This really sparked a lot more conversation then I expected, even if it has derailed a bit.
Regardless, I want to thank those of you who provided suggestions for alternate routes to play my character. I will better address that with a response to this comment. However, I will address that the class was built with a Dex-based spellblade in mind and with that in mind alone, so even if other builds are possible...that doesn't mean that they are optimal enough in their own right to enjoy them properly. I've also reviewed every single Magus archetype off and on a couple of times, and I can't say I saw much that really spiced the class up that much without sacrificing core concepts without getting a lot back in return...or just doing what must archetypes do and make you a bit more like another class.
The best ones I can think of are the Puppetmaster and Spell Trapper, and the latter gets a big penalty when it comes to picking Magus Arcanas, and I didn't pick an archetype with my character Tonga because of all the negatives but if I did Soul Forger would have been the best to have an even higher Craft than I already do...but I'm not sure less spells is worth it.
yep, which is why there are quite a few Archetypes, plus the ability to multiclass.There are a vast number of ways to play a Magus, some are exceptionally good, others are decent, and a couple are just bad.
IMO, your character concept didn't fit the Magus class at all. Not saying it isn't possible to do, I bet I could build a decent one, just that it really doesn't fit.
Now you may argue this as a fault in PF1, but picking a class that matches your concept is pretty important. If you are wanting to try to do something with your character that it's classes were not meant to do, then you aren't going to have a good time. Being an Wizard, but wanting to be the party healer - while it can be done, you are very subpar at it. Playing a Fighter, but wanting to cast spells all day. Again, possible, but sub par.
From what I can see, Multiclassing info Fighter (Titan fighter)/Cleric might have been a better option. Or, just going for Blood Rager
Both have the ability to Forge weapons, and to be a frontline fighter with a 2 handed, magically charged weapon.
So the whole point of Tonga, an Aphorite raised by a volcanic dwarf, is that she can utilize both martial and magical prowess. She is studying how to make magical weapons in this grim-dark homebrew world she's in because the frozen north ain't no joke and there aren't enough mighty people to go around to deal with the problems everyday folk have in an unforgiving world...but if she could learn to master crafting magical weapons, she could provide them to more people and train them to wield them effectively so that every village has a fighting chance.
Her father has already taught her much in terms of crafting normal weapons, but she wants to travel the world with the Inquisition to help others and learn about new weapons, and understand magic on a much deeper level so as to provide people the knowledge and power they need to survive...and the Magus really seems perfect to me for something like that. The issue is less that a STR-based Magus doesn't work at all, but more that the Magus is front-loaded with so many negatives that at low levels you have to have a bunch of high stats and/or use up your early feats to make the class *FUN* to play.
That is my whole argument here: that PF1e Magus just has too much built into it that hurts it at its early levels and doesn't get resolved until much later down that line that it forces you to use your feats as a stopgap instead of personalizing your playstyle. If we started at 5th level, I may never have made this discussion thread because I would never have suffered the issues I have to then see how narrow and punishing the design of Magus is. By 5th level Blade Tutor wipes out the entire natural penalty of Spell Combat, and Power Attack wouldn't be giving more than a -1 until the very next level, so having a +6 to hit within Spell Combat while using Power Attack and not factoring in Arcane Pool buffs or anything else from another spell/Magus Arcana/and upgraded weapon seems pretty good, and I would have 2nd lvl spells AND more feats ?
But no, we started at 1st Lvl and trying to hit anything as someone who often rolls low unless it's thematic (confirmed by multiple groups, with both in-person and online dice rolls), I was suffering in combat compared to my party.
Now I have other issues with the class that are more personal, and I discovered one of them yesterday with a friend, and those are that I don't enjoy classes that are mostly about hitting stuff without any extra flair and I can't play Tonga how I want with how Spellstrike and the Magus are designed.
Now I've seen that the Magus can do all sorts of stuff, but their limited spells per day and being a prepared caster goes against what I was looking for before we even get into the problem that Spellstrike is what led me into wanting to play the class. I was hoping that I would get some more spells that would do cool things on hit, like big knockback or weaken their defenses or inflict status effects on the enemy...but it seems Spellstrike is 90% focused on damage output, and even Arcane Pool doesn't give a ton of variety and mostly just flavors of damage for resistance/weakness purposes. Maybe there are a line of Magus Arcana/feats that would make it so I could use ANY spell with Spellstrike? If that's the case, that alone might bring back my interest in the class, but all I found was including Ranged Touch Attack spells at most. You can see where this might cause someone who doesn't JUST want to roll dice to do big numbers in combat when the Class Feature you are most interested in seems to be there just to push up those damage numbers.
Now the issue with Tonga is she is a big girl who swings big hammers, and that is what I want out of the character, which as I said I thought Spellstrike was going to give a fun way to add more damage and cast spells...but if I focus on Spellstrike, I will NEVER really shine with damage without fishing for crits...but if I want to stick with her wielding hammers I'm not going to be able to do that because applying Keen via Arcane Pool is ONLY for P/S weapons, not B. Even I could or did with my Lucerne Hamer, Keen would only bump that to a 19-20, so realistically the number of resources I would have to spend to get these weapons even close to being able to crit-fish would be would be too high to be worth it. In addition, some of the other Arcane Pool affects give base elemental damage but then ALSO trigger on a crit, so there is yet more crit-fishing built into the class...so it's almost like the class wants you to wield a one-handed light weapon with a high crit range already, which as I said, makes the class to narrow in its focus.
It's just a bit unfortunate that the Magus suffers more early on than other classes for really no good reason, combined with my desire for the character clashing with how the class *wants* to function.
As for the recommendations given to me, I never looked at the Bloodrager because I had an assumption it was Barbarian mixed with Fighter or another martial class, and thus no magic at all. I see that I was wrong, and I may have to review the class. The party doesn't want me to run Skald due to the AC drop and the effect on our Warpriestess in regards to spells, but now we have a martial class joining us so that changes things up altogether as before we only had a Rogue who sacrificed Sneak Attack for more skills and a Witch Hunter.
Knowing a bit more about what I was trying to pull off with Tonga, I appreciate any more suggestions folks here might have.
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A spell warrior Skald doesn't have the AC penalty that other Skalds do, and spellcasting isn't interfered with. In fact the standard buff for this archetype is to temporarily enchant the weapons wielded by allies.
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The class was obviously not designed with only dexterity in mind or it wouldn’t progress you to heavy armor as you leveled. A dexterity based class would also give you dexterity to hit options. Magus is a hybrid-type class. It is equally meant for either play style.
There are archetypes that favor dexterity more, but then there are archetypes that make barbarians favor dexterity more too, so that’s not really meaningful to the discussion.
I’ll agree that spell warrior skald would have fit your concept a little better. Maybe even just regular skald.
No, I don't.
A spell warrior Skald doesn't have the AC penalty that other Skalds do, and spellcasting isn't interfered with. In fact the standard buff for this archetype is to temporarily enchant the weapons wielded by allies.
While interesting, we now completely lose the Spellstrike and Spell Combat by being a different class, and we also have to trade the feat to make scrolls for Counterspell which while it's very good I'm sure I'm unsure if it is better just getting to make scrolls, like I'm not sure the tradeoff is worth it. What I get is the ability to do what Arcane Pool does for Magus, but to my whole party AND with more options...but Tonga isn't even remotely an instrumental type, so it's another situation of taking away from who she has been built as a character already to try and make her work more mechanically when Magus fits it just fine, but the class is incredibly punishing at early levels and requires you to use your feats to make up for these faults instead of personalizing your character.
Also, I took a look at Bloodrager...and you don't even get spells until 4th lvl and are VERY limited with them, which also isn't what I'm looking for in addition to the whole Rage mechanic not working with the character: Tonga is highly intelligent and tries to get her team to go in with a plan, though it hasn't worked yet.
The class was obviously not designed with only dexterity in mind or it wouldn’t progress you to heavy armor as you leveled. A dexterity based class would also give you dexterity to hit options. Magus is a hybrid-type class. It is equally meant for either play style.
There are archetypes that favor dexterity more, but then there are archetypes that make barbarians favor dexterity more too, so that’s not really meaningful to the discussion.
I’ll agree that spell warrior skald would have fit your concept a little better. Maybe even just regular skald.
Gonna have to disagree again, as unless I'm missing something here, the best most players would have for Dex would be an 18 at 1st lvl and you only get five stat increases the whole game from 1st to 20th, and they only go up by one. This means that the best a single stat could be in is if a player had a 20 and you could boost it to 24 by 16th level, so the highest Dex you could have is a +7.
The highest non-magical heavy armor Dex bonus is 3, but the best heavy armor AC is 9 which has a Dex bonus of 1. Sure, that means you could have 10 AC as long as you had a 12/13 in Dex and have an AC of 20 before shields and other bonuses...but a 20 in Dex by 7th/8th lvl can net you a Chain Coat and you can now have 19 AC 6 levels before you can use heavy armor and at that point why take higher AC penalties when you can just cast AC-increasing spells if you need something pasts 19 AC without any other buffs being applied already? Hell, you can stick with just light armor and be at an 18 if you already have a high enough Dex from the get-go.
Heavy armor is something that would be good for a Str-based Magus, but you have to suffer from being so easy to hit for 13 freaking levels that if you are alive at this point you probably found a way to achieve what you need before you got there. Therefore, much as I've been saying, it's just better in PF1e to be a Dex-based Magus that can use Spell Combat as efficiently as possible and have a rapier or similar weapon that can be better used for crit fishing, and this is both true in general and especially so for a Level 1 campaign.
Also I'm not sure you can really say that a Dex-based class would give you Dex to hit built into the class because not all of them have that, pretty sure Rogue got Unchained to fix that and mythic feats were introduced to make it more possible to build Dex as both to-hit and damage. PF1e had a lot of realism put into it from its predecessor so most martial classes either have to use Str completely or push them into using Dex to hit but you have to use more feat slots to get Dex for damage. This further proves my point that Magus seems a bit all over the place in design and wants you to have high numbers in all the physical stats as well as your casting stat if you don't want to take feats to circumvent this, but then also needs to take feats anyway to make the casting more bearable.
Okay knowing more about what you wanted to actually helps a lot.
******************
First since this began with the magus let's talk about that. While yes, the class has some options that focus on getting crits, that is not actually required to make the class good. Crit is one of those play styles that are highly considered when looking at DPR, but can take a back seat when the goal is to be consistent or apply secondary effects.
So the first thing of note is that Magus has a lot of spells besides those that can be used with Spellstrike.** spoiler omitted **
Second, while level 1 can indeed be scary without max armor it is not unsurviable. Barbarians end up have the same AC as you during their rage, but only get the bonus damage during their rage; Not to mention that is the only time where a full caster and a full martial have about the same survivability.
Third, a lot of the feats that you would need to survive at low levels (Ex: Toughness) are still very good at high level. But if you are worried you can always take a dip for the first level, and then start doing your main class after that.******************
That out of the way, it sounds like you want to focus more on playing a support role than on doing max DPR. The way you want to do that is by using magic, but the system by its nature limits how much magic you have at low level; Even a wizard might need a weapon when they only have 5 spells a day).
So what class or combination thereof would help you achieve your goals?[spoiler=list of...
I'm not really sure, because I'm not sure PF1e can give me what I want. I figured that if any system could, it would be the system that has 15-some-odd years of content in it.
What I wanted was a big and smart Aphorite woman who wielded hammers and could work her magic into her hammers to make combat more interesting with stuff that might do heavy knockback or inflict conditions and what not, and be able to craft weapons that as very strong and might have some magical properties of her Magus spells or others. Making multiple attacks per turn and being able to cast spells via her hammers was a big part of it, but it really seem that PF1e magus rewards those that use S/P weapons and who either rolled well more than once or who sacrifice feats to be Dex-based in combat. Pf2e has a whole Hyrbid Study mechanic that can give you temp HP for being a 2HW magus, and that is just part of choosing the class and isn't even a personal feat choice for you to make (aka you can pick your Hybrid Study, but this is just given as a choice for picking Magus rather than having to use a feat for it), just as an example of what I mean by it catering to different playstyles within the class better.
I do see that there are some spells that can utilize Spellstrike that might be more toward what I was looking for, but it still might be a bit limited for my tastes. As for what I'm willing to sacrifice for being a big beefy woman that smacks people around with a spell-charged hammer that lets me do fun effects with it when I hit, I'm not sure because Magus already sacrifices so much as it is just to pick the class. Considering how I was wanting to be mostly Spellstrike-focused originally, if I could get good damage even though I can't really crit consistently and have interesting effects in battle, I think I could maybe sacrifice how many spells I know and MAYBE less spells per day but that is a bit of a stretch as I barely have any as is.
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Just because I love skalds I'll add one more minor endorsement: you aren't "playing an instrument" in a traditional sense, you are using your enemies and the surrounding terrain as drums, and beating out the rhythm of the forge upon them with your hammer.
Scribe scroll vs counterspell: both are suboptimal for a skald.
Actually, the core rogue came packaged with the finesse rouge talent.
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I'm not trying to be blunt or rude, ForsakenM, but this is a really difficult line of discussion precisely because so many of the points are opinions that you're absolutely entitled to... but are not necessarily true.
Absolutely nothing is keeping you from playing a Strength-based Magus, taking Power Attack, and using the Blade Tutor's Spirit spell or the Arcane Accuracy Arcana to offset (or entirely erase) the penalty to attack rolls. Your GM is even letting you two-hand your weapon, effectively bridging the gap between you and a non-Magus.
Similarly, absolutely nothing is keeping you from going after spells and metamagic feats that focus neither on critical hits or DPR, but rather on effects that compliment a given theme. By 4th level, you could--for example--be smashing foes with your hammer and a Frigid Touch spell that staggers them, with no save. By 7th level, you could be combining that with Magical Lineage and Authoritative spell, and not only stagger them but take away their remaining action... again, with no save.
Don't like the Magus selection of spells? Take the Spell Blending Arcana a bunch of times, and add Wizard spells that give you more options. Combine Calcific Touch with Empower Spell and petrify an opponent after a few swings of your hammer... with no save.
There are so many options that I or other posters could offer you, but--with respect--at this point it genuinely feels like your counterargument for all these specific suggestions you've been offered is a just that you don't like the class in general. And that's fine! You're entitled to not like X, Y, or Z about the Magus... but that doesn't make it a poorly designed class.
Actually, the core rogue came packaged with the finesse rouge talent.
Huh, I thought that was one of the things that got changed with Unchained, but then again I know very little about Pathfinder overall, let alone its history...though this begs the question of what changes Unchained makes to Rogue that makes them so much better from what I've gathered.
Just because I love skalds I'll add one more minor endorsement: you aren't "playing an instrument" in a traditional sense, you are using your enemies and the surrounding terrain as drums, and beating out the rhythm of the forge upon them with your hammer.
Scribe scroll vs counterspell: both are suboptimal for a skald.
Now I will admit, playing the song of your people via beating the snot out of your enemies is a fun viable. A more tribalistic character taking this approach sounds like a lot of fun. "Hol up, let me inspire my team real quick via the sound of my weapons against your ribs like a more percussive xylophone singing along with your screams and the sound of your ripping flesh."
I've basically convinced myself to retire the character already, and one of the first things I looked at was the Skald, so knowing I could give everyone's weapons ACTUAL abilities and bonuses while not giving negatives to AC is pretty appealing. I've already built a different character and like her concept though, so I might have to pocket this idea for later.
I'm not trying to be blunt or rude, ForsakenM, but this is a really difficult line of discussion precisely because so many of the points are opinions that you're absolutely entitled to... but are not necessarily true.
Absolutely nothing is keeping you from playing a Strength-based Magus, taking Power Attack, and using the Blade Tutor's Spirit spell or the Arcane Accuracy Arcana to offset (or entirely erase) the penalty to attack rolls. Your GM is even letting you two-hand your weapon, effectively bridging the gap between you and a non-Magus.
Similarly, absolutely nothing is keeping you from going after spells and metamagic feats that focus neither on critical hits or DPR, but rather on effects that compliment a given theme. By 4th level, you could--for example--be smashing foes with your hammer and a Frigid Touch spell that staggers them, with no save. By 7th level, you could be combining that with Magical Lineage and Authoritative spell, and not only stagger them but take away their remaining action... again, with no save.
Don't like the Magus selection of spells? Take the Spell Blending Arcana a bunch of times, and add Wizard spells that give you more options. Combine Calcific Touch with Empower Spell and petrify an opponent after a few swings of your hammer... with no save.
There are so many options that I or other posters could offer you, but--with respect--at this point it genuinely feels like your counterargument for all these specific suggestions you've been offered is a just that you don't like the class in general. And that's fine! You're entitled to not like X, Y, or Z about the Magus... but that doesn't make it a poorly designed class.
You can make all the defense you want of the class, but no one has really been able to properly defend the biggest issues I have with the class, which are A. that the CORE class itself is executed with a very narrow idea in mind and requires lots of outside pieces and sacrifices to change that and B. that the class is designed to cripple itself in the beginning and fix those issues later when it could have just not added additional negatives and spent less of its class features dedicated to fixing those issues and more time adding cooler features.
If you tell me that grabbing certain Arcana and Feats will allow me to do what I want, my response to you is "How long do I have to wait to get these things?" and "Why doesn't the class give me more bonus feats to make this manageable when I am told I have to grab a feat to make Defensive Casting work at low levels?" With the knowledge that the campaign I'm playing in switches off to a different one run by another friend roughly every month, and the pace we've been making so far is about a level a month or so, how long would it realistically take to get to the point where it all blends well together?
If I went with my plan to grab Power Attack and Arcane Accuracy, when do I get to take metamagic feats? I already took Combat Casting, but my DM is giving us all an extra feat to use that I could put towards something, so I'm more than happy to work with what I have to try and give this another chance. After looking up Frigid Touch (as well as a feat tied to it that can give fatigued on hit, exhausted on crit) I'm willing to believe there are likely more spells in the magus list that fit what I'm looking for if I review them better. Just please keep in mind that I will be at level 3 for likely an entire month, then level 4 for a month, and possibly each of these levels could be 2 months of IRL time as we don't always meet weekly...so if I have to suffer not feeling like a class that functions as well as picking others for months, I'm probably going to enjoy the class even less.
Btw, one of the prestige classes functions very much like a magus does, giving them Spellstrike and an arcane pool, with one of the options from it is to give a weapon spell-storing...so as it turns out, my idea about that was in the right lane of thought, but you have to meet a bunch of character requirements first and use a 3rd party prestige. Also lets you use arcane pool as a free action to augment spells...oh, and all 'Touch' range spells work with Spellstrike, Melee or Ranged be damned. I wish some of this was factored into the magus class itself as class features, even if changes needed to be made to make these things less strong, just the idea of spell storing as a magus class feature sounds awesome and was kind what I thought Tonga would grow into.
Also I don't think most of the folks here have been rude, I'm just mostly being disagreed with, and I kind of expected that: I came into a forum of folks with a VASTLY higher knowledge of a system I've barely dabbled with. Regardless of how I think the design philosophy of other TTRPG systems have done things better than PF1e over time, my friend is running PF1e, so I either have to make the character work here or move on to the Witch I've almost finished. So even if I disagree with a number of you on the magus as a core class fundamentally, I still have to learn and take your advice if I want to get closer to what I'm looking for.
You can make all the defense you want of the class, but no one has really been able to properly defend the biggest issues I have with the class, …
Your issues are less actual issues and more a matter of personal taste, though. Hyperbole aside, the Magus is clearly not built on a very narrow idea; multiple posters have given you multiple concepts and ideas. The class clearly isn’t crippled; more than one poster has obviously shared experiences ranging from mid-level to end-stage play.
If you tell me that grabbing certain Arcana and Feats will allow me to do what I want, my response to you is "How long do I have to wait to get these things?" …
As early as level 3.
… and "Why doesn't the class give me more bonus feats to make this manageable when I am told I have to grab a feat to make Defensive Casting work at low levels?"
Because you’re assuming an inevitability (“I MUST cast defensively within reach of opponents”) instead of asking a tactical question (“how do I avoid attacks of opportunity when casting spells”)—which, with respect, is only a bit less over the top than a player fretting about their archer build character provoking AOOs while in melee range, or how their melee build character will deal with reach weapons without extra feats to make getting Dodge and Mobility easier.
With the knowledge that the campaign I'm playing in switches off to a different one run by another friend roughly every month, and the pace we've been making so far is about a level a month or so, how long would it realistically take to get to the point where it all blends well together?
Levels 5-7? Not really different from other classes. By that point, a Druid has Wild Shape, a Fighter has Weapon Training and completed a feat tree, a Ranger has their bond and a couple style feats and favored enemies, Paladins and Swashbucklers have the first iteration of all their recurring features, and so on. Magi have 1-2 Arcana, a bonus metamagic or combat feat, and a range of spells that allow them to, e.g., auto-trip, heal while damaging others, pounce, or stagger opponents.
If I went with my plan to grab Power Attack and Arcane Accuracy, when do I get to take metamagic feats? I already took Combat Casting, but my DM is giving us all an extra feat to use that I could put towards something, so I'm more than happy to work with what I have to try and give this another chance.
It depends on what spells you want to apply them to. The most basic concepts—Intensified Shocking Grasp or Rime Frostbite—can theoretically be taken at level 1 by a Human Magus with Magical Lineage. The same character would have to wait until level 7 for Authoritative Frigid Touch.
Btw, one of the prestige classes functions very much like a magus does, giving them Spellstrike and an arcane pool, with one of the options from it is to give a weapon spell-storing...so as it turns out, my idea about that was in the right lane of thought, but you have to meet a bunch of character requirements first and use a 3rd party prestige. Also lets you use arcane pool as a free action to augment spells...oh, and all 'Touch' range spells work with Spellstrike, Melee or Ranged be damned. I wish some of this was factored into the magus class itself as class features, even if changes needed to be made to make these things less strong, just the idea of spell storing as a magus class feature sounds awesome and was kind what I thought Tonga would grow into.
Just because something is desirable doesn’t been it’s balanced, though.
I look forward to reading your thoughts after a second review of the Magus spell list. I hope you find the options that will make your character build work. I suspect you will.
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It’s actually not unusual at all for a Pathfinder class to not feel like it’s fully online until level 4 or 5. The early levels are about discovering your abilities. You aren’t meant to be a one man army. All casters have a spell shortage until at best level 7 or 8. There just aren’t enough for an average adventuring day, so all casters have to rely on weapons or cantrips some of the time.
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One of your problems is that you want a front-loaded class, one where you get most of the tricks and powers of a class in the first few levels, but one of the Pathfinder development philosophies was to reward sticking to a class and getting the full benefits by taking the full 20 levels in it.
It was a reaction to 3.x where you often had the most important benefits of a class at level 1 or 2 and people made multiclassed characters, switching from class to class and from prestige class to prestige class to make the most powerful character possible.
I've basically convinced myself to retire the character already, and one of the first things I looked at was the Skald, so knowing I could give everyone's weapons ACTUAL abilities and bonuses while not giving negatives to AC is pretty appealing.
so, I'm currently playing a 10th level skald, and this is what every member of my party gets when I use my inspired song
Inspired Rage Benefits:
+4 STR
+4 CON
+3 WILL
-1 AC
Make all melee attacks have Shocking (+1d6 DMG) for 1 round, 3 times per rage
Energy Resistance 10 (Electricity)
Damage Reduction (1/-)
All Magical Healing grants additional +1 HP/CASTER LEVEL
Once per Rage, can add ½ LEVEL to any STR check or STR based Skill Check
Fast Healing 4
And, I can maintain the song as a free action if I cast a spell that round, plus it lasts for 2 rounds AFTER I quit "singing"
since the character can cast healing spells, I come close to out performing the cleric in the party when it comes to combat healing.
No, he sucks at combat, but that's not how I built him, he's built around spellcasting, and has tons of useful tricks.
The party wizard specializes in electricity spells, and has an ability to change all energy attacks to the element of his choice (electricity)within 30', so he can stand in the middle of the party and cast electrical fireballs with minimal risk to the party, or change a dragons breath from whatever element it is, into electricity, which the party has resist 10 to.
So yeah, a Skald can be tons of fun.
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I feel it is important to point out that when the Magus was written and published, Pathfinder had *NO* dex to damage options, other than one weapon-specific, region-specific feat, from a book that was technically published before the Core Rulebook (it was PFRPG though).
Of course, in PFS, just about every Magus just happened to wield a scimitar, be from Qadira, and have an interest in waltzing. Outside of that, str-based magi were much more common, and going dex-based was not such an unavoidable lure.
Regardless, it was not designed as exclusively dex-based - in fact, Seltyiel the iconic magus is strength based.
So I just want to thank everyone here for the discussion as well as for providing alternative options for me to run for Tonga. I will be retiring her just because it's not quite working out for me in PF1e and even after a review of spells I'm just trying to do something that screams inefficient and would require months of time to get to where it feels a bit better (we level up once per month/every other normally, and we are moving to another friend's campaign that will be about the same amount of time with no progression in the other), and additionally, changes were made before I made this post and those changes will be staying.
I want to thank you for all your suggestions and the effort put into them, and I'm planning on having a Skald on the side in case something happens, probably a Spell Warrior Skald Piper.
I've come from this conversation having learned some things but ultimately keeping the same opinion: the Magus has more spell variety than I originally gave it credit for and a number of the archtypes for Magus do change things up enough to make for some somewhat interesting builds, but trying to build what I wanted would have been waiting for at least two more levels to feel it really come alive and it would still be an inefficient way of playing the Magus that I would feel said inefficiency for the entire campaign.
I think the reason a lot of my disagreement exists is that, as someone who had very minimal experience with PF1e prior to now (only a couple of sessions, none of them with the same group or character) and now coming back to it after playing a system like Blood of Heroes that provides complete creative control on character build (there are no classes) and only punishes you for trying to do things you didn't build for/purposely taking Drawbacks and 5e where everyone seems stronger at all levels and aren't punished at early levels but have fewer options in combat and builds, coming back to a system that has a bit more realism and didn't really evolve with the times in a number of ways in its core system means having a fundamental disagreement with the system itself. Also trying to find the customization is hard, and the classes themselves don't really feel like they give you a whole lot of uniqueness in your class features in the sense that other classes tend to share a number of features as well as so many archetypes just making you more like another class to share even more features that it feels like each base class just isn't very unique even if they are dedicated to a core concept.
However, while I disagree with a number of things about how PF1e works and its design philosophy, I do think that how much customization for a non-opened-ended system is massive, being able to build around mechanics in battle outside just attacking and casting is excellent, having more feats that feel designed to make actual builds and concepts instead of being vague or basic bonuses that don't really lead to much are great.
I don't plan on posting in this thread after this, but I DO plan on asking for advice from you guys here soon with a new thread in regards to trying to balance out my Witch I'm making. I'm big on RP and themes, but I also want a certain level of optimization with my spells that I feel you guys would be incredibly helpful with. I will be posting it sometime today.
Well apparently I missed the party and this thread has more or less resolved itself.
I skipped most of the comments, but I assume I'm agreeing with the majority when I say thst the Magus is a flexible and powerful class, even it does fit within a specific niche in some ways .
Having read back through the opening post, may I recommend you give the OCCULTIST class, as I think it fits what you seemed to be looking for a bit better than the Magus.
Reading this thread just reminds me how much I dislike PF's Magus class. Its design is over-focused on the Spellblade concept (which I already hated) from previous D&D editions, and all I seemed to see were "bad touch" magi using Shocking Grasp. As the GM, it got boring/irritating very quickly.
I do offer my players the chance to play-test my "Old School" Magus archetype (found here). It moves away from the Spellblade concept and borrows some elements from the Warpriest - namely the self-buffing magic.
About the only part of the Magus that really disappointed me was the limited selection of touch spells, specifically. The Close Range Arcana mitigates that, but there are a number of Wizard touch spells that would have been great for the Magus that seem to have been deliberately omitted. It would have been nice if the Spell Blending Arcana existed to provide utility and versatility, rather than spells that would have made more since being designed for the Magus's spell list to begin with.
Wow! That is awesome. I played a skald several years ago, and I swear we got to level 11 or 12. I don't remember my rage song doing half of those things. Is that all standard to inspired rage, or is some of it coming from spells, archetype, or feat choices?
Inspired Rage Benefits:
+4 STR (Standard Inspired Rage ability)+4 CON (Standard Inspired Rage ability)
+3 WILL (Standard Inspired Rage ability)
-1 AC )Standard Inspired Rage ability)
Make all melee attacks have Shocking (+1d6 DMG) for 1 round, 3 times per rage (Elemental Blood, Lesser Rage power)
Energy Resistance 10 (Electricity) (Elemental Blood Rage Power)
Damage Reduction (1/-) (Standard Inspired Rage Ability)
All Magical Healing grants additional +1 HP/CASTER LEVEL (Celestial Totem, Lesser Rage Power)
Once per Rage, can add ½ LEVEL to any STR check or STR based Skill Check (Standard Inspired Rage ability)
Fast Healing 4 (Greater Skald Vigor Feat)
And, I can maintain the song as a free action if I cast a spell that round (Harmonic Spell Feat), plus it lasts for 2 rounds AFTER I quit "singing" (Lingering Performance Feat)
I also left off that my enemies within 30' are shaken (-2 to hit, etc) which makes up for the -1AC to my party members.
with a Skald, it's important to pick the right rage powers - since you share them with your party
I tend to pick buff spells when I can, plus healing spells, and just go about enhancing the party.
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The problem with Magus being pigeonholed into one main build is due to all of their various restrictions placed on their class. Spell Combat is melee only, and they only have Light armor proficiency. So of course people are going to try and be DEX based in order to survive. They can only attack one-handed, so Dervish Dance is the best (now ONLY) method of getting DEX-to-damage consistently. It also uses a high crit-rate weapon in the Scimitar, which optimizes Spellstrike. If Spellstrike copied both the critical threat range AND the critical damage multiplier, then other weapons could be used instead. Dervish Dance simply optimizes every restriction the Magus is placed under.
Maybe it's just me, but after playing a bit of the Magus and really looking into it and all it's options
- Despite being a casting class, the casting stat (Int) isn't as important to have super high as it is to have a high Dex as you can't get medium armor until 7th lvl and heavy until 13th and you will be on the front lines. I've heard you just aren't rewarded as much as other half-casters or full casters for having a high casting stat, which doesn't make sense as you should be equally rewarded.
See, this is why I think Bladebound Kensai Magus is awesome. It practically forces your to invest in your main casting stat, but rewards you handsomely for doing so. It gives you AC, it gives you initiative, it helps you confirm critical hits with the greatest of ease. And all of that is on top of the inherent benefits of INT the Magus already gets, meaning more bonus spells (to help counteract diminished spellcasting), more arcane pool points (which helps with Bladebound's main drawback), higher spell save DCs, more skills, etc.
All the while, the free scaling weapon from Bladebound that can be further enhanced with your arcane pool basically ensures that you never fall too far behind your other martial classes in the party. On top of giving you an answer to pretty much every elemental vulnerability, which your increased knowledge checks should be well aware of (to say nothing of doing unresisted force damage in a clutch).
Despite the tremendous loss of Spell Recall, I think Bladebound Kensai really nails the design element of a Magic-using warrior, IMHO.
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Reading this thread just reminds me how much I dislike PF's Magus class. Its design is over-focused on the Spellblade concept (which I already hated) from previous D&D editions, and all I seemed to see were "bad touch" magi using Shocking Grasp. As the GM, it got boring/irritating very quickly.
I had a lot of fun with a Bladebound Magus, and never spammed Shocking grasp.
Zipping in the face of an opponent with Force hook charge to deliver all my attacks (sadly, my GM said no to Bladed dash), or delivering all the attacks, stabbing back 5' ant them Dimension dooring away.Buffing up for melee with Shield, Mirror image.
My preferred bad touch attack was Frosbite, but there are so many options. Sticking to Shocking grasp is way too limiting.
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Dervish dance isn't the only method if DEX-to-damage, you can also use an AGILE weapon. I helped a player at my table build a Magus with a MONOWHIP and he's having a blast. Its waay better than a Scimitar. Of course its not something that would fit in every campaign, but we're playing Iron Gods so its fine.
Regarding the Shocking Grasp Magus, I made one that was pretty standard, but I also took PREFERRED SPELL. Yes it still just does Shocking Grasp for damage when it needs to, but this allowed me to load up on buffs, debuffs and utility spells and completely ignore the spellstrike side of the Magus when doing my spell prep. Between this and Spell Recall you're basically a Melee Arcanist. You Can spam Shocking Grasp, or you can make the most of your spell list and do other things.
Aside from that, yes you'e stuck with 1-handed melee weapons, but if you really want to you could go ranged with an archetype, or you could grab a reach weapon and play the 2-handed archetype with a Frostbite build. There are options for thise who want them. And to be honest, how many Magi are people actually making that they get sick of them? Sure its a cliche on the boards, but if you haven't played it yourself its a fun thing to try. Honestly I think its fine.
Regarding the thread title: I do think it could have been designed with more versatile weapons in mind. The Eldritch Archer is great, but the 2-handed archetype isn't really as good. I also agree that there should have been a more interesting selection of touch spells to play with, that seems like a missed opportunity. Other than that though I can't really agree with a lot of this. There are other classes that self buff, there are other classes that switch between spells and martial prowess, but the Magus is fairly unique in its ability to do everything all at once, and I think it works great. Also you can totally play a STR-Magus, I don't know why people think otherwise. Sorry =P
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The only thing I dislike about the base Magus is Greater Spell Access. It is a great ability, but getting it at level 19 makes it practically meaningless.
When you get it you already have a "solution" for the problems that getting those wizard spells will resolve.
I would have made it a staggered feature, getting 2 wizard spells 1 level below your maximum spell level when you learn to cast the next level of spells and the 6th level spells at level 19.
To make it clearer, with this change, the magus would learn: 2 wizard cantrips at level 1, 2 1st-level spells at level 4, 2 2nd-level spells at level 7, and so on.
It is a big increase in versatility, but the number of spell slots still limits the Magus's power.
I could say a whole bunch of things about how versatile a combatant the Magus is, but I won't, because somebody has done a far better job than I could do -- in fact, this is one of the all-time top guides of Pathfinder 1st Edition. And here's the discussion thread to go with it.
Some of the archetype-specific Magus guides on Zenith Games Comprehensive Pathfinder Guides Guide are also worth reading. (However, the Myrmidarch guide is out of date -- not because the author did anything wrong, but because that archetype got a LOT better after the Weapon Master's Guide came out, which was after this guide was last updated.)
I will say, though, that the Magus could have used a clarity rewrite, som that somebody wouldn't have to write a whole mini-guide (linked from the Zenith Games page) just to clear up confusion about how Spell Combat and Spellstrike work.
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I will say, though, that the Magus could have used a clarity rewrite, som that somebody wouldn't have to write a whole mini-guide (linked from the Zenith Games page) just to clear up confusion about how Spell Combat and Spellstrike work.
The Magus class "suffers" because it was made in an awkward phase of Pathfinder 1 development.
It came out after the Advanced Player Guide, with the Summoner and the Inquisitor, two classes that received a lot of "gifts" (in the form of powerful abilities, skill points, and spell selection) but before the Unchained rewrite of the Summoner and before the Advance Class Guide, so at a time when Paizo was trying to keep the new classes power in line with the classes of the CRB.I think there was some backlash because of those classes, with the developers trying to curb the power of the new class.
If you compare an Inquisitor and a Magus, the Inquisitor receives way more. If you compare it to the APG Summoner is even worse. Similarly, the ACG classes are generally more powerful.
An Unchained Magus, with clarifications about some abilities and some rewrites of others, could have been a good addition (but all the classes in the CRB could have benefitted from that, too).
Considering the above, if you compare it to the classes in the ACG it is n't that good, if you compare it to the classes in the CRB it is good.
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I will say, though, that the Magus could have used a clarity rewrite, som that somebody wouldn't have to write a whole mini-guide (linked from the Zenith Games page) just to clear up confusion about how Spell Combat and Spellstrike work.
My go-to guide for this is GRICK'S GUIDE TO TOUCH SPELLS, SPELLSTRIKE AND SPELL COMBAT.
I think the big problem really is just that the way Touch spells work is weird. Once you get your head around that the rest of it kinda flows, but most people never learn that janky but of rules. I don't mind how touch spells work either - It would have been easier to just say "Touch spells don't provoke AoOs and you get a touch attack as part of the standard action to cast the spell". To be honest that probably would have been better overall ... BUT I like that there are things you can do with touch spells the way they are, like holding the charge between rounds with a Frostbite spell or similar.
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Maybe we should admit there is a difference between poor design and could-have-been-better design. But I think we would all have different to slightly different ideas of what should have been done differently. My changes would almost certainly be hated by someone else, but it's how I see the class.
*Give medium armor at level 1. Make heavy armor an arcana.
*Give benefit to using alternative crit weapons, instead of being all about highest crit chance.
*Add new touch spells for every spell level, so stacking metamagic on shocking grasp doesn't feel so obvious.
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I mean the issue around shocking grasp is people love causing the most damage. If you look through spells that can be delivered by spellstrike you find the shocking grasp is one of the most (if not most) efficient spells in terms of damage per spell level. And by adding metamagic it remains so, over other options you can gain as you level up.
If it wasn't shocking grasp, it just would have been some other spell.
There was always going to be one top damage dealing touch spell and people were going to use it.
What was needed was (more) spells that did less damage than shocking grasp but had additional affects that could make them better, at least in some situations, than pure damage.
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Magus...
Power Attack...
Yeah im sorry but you really just dont know how to run a magus. Also Frostbite magus is so much more versatile, you should be using both of them interchangably, one for high burst damage and one for consistent DPS.
Frankly i have like 3 magus builds and NONE of them are dex based, they are usually built to have more of a balanced stat spread.
Yes the magus requires a bit of game knowledge to use to its fullest potential, but if used right, the magus is capable of having the highest DPR of any class in the game with only a pouncing barbarian rivaling it.
I mean a high level Inquisitor with damage and attack bonus judgments running, bane, and divine power all active can do insane things as well in terms of damage, but yes, in general magus can deal a lot of damage too.
I will say, though, that the Magus could have used a clarity rewrite, som that somebody wouldn't have to write a whole mini-guide (linked from the Zenith Games page) just to clear up confusion about how Spell Combat and Spellstrike work.My go-to guide for this is GRICK'S GUIDE TO TOUCH SPELLS, SPELLSTRIKE AND SPELL COMBAT.
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That's exactly the one I have in mind.
I mean the issue around shocking grasp is people love causing the most damage. If you look through spells that can be delivered by spellstrike you find the shocking grasp is one of the most (if not most) efficient spells in terms of damage per spell level. And by adding metamagic it remains so, over other options you can gain as you level up.
If it wasn't shocking grasp, it just would have been some other spell.
There was always going to be one top damage dealing touch spell and people were going to use it.
What was needed was (more) spells that did less damage than shocking grasp but had additional affects that could make them better, at least in some situations, than pure damage.
. . . And more multitouch spells that work that way (like Chill Touch and Frostbite).
But at any rate, 1st Edition Magus is definitely not bad, and I would say even a smidge overpowered. In particular, Knowledge Pool lets you eventually fill out your spellbook with your whole list for only the cost of spellbook writing materials. So nerf that. In exchange:
Maybe we should admit there is a difference between poor design and could-have-been-better design. But I think we would all have different to slightly different ideas of what should have been done differently. My changes would almost certainly be hated by someone else, but it's how I see the class.
*Give medium armor at level 1. Make heavy armor an arcana.
*Give benefit to using alternative crit weapons, instead of being all about highest crit chance.
*Add new touch spells for every spell level, so stacking metamagic on shocking grasp doesn't feel so obvious.
This.
Although maybe unrestricted Medium Armor at level 1 would be overpowered (as this comes online 6 levels before Knowledge Pool), but as an alternative, I would say make Magi start out proficient with all armor (unless traded out by an archetype), but have a penalty (related to Arcane Spell Failure, but maybe not exactly the same) for attempting to cast in armor that is too heavy, and the proposed Armored Casting Magus Arcana lets you progressively remove that penalty (but unlike the Arcane Armor Training/Arcane Armor Mastery feats, which are kind of bad as-is, not eating your Swift Action each round; however, let it count as Arcane Armor Training and eventually Arcane Armor Mastery for the purpose of feat and prestige class prerequisites).
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In particular, Knowledge Pool lets you eventually fill out your spellbook with your whole list for only the cost of spellbook writing materials. So nerf that.
My GM decided that the spell I prepared using Knowledge Pool could not be written down, as I had skipped a passage needed to add a spell to my spellbook:
Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
I think it is a reasonable ruling.
In particular, Knowledge Pool lets you eventually fill out your spellbook with your whole list for only the cost of spellbook writing materials.
I don’t think Knowledge Pool is overpowered… because I’m pretty sure it doesn’t do what you say it does.
For each point he expends, he can treat any one spell from the magus spell list as if it were in his spellbook and can prepare that spell as normal that day. If he does not cast spells prepared in this way before the next time he prepares spells, he loses those spells. He can also cast spells added in this way using his spell recall ability, but only until he prepares spells again.
Emphasis mine. The spells gained through Knowledge Pool don’t actually go into the Magus’s spellbook. They are available on a temporary basis at a cost of 1 Arcane Pool point per spell. At the end of the day, they go away.
At 7th level, a Magus will reasonably have 8-10 Arcane Pool points (3 from levels, 4-5 from INT, 2 from Extra Arcane Pool). Every spell gained this way means one less opportunity to use Arcana or to recall a needed spell.
Maybe we should admit there is a difference between poor design and could-have-been-better design. But I think we would all have different to slightly different ideas of what should have been done differently. My changes would almost certainly be hated by someone else, but it's how I see the class.
*Give medium armor at level 1. Make heavy armor an arcana.
*Give benefit to using alternative crit weapons, instead of being all about highest crit chance.
*Add new touch spells for every spell level, so stacking metamagic on shocking grasp doesn't feel so obvious.
I agree with all of this. I don't think its poirly designed, but there is room for improvement.
This kind-of represents all the points I disagree with about this.
My Bloodrager does more damage than the Magus in the party. Even with a spell-crit he's really just catching up to my damage on a crit .
You say they're repetetive, so use different spells. The only thing making them repetetive is the way people choose to play them. Even if we decide to only use Shocking Grasp and damage spells that's still putting them on-par with martial classes in this sphere. I don't wanna say the Magus isn't a high tier damage dealer, but with our Bloodrager/Gunslinger/Magus/Wizard party the Magus certainly isn't overshadowing anyone .
I've made a DEX-based Magus without DEX-to-damage who focuses on debuffing enemies and protecting my allies, and it was super fun. Throw in True Strike and you can be a master of Combat Maneuvers. Throw in some mobility spells and you can have yourself a fun game bouncing around the battlefield. People play the Magus a certain way because they hyper-focus on one aspect of the game, but you can absolutely play this class without ever using Shocking Grasp. And while it has a lot of tricks, a magi can't really do anything that a Fighter and Wizard couldn't do.
Is it good? Sure, but even here on ghr forums with all the theory-crafting to make Schrodinger's Magus it still usually ends up as a tier 3 class .
A couple of things:
1. Nothing personal, but I tend to be wary of anecdotal, damage-centric examples. There’s just so many factors at play, most of which aren’t directly referenced, and very often when everything’s laid out we’re talking about very specific situations. I get that in your case it was merely a preamble to the actual point (versatility, different themes and concepts), which I wholeheartedly agree with.
2. I don’t know that I agree with the idea that “a magi can't really do anything that a Fighter and Wizard couldn't do.” I think it’s fair to say there are things a Fighter can do that Magi can’t do (though the Myrmidarch narrows that gap considerably), and it’s more than fair to say that about a Wizard. A Magus can, however, do things that both those other classes cannot do without considerable investment and sacrifices.
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I’m pretty sure Claxon was being satirical. The ooc tag can be hard to interpret.
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I’m pretty sure Claxon was being satirical. The ooc tag can be hard to interpret.
That's alright. If it was satirical then it was a perfect setup for my comment. If it wasn't then I still think Claxon's pretty cool, even if we disagree.
A couple of things:
1. Nothing personal, but I tend to be wary of anecdotal, damage-centric examples.
2. I don’t know that I agree with the idea that “a magi can't really do anything that a Fighter and Wizard couldn't do.”
Yeah both of those are fair.
For the damage example I was actually just using average damage numbers, and since I helped him build his character I also know our attack modifiers are very similar. But as you said that point wasn't really meant to be taken on its own, it was more speaking to the class as a whole. The Magus is a good damage-dealing class, but its not alone in that and isn't really the worst offender .
And or course you're right, there are things a Magus can do that a Wizard and Fighter couldn't replicate, but that goes both ways. I think the Magus does a pretty good job emulating the Wizard/Fighter. There are some unique tricks that can be done with both the spells and martial ability on the one character, but both those classes have tricks the Magus can't replicate as well.
Is it a good class? Yes.
Is it OP? Compared to what? By any metrics that put the Magus in the OP category you'd have to put a few other classes there as well. That could absolutely be a sign of an unbalanced system, but its not really a symptom of a single OP class.
I can see some room for improvement with this class , but I could say that about most classes. I can also see how people could get stuck thinking only certain builds work, but while those builds are very common they are Not the only viable way to play this class. If the Magus feels repetitive to play its only because you've chosen to make it so, it should be one of the least repetetive classes in the game.
Anyway I feel like I've probably used more than my allotted time, so I'll go back to the bench. =P
The class only cares about crit range on a weapon and not the multiplier. Meaning every magus wants an 18-20 weapon.
needing the free hand means you need a 1 handed weapon
Getting heavier armor later in your career means you have to build to do without it which means.. you do without it.
Building without it means a dex build. There is only one handed 18-20 weapon that can be used with dex to damage.. the scimitar. You can only do this as a worshiper of saranrae with dervish dance.
So you have a non religious arcane class that plinkos into worshiping one specific deity And every magus winds up looking the same.
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Maybe Dervish Dance was the bigger flawed design. Why gate Dex-to-damage behind something so specific? Just call it Greater Weapon Finesse and allow it to apply to any light or one-handed slashing or piercing weapon when your other hand is empty. At least we'd get maguses with a variety of weapons and deities.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The class only cares about crit range on a weapon and not the multiplier. Meaning every magus wants an 18-20 weapon.
One of several missed opportunities was regional magus archetypes that got away from 'Scimitar R Us'
Rondelro Magus, fighting with Falcata and Buckler, give me that X3 crit and only able to spell combat with the Falcata. Rewards strength based
Aldori Magus, Gives different Aldori style feats in exchange for only spellstriking with the dueling sword. Dex based still, but could have a much different style.
Mwangi Magus, I know we got a few, but I'd love to have seen one that rewards light or no armor and the short spear. (I enjoyed Shaka Zulu as a kid, and thought the Iklwa was neat)
Getting heavier armor later in your career means you have to build to do without it which means.. you do without it.
Building without it means a dex build. There is only one handed 18-20 weapon that can be used with dex to damage.. the scimitar. You can only do this as a worshiper of saranrae with dervish dance.
So you have a non religious arcane class that plinkos into worshiping one specific deity And every magus winds up looking the same.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a sect of religiously-oriented Magi out there, and perhaps Paizo missed a trick by not publishing something centered on the destination of the steps you covered.
That said, is an additional +1-3 bonus to AC worth an investment two feats? Do the spells available to a Magus--which he can incorporate into his attack almost seamlessly--not provide better means of defense (or even a denial of attacks)? If you go that route, those two feats open doors for Magi to explore other concepts and possibilities.
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I’m pretty sure Claxon was being satirical. The ooc tag can be hard to interpret.
Melkiador is correct!
I’m pretty sure Claxon was being satirical. The ooc tag can be hard to interpret.That's alright. If it was satirical then it was a perfect setup for my comment. If it wasn't then I still think Claxon's pretty cool, even if we disagree.
Hey thanks! I also think you're pretty cool Mr. Charisma. Same for a lot of frequent posters on the board. We may not always agree on something, but most of us can disagree in an agreeable manner.
could use a rapier with the agile enchantment for dex to damage
But when could you reasonably access that? At minimum that's a +2 weapon. 8000g. With expected wealth by level, that's level 8. If crafting is available, then you could maybe make one at level 5, though you'd likely have to wait for level 6. That's just not reliable enough for a lot of people.