What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?

[Tropkagar]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Tropkagar wrote:

Cheliax is a great villain that has some of their signature traits that have already been worked out. Therefore, I would like Cheliax to win and restore their reputation as a strong state, and I would be extremely positive about the Cheliax AP, where the players help them win.

Reputation and foreign victories matter very little, the regime is stronger than it's ever been, having managed to crush or preempt and disorient its enemies.

I look at it from the perspective of the player, and not as an inhabitant of this world. Yes, Cheliax was able to get rid of many problems. But no, it's hard for me as a consumer to perceive Cheliax as a threat until they have at least some serious victories outside of maintaining the status quo.

[GM_3826]

Also looking at it from the perspective as a player, Cheliax being hard to perceive as a threat makes sense knowing that authoritarian governments in the real world typically struggle with systemic weakness as a result of over-reliance on coercion. As in, Cheliax as portrayed now is entirely consistent with a specific interpretation of its place in the world, it's just not "indomitable evil empire". If it's not supposed to be threatening from our perspective, it doesn't need to have a major victory over the status quo. From that angle, Asmodeus and his followers seemingly struggling to maintain control makes sense and doesn't pose any issues. This is especially true considering that there are two other tyrannical empires in the Inner Sea region that do the "trains run on time" shtick much better, including another in Old Cheliax.

[Phillip Gastone]

Wasn't the situation in Westcrown(before it got taken over) going exactly as planned? The Shadowcurse kept a lid on everyone while still letting the city function. Ilnerik seemed to be playing ball with Cheliax and the 'resistance' was pretty much people doing the equivalent of being angry on the internet.

[Tropkagar]

Phillip Gastone wrote:

Wasn't the situation in Westcrown(before it got taken over) going exactly as planned? The Shadowcurse kept a lid on everyone while still letting the city function. Ilnerik seemed to be playing ball with Cheliax and the 'resistance' was pretty much people doing the equivalent of being angry on the internet.

Yes, and then the question arises. Why is Cheliax even needed in the setting? So that players can slowly take the country apart in adventures?

I suggest increasing its level of danger through the eyes of the player, especially the player who is not deeply immersed in the setting. To that end, I would like to show that Cheliax is also capable of disrupting the status quo to its own advantage. And it should be an unconditional benefit, without reservations.

[The Raven Black]

Cheliax is the Hellish country where you can be part of the Resistance and make a difference.

Doing it in Nidal or Geb is far far less likely to end well.

Nidal is the land of unending doom.

Geb is the undead nation.

Cheliax is the setting's Nazis, a bit too often seen through the popular Indiana Jones' lens. They are the incompetent Evil guys your PCs can feel good punching in the face with the blessing of Paizo.

[Tropkagar]

The Raven Black wrote:

Cheliax is the Hellish country where you can be part of the Resistance and make a difference.

Doing it in Nidal or Geb is far far less likely to end well.

Nidal is the land of unending doom.

Geb is the undead nation.

Cheliax is the setting's Nazis, a bit too often seen through the popular Indiana Jones' lens. They are the incompetent Evil guys your PCs can feel good punching in the face with the blessing of Paizo.

You can always make a more unpleasant opponent. I already suggested the idea of a story where the players are the fighters of the army sent against Tar-Baphon and to establish a protectorate in the territory of Lastwall. Yes, Cheliax is the closest analogue to the Nazi monarchy, but they want to terrorize the world with living inhabitants. Tar-Baphon wants to kill everyone. So in choosing between these two options, I will definitely turn to the district Hellknight.

[Rysky]

Peculiar scenario you’ve concocted there.

[Tropkagar]

I perceive this as a fairly classic scenario of confrontation between the rather ordinary evil and the apocalyptic evil. From my point of view, this is a good rationale for the players to help Cheliax. Blood Lords is a similar type of story from a certain point of view.

In such a story, the characters don't even have to be, in fact, villains, unlike Hell Vengeance. Bosses are certainly evil, but the idea of fighting the undead is not an evil act.

[zimmerwald1915]

Tropkagar wrote:

I suggest increasing its level of danger through the eyes of the player, especially the player who is not deeply immersed in the setting. To that end, I would like to show that Cheliax is also capable of disrupting the status quo to its own advantage. And it should be an unconditional benefit, without reservations.

What difference does Cheliax being proficient at foreign conquest make to a player whose primary point of contact with the regime is its police and state security forces rather than its army (that is to say, anyone who is playing a subject of Cheliax and not a soldier opposing its soldiers on behalf of some other state, or non-state people)?

Besides, what you've asked for exists already. If you want to play as a Chelish agent for some reason there's Hell's Vengeance or any number of Pathfinder Society scenarios, if you want to play as an evil character in an actually good Adventure Path there's Reign of Winter and Blood Lords, and if you want to play through a war there's Kingmaker and Ironfang Invasion and War for the Crown.

[Tropkagar]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Tropkagar wrote:

I suggest increasing its level of danger through the eyes of the player, especially the player who is not deeply immersed in the setting. To that end, I would like to show that Cheliax is also capable of disrupting the status quo to its own advantage. And it should be an unconditional benefit, without reservations.

What difference does Cheliax being proficient at foreign conquest make to a player whose primary point of contact with the regime is its police and state security forces rather than its army (that is to say, anyone who is playing a subject of Cheliax and not a soldier opposing its soldiers on behalf of some other state, or non-state people)?

Besides, what you've asked for exists already. If you want to play as a Chelish agent for some reason there's Hell's Vengeance or any number of Pathfinder Society scenarios, if you want to play as an evil character in an actually good Adventure Path there's Reign of Winter and Blood Lords, and if you want to play through a war there's Kingmaker and Ironfang Invasion and War for the Crown.

No, I agree that there are separate elements of the desired in different APs. It's just that from my point of view, the events of the Cheliax-related AP demonstrate the capabilities of the country as a whole, since we faced not only the police forces, but also the navy and the army. Therefore, I really believe that the success of the Cheliax will make them a more formidable opponent in the future. Because even if the defeats gave Cheliax a reason to solve internal problems, it looks like a defeat that they are trying to learn from. Therefore, an impressive victory against a serious opponent can demonstrate that they learn.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think the big difference between "Cheliax΅ and "other evil countries" is that the Chellish Civil War ended (with the ascension of Abrogail Thrune I) something like 80 years ago. Geb's been in charge of the country named after him for like 4000 years and NIdal's been in the thrall of Zon-Kuthon for 10,000 years.

Cheliax simply isn't as stable as its unholy cohorts, and I think there is little benefit to the Paizo authors or audience in making it significantly so. Cheliax is the evil nation where there are multiple Pathfinder Society Lodges, after all. It seems like the "Cheliax fights back" story was already done in Hell's Vengeance, where they get a W finally.

Regardless, the story Paizo should be telling is how Thrune uses the threat of that Lich up North to buy time for Cheliax to lick its wounds from the last 10 years. As in "Cheliax is bad, but there's nothing its neighbors can politically justify doing anything about it" (much to the chagrin of people living in Cheliax.)

[zimmerwald1915]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Regardless, the story Paizo should be telling is how Thrune uses the threat of that Lich up North to buy time for Cheliax to lick its wounds from the last 10 years. As in "Cheliax is bad, but there's nothing its neighbors can politically justify doing anything about it" (much to the chagrin of people living in Cheliax.)

". . . and also the ostensible political vanguard of the people living in Cheliax are either witting or unwitting regime stooges, because the people living in Cheliax are too retrograde to autogenerate anything better for themselves." But Paizo is telling that story.

[Perpdepog]

Rysky wrote:

Peculiar scenario you’ve concocted there.

Aside from the whole establishing a protectorate thing that is kinda what's playing out though, in fairness. Cheliax is "the devil we know"--pardon the pun--and is getting along with other nations because of it.

You know, until some noble or devil-binder or other thinks that helping TB slaughter the world would net more souls for Hell or whatever, and Cheliax screws the pooch.

[The Raven Black]

Perpdepog wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Peculiar scenario you’ve concocted there.

Aside from the whole establishing a protectorate thing that is kinda what's playing out though, in fairness. Cheliax is "the devil we know"--pardon the pun--and is getting along with other nations because of it.

You know, until some noble or devil-binder or other thinks that helping TB slaughter the world would net more souls for Hell or whatever, and Cheliax screws the pooch.

Sounds like an Asmodeus frees Rovagug scenario.

I would be more interested in diehards opponents of Thrune ready to covertly help Tar-Baphon gather a few victories at the expense of Cheliax. And fan the flames of ignominous defeats at the hands of the undead horde in a full-blown overthrow of the Hellish regime.

And the PCs happen to uncover these plans somewhere after they began but before they are completed.

Which Evil will they choose to help ?

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

The Raven Black wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Peculiar scenario you’ve concocted there.

Aside from the whole establishing a protectorate thing that is kinda what's playing out though, in fairness. Cheliax is "the devil we know"--pardon the pun--and is getting along with other nations because of it.

You know, until some noble or devil-binder or other thinks that helping TB slaughter the world would net more souls for Hell or whatever, and Cheliax screws the pooch.

Sounds like an Asmodeus frees Rovagug scenario.

The rest of this is a cool idea, but I wanted to address this like because I feel like it would take a lot more than one nation dedicated to him on one planet in one galaxy to be worth freeing a monster which could devour half a dozen planets before their first sunsets. It just seems like the Rovagug threshold is a lot higher than the fate of Cheliax, unless doing so gains him something worth significantly more.

[PossibleCabbage]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Regardless, the story Paizo should be telling is how Thrune uses the threat of that Lich up North to buy time for Cheliax to lick its wounds from the last 10 years. As in "Cheliax is bad, but there's nothing its neighbors can politically justify doing anything about it" (much to the chagrin of people living in Cheliax.)

". . . and also the ostensible political vanguard of the people living in Cheliax are either witting or unwitting regime stooges, because the people living in Cheliax are too retrograde to autogenerate anything better for themselves." But Paizo is telling that story.

One wonders if the next good chance for change in Cheliax is when Abrogail II shuffles on down to Hell, since the House of Thrune is full of failsons and faildaughters and maybe some failenbies.

She's currently in her early 30s, but she is the fifth monarch in the last 50 years since her great-grandmother. The sense I get is that she's a much more effective tyrant than Infrexus, Carellia, Terthule, or Antoninus. She is at least better at not being poisoned or drowning.

[The Raven Black]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Peculiar scenario you’ve concocted there.

Aside from the whole establishing a protectorate thing that is kinda what's playing out though, in fairness. Cheliax is "the devil we know"--pardon the pun--and is getting along with other nations because of it.

You know, until some noble or devil-binder or other thinks that helping TB slaughter the world would net more souls for Hell or whatever, and Cheliax screws the pooch.

Sounds like an Asmodeus frees Rovagug scenario.

The rest of this is a cool idea, but I wanted to address this like because I feel like it would take a lot more than one nation dedicated to him on one planet in one galaxy to be worth freeing a monster which could devour half a dozen planets before their first sunsets. It just seems like the Rovagug threshold is a lot higher than the fate of Cheliax, unless doing so gains him something worth significantly more.

I was not clear. I did not mean it would end up in such a story.

I meant it as a parallel to the scenario some posters sometimes wish for that Asmodeus would free Rovagug for some hare-brained scheme.

I think it goes far too much into the incompetent stupid Evil portrayal I tend to dislike.

If Evil had always been so incompetent, no way they would have reached the levels of power they have, not the achievements they did.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

The Raven Black wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Sounds like an Asmodeus frees Rovagug scenario.

The rest of this is a cool idea, but I wanted to address this like because I feel like it would take a lot more than one nation dedicated to him on one planet in one galaxy to be worth freeing a monster which could devour half a dozen planets before their first sunsets. It just seems like the Rovagug threshold is a lot higher than the fate of Cheliax, unless doing so gains him something worth significantly more.

I was not clear. I did not mean it would end up in such a story.

I meant it as a parallel to the scenario some posters sometimes wish for that Asmodeus would free Rovagug for some hare-brained scheme.

I think it goes far too much into the incompetent stupid Evil portrayal I tend to dislike.

If Evil had always been so incompetent, no way they would have reached the levels of power they have, not the achievements they did.

Ah, I should have followed the indirect chain of conversation more closely. Objection retracted, you clearly knew what you were saying with that one.

[The Raven Black]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Sounds like an Asmodeus frees Rovagug scenario.

The rest of this is a cool idea, but I wanted to address this like because I feel like it would take a lot more than one nation dedicated to him on one planet in one galaxy to be worth freeing a monster which could devour half a dozen planets before their first sunsets. It just seems like the Rovagug threshold is a lot higher than the fate of Cheliax, unless doing so gains him something worth significantly more.

I was not clear. I did not mean it would end up in such a story.

I meant it as a parallel to the scenario some posters sometimes wish for that Asmodeus would free Rovagug for some hare-brained scheme.

I think it goes far too much into the incompetent stupid Evil portrayal I tend to dislike.

If Evil had always been so incompetent, no way they would have reached the levels of power they have, not the achievements they did.

Ah, I should have followed the indirect chain of conversation more closely. Objection retracted, you clearly knew what you were saying with that one.

I am happy you raised it though. If you read my post that way, it means others would too, so it is good that I clarified my meaning in answer to your post.

[zimmerwald1915]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Regardless, the story Paizo should be telling is how Thrune uses the threat of that Lich up North to buy time for Cheliax to lick its wounds from the last 10 years. As in "Cheliax is bad, but there's nothing its neighbors can politically justify doing anything about it" (much to the chagrin of people living in Cheliax.)

". . . and also the ostensible political vanguard of the people living in Cheliax are either witting or unwitting regime stooges, because the people living in Cheliax are too retrograde to autogenerate anything better for themselves." But Paizo is telling that story.

One wonders if the next good chance for change in Cheliax is when Abrogail II shuffles on down to Hell, since the House of Thrune is full of failsons and faildaughters and maybe some failenbies.

She's currently in her early 30s, but she is the fifth monarch in the last 50 years since her great-grandmother. The sense I get is that she's a much more effective tyrant than Infrexus, Carellia, Terthule, or Antoninus. She is at least better at not being poisoned or drowning.

A chance for change in 50 years is no chance at all. The Tsarist regime could have survived if Stolypin had seven years to work with instead of five.

[The Raven Black]

We have a saying in France : Patience and long time achieve more than strength and rage.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Raven Black wrote:

We have a saying in France : Patience and long time achieve more than strength and rage.

This saying is freighted with so much irony I felt it in my bones.

[The Raven Black]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

We have a saying in France : Patience and long time achieve more than strength and rage.

This saying is freighted with so much irony I felt it in my bones.

???

I did not understand your meaning.

[PossibleCabbage]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

A chance for change in 50 years is no chance at all. The Tsarist regime could have survived if Stolypin had seven years to work with instead of five.

Well, the "Abrogail Thrune II is assassinated" is a major plot card they can play at any point, since the previous five monarchs of Cheliax were all assassinated, one of them literally two days after being crowned Magister. They've already laid the groundwork for this just with the history of the place.

[keftiu]

The Raven Black wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

We have a saying in France : Patience and long time achieve more than strength and rage.

This saying is freighted with so much irony I felt it in my bones.

???

I did not understand your meaning.

The French are historically famous for rioting and violent protest.

[The Raven Black]

keftiu wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

We have a saying in France : Patience and long time achieve more than strength and rage.

This saying is freighted with so much irony I felt it in my bones.

???

I did not understand your meaning.

The French are historically famous for rioting and violent protest.

Which is likely why we know it does not lead anywhere really.

But it's true that French people do tend to believe that you cannot have evolution without revolution.

The saying I mentioned above is wiser IMO.

[keftiu]

The Raven Black wrote:

keftiu wrote:

The French are historically famous for rioting and violent protest.

Which is likely why we know it does not lead anywhere really.

But it's true that French people do tend to believe that you cannot have evolution without revolution.

The saying I mentioned above is wiser IMO.

I mean, there's no king ruling France, right?

[zimmerwald1915]

keftiu wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

keftiu wrote:

The French are historically famous for rioting and violent protest.

Which is likely why we know it does not lead anywhere really.

But it's true that French people do tend to believe that you cannot have evolution without revolution.

The saying I mentioned above is wiser IMO.

I mean, there's no king ruling France, right?

Wrong. The President of the Fifth Republic is a monarch in all but name. But then, the Fourth Republic (the last semi-decent one) was brought down in a military coup, so. . . .

[The Raven Black]

keftiu wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

keftiu wrote:

The French are historically famous for rioting and violent protest.

Which is likely why we know it does not lead anywhere really.

But it's true that French people do tend to believe that you cannot have evolution without revolution.

The saying I mentioned above is wiser IMO.

I mean, there's no king ruling France, right?

TBT, there is no king ruling Switzerland, Germany or Italy either.

But, as mentioned above, the 5th Republic is a strong presidential regime.

And, whatever the political party, the French are always looking up to the providential strong man (far more rarely woman) who will single-handedly save the nation.

I like to say that we, the French people, love our monarchs (whether elected or hereditary) but we decapitate them from time to time so that they do not become complacent.

[zimmerwald1915]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

A chance for change in 50 years is no chance at all. The Tsarist regime could have survived if Stolypin had seven years to work with instead of five.

Well, the "Abrogail Thrune II is assassinated" is a major plot card they can play at any point, since the previous five monarchs of Cheliax were all assassinated, one of them literally two days after being crowned Magister. They've already laid the groundwork for this just with the history of the place.

But they won't.

[Dancing Wind]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

But they won't.

Which brand of crystal ball did you buy? Care to give us a product recommendation?

[Phillip Gastone]

Depends if she has Joker Immunity. The Joker is more an IP than a character so perma-killing him is not going to happen.

[Rysky]

Phillip Gastone wrote:

Depends if she has Joker Immunity. The Joker is more an IP than a character so perma-killing him is not going to happen.

Joker/Lolth Immunity is currently clutched by Tar Baphon.

[Evan Tarlton]

Rysky wrote:

Phillip Gastone wrote:

Depends if she has Joker Immunity. The Joker is more an IP than a character so perma-killing him is not going to happen.

Joker/Lolth Immunity is currently clutched by Tar Baphon.

Which makes me wonder exactly how he'll be handled when the time comes. He'll probably end up locked away again, but I think it would be more satisfying to get his soul cage from Urgathoa and then destroy him. Given that 1e ended with the PCs sacrificing themselves permanently to deny him godhood, 2e ending with him finished off once and for all would be poetic.

[zimmerwald1915]

Rysky wrote:

Phillip Gastone wrote:

Depends if she has Joker Immunity. The Joker is more an IP than a character so perma-killing him is not going to happen.

Joker/Lolth Immunity is currently clutched by Tar Baphon.

It's hardly a zero-sum game.

Although, what would perhaps be most frustrating is if Paizo were to kill Abrogail off without player involvement (i.e., the Vidrian Maneuver).

[The Raven Black]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Phillip Gastone wrote:

Depends if she has Joker Immunity. The Joker is more an IP than a character so perma-killing him is not going to happen.

Joker/Lolth Immunity is currently clutched by Tar Baphon.

It's hardly a zero-sum game.

Although, what would perhaps be most frustrating is if Paizo were to kill Abrogail off without player involvement (i.e., the Vidrian Maneuver).

Abrogail disappearing (maybe even being killed) would be an awesome premise for an AP. Everyone involved is so completely paranoid about everyone else that the PCs are the only ones deemed neutral / uninvolved / seemingly incompetent enough to be trusted with the investigation.

[PossibleCabbage]

I'd be surprised if Abrogail is still around at the end of the next 6 part AP about Cheliax. Now it may be like 10+ years before they get around to doing another one of those, but it feels like the "primarily about Cheliax" stories left are "that war with Andoran" (where it would be more traditional for the PCs to side with Andoran) and "Succession."

It doesn't necessarily need to involve her death, she's powerful and smart and well-connected but is facing an eventual fate she might like to dodge and if her family members are sharpening the long knives, she might just try to get out of it all.

[Evan Tarlton]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'd be surprised if Abrogail is still around at the end of the next 6 part AP about Cheliax. Now it may be like 10+ years before they get around to doing another one of those, but it feels like the "primarily about Cheliax" stories left are "that war with Andoran" (where it would be more traditional for the PCs to side with Andoran) and "Succession."

It doesn't necessarily need to involve her death, she's powerful and smart and well-connected but is facing an eventual fate she might like to dodge and if her family members are sharpening the long knives, she might just try to get out of it all.

Her (however many greats) great-grandmother had just a plan in place, but she never needed to set it in motion. Maybe Abrogail II might need to.

[Brinebeast]

I wouldn't mind seeing Abrogail II taken to the next level. Instead of being killed off, she becomes a newly ascended Queen of Night.

[Morhek]

Brinebeast wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing Abrogail II taken to the next level. Instead of being killed off, she becomes a newly ascended Queen of Night.

If Abrogail becomes a Queen of the Night, I have to imagine it'll come with some incredible, and probably unexpected, strings attached on her own part. Asmodeus does nothing for nothing in return. Like Jafar, wishing for phenomenal cosmic power but also getting itty bitty living space. The Queens of Night enjoy the fact that they have carved out a powerful niche of their own despite Asmodeus's misogyny, but having one beholden to him might be an appealing thought for the Lord of the Pit.

On the other hand, being ruled by an actual Queen of the Night might do a lot to revive Cheliax's fortunes post-Hell's Vengeance - cementing Hell's foothold in Cheliax, increasing the resources it has at its disposal, and sidelining the importance of the Thrune bloodline which, as the history of assassinations and Barzillai's power play in Ravounel has proven, can be unreliable. A story about Abrogail somehow claiming the Starstone's power, or ascending some other way, could be pretty darn cool, especially if the players are the ones tasked with achieving it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

but it feels like the "primarily about Cheliax" stories left are "that war with Andoran" (where it would be more traditional for the PCs to side with Andoran)

That time may be coming sooner than we think...

Stolen Fate and various other Adventure Path SPOILERS!:

The end of The Worst of All Possible Worlds (assuming the PCs are successful, of course) features a cinematic vision of the future in various places on Golarion where it's outright recommended for the GM to use it as a teaser for future campaigns with your group. This may just be speculation on my part, but the examples they give may very well be actual teasers for future APs. There's one for including a phoenix with peacock feathers that, especially given the cover of the upcoming GM Core implies Xanderghul may not be as dead as we all thought. There's a vision of screaming ghosts that I believe is a reference to Season of Ghosts, the Tian Xia four-parter coming after Sky King's Tomb.

One of those visions shows "two great nations go to war." Given Taldor has largely righted itself after War for the Crown and Eutropia is trying very hard to avoid war with Qadira, Ironfang Invasion has resulted in Oprak, Molthune and Nirmathas reaching a very tense peace, while Outlaws of Alkenstar and Blood Lords kind of makes me feel Nex and Geb aren't going to be back in the spotlight so soon...that leaves Cheliax and Andoran, who've been glaring daggers at each other since the Glorious Reclamation...

[Tropkagar]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

but it feels like the "primarily about Cheliax" stories left are "that war with Andoran" (where it would be more traditional for the PCs to side with Andoran)

That time may be coming sooner than we think...** spoiler omitted **

Great news! We need more attention to these two nations. I love lawful evil factions. And I would like more Andoran (in the first edition, it seemed to me completely deprived of content that would really influence the world).

[The Raven Black]

Could the two great nations going to war happen in Tian-xia or Arcadia ?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The Raven Black wrote:

Could the two great nations going to war happen in Tian-xia or Arcadia ?

I dunno about Tian Xia considering it'd be so soon after Season of Ghosts.

Arcadia, on the other hand, could be a maybe, but I don't think the great military powers of that continent have been telegraphed as wanting to go to war as much as Andoran and Cheliax have...it's POSSIBLE, but an Andoran/Cheliax throwdown feels more PROBABLE, at least from my perspective...

[The Raven Black]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Could the two great nations going to war happen in Tian-xia or Arcadia ?

I dunno about Tian Xia considering it'd be so soon after Season of Ghosts.

Arcadia, on the other hand, could be a maybe, but I don't think the great military powers of that continent have been telegraphed as wanting to go to war as much as Andoran and Cheliax have...it's POSSIBLE, but an Andoran/Cheliax throwdown feels more PROBABLE, at least from my perspective...

TBH I think Andoran and Cheliax going to war now, with the Whispering Tyrant out there, would be the dumbest move for both countries.

[James Jacobs]

The Raven Black wrote:

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Could the two great nations going to war happen in Tian-xia or Arcadia ?

I dunno about Tian Xia considering it'd be so soon after Season of Ghosts.

Arcadia, on the other hand, could be a maybe, but I don't think the great military powers of that continent have been telegraphed as wanting to go to war as much as Andoran and Cheliax have...it's POSSIBLE, but an Andoran/Cheliax throwdown feels more PROBABLE, at least from my perspective...

TBH I think Andoran and Cheliax going to war now, with the Whispering Tyrant out there, would be the dumbest move for both countries.

There are plenty of real world and fictional world examples of countries going to war for dumb reasons.

[Tropkagar]

James Jacobs wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Could the two great nations going to war happen in Tian-xia or Arcadia ?

I dunno about Tian Xia considering it'd be so soon after Season of Ghosts.

Arcadia, on the other hand, could be a maybe, but I don't think the great military powers of that continent have been telegraphed as wanting to go to war as much as Andoran and Cheliax have...it's POSSIBLE, but an Andoran/Cheliax throwdown feels more PROBABLE, at least from my perspective...

TBH I think Andoran and Cheliax going to war now, with the Whispering Tyrant out there, would be the dumbest move for both countries.

There are plenty of real world and fictional world examples of countries going to war for dumb reasons.

I suppose this can be considered official confirmation of the war between these two particular factions.

[The Raven Black]

James Jacobs wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Could the two great nations going to war happen in Tian-xia or Arcadia ?

I dunno about Tian Xia considering it'd be so soon after Season of Ghosts.

Arcadia, on the other hand, could be a maybe, but I don't think the great military powers of that continent have been telegraphed as wanting to go to war as much as Andoran and Cheliax have...it's POSSIBLE, but an Andoran/Cheliax throwdown feels more PROBABLE, at least from my perspective...

TBH I think Andoran and Cheliax going to war now, with the Whispering Tyrant out there, would be the dumbest move for both countries.

There are plenty of real world and fictional world examples of countries going to war for dumb reasons.

For dumb reasons, sure.

At the worst time for them, I'm not so sure.

But, yes, it can happen, I guess.

[keftiu]

Nah, James is human and likes to use the forums like everything else. Not everything he says is a hint to be deciphered for the future.

A brawl between nations on Avistani soil sounds like plenty of fun for an AP, though, even if I’m not exactly waving an Andoran flag around. One expects such a thing will have room for international volunteers, or some other source of of PCs beyond valiant patriots, so I’m happy.

We should have a speculation thread for that prophecy after release day. It’s SO juicy.

[James Jacobs]

Tropkagar wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Could the two great nations going to war happen in Tian-xia or Arcadia ?

I dunno about Tian Xia considering it'd be so soon after Season of Ghosts.

Arcadia, on the other hand, could be a maybe, but I don't think the great military powers of that continent have been telegraphed as wanting to go to war as much as Andoran and Cheliax have...it's POSSIBLE, but an Andoran/Cheliax throwdown feels more PROBABLE, at least from my perspective...

TBH I think Andoran and Cheliax going to war now, with the Whispering Tyrant out there, would be the dumbest move for both countries.

There are plenty of real world and fictional world examples of countries going to war for dumb reasons.

I suppose this can be considered official confirmation of the war between these two particular factions.

Nope. Nothing we as employees post on these boards should ever be taken as "official" unless we specifically say so. This is just me engaging on the topic and being excited to discuss stuff with you all.

Sometimes I forget that when I take part in discussions online, my words can carry that extra weight.