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It seems like this is a change that is about as much of a lore shift as it is about any balance concern. It seems like all the legacy lore restrictions tied to past versions of DnD got the boot.
I don’t know about anyone else that wasn’t in favor of the changes from a purely game balance perspective, but it is a much easier pill to swallow seeing that it is wrapped into a larger, necessary framework of moving the game away from DnD legacy lore. I think this change will end up making each of these classes look pretty different from their legacy peers, but that is now a necessarily good thing for the sake of protecting the game.
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I mean as far as too good rogues, we are looking at rogues picking up advanced weapon proficiencies, which is still a pain for non fighter martials, and some ruffians running around with something like a long sword in one hand and a hatchet in the other? The swashbuckler may end up needing another balancing pass but d8 martials have a real survivability issue if trying to be played as front liners or defenders. Like sparkling targe magus still could probably get 10hp a level and still not be the 3rd best magus.
Reach weapons and guns are two things the game has added a lot of that could swing balances, but I kinda see gun usage being a new narrative/lore feature of PF2, where classes can just use them and not break the game, so good on the rogue for getting easy access options with firearms. Reach weapons also promote enemies moving around more which is something that I am good with becoming more common and pushed on both players and GMs to make happen.
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In other words, I agree this will probably change game play a little, but towards things PF2 wants to be encouraging anyway. Rogues losing all their bonus damage when fighting incorporeal creatures and most oozes is a big enough problem for the class to have a lot of issues trying to pass fighters or barbarians
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In other words, I agree this will probably change game play a little, but towards things PF2 wants to be encouraging anyway. Rogues losing all their bonus damage when fighting incorporeal creatures and most oozes is a big enough problem for the class to have a lot of issues trying to pass fighters or barbariansWhile I hear that a lot, the statistics are not confirming it as enough problem for Rogues to balance their huge damage bonus with martial weapons now: out of what 1500 monsters or more only 83 creatures are immune to precision damage (things like Oozes and Skeletons)and only 11 creatures are resistant but most of those are resistant to everything.
It's really insignificant amount.
We hear about it as there is a stack of them in one particular adventure path. It seemed like a 40% of creatures had it when I was going through it. But that just may have been me.
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The thing is, oozes and incorporeal creatures in particular tend to show as solo monsters that are higher level than the party. If your primary party damage dealer relies on precision damage, you are very likely to run into at least 1 very difficult encounter, maybe many more depending on the campaign, where your party's primary means of doing damage is almost entirely negated. It can be a whole party killer. This isn't to say that Rogues or precision rangers or swashbucklers are unplayable, but you really don't want too many sources of precision damage as your damage boost mechanic in the same party. Rogue was already the best of these options as far as consistent precision damage goes, so maybe, maybe this is a change that hurts swashbucklers and investigators in terms of someone else does everything you can do better, but that really was already the case. Maybe items that interact just with their unique class mechanics is an easy enough fix without really being an errata change though. (I haven't seen the investigator played since Treasure Vault came out).
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I really don't see how the bladed scarf upsets things too much for rogues.
It's a d6 weapon with finesse and reach. I guess trip is semi relevant, as is flail crit. But crits aren't reliable so I don't see that as a big deal, although flail crits are nice for knocking someone prone it's just not happening reliably.
The Elven Branch spear, also a martial weapon, was already a d6 reach weapon option. An elf character, half elf, or adopted character could pick up elven weapon familiarity to be proficient with the elven branched spear (as though it were a simple weapon), before this change was even implemented.
So changing the rogue to be proficient with all martial weapons really just means you don't have to be a elf or raised by elves to get a finesse reach weapon, which is overall a good thing IMO.
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With this change rogues would now have access to:
Bladed Scarf
Dancer's Spear
Elven Branched Spear
Scorpion Whip
Thorn Whip
Whip
The first 3 are d6 weapons, the whips are d4 weapons. Of the group, I'd probably use the dancer's spear for versatile B and because it's not uncommon.
If you as a GM have a problem with the bladed scarf (which is attractive because of the trip trait) just remember it's uncommon so you can tell your players they don't have access to it.
Worth noting that it sounds like there will be a fair amount of buffs built into the revision. They specifically cited the Alchemist, Champion, Oracle, and Witch getting errata'ed. Alchemist and witch were explicitly getting tune ups. But so are lot of spells and items. Focus points will also be easier to use. Spells getting buffed is going to raise the overall power level of the game, so I wouldn't necessarily worry about rogues suddenly becoming OP until we see the rest of the changes.
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Well. Bomb-throwing rogues are now distinctly a thing. That's cool, I guess.
I'm not a super-fan of the change overall, but in context... I get it.
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This is a big win for pretty much anyone who wants to play a rogue, with fairly minor balance implications in general.
Hugely positive change, basically no downsides. Very pleased to see Paizo go this way.
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Bladed Scarf was already an option for rogues, you just use Unconventional Weaponry to make it count as a simple weapon for proficiency purposes. Likewise the Elven Branched Spear (another reach finesse 2h weapon)Yup, and feat costs balances that same as nerfed flickmace needs feat. Its called cost of opportunity. With new rules there will be no cost of using Bladed Scarf by Thiefs, especially if they will make Rogues scale martial and simple at same rate, which I don't like.
So wait! Charging 2 feats for a monk to get weapon specialization and still not having access to a meteor hammer is for balance, but allowing a rogue to use one ancestry feat for a bladed scarf IS balance? Yet, you feel that if rogues had access to blades scarfs they would be OP and everyone would play them that way?
Me thinks you just wish to argue.
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basically no downsides.
The downside is potential generic blandness. If everyone uses the same weapon it was a bad idea.
Personally I think it will be fine. But lets see.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This thread aged like fine wine
Bombs are not agile or finesse (required for thrown weapons) though, so there will still be no sneak attack with them. I don't think that will be that big a deal.
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Bombs are not agile or finesse (required for thrown weapons) though, so there will still be no sneak attack with them. I don't think that will be that big a deal.
The agile or finesse limitation for thrown weapons only applies to thrown melee weapons.
Bombs are not melee weapons that are thrown. They are Martial Thrown weapons and, therefore, qualify for sneak attack, as do Boomerangs.... If you Strike a creature that has the flat-footed condition with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, a ranged weapon attack, or a ranged unarmed attack, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse...
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Also I'm not personally concerned whether bombs interact with sneak attack or not; I just like the idea of an alchemical-themed rogue who uses explosives and gunpowder.
I'm mostly interested because a while back we were talking about particularly strong options for dual-classed characters. Alchemist/Barbarians were a bit on the disappointing side, because the thrown weapon barbarian, while technically possible, still has some pretty serious issues, and the combo didn't quite mesh. Alchemist/Rogues, though...? Well, they had issues before, but....
At the same time, I definitely think there's a viable build out there for "Thrown weapon (and sometimes bomb) rogue", especially if you're running FA.
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Even if we leave out all the non-mechanical reasons why people wouldn't always choose the bladed scarf - aesthetics for example - mechanics alone provide enough incentive for variety.
The bladed scarf is a two-handed weapon. Rogue is one of the classes that gets a lot out of having a free hand, both for skill actions and feats. Sabotage is hilarious when you just cut an enemy archer's bow sting XD. Also thrown weapons if you fancy those.
Eric Mona on the Roll for Combat Q&A already said that rogues is getting martial proficiency and wizards are getting simple.
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I'll note that my Devise a Stratagem tables include all of the finesse, agile, and ranged options, so they are prettty close to a sneak attack options list.
I also have tables listing all of the finesse options.
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The blade scarf, also imo is a pretty good weapon for someone who wants to be stealthy(or at least go unnoticed), from my understanding that is actually the in-lore reason for the existence. A weapon that Varisians could wear or have on them without drawing attention to them, but will be there in a fight.( i could be completely wrong and that was just an idea that our mind made up, but I could have sworn I read that somewhere.)
Now this isn't saying every rogue should, or that they will pick it. But if they did, it could be fitting depending on the type of rogue. Also all you ever needed to use it before as a rogue was to take Mauler dedication, since it was a two handed weapon.
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Why is it that if a single melee weapon dominates people freak out but when the shortbow does it everybody thinks it's a good thing?
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Why is it that if a single melee weapon dominates people freak out but when the shortbow does it everybody thinks it's a good thing?
Because bows did dominate in real life for a very long time. People are used to that notion before ever playing this game.
Bladed scarfs, on the other hand, never overtook swords in history so it strikes many people as wrong when it does in the game.
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Why is it that if a single melee weapon dominates people freak out but when the shortbow does it everybody thinks it's a good thing?
I don't think they do think it's a good thing. Hence why we have threads complaining about gunslingers and reload weapons.
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Because bows did dominate in real life for a very long time. People are used to that notion before ever playing this game.
Then by that logic crossbows and firearms should be the dominant forces as they had essentially pushed longbows off of the continent around the time plate armor was becoming common. Shorbows should be useless against anything larger than large size anyway as they won't have the power to reach anything vital.
Why is it that if a single melee weapon dominates people freak out but when the shortbow does it everybody thinks it's a good thing?
If the dominant melee weapon was a longsword the people fine with shortbows would probably say that's fine too.
Why is it that if a single melee weapon dominates people freak out but when the shortbow does it everybody thinks it's a good thing?If the dominant melee weapon was a longsword the people fine with shortbows would probably say that's fine too.
I think swords should probably get in the bin too outside of duels and self-defense scenarios. Bring out the armor-mashing hammers, polearms, and daggers shoved in eyeslits and armpits. Then let the rare magical sword break the norm and cut through armor for a few levels before magic armor resets the status quo.
Because bows did dominate in real life for a very long time. People are used to that notion before ever playing this game.Then by that logic crossbows and firearms should be the dominant forces as they had essentially pushed longbows off of the continent around the time plate armor was becoming common. Shorbows should be useless against anything larger than large size anyway as they won't have the power to reach anything vital.
I was speaking to peoples' feelings on the matter, not logic.
I was speaking to peoples' feelings on the matter, not logic.
Feelings... Bah humbug.
Because bows did dominate in real life for a very long time. People are used to that notion before ever playing this game.Then by that logic crossbows and firearms should be the dominant forces as they had essentially pushed longbows off of the continent around the time plate armor was becoming common. Shorbows should be useless against anything larger than large size anyway as they won't have the power to reach anything vital.
This isn't entirely accurate, the longbow was used til 1644 from what I'm seeing and had been used for 300 years and plate stops being used basically at 1700 but had existed in various forms for a few hundred years prior. Making it so that there is only maybe 50-60 years where there was plate but longbows had been rendered obsolete
This isn't entirely accurate, the longbow was used til 1644 from what I'm seeing and had been used for 300 years and plate stops being used basically at 1700 but had existed in various forms for a few hundred years prior. Making it so that there is only maybe 50-60 years where there was plate but longbows had been rendered obsoleteBecause bows did dominate in real life for a very long time. People are used to that notion before ever playing this game.Then by that logic crossbows and firearms should be the dominant forces as they had essentially pushed longbows off of the continent around the time plate armor was becoming common. Shorbows should be useless against anything larger than large size anyway as they won't have the power to reach anything vital.
It was still used but was mostly superseded by other weapons at that stage.