Why don't we just end the Impulses?


Kineticist Class

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I was analyzing here what Impulses are mechanically and why in practice they end up being an attempt to "reinvent the wheel" that in the end will only bring many more problems than solutions.

Because let's go. Comparing Impulses and Focus Cantrips:

  • Impulses are magics that have the dashes concentration and manipulate.
  • Focus Cantrips are spells that can have both somatic (manipulate) and verbal (concentration) traits (usually they have both, but it is not mandatory, and can be adjusted according to the concept and need of each spell).

  • Impulses can be used at will
  • Focus Cantrips can be used at will

  • Impulses that use saves use your class DC
  • Focus Cantrips that use saves use their tradition magic DC

  • Impulses usually require feats to be acquired
  • Focus Cantrips usually require feats to be acquired

    If we pay attention, in practice, Impulses and Focus Cantrips are practically the same thing, but Impulses, because they are not completely spells, do not interact well with other mechanics such as various items and archetypes and the only technical advantage they really give are Overflows, which honestly it's something that can very well be integrated into focus spells in the same way as with Oracle, Psychic and Magus focus spells that have their own peculiarities like Cursebound, Amps, Conflux that make small mechanical changes to how the spells focus specific to these classes must operate.

    So why not just do the same thing with Impulses?
    Impulses could simply become conventional focus spells with the option for some of them to have the Overflow trait to be able to cast some of these focus spells without using focus points. So:

  • It would not be necessary to waste space in the book explaining what Impulses are and how they work, they would simply follow the well-established and tested mechanics of focus spells.
  • Spells could seamlessly integrate with items and prestige classes that interact with focus spells.
  • It becomes simple and easy to remove the manipulate trait from spells where it becomes a problem.
  • Traditionally magical traditions DC are more flexible than class ones. In the case of the kineticist it would probably be the primal magic DC, which would allow him to have a good integration with archetypes that cast primal magic (at least they would share the proficiency).
  • Opens a whole new range of possibilities. For example, Impulses that are currently Overflow could have the option of either being Overflow or using focus points, allowing the player to choose in each situation whether it is better to cast using a focus point and use their action for something else or simply not lose a spell that is being sustained, or casting with Overflow even because you are out of focus points or want to save it for a more important/specific situation. Or it could also operate as a kind of Amps. If designers still feel that consuming an extra action doesn't justify the power level of a focus spell that uses focus point for example, they could add an Amp line where the data would be incremented or some new effect would be added/changed. if the player chooses to use a focus point instead of Overflow.

    With the removal of Boosts in favor of Focus Cantrips, Elemental Blast could change as well into something that integrates better with items and martial archetypes that rely on pure Strikes and cannot be used when the Strike is a subordinate action.
    In this case I see two options that could be interesting:

  • Elemental Blast could become a Stance. And just like with several other stances (especially the monk ones) the kineticist would choose an element and would be able to execute Strikes with this element in the same way as it is today with Elemental Blast, but it would in fact be an unarmed attack and not a special action unable to interact with almost anything else outside the class. Maybe the designer thinks that an instance operating in this way allowing the free switching of melee <-> range attacks, he could require the kineticist to be required to spend an action to switch attack mode, and could even make it a free action through a feat or class ability (as with the champion's Divine Ally when it provides the option to add the throwing rune ability to the weapon without costing the player a property rune). In this way, the problem of excessive attacks of opportunity would be solved at the same time that the class would better integrate with the rest of the game.
  • The other option would be to turn Elemental Blasts into Focus Cantrips with attack trait and not to spoil the action economy these would be one-action with no bonus and maybe with lower damage dice (1d4 for fire and air, 1d6 for water and earth) but would have Heightened (+1) and could use Shadow Signet in place of handwraps + runes. Making the kineticist 100% caster and allowing him to have legendary proficiency (which would help the other spells in the process)


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    I don't like the idea of bringing focus cantrips into this, since I don't think the Kineticist should interact with the Focus mechanic at all (short of multiclassing).

    What this sort of shows is that impulses probably need to be further mechanically differentiated from focus cantrips.


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    Focus cantrips with focus point metamagic was my pet concept for kineticist for a long time. Then burn was just spending HP when out of focus points. (The idea being that the metamagic served as infusions to get your cones or explosions and what not).

    That said, I think focus spells should be an all-in, and the class would end up being a martial using spell mechanics that way, and not worry about strikes at all. Your elemental blast is just a focus cantrip, etc. I'm not in favor of mixing focus spells with strikes/stances/etc if it can be avoided.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    I don't like the idea of bringing focus cantrips into this, since I don't think the Kineticist should interact with the Focus mechanic at all (short of multiclassing).

    Strictly speaking, focus cantrips don't actually interact with the focus mechanic either. It's just a slightly confusing name Paizo picked for class-specific cantrips.

    ... I'm not sure what the OP's suggestion actually does to improve the class though, just feels like change for the sake of change. Keeping Kineticists feeling a little unique is a good thing though, so not a huge fan.


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    PossibleCabbage wrote:

    I don't like the idea of bringing focus cantrips into this, since I don't think the Kineticist should interact with the Focus mechanic at all (short of multiclassing).

    What this sort of shows is that impulses probably need to be further mechanically differentiated from focus cantrips.

    Focus cantrips don't interact with focus points at all. It's mostly a way of saying "Class-specific cantrip"

    Also, the major difference between impulses and focus cantrips is that impulses require having a gathered element.


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    Myself, I'd prefer if impulses 'picked a lane', as in either go all in on being spells or go all in on being more physical effects. Having them with a foot in each just leads to weird results. The whole extra action [gather] and having the equivalent to casting components [concentrate and manipulate traits] for every action, even the basic blasts, just makes them worse than either one and makes it so they don't play well with other parts of the game.


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    YuriP wrote:
    Elemental Blast could become a Stance.

    That would be terrible as stances can only be used in combat and are a constant action tax for each encounter.


    Squiggit wrote:
    ... I'm not sure what the OP's suggestion actually does to improve the class though, just feels like change for the sake of change. Keeping Kineticists feeling a little unique is a good thing though, so not a huge fan.

    It wouldn't be change for the sake of change. It's more of a critique of the way Impulses are in essence.

    Currently they are mechanically "focus cantrips with requirement to have your gathered element in hand" and the Overflow trait is basically "after using an ability with this trait, you lose your gathered element".

    So they in practice don't bring any really new mechanics and still get in the way. Because Impulses look like Spells, behave like Spells, and are obtainable like many of the Focus Spells. But they are not Spells and therefore do not integrate properly with the game.

    This sucks for a lot of things, but it's especially bad for archetypes. For example, if you take a Fighter Archetype, you can't benefit from most talents, because in the end even Elemental Blast isn't a pure Strike.
    Or if you try to get a spellcaster archetic, like a Druid, to complete your Fire Kineticist with Combustion and better integration with nature, in the end you won't be integrating anything, because both your proficiency with primal lore, as your caster attribute are completely separate from your Impulses.
    Or if you try to take an innate spell from some ancestry, it will not have any integration with the kineticist, for example, if you take First World Magic or Otherworldly Magic, it will not integrate with the class at all.

    So just because it has a mechanic with a different name, but that does the same thing as the other magic mechanics, the class is already in a situation where it is completely isolated from integrating with any combat or mystical archetype, it won't even integrate correctly.

    And this is just an example but the class will have a weird interaction with pretty much anything related to Strike or Spell and this will almost certainly create all sorts of questionable interactions between abilities or items, causing many doubts like "Can my kineticist use a Staff of Fire?" become something extremely constant and doubtful for much of the game.

    And in the end it's for nothing! There is no reason for this mechanic to be separated, as it is already extremely similar to an existing mechanic that works very well, and which could easily be adapted to meet the same requirements as the Impulses with less problems.

    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    What this sort of shows is that impulses probably need to be further mechanically differentiated from focus cantrips.

    Yes, it would be an alternative. But I don't think Paizo will change the entire mechanics of Impulses to behave like something completely new and unheard of between playtest and release.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    YuriP wrote:
    And in the end it's for nothing!

    Don't really agree. Impulses being their own thing is the point. Elemental Blast isn't some accident Paizo stumbled into without realizing it. The mechanics are pretty clear.

    Changing it doesn't really solve any of the class' actual issues either.


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Ways that impulses are very different then spells:

    All impulses are silent. You can use them when you are silenced. You can’t cast the spell message without everyone in a decent sized area knowing you cast a spell, without dropping feats. Can your impulses be identified? They can’t be counterspelled, although they can probably be targeted with dispel magic. There are still gestures, so you can’t really hide and use impulses, especially with elements swirling around you, but they are only manipulate actions, not as restrictive as somatic components.

    The on/off feature of gather element is more like panache than anything else, a martial ability, and yet is different because it is tied to specific elements. This is a much cooler way of handling switching between different elements than trying to build it, and it’s action cost, into the casting of a spell.

    Focus cantrips are focus spells. They can just be cast without using focus points. That is the game space and the narrative space they occupy. Giving a class focus cantrips and not focus spells feels weird mechanically and narratively. Shifting kineticist abilities onto focus spells feels like it is puddling into about 5 other class’ design space.
    It feels like that route might as well be an archetype you can slide over monks or druids like the elementalist.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Reasons I can think of that impulses aren't just focus cantrips;

    They (in theory) allow for more damage in exchange for taking up more actions, and allows the actions to be split up, akin to spell strike.

    They give the fantasy that you aren't a caster in the traditional sense, muttering incantations and waving your hands around - having them be impulses makes them feel closer to the spell like abilities of yore.

    Having a trait associated specifically with gather element makes things a lot smoother than having to go through different rules for each cantrip.

    Maybe not a plus but something that might intentional is not giving kineticist a spell dc/attack. Making them feel more martial in not being able to auto scale cantrips/etc could be part of the balance of the class.


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    Unicore wrote:
    All impulses are silent. You can use them when you are silenced. You can’t cast the spell message without everyone in a decent sized area knowing you cast a spell, without dropping feats. Can your impulses be identified? They can’t be counterspelled, although they can probably be targeted with dispel magic. There are still gestures, so you can’t really hide and use impulses, especially with elements swirling around you, but they are only manipulate actions, not as restrictive as somatic components.

    This is no big deal. It's something that already happens frequently with the spellcasting classes, the vast majority already declare that they don't need material components in their description, the bards have the ability to substitute verbal components for the instrument and the psychics conjure basically the same way as the kineticist.

    And they can already be countered, even blasts! And already can't counterspell focus spells/cantrips easily due requirements. Follow the kineticist explanation about how Impulses works similar to spells:
    Quote:
    Impulses are magical, but they aren’t spells. However, abilities that restrict you from casting spells (such as being polymorphed into a battle form) or protect against spells (such as globe of invulnerability or a creature’s bonus to saves against spells) also apply to impulses. Any impulse you use is your level, even if the feat or impulse’s level is lower than yours. For instance, if you were 5th level, your Elemental Blast would be 5th level (and its counteract level would be 3rd level), even though you gained the action at 1st level. Similarly to spells, many impulses get more powerful as you go up in level. In these cases, the impulse ends with a “Level” entry. This either lists the levels at which the impulse gets an upgrade, or has an entry with a plus sign that describes a benefit that increases on a regular basis. For instance, a 1st-level impulse with a “Level (+3)” entry would get stronger at 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th levels. Some impulses can be sustained, as the Sustain a Spell action (Core Rulebook 304).

    In the end they suffer from same limitations from spells (except silence) at sametime can't receive any benefit from any feat or ability that applies to "Cast a Spell" in the end being more restricted than Focus Cantrips for example that can normaly benefit from Reach Spell while Impulses can't. It's worse of both worlds.

    Unicore wrote:
    The on/off feature of gather element is more like panache than anything else, a martial ability, and yet is different because it is tied to specific elements. This is a much cooler way of handling switching between different elements than trying to build it, and it’s action cost, into the casting of a spell.

    I also disagree here.

    The best comparison they've ever made of the Gather Element is that it's similar to draw weapon. It also doesn't work as a martial ability, mainly because of the manipulate and primal traits in it.
    That said I don't care about it too much because draw a weapon is already an manipulate. My problem is with Elemental Blast being a magical ability, with manipulate and concentration trait and blocking possible others archetypes, items and feats to interact with it.
    That's why for me he had to get out of this weird middle ground where he takes all the problems of not being a pure and simple Strike and all the problems of being a spell too.
    Again, it's the worst of both worlds. That's why I'm suggesting to the designers either, turn them all at once into a Strike or turn it all at once into a spell, in the end, no matter how "different" it looks this way, the current way ends up being mechanically the worst solution.

    Unicore wrote:
    Focus cantrips are focus spells. They can just be cast without using focus points. That is the game space and the narrative space they occupy. Giving a class focus cantrips and not focus spells feels weird mechanically and narratively. Shifting kineticist abilities onto focus spells feels like it is puddling into about 5 other class’ design space.

    In the same way that Impulses are already like Focus Cantrips with Gather Element as a requirement. It no longer changes the design space to take this and call it Impulses, in practice this is how Impulses already work.

    About not having a focus point, I didn't propose that, quite the contrary, in order not to kill the at-will focus points can be used in a similar way to Amps, either increasing the power of a spell, or saving an action being used instead from Overflow, or both. If Focus Cantrips are used, there is simply room for both!

    Unicore wrote:
    It feels like that route might as well be an archetype you can slide over monks or druids like the elementalist.

    Honestly, that's just bad!

    In the end this is just forcing the player to be more limited with their choices. Because of this Impulse mechanic for example, a player can't harness his kinetic power and multiclass the Magus and apply Spellstrike with him when it can even be done with Psychics!
    You just end up forcing the default chassis on players. Thanks to Impulses, kineticists are restricted to Profession Archetypes. This sure isn't fun!


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    If they were Cantrip Spells there'd be a hard cap on the damage they could do because of how some abilities interact with spells, abilities the Kineticist won't necessarily have, i.e. Spellstrike. Separating Impulses allows the Kineticist to have its own playground, one not as vulnerable to shenanigans.


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    Gaulin wrote:

    Reasons I can think of that impulses aren't just focus cantrips;

    They (in theory) allow for more damage in exchange for taking up more actions, and allows the actions to be split up, akin to spell strike.

    That still doesn't justify trying to create a whole mechanic just for them. And Spellstrike in practice is something different, I can't explain it well, but it's not like he tries to reinvent the wheel, he just takes the Spells and Strikes and puts them together in a single maneuver. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Gaulin wrote:
    They give the fantasy that you aren't a caster in the traditional sense, muttering incantations and waving your hands around - having them be impulses makes them feel closer to the spell like abilities of yore.

    Neither do Psychics, this is no excuse to try to reinvent the wheel.

    Gaulin wrote:
    Having a trait associated specifically with gather element makes things a lot smoother than having to go through different rules for each cantrip.

    This is the argument that makes the most sense here for the sake of simplicity. But nothing prevents the Impulse trait from simply altering Focus Cantrip in the same way that Cursebound already operates on Oracle.

    In fact, switching to Focus Cantrips and using the Impulse trait as a modifier would even help with understanding, as it would reduce all that complex description where even some players ignored the details like the fact that all Impulses embed manipulate and concentration inside it for being so great.
    Then his description could become something as simple as "Spells with this trait require that you have gathered the element associated with it and still have it under control (at hand)"

    Gaulin wrote:
    Maybe not a plus but something that might intentional is not giving kineticist a spell dc/attack. Making them feel more martial in not being able to auto scale cantrips/etc could be part of the balance of the class.

    OK, but this creates difficulties and limitation of integrations with other archetypes. Also thematically and mechanically using primal tradition DC makes more sense since all Impulses are already primal.

    Castilliano wrote:
    If they were Cantrip Spells there'd be a hard cap on the damage they could do because of how some abilities interact with spells, abilities the Kineticist won't necessarily have, i.e. Spellstrike. Separating Impulses allows the Kineticist to have its own playground, one not as vulnerable to shenanigans.

    But this also kills the class's ability to customize by making it not interact with other archetypes. Also, Impulses already not so strong, at most it can be said that they are as strong as normal cantrip or in the best cases as psy-cantrips and a magus already can use psy-cantrips with Spellstrike, when it have the psychic dedication, including amps.


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    I mean, is it really that complicated? The crux of your argument seems to be that it's needless complexity but it doesn't seem that complicated to me, nor anyone else I've presented the class to.


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    It's not so much a matter of complication, it's more of redundancy. That's why he repeats the phrase "reinvent the wheel" so much. But this is secondary to me, the main objective is that removing impulses, in addition to simplifying, also removes a series of little problems that impulses bring without bringing any clear benefit that justifies their existence, in this way:

  • It would facilitate integration with archetypes and feats from outside the class.
  • I would use a well-tested mechanic instead of risking having to deal with all the shenanigans that create a new mechanic because it's not like it brought anything really new to the character.
  • It would already facilitate the resolution of small problems that will require that mechanics that already exist in Spells be re-implemented (such as removing the manipulate trait from Elemental Blast, Element Shield and Deflecting Wave) without needing another new mechanic which runs the risk of causing shenanigans or simply not interacting well with other pre-existing mechanics


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    Unicore wrote:

    Ways that impulses are very different then spells:

    All impulses are silent. You can use them when you are silenced. You can’t cast the spell message without everyone in a decent sized area knowing you cast a spell, without dropping feats. Can your impulses be identified? They can’t be counterspelled, although they can probably be targeted with dispel magic. There are still gestures, so you can’t really hide and use impulses, especially with elements swirling around you, but they are only manipulate actions, not as restrictive as somatic components.

    The on/off feature of gather element is more like panache than anything else, a martial ability, and yet is different because it is tied to specific elements. This is a much cooler way of handling switching between different elements than trying to build it, and it’s action cost, into the casting of a spell.

    Focus cantrips are focus spells. They can just be cast without using focus points. That is the game space and the narrative space they occupy. Giving a class focus cantrips and not focus spells feels weird mechanically and narratively. Shifting kineticist abilities onto focus spells feels like it is puddling into about 5 other class’ design space.
    It feels like that route might as well be an archetype you can slide over monks or druids like the elementalist.

    Material Components are more restrictive, as you need a Free Hand to perform Material Components, whereas Somatic Components do not. Technically speaking, if an Impulse has a Material component, you need at least 1 Free Hand to use it. Probably not an issue with most Kineticists, but if they have one hand occupied with Gather Element, and another with an item, for example, they couldn't use that particular Impulse without discarding the element or the item to do so. But I highly doubt Impulses work this way. (It would also serve a neat way to require both hands for a given Impulse, especially if the effect is a stronger one, but that's for another thread.)

    While it's easier than Panache, I don't think the claim that it's very similar to spellcasting is baseless, given that changing the effect for an action sounds on-par with "sustaining" or "concentrating" an effect for an action. There are feats and spells that let you change things with actions, and it's really no different from those options, most of which are available to spellcasters primarily.

    The only reason Focus Spells might sound like a bad idea is because of the simple factor that you're still limited to 3 Focus Spells per encounter with little to no way of recovering them either in-combat or out-of-combat. There's Desperate Prayer from Champion, but that's 1/day, and requires a specific MCD with a feat or two to do so (among other investments). Otherwise? I think Kineticist being the "Focus" Martial would be pretty thematic. In addition, this could be an opportunity to introduce Burn as a mechanic, where they sacrifice HP to cast a Focus "Spell" instead.

    In addition, this whole line of "They're magical, but not spellcasters, so giving them Spellcaster mechanics makes no sense" seems absurd when you consider that their magic, which is effectively Evocation on Steroids, is far more magical than some guy with an instrument (or their vocal chords) singing/dancing/playing/whatever to make people super ultra powerful in-combat. We can have that as a Focus "Spell," but not a literal evocation of elements at your fingertips? Feels far more immersion-breaking with that contrast in mind.


    I find the idea that everything should be focus spells and focus cantrips overly restrictive and hindering on potential ideas. There are a lot of things wrong with Impulses, but them not being focus spells/cantrips is not one of those things. Are they in a weird spot where they cannot interact with anything well? Yeah. But that is not solved by making them focus cantrip but by being clearer on what they are.

    If we go by the original version (which many people liked) they are spell-like, take a standard action, cost HP or action based on their power, scaled like a spell, and could trigger certain abilities as if they were weapons.

    Converting that to PF2 is actually quite easy. Spell-like is effectively just innate spells with at will spell-like being pretty much innate cantrips. Innate cantrip solves the issue of spell slots (don't need them), they solve the issue of focus spells (don't need focus), they solve the issue of heightening (auto heightened), they are still spells and thus can be used for anything that requires spells. Because they are spells, they would not need runes or anything, they would just require that Paizo give them a good damage scale, it really isn't that hard for them to do so.

    The matter of fitting for strikes is as simple as Elemental Blasts telling you that "this spell counts as a ranged weapon strike for the purposes of other abilities". That would immediately let it work with things like Point-blank shot and anything that requires a ranged strike. Elemental weapon would serve as the way to get it to work for other things.

    Want to make gather more interesting? Make it so that instead of overflow deleting the element (which makes no sense) it instead gets a power up. An infusion that was "Cone impulse: 1 action, your next elemental blast is a 30ft cone" could have the text "Overflow (if you gathered energy this turn): The size of the cone increases to 60ft.". Imagine a bunch of impulse like that were you could mix and match and make full use of the 3-action system.

    *************************

    * P.S. You can make burn a way to gather as a free action at the cost of reducing your max HP equal to your level until you rest. Ex:

    Burn wrote:

    You may gather as a free action by getting Burned 1, if you already have burn increase its value instead.

    Burned: Forcefully using your element strains your body. Burned always includes a value. You lose a number of Hit Points and maximum Hit Points equal to your level times the burned value. Losing these hit points doesn't count as taking damage.

    Each time you have a full night's rest, your burned value becomes 0. This increases your maximum Hit Points, and you immediately recover the lost Hit Points.

    Now you have a completely optional "HP tax" system that people who want to use it may, people who don't want to use it can skip it.


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    YuriP wrote:
    In the end they suffer from same limitations from spells (except silence) at sametime can't receive any benefit from any feat or ability that applies to "Cast a Spell" in the end being more restricted than Focus Cantrips for example that can normaly benefit from Reach Spell while Impulses can't. It's worse of both worlds.

    I think this kind of is the point. It takes impulses out of the spell playground, and removes the need to balance against anything in the spellcasting ecology. That makes it much easier to balance, and lets them hand the Kineticist more power directly. Basically, it cuts off a lot of the options for making your Kineticist powers stronger via archetyping, and, in turn, let them make the core kineticist build stronger on its own.

    I think I approve. I don't want kineticists to be thinking that they have to take spellcaster archetypes for optimization reasons.


    Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    A very good point. If impulses were changed to primal spells we'd have complaints about how full casters are better at impulses than kineticists.


    The solution being making so that they don't use the regular spellcasting proficiency, and instead use a unique proficiency.

    The same solution that would stop Fighter from being better at it than Kineticist.


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    Temperans wrote:

    The solution being making so that they don't use the regular spellcasting proficiency, and instead use a unique proficiency.

    The same solution that would stop Fighter from being better at it than Kineticist.

    Nah. I disgree with YuriP about much of his post, but I'm in agreement that introducing new mechanics that don't really cover new ground is not a good use of page space (I simply disagree that impulses would qualify).

    Easiest way to stop fighters from being better at Blasting is to say that Blasts count as an advanced weapon unarmed weapon if picked up via the MC feat. That's where they ought to be anyways (assuming Pronate's guide is accurate, and it seems to be). Then fighters are no better with blasts than kineticists, and most other martials are 1 step worse.

    ...Actually, even that is probably unnecessary. I forgot for a moment that "unarmed" is a weapon category, not a weapon group. Since blasts don't have a weapon group, Fighters can't select them for increased proficiency.

    Zero the Nothing wrote:
    YuriP wrote:
    Elemental Blast could become a Stance.
    That would be terrible as stances can only be used in combat and are a constant action tax for each encounter.

    Simple enough to give Kineticists a new Exploration activity "Gather: You start combat with a chosen element already gathered. As this also allows you to be more keenly aware of your natural surroundings, you can use Nature as your initiative roll."

    ...Actually I kind of want that anyways now.


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    AnimatedPaper wrote:
    [...Actually, even that is probably unnecessary. I forgot for a moment that "unarmed" is a weapon category, not a weapon group. Since blasts don't have a weapon group, Fighters can't select them for increased proficiency.

    Correction, I guess the way Martial Artist is worded Fighters and Gunslingers would be able to cheese out the higher proficiency.

    Of course, by then they’ve invested 4 feats to this build, or are using Free Archetype and have invested 2.

    So it’s kind of whatever. I don’t think it’s worth creating an overly complex mechanic just to circumvent a four feat investment to get an action that still won’t work with the majority of their feats or class abilities.


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    I wouldn't say that making elemental blast a completely unique proficiency would be complicated. Not more complicated than having a weird it is a thing but is not a thing, but it changes when you multiclass but is it still a thing.


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    Sanityfaerie wrote:
    YuriP wrote:
    In the end they suffer from same limitations from spells (except silence) at sametime can't receive any benefit from any feat or ability that applies to "Cast a Spell" in the end being more restricted than Focus Cantrips for example that can normaly benefit from Reach Spell while Impulses can't. It's worse of both worlds.

    I think this kind of is the point. It takes impulses out of the spell playground, and removes the need to balance against anything in the spellcasting ecology. That makes it much easier to balance, and lets them hand the Kineticist more power directly. Basically, it cuts off a lot of the options for making your Kineticist powers stronger via archetyping, and, in turn, let them make the core kineticist build stronger on its own.

    I think I approve. I don't want kineticists to be thinking that they have to take spellcaster archetypes for optimization reasons.

    Impulses being out of the spell playground sounds relatively absurd when we consider that Kineticists are literally inherently magical characters, far more than most any other martial in the game (with the exception of Magus and Warpriest). If Bards Inspiring Courage is magical, and is a form of spellcasting, then evoking elements to do WTF you want is far, far more magical than "I sing and make the martials swing better and harder."

    Just as well, since Kineticists' capacity to make their main abilities work is reliant on Strength, Dexterity, and/or Constitution, the odds of a spellcaster MCD being helpful for optimization reasons is quite slim, if at all.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
    Impulses being out of the spell playground sounds relatively absurd when we consider that Kineticists are literally inherently magical characters

    Only if you consider magic and spells to be completely synonymous, which has never been the case in Pathfinder. Spells are a type of magic, but have never been the only type.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Yeah, I don't see any good reason why they couldn't operate within the bounds of the Focus (and Focus Cantrip) system other than possibly as a measure to prevent the Class from effectively using any caster-related Archetypes which... honestly, just feels like spit in the face because they already ALSO have similar weirdness with their basic Elemental Blasts that prevents them from taking advantage of pretty much any interesting Martial Archetypes.

    It's almost like they are doing everything possible to keep all of their Class abilities and Feats in a little box that prevents them from interacting with any other Classes or Archetype features... makes no sense to me why they should be so unique.


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    Themetricsystem wrote:
    Yeah, I don't see any good reason why they couldn't operate within the bounds of the Focus (and Focus Cantrip) system

    Because it defines kineticist abilities in such a way that highlights that they are manipulating magic in a fundamentally different way. It frames their skillset around independent actions, in the same vein as the Inventor or Thaumaturge.

    Above all like... it doesn't actually matter. Okay, snap your fingers and suddenly every Kineticist ability is now called a Spell instead of an Impulse.

    What changes?

    Did you fix their damage or accuracy? No.
    What about addressing complaints about action economy? Not at all.
    AoOs? Still happen.

    Glad this is what we're focusing on.


    This fix some archetype and non-class feats and some itens interactions that in general are currently are totally alien to the class.

    The others problems are other independent question that need improvement. Yet they may help a little, some innate spells may help to improve the damage (the good old Strike+Save from Electric Arc/Scatter Scree may help to improve the DPR)

    It's also easier to just remove the manipulate trait from some specific Impulses like Stone Shield without rewrite how Impulse works.

    Another thing I point out again is that my criticism of Impulses is about the fact that they are very similar to Focus Cantrips that require verbal(concentration)+somatic(manipulate)+focus(gathered element) components for it to really be a unique mechanic.

    Transforming impulses into something really unique can also be a way out, but designers have to wait until last.


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    Temperans wrote:
    I wouldn't say that making elemental blast a completely unique proficiency would be complicated. Not more complicated than having a weird it is a thing but is not a thing, but it changes when you multiclass but is it still a thing.

    Actually, yes it is. You're not thinking about how this will need its own proficiency levels, meaning the class would have a Class DC, Weapon Proficiency, Armor Proficiency, AND now Blast proficiency with its own ranks and levels to consider. Not to mention all the skills. Plus now you're doing to need to get the damage back that is currently passively increased by handwraps and any other bonuses that unarmed attacks get.

    if it genuinely added to the classes gameplay, that'd be one thing, but worrying about a cheese build that requires two different archetypes?

    I think they'll be okay.


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    AnimatedPaper wrote:
    AnimatedPaper wrote:
    [...Actually, even that is probably unnecessary. I forgot for a moment that "unarmed" is a weapon category, not a weapon group. Since blasts don't have a weapon group, Fighters can't select them for increased proficiency.

    Correction, I guess the way Martial Artist is worded Fighters and Gunslingers would be able to cheese out the higher proficiency.

    Of course, by then they’ve invested 4 feats to this build, or are using Free Archetype and have invested 2.

    So it’s kind of whatever. I don’t think it’s worth creating an overly complex mechanic just to circumvent a four feat investment to get an action that still won’t work with the majority of their feats or class abilities.

    Gunslinger wouldn't be able to because of Singular Expertise, but Fighter would.


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    AnimatedPaper wrote:
    Temperans wrote:
    I wouldn't say that making elemental blast a completely unique proficiency would be complicated. Not more complicated than having a weird it is a thing but is not a thing, but it changes when you multiclass but is it still a thing.

    Actually, yes it is. You're not thinking about how this will need its own proficiency levels, meaning the class would have a Class DC, Weapon Proficiency, Armor Proficiency, AND now Blast proficiency with its own ranks and levels to consider. Not to mention all the skills. Plus now you're doing to need to get the damage back that is currently passively increased by handwraps and any other bonuses that unarmed attacks get.

    if it genuinely added to the classes gameplay, that'd be one thing, but worrying about a cheese build that requires two different archetypes?

    I think they'll be okay.

    What? Armor, Weapon, Skill and Class/Spell DC proficiency are literally in every single class. Are you really saying that adding a blast proficiency, no different from Gunslinger have their unique Firearm proficiency, is suddenly too much?

    The "without handwraps the class would have no damage" is also weird given that Paizo can quite literally just add an item to apply runes to Kinetic blasts: Kineticist's Diadems are an item that already exist in lore that give 1d6 to 3d6 extra dice of damage (1d8 to 3d8 for physical blasts). So why again are handwraps and bonuses to unarmed strike so vital to launching blasts of energy?


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    Squiggit wrote:
    Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
    Impulses being out of the spell playground sounds relatively absurd when we consider that Kineticists are literally inherently magical characters
    Only if you consider magic and spells to be completely synonymous, which has never been the case in Pathfinder. Spells are a type of magic, but have never been the only type.

    They are synonymous enough to me that, if they aren't spells, they aren't very magical, either.

    There are very few important magical non-spell effects that exist, which, honestly, even if they did exist, are so few and far between that they're basically non-existent, both from a presence standpoint, and from a mechanics standpoint. Even when they do exist, they're garbage. Everyone looks at Arcane Cascade and yawns about its value. Kobold Breath is slept on and crippled to obsolescence, as it does slightly less than Magic Missile damage with a cooldown. Even with feats to make it more powerful, it has a longer, unignorable cooldown. And I don't really need to go on any further, given that most anything else is either even worse, doesn't exist, or gets into spell territory.


    Temperans wrote:
    AnimatedPaper wrote:
    Temperans wrote:
    I wouldn't say that making elemental blast a completely unique proficiency would be complicated. Not more complicated than having a weird it is a thing but is not a thing, but it changes when you multiclass but is it still a thing.

    Actually, yes it is. You're not thinking about how this will need its own proficiency levels, meaning the class would have a Class DC, Weapon Proficiency, Armor Proficiency, AND now Blast proficiency with its own ranks and levels to consider. Not to mention all the skills. Plus now you're doing to need to get the damage back that is currently passively increased by handwraps and any other bonuses that unarmed attacks get.

    if it genuinely added to the classes gameplay, that'd be one thing, but worrying about a cheese build that requires two different archetypes?

    I think they'll be okay.

    What? Armor, Weapon, Skill and Class/Spell DC proficiency are literally in every single class. Are you really saying that adding a blast proficiency, no different from Gunslinger have their unique Firearm proficiency, is suddenly too much?

    The "without handwraps the class would have no damage" is also weird given that Paizo can quite literally just add an item to apply runes to Kinetic blasts: Kineticist's Diadems are an item that already exist in lore that give 1d6 to 3d6 extra dice of damage (1d8 to 3d8 for physical blasts). So why again are handwraps and bonuses to unarmed strike so vital to launching blasts of energy?

    Please reread what I said if you are going to try to discuss it with me. My tolerance for wild misstatements is pretty low at the moment.

    Quote:
    Are you really saying that adding a blast proficiency, no different from Gunslinger have their unique Firearm proficiency, is suddenly too much?
    Quote:
    "without handwraps the class would have no damage"
    Quote:
    So why again are handwraps and bonuses to unarmed strike so vital to launching blasts of energy?

    Given I said none of those things, I don't feel all that compelled to respond to them.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


    They are synonymous enough to me that, if they aren't spells, they aren't very magical, either.

    Okay well... that's just a you thing then, and has nothing to do with the game itself.

    Quote:
    There are very few important magical non-spell effects that exist

    Alright, but saying that you've just thrown most magic items out the window... half the Thaumaturge and Summoner, every Barbarian instinct except the two really terrible ones, a handful of monk abilities, dozens of archetype feats, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

    This just does not align with the reality of the game. PF2 is basically unplayable past the lowest levels without magic, but you can do without spells pretty easily.


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    AnimatedPaper wrote:
    Given I said none of those things, I don't feel all that compelled...

    I was asking if that was what you meant, and you answered that it wasn't.

    I don't see how 1 more proficiency makes it any more complicated than Gunslinger who has firearm proficiency that no other class (outside fighter) has.

    I also don't so what is so complicated about not making elemental blast tied down to unarmed attacks. You were saying that they would have to rework that damage, but the way I see it they have to rework the damage anyway. They might as well start from scratch and ignore things that improved unarmed strike that this class does not have, to me that would give the best chances of getting a power up.

    The last part I admit I was being a bit snarky, I am sorry. I really should sleep more.


    What I actually said was, and this was directly answering your post where you posited that it was not more complicated to add a new proficiency rather than tie it to a current one, was how and why adding that additional proficiency that was unique to this class would be more complex. TOO complex is down to individual users; but it is objectively more complex.

    Specifically, tying it to unarmed damage as it is and adding the language that it counts as an advanced weapon (which I later backpedaled on when I remembered unarmed isn't a weapon group) would be a total of two 2 lines, the current line in the playtest and a single line on the MC feat. Adding proficiency would be...at least 3 lines if you're just tying it to weapon proficiency or class proficiency, 6 or 7 lines if it's a separate thing on its own header, plus all the needed modifications to multiclass feats. If you're really concerned about fighters, you'd probably need special multiclass feats that specifically advance that proficiency, or at least add that advancement to other feats, so probably 2 lines for those, assuming MC would go to Expert.

    Though like I said, now that I remembered the category vs group distinction, I no longer think the language about it being an advanced weapon is necessary or wanted, as even that would now be "unneeded complexity for no purpose". As you can see, this is a standard I apply to even my own ideas.

    Also, adding a new item to perform the exact function of a current item IS adding complication to the game. That's just objectively true. I will acknowledge that the diadem would add the passive damage I was talking about, however, and weapon specialization would probably just need a couple more words (again, more complication, but only a bit more).

    Again, my point with all of that wasn't to say it adds up to being too complicated, just more complex. And if the added complexity doesn't really add to the gameplay, and I don't really see how it does that rather than just tread water, I don't think it should be in the game.

    Also, pointing to the gunslinger doesn't help as much as you might think, as I thought they were trying to get too cute and wound up with overly complex rules that fail to provide a gameplay enhancement, like the live version of the scatter trait.


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    Why are 2e kinetesists often considered reckless?

    Because they are too impulsive ...


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    Squiggit wrote:
    Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


    They are synonymous enough to me that, if they aren't spells, they aren't very magical, either.

    Okay well... that's just a you thing then, and has nothing to do with the game itself.

    Quote:
    There are very few important magical non-spell effects that exist

    Alright, but saying that you've just thrown most magic items out the window... half the Thaumaturge and Summoner, every Barbarian instinct except the two really terrible ones, a handful of monk abilities, dozens of archetype feats, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

    This just does not align with the reality of the game. PF2 is basically unplayable past the lowest levels without magic, but you can do without spells pretty easily.

    Okay, fine, I guess I forgot magic items. My mistake. But a majority of them are either garbage or are simply put in to balance the game's math that they might as well not be magical. There are very few magic items are...well...magical, that it probably slipped my mind. I could probably count on both of my hands, magic items that are actually magical, and aren't just math gap fillers.

    Some Thaumaturge options and most Summoner options are affected, yes. But honestly, a Summoner is just a spellcaster with a specialized pet companion (and the companion, while a major part of the class, is really the only non-spell thing affected), and plenty of other Thaumaturge options aren't affected by or rely on magic. It could be argued that Exploit Weakness is magical, but that is GM FIAT. For me, until I see a Magic or [Tradition] trait on it, or if the feat says it is magical, it is not magic. Operating under the assumption that things are magic until they say otherwise is more consistent than the inverse.

    I don't understand how a Barbarian is affected, though; doesn't a Barbarian's Rage effects persist through an Antimagic Field? I could understand some of the feats that operate like spells not working (i.e. battle form effects), but their other base effects? Sorry, I don't buy that. Same with Monks, but almost every magical effect they do is tied to a Focus Spell, so I also don't understand how every Monk option is obsoleted. Maybe a couple stances (but one is keyed to Focus Spells), but that is it.


    Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
    I don't understand how a Barbarian is affected, though; doesn't a Barbarian's Rage effects persist through an Antimagic Field? I could understand some of the feats that operate like spells not working (i.e. battle form effects), but their other base effects? Sorry, I don't buy that. Same with Monks, but almost every magical effect they do is tied to a Focus Spell, so I also don't understand how every Monk option is obsoleted. Maybe a couple stances (but one is keyed to Focus Spells), but that is it.

    Probably because of draconic/spirit barbarian has arcane/divine trait to it's rage damage.


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    Also, when someone grows to the size of a house or gets a ten-foot-long tongue or starts dealing cold damage with their axe or gets a breath weapon, or calls up spirits to make it harder to shoot them or sprouts wings because they're just that angry... I tend to think of that as magical. None of it references any spell.


    Sanityfaerie wrote:
    Also, when someone grows to the size of a house or gets a ten-foot-long tongue or starts dealing cold damage with their axe or gets a breath weapon, or calls up spirits to make it harder to shoot them or sprouts wings because they're just that angry... I tend to think of that as magical. None of it references any spell.

    I had to double-check the size increase ones, because I could have swore they referenced Enlarge as a spell, but I was mistaken. The Animal Form and Dragon Form feats replicate spells, though, even if they add special exceptions the spells don't otherwise convey, so I'm still counting those as spell effects.

    Fair on the other ones, though. They do reference a school or tradition of magic (which constitutes it being magical), and don't otherwise refer to a spell. Sounds like instead of Calm Emotions, you might want to consider throwing an Anti-Magic Field on the Barbarian instead, since they turn into a wet, spongy noodle while in it.


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    Oh, sure, I didn't even bother with the Animal Form or Dragon Form. As you note, we weren't looking for spells here.

    - The Animal Barbarian's built-in natural weapon attack, includign the frog tongue - it may not have a school or tradition, but the fact that the guy's tongue grows to ten feet long and becomes a viable attack when he gets angry sure seems like some kind of magic to me.

    - Dragon's Rage Breath and Dragon's Rage Wings both reference schools/traditions much more directly, but are also not spells.

    There's also a bunch of stuff you can get with ancestries.

    - Kobold Breath gives the little lizards a breath weapon (arcane, evocation) at level 1

    - Kitsune, Anandi, and Beastkin shapeshifting are all magical but not spell-related (and if there are any other shapeshifting ancestries/heritages, I suspect theirs are as well)

    - The Oread's One With Earth and Treacherous Earth offer what seem clearly to be supernatural abilities that come from their connection with the elements but that aren't particularly spell-like. Those *don't* have tradition or school markings... but I'd still call them magical.

    ...and so forth.


    Replicating spells =/= are spells.

    Replicating a spell is strictly a shorthand of saying "do the same thing as X" without having to copy the whole thing again. Which btw, should be used more often.


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    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Anything with the Arcane, Divine, Magical, Occult, or Primal traits is inherently magical.

    For the most part, Paizo made it pretty easy to tell what is magical and what is not.


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
    Temperans wrote:

    Replicating spells =/= are spells.

    Replicating a spell is strictly a shorthand of saying "do the same thing as X" without having to copy the whole thing again. Which btw, should be used more often.

    please no, we went through the times of monsters covered in "spell like abilities" already, i dont want to go back


    Ravingdork wrote:

    Anything with the Arcane, Divine, Magical, Occult, or Primal traits is inherently magical.

    For the most part, Paizo made it pretty easy to tell what is magical and what is not.

    What if it doesn't have one of those but does have, say, Evocation?

    ...and there are things that I'd absolutely describe as magical that don't have any of those tags... like the fact that a frog barbarian's tongue becomes impossibly long when they get angry enough. If that's not magic, then what is it?


    I don't remember to see any school unassociated to magic.

    What thing that is associated to magicas that aren't magical or alchemic?

    Sometimes due the recursion of traits some people think there are things without magical trait but has due other traits recursion.


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
    Sanityfaerie wrote:
    Ravingdork wrote:

    Anything with the Arcane, Divine, Magical, Occult, or Primal traits is inherently magical.

    For the most part, Paizo made it pretty easy to tell what is magical and what is not.

    What if it doesn't have one of those but does have, say, Evocation?

    ...and there are things that I'd absolutely describe as magical that don't have any of those tags... like the fact that a frog barbarian's tongue becomes impossibly long when they get angry enough. If that's not magic, then what is it?

    um... "Bestial Rage (Instinct Ability)

    ......Your Rage action gains the morph, primal, and transmutation traits."


    Kekkres wrote:
    Temperans wrote:

    Replicating spells =/= are spells.

    Replicating a spell is strictly a shorthand of saying "do the same thing as X" without having to copy the whole thing again. Which btw, should be used more often.

    please no, we went through the times of monsters covered in "spell like abilities" already, i dont want to go back

    When did I mention anything about monsters full of spell-like abilities?

    I am talking about thing like Barbarians literally using earthquake once every hour. No spell slots, no focus points.

    Is Kineticist so bad at controlling the elements that a Barbarian can create earthquakes but not them? Because, "we can't just have things copy the effect of a spell".

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