One of PF2's greatest strengths is the greater depth of culture it affords all of the people in its setting, where not only do humans refuse to be painted with a broad brush, but even people like orcs and catfolk can get multiple ethnic identities! Not every Ancestry was fortunate enough to get a treatment in the Character or Ancestry Guides - and likewise, many are hurting for more Feats and Heritages, on top of being thirsty for a little more lore.
By my count, there's 36 playable Ancestries in the edition at present. If you could wave you magic wand and bless one with more detail - pages of new Feats and meaty lore - who gets the spotlight?
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I think the crunch is more in the feats than in the heritages. All the ancestries have at least four heritages to choose from, which is livable. But for feats, it's more sparse.
I think the focus should be on having several choices at each level, that are common and that you could imagine using frequently during adventuring.
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I'm gonna cheat a bit and give an Ancestry AND a Versatile Heritage.
Ancestry: Anadi.
I love our spiderfriends and the one I'm playing in SoT is so so much fun. They already have some cool stuff, but I'd like more feats that allow specialization and expansion of their shapeshifting, natural weapons, and spiritual nature. OH! And some stuff to lean into the Grandmother Spider connection.
Likewise, there are many many many different types of spiders. That just screams opportunity for Heritages.
Versatile Heritage: Changeling
I want more of basically everything. More types of Hags represented. Types of changelings that aren't quite so directly related to hags. Types that lean into or push against the Call. Feats, lineages, etc. Whole thing. More more more.
A more general desire: Feat lines that build and expand on earlier features, as I mentioned for Anadi. I've complained that a lot of Ancestry-based natural weapons feel underwhelming for, imo, little meaningful balance payoff. So, if we're going to have kind of underwhelming features, let us feat into them. Let's get weird. And crazy. And crazyweird.
By my count, there's 36 playable Ancestries in the edition at present. If you could wave you magic wand and bless one with more detail - pages of new Feats and meaty lore - who gets the spotlight?
I'd actually prefer a lot of them to have the spotlight.
I find some ancestries bland. For example, Strixes can fly, and by itself it's already something strong with a lot of identity.
But a lot of ancestries have close to no identity through their feats. Or, to be more accurate, there's a little bit of identity through their feats but they are so bad or bland that they never come up while adventuring or don't feel really unique.
I'd add a strong feat to every ancestry without one. Something equivalent in power to Multitalented, Fortuitous Shift, Natural Ambition, Halfling Luck, Skittering Scuttle, Nimble Elf, Ageless Patience, Orc Ferocity, Unburdened Iron, etc... Something that would really make the Ancestry unique.
But I don't really answer your question...
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Gnoll would be nice, although it sounds like it's a riskier thing for Paizo to interact with from an IP perspective.
I'd appreciate kitsune and the mirror heritage both getting better options for looking like another person. Right now, that's mostly a tiefling thing.
Generally, it'd be nice to have a level 17 feat for everyone.
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For me, it's a tossup between the three brand-new Mwangi Expanse ancestries - but especially golomas and shisks.
Where the conrasu at least have a novel but evocative narrative and aesthetic, there is not a whole lot to grab onto with those two, with a slim selection of feats and a dearth of lore that is largely presented in a "mysterious and reclusive" manner, which I find frustratingly difficult to work with as both player and GM; there aren't even any named NPCs of those ancestries or mentions of them published in the time since - even the conrasu at least have a related incident report in Dark Archive!
Indeed, I was hoping that Impossible Lands would follow up on a hook that Mwangi Expanse put down, mentioning a rumor shisk enclave within the Shattered Range mountains that was within Nex's territory, but alas, no such mention of it there.
I was very excited for those new ancestries since they were first namedropped in the World Guide, but both arrived in the Mwangi Expanse a little light, and have been effectively missing in action since, which I find a little disappointing.
Indeed, I was hoping that Impossible Lands would follow up on a hook that Mwangi Expanse put down, mentioning a rumor shisk enclave within the Shattered Range mountains that was within Nex's territory, but alas, no such mention of it there.
Between that exact Shisk lore and the still-absent-from-2e Wyvarans, I was definitely hoping for a smidge more of the Shattered Range to come through (though I appreciate the inclusion of the Nearic halflings).
On the topic of Mwangi Ancestries, I’d appreciate just a crumb more of info on their various subdivisions - if the Mwangi Gnolls are Kholo, then what are the others? Fleshing that out even potentially offers a way out of the shadow of “gnoll” being D&D IP.
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So, hear me out: What about awakened animals?
I’m not totally sure how they would work out, but having Awakened Animal as an ancestry would go a long mile in showing just how versatile ancestries can be in this system! Not that that's needed, but you know. In my mind, heritages would signal to animal families (i.e Canine heritage, Ursine heritage, etc) and have a lot of lineage-like feats — although that would work out oddly with versatile heritages, and not having the option to play as a tiefling awakened rat does sound like a total bummer…
Plus, it’s a cool trope! And there’s a lot of room to write about them. What are the many ways that an animal can be awakened? Are there any communities of awakened animals, anywhere? Etc etc.
I dunno how not having hands would work out with the game, but I’m sure it’s a non-issue. I understand that Mark Seifter’s Dragon ancestry are also quadruped, no? So, there’s precedence!
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Wyvarans
That, or make it an alternate heritage for Kobolds that can be mixed with another.
Giantkin
I can see this as a versatile heritage, with the trait of getting one size larger with new ability modifiers. There could then be feats that allow you to awaken a dorment giant trait.
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When we inevitably get a Lost Omens: Tian Xia book, I would like a new heritage for kobolds that looks more like a humanoid dog. For those who don't know, in Japanese media, kobolds usually look like dog-people, so it would be a fun shout-out to that. (Apparently this is the case because the '80s Wizardry PC game was very popular in Japan, and kobolds look like dogs, which in turn is probably because kobolds had dog-like faces in the first edition of D&D.)
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When we inevitably get a Lost Omens: Tian Xia book, I would like a new heritage for kobolds that looks more like a humanoid dog. For those who don't know, in Japanese media, kobolds usually look like dog-people, so it would be a fun shout-out to that. (Apparently this is the case because the '80s Wizardry PC game was very popular in Japan, and kobolds look like dogs, which in turn is probably because kobolds had dog-like faces in the first edition of D&D.)
Ha, that might be cute! Could throw in pig-faced Orcs, too.
It's a little cheeky for my tastes, but there's way to play both ideas completely straight.
Ha, that might be cute! Could throw in pig-faced Orcs, too.
It's a little cheeky for my tastes, but there's way to play both ideas completely straight.
I can't believe I forgot pig Orcs (or "porcs", which I always think of when I see them). That would definitely be easier to explain than a mammal-like version of a reptilian ancestry, haha.
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I can't believe I forgot pig Orcs (or "porcs", which I always think of when I see them). That would definitely be easier to explain than a mammal-like version of a reptilian ancestry, haha.Ha, that might be cute! Could throw in pig-faced Orcs, too.
It's a little cheeky for my tastes, but there's way to play both ideas completely straight.
We have a nagaji heritage with human torso and snek bottom. "Ease of Explanation" is out the window and I love it.
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At the moment, I'd say Strix. I love them, and I'd like more lore and feats to represent Strix that don't come from Cheliax, especially lower level feats not related to flight or hatred of humans.
At the moment, I'd say Strix. I love them, and I'd like more lore and feats to represent Strix that don't come from Cheliax, especially lower level feats not related to flight or hatred of humans.
I appreciate that they seem to be an Arcadian people originally.
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It's hard for me to pick just one because I feel like most post-core ancestries desperately need more feats, to the point where I rarely look at their own heritages because I feel like a versatile is so necessary just to give them options.
I don't really play them or see that much appeal, but if I had to pick... Shisk, mostly because I realized reading this thread that I had literally forgot they existed before someone upthread mentioned them. That tells me they could use a lot more love.
Here's something worth asking for: more half-human heritages
We only have two... and I feel like there could be more. On the flip size, why only have half-human heritages? Are you telling me that gnomes and halflings can't mix or something XD ? Dude, half-goblin for halflings would be possible, come to think of it.
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Here's something worth asking for: more half-human heritages
We only have two... and I feel like there could be more. On the flip size, why only have half-human heritages? Are you telling me that gnomes and halflings can't mix or something XD ? Dude, half-goblin for halflings would be possible, come to think of it.
I think it's a recommendation in the half orc/ half elf ancestries that you can let the other half be not human
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I think it's a recommendation in the half orc/ half elf ancestries that you can let the other half be not humanHere's something worth asking for: more half-human heritages
We only have two... and I feel like there could be more. On the flip size, why only have half-human heritages? Are you telling me that gnomes and halflings can't mix or something XD ? Dude, half-goblin for halflings would be possible, come to think of it.
Indeed. It’ll be a cold day in Hell when someone stops me from making an Arcadian Half-Orc Dwarf, or I can commit to making Super Drizzt and having a Half-Orc Drow renegade.
Indeed. It’ll be a cold day in Hell when someone stops me from making an Arcadian Half-Orc Dwarf, or I can commit to making Super Drizzt and having a Half-Orc Drow renegade.I think it's a recommendation in the half orc/ half elf ancestries that you can let the other half be not humanHere's something worth asking for: more half-human heritages
We only have two... and I feel like there could be more. On the flip size, why only have half-human heritages? Are you telling me that gnomes and halflings can't mix or something XD ? Dude, half-goblin for halflings would be possible, come to think of it.
The rules state that you can, so :) It's just hidden :P
Still, no gnome/halfling or goblin/halfling crossbreed?
It's sort of a running joke in elfgames that humans are special in their ability to breed with anything (particularly back when a sorcerer's bloodline wasn't potentially just due to "longterm exposure to the right kind of energy"). So I think it's canon to make it that half-elves and half-orcs are always half-human, but mechanically it's very easy to make these versatile heritages if that's what you want for your game.
Particularly since the half-elf/orc heritages are just "you gain traits, and low-light vision, and you're able to take ancestry feats from either ancestry" it's not especially hard to make anything with better-than-human vision into a half-foo heritage, so the only thing keeping half-leshies out of your game is probably "I don't like the idea."
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While technically a versatile Heritage, I really, really want to see more love given to the Ganzi.
Everyone loves a good ol' Tiefling or Aasismar, and we have a lot of excellent stuff to flesh them out.
And even the Aphorites have some cool stuff that feels like it is at least enough to flesh out a really good character.
But Ganzi, besides having had no extra love since their inclusion in the Ancestry guide, feel like what they do have is sort of haphazard at best.
No level 17 feat, and the feats that they do have feel very incomplete. The start of feat trees, like the vestigial wings and the chaos magic and to a lesser extent the gripping tail, without any follow up to enhance those.
The Valkyrie/Einherji feats are awesome, but there's only two of them. The random roll feats feel fun but frustrating, since they can be really cool but they're also somewhat unreliable.
I LOVE the Ganzi. They are by a large margin my favorite thing that is unique to Pathfinder. In PF1, they felt really interesting and had a lot of different things you could do with them. The Amorphous limbs, the all -powerful Quibble, the Void Touch, Entropic Flesh, Racing Mind, they were easily one of the more flexible Ancestries of PF1.
We could get a lot of those ideas reworked for PF2, plus more. Maybe a higher level feat could let you control any randomness in your other feats, maybe even some form of a lesser Warpwave.
There is SO much you could do with a child of Chaos, and I'm a little disappointed with what little we have so far.
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Agree. Ganzi, Aphorites, Beastkin, and Reflections all have less than half the feat count Aasimar and Tieflings have.
Although Beastkin I think are just fundamentally a little broken when so much of their power is locked behind picking the right animal.
Ganzi, thankfully, have a lot of room for expansion in both Southern Garund and Arcadia. Fingers crossed we visit either in depth so they can receive some local love.
It's sort of a running joke in elfgames that humans are special in their ability to breed with anything (particularly back when a sorcerer's bloodline wasn't potentially just due to "longterm exposure to the right kind of energy"). So I think it's canon to make it that half-elves and half-orcs are always half-human, but mechanically it's very easy to make these versatile heritages if that's what you want for your game.
Particularly since the half-elf/orc heritages are just "you gain traits, and low-light vision, and you're able to take ancestry feats from either ancestry" it's not especially hard to make anything with better-than-human vision into a half-foo heritage, so the only thing keeping half-leshies out of your game is probably "I don't like the idea."
Some ancestries are often known as "unwanted". I've seen this for half-orcs and changelings, in the past. That's why I'm puzzled that a goblin/halfling crossbreed hasn't been added yet, when it seems just as likely as half-orcs.
Agree. Ganzi, Aphorites, Beastkin, and Reflections all have less than half the feat count Aasimar and Tieflings have.
Although Beastkin I think are just fundamentally a little broken when so much of their power is locked behind picking the right animal.
Aren't those ancestries... on top of of the one you pick? You do end with 2 feat lists.
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Not a mechanics thing, but I'd enjoy kobold art for each category of dragon.
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Indeed. It’ll be a cold day in Hell when someone stops me from making an Arcadian Half-Orc Dwarf, or I can commit to making Super Drizzt and having a Half-Orc Drow renegade.I think it's a recommendation in the half orc/ half elf ancestries that you can let the other half be not humanHere's something worth asking for: more half-human heritages
We only have two... and I feel like there could be more. On the flip size, why only have half-human heritages? Are you telling me that gnomes and halflings can't mix or something XD ? Dude, half-goblin for halflings would be possible, come to think of it.
There's nothing in these concepts I don't love!
playqbke drow!!
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I don't know how I'd missed that neither Aphorites nor Ganzi have any Lineages, unlike Aasimar and Tieflings - that's a shame!
I don't know how I'd missed that neither Aphorites nor Ganzi have any Lineages, unlike Aasimar and Tieflings - that's a shame!
The difference is that for Aasimars and Tieflings, there are multiple species of Celestials and Fiends. For Aphorites and Ganzis however, there are only the Axiomites and Proteans.
If there were multiple Lawful or Chaotic outsiders, there would have been possible.
If you want something missing, Sahkil and Dorvae lineages aren't available for Tieflings and Manasaputra linegaes for Aasimars. Back in P1E, those outsider families were introduced much later, but in P2E, those could have been added "at launch".
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I assume ganzis and aphorites lack lineages for two different reasons - aphorites have a somewhat 'monolithic' origin story (compared to tieflings or aasimar), whereas ganzis' inherently chaotic nature seems like something as categorized as 'lineages' would go against that chaos.
These aren't bulletproof lines of reasoning of course, but I imagine it's sort of why they don't have them - it's not like duskwalkers have lineages either.
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Something I don't necessarily need more things like feats and stuff for, but would like to see more of, are non-human half-elves and half-orcs. The optional rule IS there, yes, but I'd like to see some NPCs in the setting books or adventure paths. Some more stories than just "forbidden love" with a side of "bullied in childhood for being different." Let me see some of these crazy kids IN Golarion!
I assume ganzis and aphorites lack lineages for two different reasons - aphorites have a somewhat 'monolithic' origin story (compared to tieflings or aasimar), whereas ganzis' inherently chaotic nature seems like something as categorized as 'lineages' would go against that chaos.
These aren't bulletproof lines of reasoning of course, but I imagine it's sort of why they don't have them - it's not like duskwalkers have lineages either.
I didn't notice it that 1) Aeons were now Lawful creatures (instead of True Neutral) and 2) Inevitables were now Aeons (instead of their own species).