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While people are making 4e comparisons, I want to praise one of my favorite parts of the system: while a starting character obviously had their Class and subclass, you picked up a Paragon Path at level 11, and an Epic Destiny at level 21, both of which had specific progression alongside what your Class continued to get as you leveled. Some of these were tied to certain Classes (want your Infernal Warlock to get more Hell-y?), but plenty others were tied to things like your Race, or even what god you served or country you hailed from.
That is a vibe for Mythic I could be really happy with, where it's open to a variety of stories: heroes of prophecy, demigods, once-in-a-generation tacticians, thieves who become legends of the streets...
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I don't think there's a story you could tell about low level mythic people that you couldn't really tell about low level people anyway, but there are some abilities that you could give to low level mythic people that would make them feel mythic.
Things like "more than 3 focus points" or "can refocus during combat" or "can flourish twice" are things you could give to low tier mythic people that feel like "breaking the rules" in the way mythic should.
So I think when it comes to low level mythic people it's less about "what stories you can tell about them" and is actually about mechanics.
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I don't think there's a story you could tell about low level mythic people that you couldn't really tell about low level people anyway, but there are some abilities that you could give to low level mythic people that would make them feel mythic.
Things like "more than 3 focus points" or "can refocus during combat" or "can flourish twice" are things you could give to low tier mythic people that feel like "breaking the rules" in the way mythic should.
So I think when it comes to low level mythic people it's less about "what stories you can tell about them" and is actually about mechanics.
I disagree. To me, maybe that's because we are still talking about flavor, but while those could be parts to consider, that wouldn't make anything "mythic."
I mean, all you need to do is look at a lot of mythology where the "heroes" aren't huge powerhouses and are mostly city-state level for "low level mythic." Examples have actually already been discussed earlier.
Also, fwiw, an interesting "low level mythic" adventure could be "We Be Godblins", the long-awaited conclusion to the We Be Goblins series.
"We Be Godblins" gets a smile out of me, and I'm a noted Golarion goblin disliker.
It's probably too niche to see print, but a Mythic story about trying to become inspirational patron deities for traditional obscure, marginalized, or "monstrous" Ancestries could be a lot of fun - or at least be the flavor for a few Backgrounds in such an AP. Now, is this just because I'd like to see Nuar Spiritskin properly ascend, in the name of PC Minotaurs?
Just a little.
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Mythic Story Ideas:
Collect the signatures of greater deities of 9 different alignments to amend the Laws of Golden Perfection, via diplomacy, subterfuge or combat.
Invasion of the Shadow Plane, and recovering the soul of Dou-Bral from the twisted form of Zon Kuthon.
End the Winter in Irrisen.
Another story idea: Handle the freeing of *all three* remaining imprisoned elemental lords, and particularly the following planar-level power struggles. Could even be that Ranginori is the one who found a way to imbue the party with Mythic powers this time. Or perhaps Hshurha for the opposite purposes?
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Break Pharasma’s grip on dying and death. Bonus points if you are all undead.
Resurrect the Runelord system and take over.
Take the war to the aboleth. Bonus points if you poop on every arrogant Azlanti along the way.
Permanently blot out every mention of Aroden ever, or failing that, take the aeon orbs he stole back to the Darklands (if any survive) and regenerate them/reinstall them.
Make gnomes, halflings and dwarves fun or interesting.
Adventure in the land of Sarusan, breaking the 4th Wall at all times to ask the devs “WTF is even in here?!?”
Actually make it to the bottom of the Emerald Spire, then back again, twice. Bonus points if you only use your fists. (To fight, or walk - your choice.)
Split the party.
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One way to mechanize the narrative powers implied by mythic is having a Mythic currency like hero points that you acquire at a steady rate and spend to let you do something that defies logic from then on.
Something like:
GM: A huge wave knocks over the ship-
Player: I'm going to grapple the wave.
GM: Alright, by spending your mythic point you have gained the ability to wrestle with the might of the ocean. Roll athletics
Your mythic progression would read like a list of incredible feats.
IDK, with a comprehensive GM guide with example unlocks it could be workable.
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...and they're going on a bit of God of War path with sprinkling some Mythender into things.
Ah. A gentleman of culture. /tips-monocle
More seriously... :)
One way to mechanize the narrative powers implied by mythic is having a Mythic currency like hero points that you acquire at a steady rate and spend to let you do something that defies logic from then on.
I'm a big fan of metacurrencies to affect narrative, so this sounds pretty great. My Fate RPG background is showing. What you're describing sounds a lot like how Iron Edda and Scion RPGs handle Scale (different specific mechanics, but similar concepts).
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Going back to an earlier thing, on the topic of cosmology, I would really like to see emphasis on a sort of "mythic reality" of "The World" that allows the really "weird" mythic things to happen. Referencing the earlier "hold up the sky" discussion.
The key thing would be to emphasize how the "mythic reality" (working term) is a part of the world and not just separate from it. As well as make clear its place in the multiverse.
Also, in terms of "mythic currency," that's a great idea for "lower-level mythic," and a way to emphasize the progression might be to decrease focus on needing to spend a resource, or give a lot of that resource.
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Mythic Story Ideas:
Collect the signatures of greater deities of 9 different alignments to amend the Laws of Golden Perfection, via diplomacy, subterfuge or combat.Invasion of the Shadow Plane, and recovering the soul of Dou-Bral from the twisted form of Zon Kuthon.
End the Winter in Irrisen.
Dudemeister, how do you consistently have such good ideas?
I would be all over that Zon-Kuthon/Dou-Bral storyline, especially if it could heal/mercy kill his poor spirit father and/or give us some nice big mythology revelations. Returning the seasons to Irrisen is the rare storyline for that land I could actually see myself enjoying - doubly so if I could play as a Winter Wolf.
I was not a fan of mythic in 1e, and I would not be interested in tacking in an OP ruleset to 2e. But I do think it would be interesting to have a true L20 adventure where you could rock those capstone abilities and have some demigod-level fun.
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Mythic Story Ideas:
Collect the signatures of greater deities of 9 different alignments to amend the Laws of Golden Perfection, via diplomacy, subterfuge or combat.Invasion of the Shadow Plane, and recovering the soul of Dou-Bral from the twisted form of Zon Kuthon.
End the Winter in Irrisen.
Dudemeister, how do you consistently have such good ideas?
I would be all over that Zon-Kuthon/Dou-Bral storyline, especially if it could heal/mercy kill his poor spirit father and/or give us some nice big mythology revelations. Returning the seasons to Irrisen is the rare storyline for that land I could actually see myself enjoying - doubly so if I could play as a Winter Wolf.
I generally just dig into the themes that are already present in the books, and extrapolate :P
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More on the topic of "level tiers/expectations and how the system needs to emphasize that, because as it is right now, there is still nothing official really to differentiate that.
And this is a very pertinent problem. I mean, if you were to tell me a bunch of medieval people with swords and bows could take on troops worth of WW1 era modernized armies (empowered with magic and undead no less), I would have laughed. Yet that's exactly what happens in Reign of Winter 5. Ditto for medieval people taking on organized high-tech resistance that greatly outnumbers them-- but that's exactly what happens in the Numeria AP.
What I am saying is, the need for improvement starts way before "mythic".
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I mean, in Wrath of the Righteous for the first 2-3 books you didn't really feel "mythic" just "more powerful" in a way you could already accomplish with something like "double feats." Sure, the Champion gave you effectively Pounce for 1 mythic power point, but people (like animal barbarians and pummeling monks) already got Pounce from feats so this was mostly "you can do this useful thing on more characters."
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Of course. Because before we can introduce improbable feats of fantastic heroism into the system, we need to eradicate improbable feats of fantastic heroism from the system.More on the topic of "level tiers/expectations and how the system needs to emphasize that, because as it is right now, there is still nothing official really to differentiate that.
And this is a very pertinent problem. I mean, if you were to tell me a bunch of medieval people with swords and bows could take on troops worth of WW1 era modernized armies (empowered with magic and undead no less), I would have laughed. Yet that's exactly what happens in Reign of Winter 5. Ditto for medieval people taking on organized high-tech resistance that greatly outnumbers them-- but that's exactly what happens in the Numeria AP.
What I am saying is, the need for improvement starts way before "mythic".
Uh, what? This is a callback to earlier when I commented about how PF (and D&D) can't make up its mind whether it's supposed to be a gritty medieval game or a high sci-fantasy game. I'm not even remotely saying "PF should only be a gritty medieval game", I'm saying "we need to at least give GMs and Players some kind of tools and/or a metric to differentiate between different 'tiers' and determine what they want."
I mean, in Wrath of the Righteous for the first 2-3 books you didn't really feel "mythic" just "more powerful" in a way you could already accomplish with something like "double feats." Sure, the Champion gave you effectively Pounce for 1 mythic power point, but people (like animal barbarians and pummeling monks) already got Pounce from feats so this was mostly "you can do this useful thing on more characters."
This is the sort of thing I would like "mythic" to avoid. Just "adding another modifier" is really boring and flat.
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Going back to an earlier thing, on the topic of cosmology, I would really like to see emphasis on a sort of "mythic reality" of "The World" that allows the really "weird" mythic things to happen. Referencing the earlier "hold up the sky" discussion.
The key thing would be to emphasize how the "mythic reality" (working term) is a part of the world and not just separate from it. As well as make clear its place in the multiverse.
Also, in terms of "mythic currency," that's a great idea for "lower-level mythic," and a way to emphasize the progression might be to decrease focus on needing to spend a resource, or give a lot of that resource.
This reminds me of a TTRPG created by a friend of mine some time ago where you played creatures of myth who had a few extraordinary non-combat abilities. These abilities would prove incredibly useful to solve encounters in non-violent ways. And your appearance would adapt to the setting where your adventure happened. For example, a creature you built as a european Fey would adapt its appearance to become a creature of japanese folklore if the encounters happened in Japan.
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With Mythic, I would like my PCs to be able, from 1st-level, to adventure in places which usually require high-level abilities (the planes, space, the atmosphere, underwater). And interact with high-level creatures in non-combat ways without feeling way overwhelmed.
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In book 3 of Wrath of the Righteous, the party is getting ridiculous. It is the casters that break the game with mythic rules, even if it takes one champion martial to be the top of their spear.
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As for specific stories, investigate the disappearance of the Seal, help Groetus destroy an outer god for good, redeem Groetus or Gorum, decypher the mysteries of the Great Beyond, retrace Dou-bral's travels and get some clues (though not the complete explanation) of what happened to him ...
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I want a version of Mythic where your party could be young, level 1 heroes chosen by the gods or fate for great things - scrappy and inexperienced, but still remarkable in some way. One of my favorite 2e developments is the shorter Adventure Paths, and I think a 1-10 Mythic AP that felt like the Odyssey or the journeys of the Argonauts would be a joy, rather than demanding that all Mythic PCs be slaying deities and overturning nations.
And I think that I can run EXACTLY that campaign with the existing rules by keeping the characters as they are and tweaking the world. I mean, just about all the monsters encountered are ALREADY statted up in PF2 terms :-).
You need a GM who is very liberal in interpreting player suggestions that "break the game" (wax earplugs, for example :-)). you need to carefully calibrate levels and that is about it. Problem solved.
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With Mythic, I would like my PCs to be able, from 1st-level, to adventure in places which usually require high-level abilities (the planes, space, the atmosphere, underwater). And interact with high-level creatures in non-combat ways without feeling way overwhelmed.
And how is that any different than a mid level PC who has those abilities through magic items or class or ancestral feats?
How is your mythic farm boy shmoozing with a God any different than my level 12 bard shmoozing with a God? Either your mythic system just improves Farm Boys diplomacy or it just side steps it completely.
To me, if I want to tell mythic stories I want a rules light engine to start. Then "Farm boy who is mythic at shmoozing" or "sheep herder who is absurdly strong" are fairly easy concepts to embody. Heck, I could do it in Fudge in about 5 minutes just by changing the definitions of the ranks.
But PF2 is a rules heavy system with lots and lots of mechanics for just about everything. It is just a really, really bad starting point for this.
As far as I can see (and that includes playing PF1 mythic, playing a couple of mythic ish campaigns in other systems, and reading this thread) your PF2 options are
1) Bigger numbers (the route taken by PF1, generally considered a mythic fail)
2) Keep the same numbers and change the world flavour (the approach I strongly prefer)
3) Just ignore wide sections of the PF2 rules and replace it with a rules light system (PC wrestles a tidal wave? That just about has to be GM fiat)
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With Mythic, I would like my PCs to be able, from 1st-level, to adventure in places which usually require high-level abilities (the planes, space, the atmosphere, underwater). And interact with high-level creatures in non-combat ways without feeling way overwhelmed.And how is that any different than a mid level PC who has those abilities through magic items or class or ancestral feats?
How is your mythic farm boy shmoozing with a God any different than my level 12 bard shmoozing with a God? Either your mythic system just improves Farm Boys diplomacy or it just side steps it completely.
To me, if I want to tell mythic stories I want a rules light engine to start. Then "Farm boy who is mythic at shmoozing" or "sheep herder who is absurdly strong" are fairly easy concepts to embody. Heck, I could do it in Fudge in about 5 minutes just by changing the definitions of the ranks.
But PF2 is a rules heavy system with lots and lots of mechanics for just about everything. It is just a really, really bad starting point for this.
As far as I can see (and that includes playing PF1 mythic, playing a couple of mythic ish campaigns in other systems, and reading this thread) your PF2 options are
1) Bigger numbers (the route taken by PF1, generally considered a mythic fail)
2) Keep the same numbers and change the world flavour (the approach I strongly prefer)
3) Just ignore wide sections of the PF2 rules and replace it with a rules light system (PC wrestles a tidal wave? That just about has to be GM fiat)
TBH I would be verging on just saying approach 3 is the best, but I've seen many good examples in favor of approach 2 in this thread.
Nevertheless, I still think it is necessary to include a way to allow GMs and players to build characters according to certain "tiers" and "expectations" so to speak, since rn we have nothing.
I also think there is quite a bit of fat to be trimmed from 2e and PF in general as well.
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It's interesting how these "What do you want to do with X" or "What do you want X for" threads always turn into someone getting very insistent on how nobody should be allowed to have X in the first place.
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I generally agree with you about this point Squiggit, but I really think it is important to understand how much the mythic rules as they were presented in PF1 fell flat on the exciting promise they made to enable us to tell bigger, more mythical stories in that system.
The AP that fully utilized them is wildly successful as a Video game, largely because it is getting to tell that big massive story that players were so excited about, by dialing back the unlimited power choices of the system, focusing all of the big mythic story elements onto only one character, and by taking certain big narrative moments that could derail the game completely out of the hands of the player.
I wonder how many parties completed the Wrath of the Righteous AP from start to finish using the full mythic rules, and how many GMs felt like it was a fun campaign to run. From my lurking and contributing to the message boards there, it seems like almost every GM either had to take on nearly a full AP writting's worth of additional work to dial in the rules and make it all make narrative sense, or else just basically ask the PCs what was going to happen, and then either just make that narratively happen, or take hours and hours for the players to figure out what combination of spells and abilities were going to make it happen that way.
In talking about what kind of mythic stories we want to be able to tell in PF2, I think it is important to focus as much on the "be able to tell" part as both what players can do, but how GMs can run things without feeling like they are investing obscene amounts of hours of prep time into what is essential "PC make the rules story time."
I think spending time dialing in what getting to play as a mythical hero, as opposed to PF2 regular hero means is worth while, before demanding stories that are trying to meet different and impossible to reconcile contradictions. I mean, something as little as "what happens if the PCs are all immune to negative damage?" becomes problematic when it is given out in the second of six AP books and it is clear that the implications of that were not very well discussed with the other adventure writers of that same AP. Mythic at its worst feels like the opportunity to open this can 100 times (all the different mythic abilities and feat modifications) at once, and can easily cause chaos for adventure writers. While I too would hope that it can be done better next time, it is important to understand how to incorporate elements that will completely break core assumptions of the game in a way that can be controlled and understood by GMs and adventure writers.
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-snip-
I agree, its not just a matter of having or not having, its largely about figuring out what actually fits into the game the best and what it enables vs. disables.
I have the same fears regarding the PF1e mythic being bad because it bites off more than it can chew by doubling up on something that is already represented: your character's power level as a badass hero, it seems to center around saying "I'm a level 2 character with the power of a level 5-or-whatever, character" which ends up just being a weird anomaly in the way the game actually works, in a game where you already do mythical things like beat up Oni, or consort with Angels, or leap between shadows.
So if I seem down on the idea of low level mythic, its not because "you aren't allowed to have it" its because I think its struggling to have a meaningful identity, because the tools in the existing game are being underestimated. its also resource intensive because it then has to cover Low Level AND High Level.
Whereas there really is no existing solution for 'all those things stronger than Treerazor.' Other than giving up on the idea of them being stronger than Treerazor, or just keeping them permanently in special-quest-to-depower style story.
While people are making 4e comparisons, I want to praise one of my favorite parts of the system: while a starting character obviously had their Class and subclass, you picked up a Paragon Path at level 11, and an Epic Destiny at level 21, both of which had specific progression alongside what your Class continued to get as you leveled. Some of these were tied to certain Classes (want your Infernal Warlock to get more Hell-y?), but plenty others were tied to things like your Race, or even what god you served or country you hailed from.
That is a vibe for Mythic I could be really happy with, where it's open to a variety of stories: heroes of prophecy, demigods, once-in-a-generation tacticians, thieves who become legends of the streets...
I would die for archetypes you take at high level that just did that exactly, and let you go beyond 20, though I'm not sure if the parallel part is a great fit for this system.
Consdiering that Empyreal Lords and Demon Lords are around 28-30th level, I wonder if you couldn't do mythic as "ten more levels after 20" so you could do a Mythical AP over 6 issues where the first one starts at level 11.
Then you can tell whatever story you wanted for the first 10 levels. If you made a 3 issue 1-10 where the PCs were special in some way you could put that with the 11-∞ AP for people who want "special" characters from the start (a thing that should probably not even need to involve Mythic.
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Let me take a step back, if I might. Its a serious question, I think the answer will help me to understand what you're looking for. And maybe make you define the problem more precisely
I'm unusual (certainly NOT unique, but unusual) in that I've played a whole crapton of different systems over the years. When I'm designing a home campaign I first define what I want the campaign to be and THEN choose the game engine to run it in.
You decide that you want to run a really, really mythic campaign. Pick just about any example from this thread. Jason and the Argonauts, the defeat of Rovagug, whatever.
Why would you decide to run that campaign using modified PF2 rules as opposed to tweaking your favourite rules light and/or high powered game system (Amber, Fudge, Fate, whatever)? In what way is your campaign improved by starting with a system that, at its core, is designed to give you a very structured and balanced game experience where the focus of the system is absolutely on combat (oh, it handles other things but combat is very, very definitely the focus of PF2) and a world where lots and lots of people can already do things that would often by considered mythic by many people (visiting the Gods, saving the world, slaying dragons are all things that high level adventurers can already do)
My players in our ROtR game are level 15 now. And I'm adjusting things up to where they'll be 20th after they fight Karzoug.
I have some level 20 content for them to enjoy being level 20 for a while.
But I've been toying with a homemade set of rules that are sort of a cross between Epic and Mythic that goes up to level 25 or so.
Epic in that it's post-20th. Mythic in that you choose a "path" with your Epic archetype.
It might not be for everyone. But for a home game, it's just quick & dirty rules that should be fun. Most of the options I gave for building Epic characters are more about having more things to do, as opposed to just more numbers. And it's based on feat selection, just like lower levels. So two Epic characters won't necessarily be the same.
I'll drop back in when the time comes and let everyone know how it went. Definitely gonna read these story ideas in case I need campaign inspiration.
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The whole point of this exercise is to find a solution to that that isn't "use a different system I guess." Because otherwise we may as well have not written this thread.
But more on topic, because we have already had a ton of discussions on how to do it in this thread already, and because that discussion could lead into ways to genuinely improve the system. Also, because 2e doesn't have any official "mythic" counterpart stuff at this point.
It also helps that this discussion aids with the issue of trying to balance even "lower level" things, as I have brought up.
I would use PF2 because that’s the system that’s allowed to use Golarion. There’s lore I want that’s specifically tied to Mythic content - the devs have talked about not going to Iblydos without it, for instance.
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Personally, if it's not Pathfinder, I'm not going to get Pathfinder adventures that use the content. Even if the PCs didn't get it in Pathfinder 1e, some monsters used the rules in adventures.
Not to mention that at this point, my gaming group has scattered to the four winds, and not all of them are willing to learn a new system even if (and it's a very big if) the system is programmed into a VTT. Pathfinder is reliably updated on several VTTs, which makes it a good stand-by.
Tertiarily, I really don't enjoy narrative systems like FATE, despite the fact I've tried to enjoy them. They just don't work for me.
Consdiering that Empyreal Lords and Demon Lords are around 28-30th level, I wonder if you couldn't do mythic as "ten more levels after 20" so you could do a Mythical AP over 6 issues where the first one starts at level 11.
Then you can tell whatever story you wanted for the first 10 levels. If you made a 3 issue 1-10 where the PCs were special in some way you could put that with the 11-∞ AP for people who want "special" characters from the start (a thing that should probably not even need to involve Mythic.
I hope they'd be able to create more monsters for such an AP. While mythic implemented as a post-20 system makes the most sense to me (and gives me the high-level demigod statblocks I crave) the big, glaring flaw is that, by the time the characters are beyond level 20, it's hard to find everyday enemies to fight them. It feels especially odd with PF2E's tighter math, meaning that fights need to be closer to your level to remain relevant.
That gives you a pretty small narrative space to draw monsters from. I suppose there could be rules for fighting large numbers of enemies at once, but that doesn't work well on a tactical grid. The other options that I can think of are either fighting four, or six, or ten copies of the usual capstone monsters, or slapping something on them to make them all much more powerful, which feels odd viz characters like Treerazor when some no-name battle fodder can become as powerful as they are.
I mean, one "obvious" way would simply to be to "expand" the scope of the multiverse so to speak. Throwing down with space gods and the gods of worlds, etc. etc., and the minions and disasters they throw at you.
Or, as discussed earlier, "longer-reaching" campaigns where you reshape the course of civilizations and the universe/multiverse.
My personal setting Planescape Future basically incorporates this, which is very in theme anyways.
So one thing about a Mythic Adventure, is that after WotR the PCs are most likely the most powerful people on Golarion. They can just go murk arch devils and demon lords whenever they want to.
But, for obvious reasons, the party from that AP does not put their thumb on the scale for every single crisis that crops up even if they could go punt Tar Baphon into the Dark Tapestry before lunch. So obviously there is something else that requires their attention, since "we're heroes who solve problems" is sort of part and parcel to their nature by the end of that AP.
If we did get a mythic adventure for PF2, I'd like to get some glimpse of the sorts of things that people who are literally as powerful as demigods concern themselves with.
Well then this is a setting issue at this point, not a rules issue. Although one could argue they share elements.
But anyways, the point still stands that better adventure writing is going to be necessary for this anyways.
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With Mythic, I would like my PCs to be able, from 1st-level, to adventure in places which usually require high-level abilities (the planes, space, the atmosphere, underwater). And interact with high-level creatures in non-combat ways without feeling way overwhelmed.And how is that any different than a mid level PC who has those abilities through magic items or class or ancestral feats?
How is your mythic farm boy shmoozing with a God any different than my level 12 bard shmoozing with a God? Either your mythic system just improves Farm Boys diplomacy or it just side steps it completely.
The difference is I can play and enjoy it from the very first game session, just after creating the PC.
And yes, using the NPC rules of a low level NPC with specific high abilities (often skills) as required by their role in the story could be a path to PF2 Mythic rules.
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Let me take a step back, if I might. Its a serious question, I think the answer will help me to understand what you're looking for. And maybe make you define the problem more precisely
I'm unusual (certainly NOT unique, but unusual) in that I've played a whole crapton of different systems over the years. When I'm designing a home campaign I first define what I want the campaign to be and THEN choose the game engine to run it in.
You decide that you want to run a really, really mythic campaign. Pick just about any example from this thread. Jason and the Argonauts, the defeat of Rovagug, whatever.
Why would you decide to run that campaign using modified PF2 rules as opposed to tweaking your favourite rules light and/or high powered game system (Amber, Fudge, Fate, whatever)? In what way is your campaign improved by starting with a system that, at its core, is designed to give you a very structured and balanced game experience where the focus of the system is absolutely on combat (oh, it handles other things but combat is very, very definitely the focus of PF2) and a world where lots and lots of people can already do things that would often by considered mythic by many people (visiting the Gods, saving the world, slaying dragons are all things that high level adventurers can already do)
Because I do not wish to learn a complete new system divorced from the PF2 system I am familiar with.
With Mythic, I would like my PCs to be able, from 1st-level, to adventure in places which usually require high-level abilities (the planes, space, the atmosphere, underwater). And interact with high-level creatures in non-combat ways without feeling way overwhelmed.And how is that any different than a mid level PC who has those abilities through magic items or class or ancestral feats?
How is your mythic farm boy shmoozing with a God any different than my level 12 bard shmoozing with a God? Either your mythic system just improves Farm Boys diplomacy or it just side steps it completely.
The difference is I can play and enjoy it from the very first game session, just after creating the PC.
And yes, using the NPC rules of a low-level NPC with specific high abilities (often skills) as required by their role in the story could be a path to PF2 Mythic rules.
so play in a campaign that starts at a higher level? Its worth noting that level is a mechanical abstraction for the convenience of the system and the fact that adventurers usually start at one is more for character creation ease than anything, this is not something that actually "exists" in golation, people starting off do not default to level one and grow in 20 measurable incriments anymore than hp is a measurable metric. having more powerful abilities at lower level so you can fight more powerful things just makes you higher level.
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I'm sorry, but in a thread about what we want from mythic (yes, it says stories, but I consider it more general), saying 'why not just start at higher level' is pretty danged insulting from my point of view.
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I'm sorry, but in a thread about what we want from mythic (yes, it says stories, but I consider it more general), saying 'why not just start at higher level' is pretty danged insulting from my point of view.
explain to me the difference between a level 1 character with mithic powers, and a level 5 character? like, "I am mythic but there are hundreds of normal people better than me in every way" does not seem like something that makes sense. And The Raven Black was saying that they would like to have low level mythic to utilize incredible abilities from the start of the game... which is doable by just starting at a higher level. if mythic is at all related to power, having it start anywhere but end game doesn't make any sense to me because the powerlevel you are looking for... already exists.
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Let me take a step back, if I might. Its a serious question, I think the answer will help me to understand what you're looking for. And maybe make you define the problem more precisely
I'm unusual (certainly NOT unique, but unusual) in that I've played a whole crapton of different systems over the years. When I'm designing a home campaign I first define what I want the campaign to be and THEN choose the game engine to run it in.
You decide that you want to run a really, really mythic campaign. Pick just about any example from this thread. Jason and the Argonauts, the defeat of Rovagug, whatever.
Why would you decide to run that campaign using modified PF2 rules as opposed to tweaking your favourite rules light and/or high powered game system (Amber, Fudge, Fate, whatever)? In what way is your campaign improved by starting with a system that, at its core, is designed to give you a very structured and balanced game experience where the focus of the system is absolutely on combat (oh, it handles other things but combat is very, very definitely the focus of PF2) and a world where lots and lots of people can already do things that would often by considered mythic by many people (visiting the Gods, saving the world, slaying dragons are all things that high level adventurers can already do)
Most people do not play a bunch of different systems, and are not equally willing to play rules lite and rules dense frameworks-- I have a player who only recently found out the word 'crunchy' could be used pejoratively and feels rules lite systems are boring. Especially any given PF2e player is going to have plenty of system to engage with, without getting bored and wanting something completely different.
So its a moot point.
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Glad to see this thread devolve into exactly what I had hoped it wouldn't.
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One mythic idea i've had for awhile is.(to help bring it back to the original subject)
Cayden Cailean and Abadar have made a bet. You(the players) have been chosen to represent Cayden. The goal...Successfully pull off a heist in abadars vault.
and Low-level mythic to me, is about progress and potential. Mentors recognizing that one day you might surpass them. Or having unique abilities that make you excel in one way(incredible healing factor or durability but only average strength). Low level mythic would be like street level heroes in comic books. They are capable of incredible feats, sometimes in a very specific way stronger than someone who is overall more powerful. (I hope this makes sense)
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It's deeply weird to say "pick another system" for something for which first edition literally had rules for.