What stories do you want to do with Mythic?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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One of the most-requested features people ask to have return from 1e is something equivalent to Mythic, a mechanical framework for building up player characters to demigod-like levels and allowing them to tackle exceptionally potent threats. 1e's Mythic heroes were able to close the Worldwound, solving a nation-sized threat on the face of Golarion, which is the kind of impact many expect to match with a 2e storyline on the same tier.

Obviously, Tar-Baphon needs to get smacked down, likely as the climactic end to the edition - which opens the door to other storylines! We've heard that Iblydos (and its famed hero-gods) needs something like Mythic before PF2 ever sets foot there, while the return of Nex (which has been imminent for years now!) and all-but-certain resulting war with Geb would similarly demand something greater than level 20 heroes.

But I've obviously heard my ideas - tell me about yours!


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Epic fight against Darth Vader except he's an Alien, Predator, has powers of Wolverine and Super Saiyan oh and he can fly.

With DM using crit fail deck and Vader rolling nat 1 for his first attack and drawing a "U cut ur hed off lol" card.

That would be sooooo epic.


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I'm not that excited about mythic, myself. I always liked the idea better of epic leveling like what was present in 3.5, and to me it flows more naturally. Hit 20th level then have access to special classes that continue raising your level and grant you extra abilities...seems a more natural flow to me.

That's just me though. I am looking forward to a Tar-Baphon showdown after Tyrant's Grasp.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The *only* mythic-based kind of story I want to play is a Disney-Hercules-syle rags to riches game.

Starting at low levels so you have all the naivete and uncertainty, but with blood of gods in your veins that means you can consistently punch above your weight class.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some sort of otherworldly or exrraplanar incursion. Like a Great Old One awakening and deciding to destroy Golarion.. or even destroy the solar system or unravel reality itself! And only 20+ level heroes can even begin to deal with this sort of threat.


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I've never really understood the concept of Mythic in PF1. It's just a layer of power over normal levelling. It was working ok because the game was not tightly balanced so it was just breaking everything like most of the game options, but in PF2... I really don't see how to make it work.

I'd prefer Mythic to tell stories that can't be told with the normal system. For that, the Mythic layer needs to bring something else than just more power.

Radiant Oath

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SuperBidi wrote:

I've never really understood the concept of Mythic in PF1. It's just a layer of power over normal levelling. It was working ok because the game was not tightly balanced so it was just breaking everything like most of the game options, but in PF2... I really don't see how to make it work.

I'd prefer Mythic to tell stories that can't be told with the normal system. For that, the Mythic layer needs to bring something else than just more power.

Part of this is why I feel the PC game version of Wrath of the Righteous does Mythic better than the tabletop to a certain extent: each of the paths has more of a personality to it. Instead of being just an exemplar of your ability score, you're a literal Angel or Azata or Lich, and when you get opportunities to USE your Mythic power, the game is essentially letting you work literal miracles. The only Path that "made it" from the tabletop was Trickster, and that had some of the most personality out of the others as in addition to being an exemplar of Dexterity, but the basic conceit that "you've become aware your world is a game, and so you've figured out how to fudge the dice rolls!"

Like, what's the point of being Mythic if you can't insta-grow a gigantic freedom tree in the heart of Alushinyrra's slave market while conducting a one-Azata rampage to rescue your kidnapped dragon sidekick and shut down the Abyssal slave trade if only for a day, or travel back in time to crisis moments in history to render judgments that make the future a better place, or set the entire Rasping Rifts ablaze with holy flame?!

(The demons never do figure out how to get rid of that tree, either.)


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Like, what's the point of being Mythic if you can't insta-grow a gigantic freedom tree in the heart of Alushinyrra's slave market while conducting a one-Azata rampage to rescue your kidnapped dragon sidekick and shut down the Abyssal slave trade if only for a day, or travel back in time to crisis moments in history to render judgments that make the future a better place, or set the entire Rasping Rifts ablaze with holy flame?!

That's also what I put under Mythic. But that's just a definition of high level.

I'd find that very weird to be able to travel back in time at level 1, it would make other higher level options feel weak.


I think the parallel levelling system idea is good and the way to go (I think this could work specially well if you make it so the first mythic tier is somewhat fitting for level 1-4 play, second tier for 5 to 8 and so on), but I also think that it should focus way more on narrative power than on raw combat power. I want things like better Hero Points against non-Mythic threats, X per day abilities similar in design to Wish spells, ways to upscale combat so you can face small armies, things like that.

Edit: Hope Paizo does not mingle too much with time travel shenanigans. Time travel stories are great, but introducing time travel into something that was not meant to have it from the start usually ends up in disaster, be it a story, a setting, or a bunch of rules.

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, I'm not sure "Mythic is one of the most requested X for release" is an extremely valid conclusion that can be accepted at face value for most of the engaged members of the community, I see some discussion of it here and there but there doesn't really seem to be any kind of universal community uprising that is banging on the walls for a PF2 version of Mythic... I'm not sure there is much to really be gained in comparison to the other knobs we have available to tweak the power of PCs and some of them are already bordering on broken with heavy guidance to indicate the GM should be careful with regard to what they allow.

We already have what is, in my view, the best modern interpretation of Gestalt via Dual Class to use for this kinda thing but it doesn't end there. We can bolt on Free Archetypes, Ancestry Paragon, Relics, Intelligent Items, ABP, Artifacts, Deviant Feats, Aftermath Feats, and Pervasive Magic too. Most of these grant extra versatility without impacting the actual central gameplay loop math very much with a few edge cases that the guidance they published warns of.

If Mythic comes about... I'm not sure how they'd tackle it in any way that is very different than the tools we already have unless they decide to break the hinges off the door and start handing out numerical boosts and bonuses to actual stats, skills, attacks, damage, and increasing the number of limited-per-day/combat resources that are already provided by their Classes, Feats, and other currently available options and that... well, that would basically "simulate" the PCs simply being a higher level than they actually are or force the adventures they take up to be against similarly adjusted Mythic creatures which would end up requiring an entire new Bestiary or at the VERY least a comprehensive chapter in a new Bestiary book that breaks down how to convert any NPC into a Mythic one (hopefully in a manner that makes more sense and is less confusing than the PF1 iteration of it) as well as provide a handful of example conversions to showcase how it is done... all this together means that most likley in order for a group to really lean into this they're going to have to put out two different books with the rules in different product lines or they're going to have to devote one of their precious few yearly hardcover single-topic system-agnostic(ish) books (think the CRB, APG, SoM, G&G, etc) to make this a thing.

I hate to be a Donny Downer here but ... I can't really think of any stories that we would NEED a whole new set of balance-breaking rules (along with additional rules to unbreak the math so the stories can actually make sense) in order to tell any stories, we already have the tools available and there are even sections that discuss just simply giving extra resources to PCs should the GM want to do that for a higher power game.

Lastly, I'm not sure PF2 as a system is mature enough for this yet. We already essentially know they're booked out through at least late 2023 with announced books and none of those seem to even remotely suggest that they would fit a theme to support Mythic rules. Beyond that, nearly every single time (with I think perhaps... three exceptions going all the way back to Council of Thieves for PF1) there is a big new optional rule, theme, or "focus" book that's pushed out they end up creating either a full AP or a Module that centers on that new thing and with the recently announced Dwarven Kingdom LO book coming out we can safely assume that there is going to be one such adventure put out in the Five Kings Nation or nearby regions sometime late next year which taken together means that at the VERY earliest we could expect Mythic rules + AP support to drop would be mid to late 2024.

Anyway, this concludes my unintentional wall-of-text contribution to the thread. Absolutely don't take this as a "tsk tsk" to discourage asking for this kind of thing as that's not what it is, I merely wanted to give my perspective that it's not really even needed to pull off the kind of thing that required Mythic in PF1 and to temper expectations on the subject since we are probably at least two years out from this being a thing and that's only if they are already actively working to write and internally playtest Mythic.

Radiant Oath

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SuperBidi wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Like, what's the point of being Mythic if you can't insta-grow a gigantic freedom tree in the heart of Alushinyrra's slave market while conducting a one-Azata rampage to rescue your kidnapped dragon sidekick and shut down the Abyssal slave trade if only for a day, or travel back in time to crisis moments in history to render judgments that make the future a better place, or set the entire Rasping Rifts ablaze with holy flame?!

That's also what I put under Mythic. But that's just a definition of high level.

I'd find that very weird to be able to travel back in time at level 1, it would make other higher level options feel weak.

True, but the time travel IS under very strict and specific rules. You can't do it for just ANYTHING, only for what the Monad deems important crisis points where things REALLY went off the rails that it wants course-corrected.

That kind of illustrates the issue with this kind of Mythic action, actually: it's very dependent on the GM (or the game developers!) to facilitate it. It could almost see it operating as a high-octane version of the rules Narrative Declaration (GMed by Paizo's very own Thurston Hillman!) imported from Wrath and Glory. In that game you get Glory that can be spent to perform a "narrative declaration," altering the setting or events in a way that might advantage you, such as that orc barbarian stumbling on a rock he didn't see before, breaking his charge's momentum or something like that (this is contrasted by the Wrath the GM gets that lets them do the same against the players). When they moved to Pathfinder 2e, they allowed the players to use hero points to perform a similar function (and later introduced contrasting "villain points" for the GM's use). You could essentially have "Mythic Power" that you could spend to perform much more grandiose actions that essentially let players create set-pieces for the GM to work with?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Adding more per-day powers to up power level always gives me pause. Because of players that do this:

Them: Well, I've used my 3x per day powers. Time to camp.
Me: But it's 9 in the morning...

I always have to put them on timers.
For every day you delay, another prisoner gets sacrificed to the evil cult! (or whatever)

But I think some folks are derailing the OP.
It's not supposed to be about whether you think there should be mythic. But about what stories would be good if those rules came out.


Ched Greyfell wrote:

But I think some folks are derailing the OP.

It's not supposed to be about whether you think there should be mythic. But about what stories would be good if those rules came out.

How can we know what stories will be good if we don't have any idea about the rules.

You yourself said a story making assumptions on the rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh. Well, you know. Big, epic stories. I guess.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some people’s desire for mythic are definitely doable with free archetype or dual class, if it is about having one character who can play the role of many.

But there are some narrative breaks in power that are intrinsic to PF2 that can limit some story telling without really being about power. A flying campaign, or a campaign set in a harsh planar setting is a little tough right now. You can give access to some certain ability, but it makes a lot of options irrelevant and GMs are very much out on their own trying to rebalance things. A book that gave guidance for introducing those elements and how to have them be boosted by existing options instead of made useless could be pretty useful.

We are kind of seeing how this problem is playing out with the bloodlords AP and the issue of an Undead AP that isn’t really written to be an undead AP and thus the prevalence of negative damage on undead creature attacks becomes problematic for dealing with other undead.

So I guess a good mythic book to me would be more like the GMG with optional rules that change the way other rules work, and then some player options built to integrate those rules into the rest of the game can work.

Liberty's Edge

Killing Aroden.


The Raven Black wrote:
Killing Aroden.

You don’t think he’s dead?


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Also, I do want to gently say: folks, this thread is for discussing story ideas, not the validity of Mythic mechanics or how you personally would do them - there’s dozens of other topics for that, and I was very intentionally *not* trying to make another.


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I have this vague idea of a party gaining a spark of power from various Kaiju and at the end of the campaign helping King Mogaru put Varklops down for good.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I have a custom setting where the gods all died in a massive war, and fragments of their power were bound in their equipment, crystalized blood, and other remnants of them that were scattered across the world and planes. Those who claim them gain a piece of their divine spark, as well as being able to grant spells to followers and such, but if you're killed, others can claim your divinity as well.

Mythic is ideal for the stories in that setting, and I haven't found any substitutes to be very satisfying.


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bieng able to fight tar baphon or stop the 4 horsemen or deal with the god of the end times putting down Treerazer for good finding a way to kill the tarrasque. dealing with arch devils or demon lords or even one of the eldest hombrew greek epics obviously norse ragnarok tales etc I'm honestly surprised thier doing an ap connected so heavily to fate/destiny next year that's definitely mythic territory imo pathfinder 2e needs mythic in some way shape or form along with cr 25/26-30 monsters otherwise it will forever be incomplete


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I'd love to do something involving a full scale invasion by the Dominion, or perhaps Carcosa finally spitting Hastur out and allowing his cult to spread so rapidly that only mythic heroes can deal with it.
I'd also love to battle a fiendish power that isn't demons. Daemons perhaps, with the party being sucked into a world-ending conflict between the current Horsemen and powerful, ancient beings who fight in memory of, or seek to restore, the Bound Prince, with the party being able to stand toe-to-toe with them and beat them back from Golarion.

For me it really comes down to what level 26-30 characters would be appearing in the adventure, and working back from there, because super crazy statblocks are one of the main draws of mythic rules for me. Even if I don't use them I like to read them and dream up ideas for them.


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Let's just fight a whole bunch of Kaiju, "Destroy All Monsters" Style. Ruby Phoenix has you basically fighting *next* to a Kaiju, but I want to Suplex King Ghidorah.


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I want the Oinodaemon to bust out and cause extraplanar havoc. I also want to see adventures to the edge of reality. Places like the deep Abyss that exist beyond the realm of Qlippoth. Mostly, I want to get to extreme levels of reality warping and having the ability to navigate it


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Let's just fight a whole bunch of Kaiju, "Destroy All Monsters" Style. Ruby Phoenix has you basically fighting *next* to a Kaiju, but I want to Suplex King Ghidorah.

I dearly want something as a player option that I can best describe as "what if a Kaiju was your Patron but it made you a Bloodrager?"

Basically, I want to be a tiny, furious Mogaru, a humanoid avatar of his destructive power - or some other towering tokusatsu horror of your choice.


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An idea I've had for a while is some sort of heist in Cocytus to go and bust out that forgotten goddess Baalzebul has chained up in his living room. Maybe punch his non-existent face a bunch after he inevitably catches wind of this.


SuperBidi wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Like, what's the point of being Mythic if you can't insta-grow a gigantic freedom tree in the heart of Alushinyrra's slave market while conducting a one-Azata rampage to rescue your kidnapped dragon sidekick and shut down the Abyssal slave trade if only for a day, or travel back in time to crisis moments in history to render judgments that make the future a better place, or set the entire Rasping Rifts ablaze with holy flame?!

That's also what I put under Mythic. But that's just a definition of high level.

I'd find that very weird to be able to travel back in time at level 1, it would make other higher level options feel weak.

fwiw, a HUGE portion of Return of the Runelords revolved around time travel.

(and a large amount of bizarre things that accompanied that).

In any case, I stick to a more Mutants and Masterminds sort of approach to this (Time Traveler's Codex is probably one of the most useful books on using it in RPGs in general, fitting since MnM is pretty much a universal setting with a superhero coat of paint).


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SuperBidi wrote:

I've never really understood the concept of Mythic in PF1. It's just a layer of power over normal levelling. It was working ok because the game was not tightly balanced so it was just breaking everything like most of the game options, but in PF2... I really don't see how to make it work.

I'd prefer Mythic to tell stories that can't be told with the normal system. For that, the Mythic layer needs to bring something else than just more power.

This. "MOAR BIGGATONS/MOAR POWERS" is one facet of mythic, but it seems to me that there's far too much emphasis on this facet, when in fact we should be looking to the actual origins of the word in terms of actual "mythology."

"Mythical acts" in mythology aren't all about "who can output more firepower," they're about sometimes abstract, sometimes nonsensical actions that inspire the life philosophies and stories of entire countries. Things like Ra's sun boat, or heck, Pecos Bill lassoing the rain clouds from California. They involve as much creation and alteration of things as blowing things up.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

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D3stro 2119 wrote:


This. "MOAR BIGGATONS/MOAR POWERS" is one facet of mythic, but it seems to me that there's far too much emphasis on this facet, when in fact we should be looking to the actual origins of the word in terms of actual "mythology."

"Mythical acts" in mythology aren't all about "who can output more firepower," they're about sometimes abstract, sometimes nonsensical actions that inspire the life philosophies and stories of entire countries. Things like Ra's sun boat, or heck, Pecos Bill lassoing the rain clouds from California. They involve as much creation and alteration of things as blowing things up.

Word. I've always thought there could be some sweet mythic stories where the adventure is a cross between something like R.A. Salvatore's War of the Spider Queen and Prometheus giving mankind fire, or Raven stealing the sun, moon, and stars from Naas-sháki Yéil.

Like, what if Groetus disappeared and that was actually a Really Bad Thing, so the mythic heroes have to deal with some utterly folkloric BS as they travel through the realms of demigods, fey, and witchly patrons where, yes, there are some crazy fights, but they also have to deal with the kinds of enemies who get to write and rewrite some of reality's rules within their dominions? And what if being mythic is having a little bit of the power necessary to rewrite, or at least influence, those rules yourselves?


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Michael Sayre wrote:
D3stro 2119 wrote:


This. "MOAR BIGGATONS/MOAR POWERS" is one facet of mythic, but it seems to me that there's far too much emphasis on this facet, when in fact we should be looking to the actual origins of the word in terms of actual "mythology."

"Mythical acts" in mythology aren't all about "who can output more firepower," they're about sometimes abstract, sometimes nonsensical actions that inspire the life philosophies and stories of entire countries. Things like Ra's sun boat, or heck, Pecos Bill lassoing the rain clouds from California. They involve as much creation and alteration of things as blowing things up.

Word. I've always thought there could be some sweet mythic stories where the adventure is a cross between something like R.A. Salvatore's War of the Spider Queen and Prometheus giving mankind fire, or Raven stealing the sun, moon, and stars from Naas-sháki Yéil.

Like, what if Groetus disappeared and that was actually a Really Bad Thing, so the mythic heroes have to deal with some utterly folkloric BS as they travel through the realms of demigods, fey, and witchly patrons where, yes, there are some crazy fights, but they also have to deal with the kinds of enemies who get to write and rewrite some of reality's rules within their dominions? And what if being mythic is having a little bit of the power necessary to rewrite, or at least influence, those rules yourselves?

Excuse me while I steal this idea for an eventual Godbound campaign, please and thank you.


Michael Sayre wrote:
D3stro 2119 wrote:


This. "MOAR BIGGATONS/MOAR POWERS" is one facet of mythic, but it seems to me that there's far too much emphasis on this facet, when in fact we should be looking to the actual origins of the word in terms of actual "mythology."

"Mythical acts" in mythology aren't all about "who can output more firepower," they're about sometimes abstract, sometimes nonsensical actions that inspire the life philosophies and stories of entire countries. Things like Ra's sun boat, or heck, Pecos Bill lassoing the rain clouds from California. They involve as much creation and alteration of things as blowing things up.

Word. I've always thought there could be some sweet mythic stories where the adventure is a cross between something like R.A. Salvatore's War of the Spider Queen and Prometheus giving mankind fire, or Raven stealing the sun, moon, and stars from Naas-sháki Yéil.

Like, what if Groetus disappeared and that was actually a Really Bad Thing, so the mythic heroes have to deal with some utterly folkloric BS as they travel through the realms of demigods, fey, and witchly patrons where, yes, there are some crazy fights, but they also have to deal with the kinds of enemies who get to write and rewrite some of reality's rules within their dominions? And what if being mythic is having a little bit of the power necessary to rewrite, or at least influence, those rules yourselves?

This is cool. TBH, I think the overarching source of design problems, both in terms of mechanics and flavor, is the prevalent view of "gods" in mainstream media as... just a bunch of superpowered aliens basically. Which isn't wrong, and in fact probably could be viewed conversely in how superheroes etc. etc. are basically secular gods, but ultimately just promotes a type of design that forgets the actual point of myths and precludes creativity and actual mythical things in favor of MOAR FIYAPOWA.

That and Paizo not really knowing what mythic was ever supposed to do, or what its "tone" was supposed to be. And the subsequent tremendous lack of support.

Liberty's Edge

keftiu wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Killing Aroden.
You don’t think he’s dead?

I do. Hence Mythic.

Liberty's Edge

Michael Sayre wrote:
D3stro 2119 wrote:


This. "MOAR BIGGATONS/MOAR POWERS" is one facet of mythic, but it seems to me that there's far too much emphasis on this facet, when in fact we should be looking to the actual origins of the word in terms of actual "mythology."

"Mythical acts" in mythology aren't all about "who can output more firepower," they're about sometimes abstract, sometimes nonsensical actions that inspire the life philosophies and stories of entire countries. Things like Ra's sun boat, or heck, Pecos Bill lassoing the rain clouds from California. They involve as much creation and alteration of things as blowing things up.

Word. I've always thought there could be some sweet mythic stories where the adventure is a cross between something like R.A. Salvatore's War of the Spider Queen and Prometheus giving mankind fire, or Raven stealing the sun, moon, and stars from Naas-sháki Yéil.

Like, what if Groetus disappeared and that was actually a Really Bad Thing, so the mythic heroes have to deal with some utterly folkloric BS as they travel through the realms of demigods, fey, and witchly patrons where, yes, there are some crazy fights, but they also have to deal with the kinds of enemies who get to write and rewrite some of reality's rules within their dominions? And what if being mythic is having a little bit of the power necessary to rewrite, or at least influence, those rules yourselves?

Reminds me very fondly of a ton of things I love (and imagined) in a lot of TTRPG. Exalted being an easy example (the Fae mostly, but some concepts of the Sidereals too). Mage too.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I played in a home campaign years ago where we all played Lawful Evil worshipers of a dead god. In this campaign the gods got power from their worshipers. There'd been a holy war, and all our god's followers had been killed but us... and he died. Starved, basically.
Our mission was to bring our deity back.

We didn't end up finishing the campaign, sadly. But it sounds like a great premise for a mythic game.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:
D3stro 2119 wrote:


This. "MOAR BIGGATONS/MOAR POWERS" is one facet of mythic, but it seems to me that there's far too much emphasis on this facet, when in fact we should be looking to the actual origins of the word in terms of actual "mythology."

"Mythical acts" in mythology aren't all about "who can output more firepower," they're about sometimes abstract, sometimes nonsensical actions that inspire the life philosophies and stories of entire countries. Things like Ra's sun boat, or heck, Pecos Bill lassoing the rain clouds from California. They involve as much creation and alteration of things as blowing things up.

Word. I've always thought there could be some sweet mythic stories where the adventure is a cross between something like R.A. Salvatore's War of the Spider Queen and Prometheus giving mankind fire, or Raven stealing the sun, moon, and stars from Naas-sháki Yéil.

Like, what if Groetus disappeared and that was actually a Really Bad Thing, so the mythic heroes have to deal with some utterly folkloric BS as they travel through the realms of demigods, fey, and witchly patrons where, yes, there are some crazy fights, but they also have to deal with the kinds of enemies who get to write and rewrite some of reality's rules within their dominions? And what if being mythic is having a little bit of the power necessary to rewrite, or at least influence, those rules yourselves?

Yes, something about Mythic characters make them rise above and beyond the basic normal 'level' of things. Frequently meaning that individual mythic participants are 'bound' to the story. There is something integral about who they are that makes them the Key to unlocking a certain part of the story.

To me, honestly I see this potentially best handled by 'Mythic Boons' being something tied to the adventure, and being something akin to a cross between PFS Boons, and PF1 Traits. Certain boons might reveal a potential 'resolution' to an encounter via a card, that has some 'trigger' that has to be achieved to overcome the encounter. In the party, there might be more than one mythic boon that might be relevant, giving the party the potential chance to choose which way they want to resolve it. But such solutions would be exceptional and of note. But that ability wouldn't be something the character Always have. It is something triggered by the mythic circumstances.

So a Mythic Adventure would be set for characters of certain level, and would include a set of Mythic Boons that would likely be sorted in part by some traits that might include various mythic paths, or could be linked to mythic patrons, or just tied to various otherwise seemingly mundane character links (family heritages, friendships, etc.)

Maybe the boon could manifest as a card that has a top story, and on the back, which stays hidden until activated by an encounter, the GM tells them to turn it over and it explains an encounter ability they get for that encounter.

These sorts of Mythic encounters might take place in post 20 play with epic levels, but it wouldn't have to be limited to it.

You could have (although yes, it might seems a little Trope-like), having champions/children/demi-gods representing Pharasma, Torag, Sarenrae, and Asmodeus finding themselves forced into working together to try to stop some splintered avatar child of Rovagug that is trying sow destruction with a goal to eventually release its parent..

AP "StarStone High"... looking down in shame... as I realize that I actually wrote that down.

Ok, more seriously, such stories wouldn't have to be as seriously cartoonish, to utilize such mythic elements with things that tie specific heroes to specific encounters enabling them to play extreme roles in specific encounters. Such mythic boons being present might also enable the characters to overcome more extreme encounters, as their mythic boon would likely provide an extreme buff or extreme debuff once the triggering situation is achieved.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

One appeal of mythic to me is the notion of doing something radically out of bounds of normal without necessarily reaching into the same space as simply being high level.

I really like the examples up thread of Pecos Bill or Prometheus, in the sense that these are fantastical stories that exist beyond the normal curve of a TTRPG, but also don't necessarily lean into that power curve either. PF1 and 2 both directly tie how weird you can get to how strong you are and to me part of the appeal of mythic is stepping away from that linear correlation.

Having a character who can do weird things, mess with reality, or perform superhuman feats of ability, without necessarily pegging that to a specific point on a level chart, rather it's just something they can do and having a character who can do those things without simply being at the top of the power curve.

Like a lot of mythic abilities (especially ones related more to interacting with the world) could hypothetically be replicated by being a sufficiently high level wizard, but a huge part of the appeal comes from not necessarily having to be a sufficiently high level wizard in the first place.


So Mythic PF = TOON RPG?
:-)

I wouldn't mind some narrative power given to the players (via the mythic nature of their PCs). We might lose some rigor, but it'd be an optional addition anyway xcept maybe one AP, or so I'd think.

Hero Points already dip into that realm, and I could see more advanced iterations of that.

--
As for stories, I've long wanted to run an extensive campaign using favorite PCs of the players involved in stopping/slowing the destruction of the multiverse so facing off against all the most chaotic-insane entities, i.e. Cthulhu. And then afterward they'd (re)construct the world(s), becoming the new deities (or added to those that survived).
Note this will never happen given the competing options and my limited lifespan, but one can dream. And I wouldn't want to see that happen to Golarion, even on a mere planetary scale!

I suppose it might be nice to defeat at least one monumental enemy along the scale of the Dominion of the Black. There'd remain tons more anyway (and something would eventually fill its niches), but lets chalk one down victory for civilization which only occupies a fragile shell on a doomed prison planet; evil incarnate both above, below, and within.


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I imagine mythic as a free archetype variant that opens up access to exclusive mythic archetypes. Maybe you only get them every four levels so you could only ever get 5 mythic feats including your dedication. This could maybe open up the feats to being more substantial in their effects. Just spit balling though


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I would absolutely eat up a Mythic AP set in Iblydos, doing the very classic Greek Mythology angle on things - but with that Pathfinder flair! Maybe you were a humble shepherd, a scholar from one of the great poleis, or perhaps even a “monster” from the wilds!

Even better if we can see some of the other established hero-gods, like Iapholi (who deserves true divinity, IMO) and Chinostes (who maybe we mercy-kill, or maybe we ally with?), I’d be giddy. I’m also *deeply* curious what connection, if any, there is between Iblydan and Xopatli hero-gods - do you think any have ever met?

Throw it together with a book that adds playable Minotaurs and Stheno, and I think folks would eat it up!


Having read the ideas here, I propose that the system isn't necessarily supposed to be "toon" (although that's a perfectly appropriate concept for "trickster gods" and such), it's more like being able to accomplish tremendous and monumental, that is, mythical things in scale.

Generally put more emphasis on creation and alteration than firepower.

This isn't even limited to mythic or super-high-level rulesets. Letting "normal" play have these things is great too and would greatly aid the pre-existing balance problems inherent in PF.

Like, I have a collection of "God" rpgs, but taking a page from certain gamelines would be real cool.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
keftiu wrote:

I would absolutely eat up a Mythic AP set in Iblydos, doing the very classic Greek Mythology angle on things - but with that Pathfinder flair! Maybe you were a humble shepherd, a scholar from one of the great poleis, or perhaps even a “monster” from the wilds!

Even better if we can see some of the other established hero-gods, like Iapholi (who deserves true divinity, IMO) and Chinostes (who maybe we mercy-kill, or maybe we ally with?), I’d be giddy. I’m also *deeply* curious what connection, if any, there is between Iblydan and Xopatli hero-gods - do you think any have ever met?

Throw it together with a book that adds playable Minotaurs and Stheno, and I think folks would eat it up!

This is literally at the top of my wishlist.


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willfromamerica wrote:
keftiu wrote:

I would absolutely eat up a Mythic AP set in Iblydos, doing the very classic Greek Mythology angle on things - but with that Pathfinder flair! Maybe you were a humble shepherd, a scholar from one of the great poleis, or perhaps even a “monster” from the wilds!

Even better if we can see some of the other established hero-gods, like Iapholi (who deserves true divinity, IMO) and Chinostes (who maybe we mercy-kill, or maybe we ally with?), I’d be giddy. I’m also *deeply* curious what connection, if any, there is between Iblydan and Xopatli hero-gods - do you think any have ever met?

Throw it together with a book that adds playable Minotaurs and Stheno, and I think folks would eat it up!

This is literally at the top of my wishlist.

It's not quite the top of mine (a divine book with Inquisition and Shaman + a Lost Omens: Arcadia/Fallen Razatlan with playable Wyrwoods is my pie-in-the-sky dream), but playable Minotaurs are something I'm desperate for, and I'd love a Hellenistic romp. I ran a campaign in a different d20 system years ago now where my players ran around post-Alexander Egypt as a bunch of awesome, heroic weirdos; a living bronze statue of one of the Furies, a harpy-blooded pirate queen, an Amazon princess-Paladin, and a satyress Bard sworn to Dionysos... good times!


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
keftiu wrote:

I would absolutely eat up a Mythic AP set in Iblydos, doing the very classic Greek Mythology angle on things - but with that Pathfinder flair! Maybe you were a humble shepherd, a scholar from one of the great poleis, or perhaps even a “monster” from the wilds!

Even better if we can see some of the other established hero-gods, like Iapholi (who deserves true divinity, IMO) and Chinostes (who maybe we mercy-kill, or maybe we ally with?), I’d be giddy. I’m also *deeply* curious what connection, if any, there is between Iblydan and Xopatli hero-gods - do you think any have ever met?

Throw it together with a book that adds playable Minotaurs and Stheno, and I think folks would eat it up!

We would absolutely love that. Perhaps maybe throw in a satyr/faun ancestry as well.

Silver Crusade

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I'll cast a dissenting vote here. I think Mythic is pretty much a mistaken concept and certainly the PF1 implementation (and the D&D Epic implementation) were seriously, uh, flawed (to phrase it very, very politely).

20th level play already feels pretty darn mythic to me. In Age of Ashes a character was head locking the avatar of a dragon God. How is that anything other than Mythic?

If I wanted to run a mythic campaign I'd take a fairly simple approach

1) Cap the world in general at a significantly lower level than 20. Maybe level 10 or 15 or so. As an example, we cap the world at level 10. That means the highest non mythic characters in the world are level 10, the toughest monsters are CR 14 or so, etc.

2) Then mythic characters get to break that barrier. In a world where everybody else is limited to level 10, your level 11 to 20 character is going to be seriously mythic. Some of that is just numbers (your demi-god will literally be able to take on a small army of the most powerful heroes in the world) but a greater deal is that they'll just have access to world breaking powers (eg they can teleport, they have true seeing, they can scry on other people, etc).

The combination of power disparity and access to unique powers should make the characters feel very mythic.

As to adventures, there are two basic choices. One is where the PCs are literally fighting armies and kingdoms on their own, where the sheer weight of numbers they're opposing starts to threaten them. And then there is the old standby of fighting "mythic" opponents. Statwise, an adventure may look fairly like a normal L12 adventure. But the flavour, the background, will be mythic. They're not fighting some random dragon, they're fighting the mother of all Red Dragons. They're not fighting a giant, they're fighting a demi god (who happens to have the stats of a L16 giant).

A lot of real world myths could fairly easily be run in such a world using just basic Pathfinder rules (with maybe a tweak or two). Thor against the Frost Giants? The Trojan War? Easy. And I think "can play out myths" is a pretty good definition of mythic.

If I was running this campaign, I'd start the characters at the max non mythic level minus maybe 1 or 2. They get a feel for how kick ass in world they are (so they internalize the fact that as level 8 characters they're very near the top of the power curve). Then they become mythic and advance at whatever pace seems normal. Heck, one could even steal a moderate amount of set pieces from various Adventure Paths, some of which already seem pretty mythic to me (eg, book 3 of the Ruby Phoenix Tournament is already pretty mythic)


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To me, Mythic should exist to keep a feeling of progression past 20, to prevent the game from feeling "over" while you enjoy playing a level 20 character. The rewards should feel worthwhile, desired by someone at level 20, without throwing balance out the window. Growth might tend toward the broad, rather than deep. Interesting and powerful combos should be available, but higher numbers for the sake of higher numbers would be boring, and toppling the action economy should absolutely be avoided.

Basically, you want something to keep playing for an adventure or two at level 20, but not something so iconic and character defining that you have to keep playing even more to experience the joy of THAT.

Liberty's Edge

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I fear it is exceptionally difficult to devise Mythic abilities that affect the PCs' environment in legend-worthy ways and that cannot be abused / weaponized in granting higher-level story-affecting or combat-affecting effects.

And then why not just play higher level ?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It really feels like the key is in granting narratively derived powers over narrative elements of the game. Meaning that it would best be implemented as something collaboratively arrived at with the GM. The other big issue here is that it inherently lends itself more to stories with a central protagonist rather than a whole party of adventurers. Not that collaborative mythic story telling and game playing is not possible, but I think it requires collaboration at the session 0 level of campaign building that can easily cause strife at the table if not handled well.

Having run Wrath of the Righteous through book 3…until the mythic elements of game broke everything down to the point that either the more powerful mythic enemies should have just crushed the PCs, but because they weren’t going to do that, by the time it got close to equal footing, the PCs were combining mythical powers together to unimaginably impossible to challenge.

A big part of this was my fault, in letting the players pick their mythic powers for the sake of their own character ideas rather than for story purposes, but that really was all left heavily on the GMs shoulders. We had 2 of our long term players fall out of the game and end up getting into some very heated arguments with the other players, and all of that pretty much ended that entire play group’s time together as one group.

PF2, being so strictly balanced mechanically and narratively (with what levels players can take on specific kinds of challenges) will make this complicated to do as a rule set and not just a specific AP with the right options built into campaign to fit the narrative needs of that story, which I think would be the best way for it to be done.


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I mean the problem raised here is only really a problem under the view that RPG advancement should just be punching things better.

A better view would be focusing on the scalpel, not necessarily the hammer. Or on more abstract yet concrete things like creation.

But of course, all this cycles back to the interplay being high/epic level play and "mythic." To me, the two aren't the same and would require different approaches.


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Again, folks - I’d prefer if mechanical speculation around Mythic went in any of the discussions actually *about* that.

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