I doubt the drow even form a blip on the fantasy RPG radar.

Even now as the drow get more watered down, people care less and less about them. Once their named is changed in Golarion and their lore even more, they will be all but forgotten.

[magnuskn]

Eh, I'm just gonna pretend in my games that the Drow which are canon on Golarion were immigrants from a realm best forgotten and therefore there's a limited supply of them around, thus there's no new lore to be had.

Starfinder, OTOH... that's gonna be doubly painful for the players of that system when the hammer comes down, because Drow are much more ingrained in that world.

[Kevin Mack]

magnuskn wrote:

Eh, I'm just gonna pretend in my games that the Drow which are canon on Golarion were immigrants from a realm best forgotten and therefore there's a limited supply of them around, thus there's no new lore to be had.

Starfinder, OTOH... that's gonna be doubly painful for the players of that system when the hammer comes down, because Drow are much more ingrained in that world.

I suspect they will probably have a bit more space to decide what to do with drow in starfinder since it is a more scifi setting than pathfinder (That and I suspect it being way less of a flagship product means it has less of an impact if they do have to pull things down the road.)

[Charlie Brooks]

For the "give an explanation, then never mention them again" group...

1) Isn't that functionally the same thing? Either way, drow aren't in future stories. Or are there folks who feel like Second Darkness/Abomination Vaults no longer "count" if they aren't referred to by future products?

2) Where should the final development occur? We've got two adventure paths, a couple Lost Omens books unrelated to the Darklands, and then the ORC license is the new normal. There's not exactly room in the product schedule for something that has no role in future plans. Or would a blog entry satisfy the need?

Honest questions. My favorite character is a drow (he's been a cavern elf who lost his drow trait through being on the surface for too long since the start of 2e), and the drow will still exist in my setting. I'm just not sure there's a good solution for Paizo as a publisher.

[MMCJawa]

The Raven Black wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

The skin color choice was made to my understanding because it's scarier to have underground elves that blend in with the darkness.

Gygax could have gone the typical albino for underground creatures for the drow. He wanted to do something different that was scarier than the standard colorless albino type of creature you normally find underground.

I thought it was a cool choice that gave them an incredibly unique appearance.

The fact that they blended in so perfectly with the Underdark while being able to see perfectly in it was one of the scarier aspects of the drow.

I think he merely did it for the literal negative aspect of the very white elves. And maybe also inspired by Elric the Melnibonean, even though Elric ended up fighting demons and (Evil) Chaos and other Melniboneans (who were clearly elves, but CE, summoning demons and worshipping CE deities) did not have white hair.

It's been commented on before in the forums, but Drow are heavily drawn from the Black Martians of the John Carter novels.

[MMCJawa]

magnuskn wrote:

Eh, I'm just gonna pretend in my games that the Drow which are canon on Golarion were immigrants from a realm best forgotten and therefore there's a limited supply of them around, thus there's no new lore to be had.

Starfinder, OTOH... that's gonna be doubly painful for the players of that system when the hammer comes down, because Drow are much more ingrained in that world.

Somewhere else a member of the Starfinder team commented that when Starfinder does eventually switch over to ORC (which isn't for a few years), the "Drow" will stick around, but get tweaked and a new name. An example was for instance getting rid of the houses and just having them have corporations. Starfinder Drow are already pretty distinctive what with them having taken over Apostae and being space arms dealers.

[Unicore]

Nephilim are a pretty different concept than tiefling. Like” tiefling” fits within the concept, but very little about the Nephilim are as static in “this is how all of us exist.” People might look at a specific character built as a Nephilim and say, oh that is a tiefling, but they can’t project decades of other companies ideas on to a Nephilim versatile heritage and completely confuse the entire lore of the game up over it, which has been consistently happening in every conversation about Drow I have seen happen on these boards in the last 10 years.

You can be pretty sure that an idea isn’t really yours when no one listens to you about how it works in your own game world. That seems to be a pretty clear lesson that folks at Paizo have learned about what elements from the OGL they don’t want to Cary over.

[Unicore]

Like anything that feels like it is just a coat of paint and name change away from someone else’s content is something Paizo is actively trying to get out of the ORC. If it is something general fans spend hundreds of posts on a message board talking about and are still confused what is original to Golarion, what is rooted in deep folklore, and what is pretty stuff that can be attributed to specific authors from other companies, then it material that needs to be treated very carefully.

[The Thing From Another World]

All Paizo is doing is simply taking Tieflings and possibly Celestials keeping them as is and changing their name. I know my group is going to keep referring to both as their OGL pre-remaster names of the above.

Would it have been that hard to just change the color of the Drow skin and keep them as is in the remaster it just seems like the Drow unlike many other races are being singled out.

Many players imo are going to keep referring to Gnolls, Duegar as those names. As I said if the company as a whole are uncomfortable with some elements of the Drow or the Curse of Ham aspect just admit it. They won’t please everybody and may lose some fans. They won’t and will never be able to please everybody.

[AceofMoxen]

Rysky wrote:

Scott Henry wrote:

I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?

That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.

Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.

Which actually is closer to the original tieflings from planescape. Tieflings was a term for any offspring of mortal and planar beings. I miss those old Tieflngs, they were so much weirder.

[The Raven Black]

The Thing From Another World wrote:

All Paizo is doing is simply taking Tieflings and possibly Celestials keeping them as is and changing their name. I know my group is going to keep referring to both as their OGL pre-remaster names of the above.

Would it have been that hard to just change the color of the Drow skin and keep them as is in the remaster it just seems like the Drow unlike many other races are being singled out.

Many players imo are going to keep referring to Gnolls, Duegar as those names. As I said if the company as a whole are uncomfortable with some elements of the Drow or the Curse of Ham aspect just admit it. They won’t please everybody and may lose some fans. They won’t and will never be able to please everybody.

You might want to re-read the posts of James Jacobs in this very thread. They feel quite honest to me.

Why specifically the drows ?

That is just not true. There are many others things that will disappear forever. So, why focus so much on the drows ?

Tell you why : because DnD created a hugely popular and iconic thing with the drows that touched on being archetypal and resonated with many people, as this thread clearly shows.

DnD did this. Not Paizo.

[Rysky]

AceofMoxen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Scott Henry wrote:

I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?

That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.

Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.

Which actually is closer to the original tieflings from planescape. Tieflings was a term for any offspring of mortal and planar beings. I miss those old Tieflngs, they were so much weirder.

You ever seen a Motherless? They get pretty weird in Pathfinder.

[AceofMoxen]

Freehold DM wrote:

No one is going to be happy about any of this.

I'm willing to say I'm happy about this. I never liked the drow, and I'm glad they're gone.

[AceofMoxen]

Rysky wrote:

AceofMoxen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Scott Henry wrote:

I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?

That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.

Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.

Which actually is closer to the original tieflings from planescape. Tieflings was a term for any offspring of mortal and planar beings. I miss those old Tieflngs, they were so much weirder.

You ever seen a Motherless? They get pretty weird in Pathfinder.

The motherless are my favorite in Owlcat's games, but the old tieflings were even weirder. You rolled d100 on three different tables to find your abilities.

[Unicore]

None of us have actually read the description for Nephilim in the remastered game yet, but it is a versatile heritage that can be applied to any ancestry to make a character that has the influence of any number of outsiders from different planes running through their blood. In Golarion, there are many different types, in many different places, that are treated differently by the people around them.

Again, you can make a character that looks like a D&D tiefling with the versatile heritage, but you can make a character that looks and acts and feels a lot different too. Calling Nephilim the Tiefling/celestial heritage and trying to force D&D ideas over it is going to mean ignoring the very many different characters and peoples of Golarion that don’t fit in those two boxes.

If that is your standard of keeping them around, then you can still find elves who live underground, who have various shades of skin and hair color and can worship any cosmic beings you want in Golarion. If you want to call your character a Drow, or set up a community of specific elves in a game you are running to be a Drow community, that is still easily done.

[Temperans]

The Raven Black wrote:

The Thing From Another World wrote:

All Paizo is doing is simply taking Tieflings and possibly Celestials keeping them as is and changing their name. I know my group is going to keep referring to both as their OGL pre-remaster names of the above.

Would it have been that hard to just change the color of the Drow skin and keep them as is in the remaster it just seems like the Drow unlike many other races are being singled out.

Many players imo are going to keep referring to Gnolls, Duegar as those names. As I said if the company as a whole are uncomfortable with some elements of the Drow or the Curse of Ham aspect just admit it. They won’t please everybody and may lose some fans. They won’t and will never be able to please everybody.

You might want to re-read the posts of James Jacobs in this very thread. They feel quite honest to me.

Why specifically the drows ?

That is just not true. There are many others things that will disappear forever. So, why focus so much on the drows ?

Tell you why : because DnD created a hugely popular and iconic thing with the drows that touched on being archetypal and resonated with many people, as this thread clearly shows.

DnD did this. Not Paizo.

Paizo did this for Golarion Drow, Salvatore did this for the general concept of drow. DnD didn't really do this.

Literally just look at all the dark elves through out fantasy to see that not every "dark elf" is just the DnD version. Golarion's dark elves are not the same as DnD dark elves. Sharing two or three things does not make Golarion and DnD drow the same when they have 10 differences.

Its like the meme of the woman saying its the same picture, but only against Drow.

[Temperans]

AceofMoxen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

AceofMoxen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Scott Henry wrote:

I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?

That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.

Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.

Which actually is closer to the original tieflings from planescape. Tieflings was a term for any offspring of mortal and planar beings. I miss those old Tieflngs, they were so much weirder.

You ever seen a Motherless? They get pretty weird in Pathfinder.

The motherless are my favorite in Owlcat's games, but the old tieflings were even weirder. You rolled d100 on three different tables to find your abilities.

The random table from PF1 were great, so sad they got rid of that.

Also very few use the motherless or any of the more alien/ugly tieflings. Everybody just uses the same old "humanoid with horns" typically with red skin.

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

IIRC the description of Drow as the dark elves with dark skin was set to be a contrast to the grey elves. They are as evil as the faeries are good.

[Creative Burst]

Temperans wrote:

Paizo did this for Golarion Drow, Salvatore did this for the general concept of drow. DnD didn't really do this.

Literally just look at all the dark elves through out fantasy to see that not every "dark elf" is just the DnD version. Golarion's dark elves are not the same as DnD dark elves. Sharing two or three things does not make Golarion and DnD drow the same when they have 10 differences.

Its like the meme of the woman saying its the same picture, but only against Drow.

James Jacob clearly stated that when Drow besides there origin were DnD Drow and before January had somethings since there first intro to differencing them but not enough for them to be distinct from Dnds.

Yes there can be many types of dark elves. Cavern Elves will be for Golorian nots something Drow like that could get them sued.

[Jacob Jett]

Honestly I look at Cavern Elves as being similar to the Dark Elves in the Record of Lodoss War ttrpg (basically Japan's take on D&D; also with a pedigree dating back to '88).

In essence, Paizo is now in Group SNE's position. And yeah, it sucks that some things are going away. But ultimately, like a fire burning through an old-growth forest, there's going to be ample opportunities for new things to grow.

That is exciting.

[no good scallywag]

The Thing From Another World wrote:

If Paizo is going to use the OGL as a reason and it’s such a huge factor then they should have not converted or brought over any OGL content at all imo. Otherwise it just seems contradictory that a whole bunch of stuff can be brought over into the Remaster OGL notwithstanding.

So I can see why some poster see social issues as one of the reasons why. As I said before if Paizo is bothers by the origin of the Drow just say it as a company.

100% this. People saying the changes are all OGL are not correct. However, people at Paizo have always stated the bothersome ideas of the Drow, hence the lack of publications and stories that include them. It's been a thing with Paizo for a long time.

[Jacob Jett]

no good scallywag wrote:

I guess Second Darkness, Extinction Curse and Abomination Vaults didn't happen, then, since there were Drow in them? The whole retcon thing is what is bothering me and others, I think. But I do really like the power focus in the Darklands to be centered on serpentfolk over Drow. In my Golarion campaigns, the Drow were never the top power of the Darklands. What would have been super cool was a plot wherein the serpentfolk actually waged total war on the Drow and overtook them as a power, rather than just wiping the board clean of them with some strange explanation that was given.

Personally, I believe the new storyline is ambiguous enough that this can be what happened. There's just no APs showcasing this grand struggle (that the Drow lose).

no good scallywag wrote:

The Thing From Another World wrote:

If Paizo is going to use the OGL as a reason and it’s such a huge factor then they should have not converted or brought over any OGL content at all imo. Otherwise it just seems contradictory that a whole bunch of stuff can be brought over into the Remaster OGL notwithstanding.

So I can see why some poster see social issues as one of the reasons why. As I said before if Paizo is bothers by the origin of the Drow just say it as a company.

100% this. People saying the changes are all OGL are not correct. However, people at Paizo have always stated the bothersome ideas of the Drow, hence the lack of publications and stories that include them. It's been a thing with Paizo for a long time.

While I do love Paizo and PF2, consistency in design decisions is a place where they've had QA problems. Just reading through the first 6~8 books published, I've definitely felt a...not-quite-schizophrenic...but definitely a...the-same-person-is-not-at-the-wheel...sensation. Which, IMO, has led to the game's collection of warts, moles, and other fiddly nitpick issues. It would be nice if the game was more consistent but it is what it is. I.e., it's still a Ferrari, warts and all. We just need to ride out this rough patch.

Ironically, Paizo could organize the community to help with the revision process, especially for content from the non-core books that is nonetheless affected by the shift from OGL content. Community patches are things. We could collectively be yoked to this task. Speaking for myself, I'd be willing to volunteer some time to help out. Many hands make light work of monumental tasks and all that.

[Temperans]

Creative Burst wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Paizo did this for Golarion Drow, Salvatore did this for the general concept of drow. DnD didn't really do this.

Literally just look at all the dark elves through out fantasy to see that not every "dark elf" is just the DnD version. Golarion's dark elves are not the same as DnD dark elves. Sharing two or three things does not make Golarion and DnD drow the same when they have 10 differences.

Its like the meme of the woman saying its the same picture, but only against Drow.

James Jacob clearly stated that when Drow besides there origin were DnD Drow and before January had somethings since there first intro to differencing them but not enough for them to be distinct from Dnds.

Yes there can be many types of dark elves. Cavern Elves will be for Golorian nots something Drow like that could get them sued.

Yes. In that comment its me saying "It would had been great if they took the last few steps to finish the separation. Like with a previous comment were I suggested accelerating the timeline to how the Drow arrived in Apostae and took over that planet. Or adding in a new big bad that destroys them without just saying "it never happened".

[PossibleCabbage]

Do we know what color skin and hair the Ayindilar are going to tend to have? I can't see saying "no, you can't be purple" if that's something a player really wants (look, I'm going to let humans be purple too if that matters to somebody). I'm sure some of them are going to be evil too.

What we're losing for sure (since there are still underground elves, occasionally purple, and occasionally evil) is that "these elves have a sprawling empire" and "they have plans that would make the people on the surface have a bad time." Which are probably things that matter more to people who do long-range narrative planning than people actually running games.

[Lurker in Insomnia]

If they published anything regarding the Drow without permission to use Hasbro's IP, Hasbro could sue them. And it would be Hasbro financing it, even if maybe it would be WotC on the paperwork. WotC didn't even get credit for D&D in the D&D movie.

As soon as the OGL wasn't an option, Drow days were numbered. Paizo couldn't have anything called or recognizable as Drow.

Second Darkness happened. Abomination Vaults happened. However, the important parts of those stories are that the second earthfall didn't happen and Belcora didn't activate the Gauntlight.

Whether or not there were officially Drow doesn't invalidate any game anymore than any of the other canon endings of previous adventures.

Did every single Reign of Winter game end with the PCs installing Anastasia on the throne of Irrisen? No, but she's queen now.

The weird thing is, if Paizo said "we're calling Drow "cavern elves" now and doing some things we think will be fun and we are also going to do more with serpent people," would people have been happier with the lie? It would have been the same thing, no more Drow or things recognizable as Drow. Just dishonest with us instead of transparent.

[Creative Burst]

Temperans wrote:

Creative Burst wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Paizo did this for Golarion Drow, Salvatore did this for the general concept of drow. DnD didn't really do this.

Literally just look at all the dark elves through out fantasy to see that not every "dark elf" is just the DnD version. Golarion's dark elves are not the same as DnD dark elves. Sharing two or three things does not make Golarion and DnD drow the same when they have 10 differences.

Its like the meme of the woman saying its the same picture, but only against Drow.

James Jacob clearly stated that when Drow besides there origin were DnD Drow and before January had somethings since there first intro to differencing them but not enough for them to be distinct from Dnds.

Yes there can be many types of dark elves. Cavern Elves will be for Golorian nots something Drow like that could get them sued.

Yes. In that comment its me saying "It would had been great if they took the last few steps to finish the separation. Like with a previous comment were I suggested accelerating the timeline to how the Drow arrived in Apostae and took over that planet. Or adding in a new big bad that destroys them without just saying "it never happened".

As has been stated before there no good place for those. Plus Starfinder the gap is a signifier of a separation from Pathfinder something that keeps them narratively separate. Bringing them Apstae would ruin that. Also killing an entire people group especially one as popular as Drow would still make people upset but be deeply distasteful.

They only had two option Paizo had were just outright change them so much that they couldn't be recognized as Drow or remove them. One is a lot more work and will still cause backlash and if your changing something so rapidly it easier just to swap it with something else. Which is what they are doing.

[The Raven Black]

For Starfinder, the drows there seem sufficiently different from the DnD ones that Paizo could tweak them (renaming being pretty compulsory IMO) so that they stay recognizable by the fans AND far enough from WotC's work that Paizo and their lawyers fell it's safe enough.

In PF2, it is impossible.

[Lurker in Insomnia]

I think they said Starfinder is still under OGL, so they can have all the Drow they want and a double helping on Sundays. They may still need to do something about that, but that sounds like a tomorrow Paizo problem.

[Edward the Necromancer]

The Thing From Another World wrote:

At this point I’m good with the change though l do hope we get to see some truly evil empires and races in the Remaster world background of Golarion. Not every race had to be evil yet not every race has to be good either imo,

I'd rather just have the "evil empires" and not bother with the evil "races".

You can have an evil Human empire without implying that all humans themselves are evil.

[Inarea]

The Norse own the copyright to "dark skinned elves that live underground", not wotc.

[The Raven Black]

Inarea wrote:

The Norse own the copyright to "dark skinned elves that live underground", not wotc.

And these are not drows, nor recognizable as such by those who love the TTRPGs drows (ie DnD's drows and their variants).

So, it would never be enough to satisfy those who berate Paizo for not keeping the drows.