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At the risk of getting yelled at or getting this post removed its very much:
"The game is perfectly balanced the devs wouldn't make a mistake."
"But what about all these mistakes they made and all these things that don't follow that 'balance'."
"Uh... um... clearly thats the way the devs meant to balance it."
(Also the occasional you are just a power gamer or do you even know the system)
The PF2e community has its flaws for sure. I mean, I've been jazzed about the system since start of the core book playtest but hasn't stopped me from being critical of the parts that I think are bad. But when you start to criticize PF2e you have to be ready to pull out your logical fallacies bingo card:
- Straw Man (happens frequently, happened in this thread a ton)
- Bandwagon (the majority of players like it this way)
- Appeal to Authority (Paizo game designers are infallible)
- Anecdotal Evidence (Seems like everyone's personal experience is > than math/analysis/examples)
- Ad Hominem (You're a power gamer)
- Tu Quoque (this thread has tons of deflections, followed by assertions, followed by not addressing the evidence or claim. For me, this is the one internet discussions are most guilty of because a snappy TLDR/one liner 'wins' for enough people that it feels like the go to default response type for every internet thread)
- Special Pleading (But its fine [or not] in this one case because PF2e is the best TTRPG system I've played ever...)
- Gate Guarding (well you have to have played this for x number of years before you can comment on the system)IMO its been like that for years since PF2e came out. I think it started as a reactionary impulse to try and prevent/minimize PF1e edition warring. But its left the community in a place where it becomes extremely difficult to provide critique because people can become combative rather quickly.
To be fair, that's not a PF2 thing. That's an internet thing. Humans get very defensive of their paradigms, hobbies and communities. Still there is enough humor, insight and helpfulness on these forums that I keep coming back.
Hmm
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Yes they have a tendancy to quietly release new items that fix things without saying why. I find it odd, but at least it does slowly happen.
We have harder and more non metallic shields and armour. Druids now have an item to speak in wild shape. Clerics can pick up an item to cast Electric Arc....
The real problem with shields in PF2E is that in reality shields are not armor, they're a weapon.
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The real problem with shields in PF2E is that in reality shields are not armor, they're a weapon.
They aren't even weapons. Thay only act like them. You need to attach an actual weapon to them.
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The real problem with shields in PF2E is that in reality shields are not armor, they're a weapon.
That's also true.
It could even be argued that shields shouldn't even add to AC beyond a certain point as the class knight in full harness didn't use them as they weren't particularly useful. In a world such as Golarion it might make more sense to carry them but have them aid reflex saves instead of AC.
The real problem with shields in PF2E is that in reality shields are not armor, they're a weapon.That's aren't even weapons. Thay only act like them. You need to attach an actual weapon to them.
You're talking about the game. In reality people used shields to hit people or disarm them all the time.
But it's really hard to model a swordfight accurately and still be fun. Though I'd love something like that go-to Viking strategy where you use the beard on the axe to capture a weapon and the shield as the fulcrum to disarm them.
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The real problem with shields in PF2E is that in reality shields are not armor, they're a weapon.That's aren't even weapons. Thay only act like them. You need to attach an actual weapon to them.
IRL shields are nasty. A heater or kite shield is easily enough to hurt you badly and a buckler is basically brass knuckles that can also parry effectively.
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You're talking about the game. In reality people used shields to hit people or disarm them all the time.
IRL shields are nasty. A heater or kite shield is easily enough to hurt you badly and a buckler is basically brass knuckles that can also parry effectively.
I was of course talking about the game: you can't even attach runes to a shield as it's not a weapon. There is a LOT of things IRL that do not translate into the game and I was just pointing out it's not mimicking a weapon any better than a piece of armor in his case as far as IRL is concerned.
Yes they have a tendancy to quietly release new items that fix things without saying why. I find it odd, but at least it does slowly happen.
We have harder and more non metallic shields and armour. Druids now have an item to speak in wild shape. Clerics can pick up an item to cast Electric Arc....
Can you cast spells as a speaking druid? What item is this?
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3-Body Problem here's the deal:
Raising a Shield is not a big issue. It fits neatly with all the other options in the game in terms of utility and power level.
Using it in the game provides an interesting gameplay dynamic. The core principle of PF2e is create a mechanically balanced experience in the gameplay, not to be a simulationist experience. It was designed like that as a dynamic gameplay tool first and foremost that compromised some semblance of verisimilitude. You simply can't have it all, I'm afraid.
The action elegantly accomplishes what it sets out to do in Pathfinder2e and it's been a well-regarded mechanic since its introduction in the playtest. It might be hard to wrap your head around it if you only use other systems (where shields are just extra +X to armor) as your baseline, but in PF2e it is a choice that defines your combat playstyle and it feels mechanically meaningful.
Can you cast spells as a speaking druid? What item is this?Yes they have a tendancy to quietly release new items that fix things without saying why. I find it odd, but at least it does slowly happen.
We have harder and more non metallic shields and armour. Druids now have an item to speak in wild shape. Clerics can pick up an item to cast Electric Arc....
No
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3-Body Problem here's the deal:
Raising a Shield is not a big issue. It fits neatly with all the other options in the game in terms of utility and power level.
Using it in the game provides an interesting gameplay dynamic. The core principle of PF2e is create a mechanically balanced experience in the gameplay, not to be a simulationist experience. It was designed like that as a dynamic gameplay tool first and foremost that compromised some semblance of verisimilitude. You simply can't have it all, I'm afraid.
The action elegantly accomplishes what it sets out to do in Pathfinder2e and it's been a well-regarded mechanic since its introduction in the playtest. It might be hard to wrap your head around it if you only use other systems (where shields are just extra +X to armor) as your baseline, but in PF2e it is a choice that defines your combat playstyle and it feels mechanically meaningful.
I'm not arguing for shields to be passive because that's what other game systems do. I actually think the way we do armor and shields in d20 games is boring and that more should be done with the idea of using armor and shields as damage reduction for when more active defensive measures have failed. Instead, I dislike it because it creates this image of the idiot fighter who keeps dropping his shield like a clumsy amateur boxer drops his gloves. There are other ways to create interesting trade-offs between actions and between two-handers, sword and board, and weapon and freehand styles while maintaining verisimilitude and creating interesting gameplay loops.
For example, you could do something like:
Disruptive Guard:
1 Reaction
When an enemy in melee range of you misses you with a melee attack you may spend your reaction to have them count as flat-footed against an attack you make against them until the end of that enemy's next turn. If they missed critically they are flat-footed until the end of their next turn instead.
Aggressive Defense:
1 Action
You actively and aggressively use your shield to intercept incoming melee attacks. Until the start of your next turn when an enemy misses you with a melee attack you may make a shield bash attack against that enemy. If they miss critically these attacks treat that target as flat-footed.
These may or may not be balanced as they're top-of-mind ideas, but they show that you can do interesting things and give players plenty of agency in combat without making their characters poor at using shields.
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Again, this is not what is happening
Except that it is what's happening. Every 6-seconds the fighter drops his shield like an idiot at his first SCA event and if you don't spend an action or have a reaction your shield is wasting space on your character sheet and bulk on your character.
These are things that require some amount of concentration every round to use, and that is abstracted as an action.
So raising a shield takes an action, but maintaining a strict martial arts stance - crane stance for example - doesn't. Explain that logic to me.
I challenge you to sprint 75 feet in a serpentine pattern and attack with your sword (stride+ sudden charge, 3 actions) and see how well your shield is positioned at the end of it.
How about I stand still for 6-seconds and see if my shield automatically drops the way it does for a PF2 fighter in the same scenario?
Also, lets look at the classic phalanx position. They advance fairly slowly
All foot armies advance at a walk so they don't reach the enemy too tired to fight. War isn't a PnP RPG where fights start 100 or fewer feet away and you sprint at the enemy because the game has no concept of stamina.
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I've seen HEMA practitioners. Yes, keeping the shield between you and your opponent is general best practice (just like a fighter spending an action to raise a shield every round is general best practice) but there are many times where the shield needs to temporarily get out of the way so you can attack, and it takes some time and effort (like an action) to put it back to a good defensive position.
The attack going out and coming back and the shield moving off line and coming back are part of the same action. If they aren't then I get to argue that it should take an action to ready your sword after each attack.
Pure gameplay contrivance. I'll totally admit that. If we wanted to be realistic, it would be an action. However, with the way they designed monk stances, if a mountain stance monk exists their stance, they kinda stop functioning from a game play perspective, while a shield user is just a little behind on damage compared to the 2 handed weapon user.
Then why not design fighters to use stances?
If you are not attacking or doing anything else?
I could be recalling knowledge and doing other purely mental non-strenuous tasks for all the difference it makes to my point.
And they also didn't sprint at the final stretch for the reason I mentioned, they are focusing on maintaining their shields over trying to attack to move.
Your assertion that a formation, different than a single skirmisher acting alone, couldn't run into battle with a shield raised defensively is false. You'd think geeks would know something of the world cribbed for their fantasies but alas.
"The tactics of the classical Greek phalanx included an ordered approach march, with a final charge to contact." - Connolly, Peter (1981). Greece and Rome at War. London: Macdonald Phoebus. p. 47. ISBN 978-0-356-06798-8.
https://www.historyskills.com/classroom/ancient-history/greek-phalanx/#:~:t ext=The%20Greek%20phalanx%20relied%20on,their%20spears%2C%20impaling%20the% 20enemy.
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You forget you're playing a game?
"I should be able to do this and this and that and..."
All games have rules and restrictions for the purpose of gameplay and story integration and segregation.
Fighters are not "idiots" as you repeatedly hooked on and parrot. There's other games besides P2 if you don't like the rules that make up the system. A lot of the negatives you're espousing aren't actually in the game, but are fabrications you're making based on how you view the game that doesn't align with how it works or how others see it, currently in you picking and choosing when to apply narrative and when to apply meta-mechanics, such as 6 second rounds, all to paint the thing you have an issue with in a negative light.
Fighter's don't drop their shields every 6 seconds, at the start of their turn they can decide to keep using their shield or put that effort (1 Action) into something else).
So raising a shield takes an action, but maintaining a strict martial arts stance - crane stance for example - doesn't. Explain that logic to me.
You've brought this up a few times. Do you have a reason to believe the game would be better if crane stance (or stances in general) only last one round and had to be re-applied every turn?
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You've brought this up a few times. Do you have a reason to believe the game would be better if crane stance (or stances in general) only last one round and had to be re-applied every turn?
So raising a shield takes an action, but maintaining a strict martial arts stance - crane stance for example - doesn't. Explain that logic to me.
Verisimilitude. If we're saying that it takes so much effort for a fighter to keep their shield up maintaining a specific stance should take at least that much effort.
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Fighter's don't drop their shields every 6 seconds, at the start of their turn they can decide to keep using their shield or put that effort (1 Action) into something else).
So what happens between when a fighter starts combat by raising a shield and taking two other actions and when their next turn starts and they suddenly find that they don't have their shield raised? Let's assume that the fighter is in combat, just one where the rest of the party can handle things so we're able to stand around but are still acting in combat rounds. What narratively happens between raising the shield in round 1 and it being dropped around 6-seconds later?
Basically I just need an advanced feat that grants the shield's AC bonus at all time without having to raise. If I Raise my Shield and possess that feat, there should be an additional benefit, like adding +1 or +2 to AC.
To me, Shield Blocking should be used only in dire situations, because sacrificing your shield isn't a simple decision. Sure, you can repair it in a 10-minute acitivity, but... what tells you that you WILL get a time out after the encounter?
Fighter's don't drop their shields every 6 seconds, at the start of their turn they can decide to keep using their shield or put that effort (1 Action) into something else).So what happens between when a fighter starts combat by raising a shield and taking two other actions and when their next turn starts and they suddenly find that they don't have their shield raised? Let's assume that the fighter is in combat, just one where the rest of the party can handle things so we're able to stand around but are still acting in combat rounds. What narratively happens between raising the shield in round 1 and it being dropped around 6-seconds later?
A tall lanky pale guy in a tuxedo walks in and says awkwardly "hiiiiiii".
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It's more like having a pool of energy, and using it to do things.
Rather than thinking that the shield magically drops, consider you have to invest some energy to keep it raised. To make a comparison, it's similar to sustaining a spell.
You want to always keep your guard up?
You invest some energy, round after round.At some point you want to drop it because you need to do anything else? You do so ( eventually, using your reaction to raise your shield, if attacked ).
Again this doesn't square with how other actions in the game work. Raising a shield defensively takes far less effort than maintaining a fighting stance as impractical as many of the monk stances are. Do these descriptions sound easier than holding up a shield?
"You enter the stance of a crane, holding your arms in an imitation of a crane’s wings and using flowing, defensive motions."
"You lower yourself to the ground and take an imposing, knuckle-walking stance."
"You enter the stance of a wolf, low to the ground with your hands held like fanged teeth."
I can't imagine any of these not taking far more energy than raising a shield and yet they cost a single action to enter and then stay all battle long. Much like how raising a shield should work.
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it's literally full of abilities that involves getting +1/+2 AC, that cost 1 action and that last 1 round.
That's all only the same for game balance reasons which I'm not overly worried about. I'd also be fine with most of those being stances that come with a drawback with raise a shield having no drawback and cantrip shield being a reaction.
By lvl 12 you just expend an action for the paragon stance, and you'll have your shield raised all the time.
Level 12 is really late to finally figure out how to use a shield. I know they put it there for niche protection (another thing I dislike) but that just keeps fighters feeling like they don't know how to use a shield for over half of the game's total levels.
The stance you should look at is mountain stance, that uses mountain stronghold ability, not damage stances like wolf, tiger, etc... these are just the monk equivalent for weapons ( they can also have access to weapons, but in order to use flurry of blows they are very limited in choices, and also have tax feats ).
I wasn't looking at mechanics. I was clearly looking at how hard maintaining those dumb stances would be compared to holding a shield in an effective fashion.
Honestly, do you think knuckle-walking like a gorilla seems easier than holding a shield?
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It's just like a boardgame
In that case, why not play a board game or even X-Com or Fire Emblem for your tactical combat fix? It seems to me that an RPG should emphasize getting into character and immersing yourself in that world more than it should focus on mechanical perfection that doesn't fit with reality.
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Fighter's don't drop their shields every 6 seconds, at the start of their turn they can decide to keep using their shield or put that effort (1 Action) into something else).So what happens between when a fighter starts combat by raising a shield and taking two other actions and when their next turn starts and they suddenly find that they don't have their shield raised? Let's assume that the fighter is in combat, just one where the rest of the party can handle things so we're able to stand around but are still acting in combat rounds. What narratively happens between raising the shield in round 1 and it being dropped around 6-seconds later?
You completely ignored what I said.
You are narratively imposing that the Fighter HAS to drop their shield. They don’t. They’re expending their energy and focus every round (1 action) to maintain their shield for blocking.
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It's just like a boardgameIn that case, why not play a board game or even X-Com or Fire Emblem for your tactical combat fix? It seems to me that an RPG should emphasize getting into character and immersing yourself in that world more than it should focus on mechanical perfection that doesn't fit with reality.
Pot, kettle.
You’re complaining that the combat isn’t up to your standards, then decrying others should go play different combat games when YOU are the one that has the issue with this game’s combat system, not them.
I can get into my character just fine, P2 does a decent job of not hampering that.
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You completely ignored what I said.
You are narratively imposing that the Fighter HAS to drop their shield. They don’t. They’re expending their energy and focus every round (1 action) to maintain their shield for blocking.
If they don't spend an action to do so they will always drop their shield. If they do something like walk briskly, say a couple of words to a specific type of ally (read: minion trait), and try to think about an enemy's weakness they drop their shield. Which of those three actions was so strenuous as to make maintaining a defensive stance impossible?
There's also still the ongoing fact that Monk stances that should take more effort to maintain don't have an action tax.
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I can get into my character just fine, P2 does a decent job of not hampering that.
Is decent good enough to earn your money? If it is, I can suggest some good and even great systems that you'll be over the moon about.
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I think you should consider whether you like to a play tactical rpg, like 2e, or a more descriptive one.
Playing a game, in this very case 2e, and complaining it's not like you want it to be is kinda pointless.
From what I understood from this conversation, is that you'd probably be at ease with
- campaign that starts at lvl 12
- free archetype variant ruleThis would provide you more personalization ( free archerype) and the possibility to hit a better resources management ( paragon stance, refocus x2, etc...).
I'd give it a try ( if your DM agrees. Some DM are afraid of mastering at middle or higher levels because reasons).
Given that I generally DM for my table I'll make any changes I need to and not feel bad about it. I just don't want to have to watch my players jump through hoops and keep thinking, "Will this cool thing I want to do cost me an action?" before each action they take. One of the guys in the group is already slow enough at taking turns even in relatively simple games like Terraforming Mars, I'd hate to see what PF2 would do to him.
I think Frosthaven and more freeform RPGs will serve us better than PF2 could.
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You completely ignored what I said.
You are narratively imposing that the Fighter HAS to drop their shield. They don’t. They’re expending their energy and focus every round (1 action) to maintain their shield for blocking.
If they don't spend an action to do so they will always drop their shield. If they do something like walk briskly, say a couple of words to a specific type of ally (read: minion trait), and try to think about an enemy's weakness they drop their shield. Which of those three actions was so strenuous as to make maintaining a defensive stance impossible?
There's also still the ongoing fact that Monk stances that should take more effort to maintain don't have an action tax.
If you spend three actions thinking (Recall Knowldge) you can’t walk or open a door or eat.
It’s gameplay restrictions and mechanics. The game isn’t meant to be a realistic combat simulator.
You have a vendetta against monks for doing something completely different than people using shields do. We get it.
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I can get into my character just fine, P2 does a decent job of not hampering that.Is decent good enough to earn your money? If it is, I can suggest some good and even great systems that you'll be over the moon about.
LMAO what is this?
I enjoy P2. You don’t play with me so you have no idea my wants out of a system, how egotistical can you be?
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I think you should consider whether you like to a play tactical rpg, like 2e, or a more descriptive one.
Playing a game, in this very case 2e, and complaining it's not like you want it to be is kinda pointless.
From what I understood from this conversation, is that you'd probably be at ease with
- campaign that starts at lvl 12
- free archetype variant ruleThis would provide you more personalization ( free archerype) and the possibility to hit a better resources management ( paragon stance, refocus x2, etc...).
I'd give it a try ( if your DM agrees. Some DM are afraid of mastering at middle or higher levels because reasons).
Given that I generally DM for my table I'll make any changes I need to and not feel bad about it. I just don't want to have to watch my players jump through hoops and keep thinking, "Will this cool thing I want to do cost me an action?" before each action they take. One of the guys in the group is already slow enough at taking turns even in relatively simple games like Terraforming Mars, I'd hate to see what PF2 would do to him.
I think Frosthaven and more freeform RPGs will serve us better than PF2 could.
Then go play those then?
If you and your friends don’t like P2 then don’t force yourselves to play it.
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Also: Maybe spin the shield chat into yet another thread. The original topic is being drowned.
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Good idea, soooooo... my number 1 wish for 2023 is to finally get a good haul of feat choices for all post-CRB classes. Maybe even some new class paths. Gods know, I would like some actual choices more often.
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Good idea, soooooo... my number 1 wish for 2023 is to finally get a good haul of feat choices for all post-CRB classes. Maybe even some new class paths. Gods know, I would like some actual choices more often.
I’d take something that gives all post CRB ancestries like the lost omens ancestry guide and such and APG and Mwangi Expanse etc a bunch of sick feats and then play catch up on everything from APG, SoM, DA etc class feats wise. Maybe split it into two books. Lost Omens: People’s Guide and Book of Ten Thousand Techniques.
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My main problem in the system right now is the proficiency general feats. They are the only part that rubs be the wrong way, considering it is a feat choice that becomes obsolete where most do not. I'm not sure we'll see it addressed this year, but hopefully at some point.
Concerning the shield conversation, I think it makes sense that if I want to move a full 75 feet, running would require dropping my shield. Same with attacking furiously (3 attacks). Where you see it being unrealistic, I see it being more realistic. Shield isn't gonna do much good if you don't see an attack coming, too.
The real problem with shields in PF2E is that in reality shields are not armor, they're a weapon.They aren't even weapons. Thay only act like them. You need to attach an actual weapon to them.
According to PF2 rules you do, yes. Those rules don't allow that one might bash somebody with a shield that doesn't have a "weapon" attached to it.
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Verisimilitude. If we're saying that it takes so much effort for a fighter to keep their shield up maintaining a specific stance should take at least that much effort.
And you think this would make the monk class more fun? More engaging to play?
I wasn't looking at mechanics.
Well there's your problem. Mechanics are important.