|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Order of the nail is weird in that leader is LE and motivated by personal grudge, but some members are LN and there is one LG centaur among ranks. I can't tell if that is supposed to imply that if Lictor was removed, they could be reformed into more "help build up settlements in frontiers" order rather than the genocidal (culturally and bodily) order they are right now. Still though I imagine that order might fall from primary to small one if everyone who took part in trying to genocide Shoanti was arrested :P I imagine that the part of them who mostly focus on fighting monsters can't be largest part of order just because of Lictor's orders.
(I forget exact course of events in my crimson throne campaign, but post campaign party ended up vigilante justice assassinating Lictor Severs DiViri for his jackassery ;P I did rule he is evil enough to raise as graveknight later on, but either way he was removed from leadership)
Order of the Coil is just horrifyingly vile though without any question marks. (also makes me think of serpentfolk from name, so that is confusing xP)
It really feels like the less objectionable Hellknight Orders are about "we're against a specific kind of crime like murder or kidnapping" whereas the wholly objectionable Hellknight Orders are about "total societal oppression using whatever means necessary." So there's kind of an asymmetry there.
Like the Hellknight who wants to stop littering and the Hellknight who wants to eliminate free will so you can work people harder at their jobs are simply not operating on the same level.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you're going to do a Hellknight AP, something like an order where you're tasked to eliminate abuse of authority and institutional corruption where your targets include *other Hellknights* could work.
Like make the premise of the order "using legitimate power illegitimately or for illegitimate ends is the worst crime, because it undermines the very idea that some should wield power over others" and I'm all for it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you're going to do a Hellknight AP, something like an order where you're tasked to eliminate abuse of authority and institutional corruption where your targets include *other Hellknights* could work.
Like make the premise of the order "using legitimate power illegitimately or for illegitimate ends is the worst crime, because it undermines the very idea that some should wield power over others" and I'm all for it.
This is pretty much exactly what LO: Legends sets up for the Order of the Scourge, and why I proposed them as the anchor for an AP last page.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It would be fun if the main theme of a Hellknight AP was ACAB, as in institutional corruption is reinforced institutionally, so the way to affect change is not "campaign for reform" as corrupt institutions will wholly commit to resisting that.
What I'm saying is Abolish the Order of the Rack.
Order of the nail is weird in that leader is LE and motivated by personal grudge, but some members are LN and there is one LG centaur among ranks. I can't tell if that is supposed to imply that if Lictor was removed, they could be reformed into more "help build up settlements in frontiers" order rather than the genocidal (culturally and bodily) order they are right now. Still though I imagine that order might fall from primary to small one if everyone who took part in trying to genocide Shoanti was arrested :P I imagine that the part of them who mostly focus on fighting monsters can't be largest part of order just because of Lictor's orders.
I want to like this vision for the Order of the Nail, but don't know how they wouldn't just be "the Order that provides violent backing to colonizers" in practice. There's not really a way to safeguard frontier settlements that doesn't involve signing off on encroaching on the land.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think "End an entire order of the Hellknights, then create its successor without the various problems that made ending them necessary, while still covering the important things the previous order cared about (or pretended it cared about) " is a quite strong premise of a 1-20 campaign.
1-20 might be too much. The leaders of the major orders are all between levels 10-16, with 3 out of the 7 being 10.
Well, Abrogail herself is like level 18 (and she might have gotten stronger since PF1), so you also want to be someone that she doesn't want to mess with, which she absolutely would want to do if you're running up against one of the pro-Thrune Orders.
While several of the orders are explicitly biased towards Cheliax societal norms and/or have the approval of the Cheliax government (the Rack, as has been noted, being prominently so), only the Glyph is specifically pro Thrune, and they’re a secret order the others don’t know about.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
How about this - rather than Vidoc leading an anti-Thrune purge, the Hellknight AP is a reaction to the Chelish throne denouncing any Orders not firmly leashed to the empire? Playing Hellknights on the run could be a blast - it's not like most of the populace will be in a hurry to help you.
It’d have to have some sort of big event to start it off. Hellknights are notoriously factious, but the only order I could realistically see actively tying themselves to Thrune like that is the Rack. Possibly the Pyre, but even then making enemies out of 5 of the 7 major orders doesn’t seem like something Abrogail would do, particularly when she knows that the most powerful (or at least influential) one is right in her capital and has been actively preparing to deal with her doing that exact thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While several of the orders are explicitly biased towards Cheliax societal norms and/or have the approval of the Cheliax government (the Rack, as has been noted, being prominently so), only the Glyph is specifically pro Thrune, and they’re a secret order the others don’t know about.They're secret because they aren't actually an order, at least not in the way the Hellknights proper would see it. They're closer to the Order of the Crux--a mercenary company, or in this case black operations bureaucratic body--than they are followers of The Measure and the Chain.
I might be misremembering but I think the Order of the Coil falls into that camp as well.
Yes, I agree.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You guys are starting to make me really want a Hellknight AP to happen and I’m not happy about it
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You guys are starting to make me really want a Hellknight AP to happen and I’m not happy about it
”So tell me again, when did this strange craving first enter your mind? Did you see any suspicious people in the vicinity, anyone casting a spell?”
|
|
Order of the nail is weird in that leader is LE and motivated by personal grudge, but some members are LN and there is one LG centaur among ranks. I can't tell if that is supposed to imply that if Lictor was removed, they could be reformed into more "help build up settlements in frontiers" order rather than the genocidal (culturally and bodily) order they are right now. Still though I imagine that order might fall from primary to small one if everyone who took part in trying to genocide Shoanti was arrested :P I imagine that the part of them who mostly focus on fighting monsters can't be largest part of order just because of Lictor's orders.I want to like this vision for the Order of the Nail, but don't know how they wouldn't just be "the Order that provides violent backing to colonizers" in practice. There's not really a way to safeguard frontier settlements that doesn't involve signing off on encroaching on the land.
Peaceful settlers thing is possible(the problem with colonization was settling lands already inhabited by other people), but yeah there aren't lot of areas in world just inhabited by wild animals(and arguably even that is questionable, just ask druids). Still though, maybe it could work better at least if they were purely defensive order than actively "let's raze and burn this area so its safe"? Hard to say
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like Hellknights do have a slight perception problem. I understand that we've mostly seen them being the evil minions that aid evil people in reinforcing their evil structuress — But overall, they are supposed to be a lawful neutral organization. So, they either gotta do a whole bunch of good as well, or just be so incredibly uh... Lawful? That their evil deeds don't actually matter that much.
Honestly, a HK AP would really help with that blindspot. At least for me! Just saying...
As for the Order of the Nail — These sorts of groups always come off weirdly, but they're not that different to me than Abaderites doing whatever for civilization's sake, or good nations intervening on the legitimacy of non-good nations because "our ways good". Yucky anyway, but if they're not supposed to be evil, then something's gotta give.
I imagine that the Order of the Nail's efforts are not as invasive as they probably sound — focusing on fighting or reducing legitimately dangerous aspects of the wilderness that they face instead of deconstructing whole cultures just because they don't like how their homes look like(Yes, I'm being ironic!). Like... I dunno, there's maybe a lot of road guarding and wolf killing and maaaybe telling some shoantis "hey you guys really need some of our architects" instead of whatever I imagine that they usually would say.
Otherwise, either that Lawful Good Centaur gal has two of her hooves already out of the door, or she just... Bumbled her way through life into that post. There's gotta be some narrative concession there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The order as a whole seems like Mengkare prior to Age of Ashes: tiptoeing right up to the line of evil, leaning over it a fair amount, but not quite crossing it. Some of the individual orders could be neutral in theory, but their sheer harshness and their acceptance of cruelty is, at risk of a pun, damning. The Order of the Torrent is a marked exception to this, they are awesome, but they are also one bright spot in the midst of a mess.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Otherwise, either that Lawful Good Centaur gal has two of her hooves already out of the door, or she just... Bumbled her way through life into that post. There's gotta be some narrative concession there.
Went looking into primary sources on her and the Order of the Nail, and...
Though many Korvosans view the Order with disdain, the colonists remain indebted to the Hellknights for providing protection against indigenous Shoanti barbarians angry at the loss of their lands and bloodthirsty orc raiders.
[...]
Korvosa’s proximity to the native Shoanti lands offered the perfect place to enforce the order’s prime directive: the destruction of the indigenous “primitives” who plagued the area.
[...]
The bridge was named for Paralictor Kaan’s brutal execution of Tungar Oxslayer, jothka of the now-extinct Lamokra tribe of the Sklar-Quah and leader of the Ten-Tribe’s Rebellion.[the text then describes the execution in pretty horrific detail]
I don't think there's any way to rehabilitate this. Path of the Hellknight literally grants Order of the Nail members Favored Enemy against a number of human ethnic groups they label as "primitives." These people are the worst kind of violent colonizer, aiming to exterminate native peoples so that 'civilized' folk can take their land. They are just as bad as the Order of the Coil - indeed, Mwangi show up on that Favored Enemy list.
Interestingly, our Centaur friend is LE in the Guide to Korvosa (2008), LN in Castles of the Inner Sea (2013), LG in PFS#4-13 "Fortress of the Nail" (2013), and LG again in Path of the Hellknight (2016). I'm increasingly skeptical that she's actually Lawful Good. The consistent characterization across each version of her character is "pragmatic" and "disgusted with her own people," and I don't think there's any way to square her complicity in the Order's atrocities with being Good. Especially with her sister being a CG local centaur leader who takes in refugees, I don't see any way to read this character as anything other than a person taking part in the genocide of her own people.
She joined the Hellknights of her own volition, however. Dissatisfied with her peoples’ infatuation with tradition and tribal squabbling, she left Cheliax’s Egobarius Plains soon after witnessing the magnificence of the city of Westcrown.
I loathe this. "Wow, my people could never build cities like you, civilized man; please, let me help you wipe them out!"
EDIT: 2e doesn't seem to think they're any gentler.
Members of the Order of the Nail see civilized society as an ideal and seek to unite all people within their cultural baseline. They also seek to destroy anyone who does not accept Chelaxian culture along with the wild beasts that threaten the safety of civilization.
I'm willing to sort them into the same "stooges for Thrune" camp I mentioned as a good AP antagonist above. Chelish supremacy is an ideological rot within the Hellknights, one that I imagine the Orders of the Scourge and Torrent may need to reckon with soon.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You would almost think she has went through character development with her alignment changes matching over time, but text seems to read more of "this is weird error that keeps being made by typoes/writers/editors for character who is LE counterpart to her CG sister".
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You would almost thing she has went through character development with her alignment changes matching over time, but text seems to read more of "this is weird error that keeps being made by typoes/writers/editors for character who is LE counterpart to her CG sister"
The lictor of her Order is Lawful Evil, and is at least somewhat implied to slowly being driven mad by the same curse that claimed the last two masters of their bastion in Varisia, Citadel Vraid. He's overseeing all this brutal anti-Shoanti and anti-centaur violence, and she's happy to be his Mistress of Blades - I don't see how that's possibly Lawful Good.
Like, the obvious and easy plot here is "the centaur defector with a Good heart takes over the Order from her curse-mad Evil superior," but that's clearly not what's happening here. I'd sooner see her as a boss battle in an AP than any kind of moderating figure, and I'm rooting for a Shoanti or Centaur character to be the one who takes her down.
The best possible version of the Order of the Nail is drafting up precise contracts for terms between settlers and the indigenous folks, but even that is fraught... and with this much blood on their hands, no one should believe them if they pulled back to that now.
|
|
I will add that "mwangi" is likely on that list because Path of Hellknight order abilities are "generic" so they are shared by orders and that ability is shared by Order of the Coil. Still doesn't make it much better since its not too much of stretch to imagine nail to moving down to other areas if they finish off "civilizing Varisia".
Anyway, with the only known LG member of order turning out to be "Likely LE but has randomly changing alignment in print", does sound like that yeah there is no way to redeem this order(since basically every single member who isn't fresh recruit would get thrown to jail :P). That said, their name clearly came from idea of "nail that sticks up gets hammered down", so... I guess they are just another primary order that represents aspect of fascism*. Only thing they have above Order of the Coil is that they don't try to erase their genocide from existence
*gate represents "big brother no privacy surveillance", rack are the thought police, pyre are book burners. Of primary orders only godclaw(they are purely about crusading vs concept of chaos, so they could in theory be bad if not for fact that Law vs Chaos on war scale is rare in setting) and Scourge(anti corruption) aren't really about aspects of fascism per say. Chain is kinda mixed one since its anti criminal one, but if laws are fascist, they would follow on them.
Scourge's anti-corruption directive coming from the top, the Godclaw's more cosmic purpose and Goodly divine influences, and the Torrent's abolitionist work all sort them into the "comparatively alright" bucket of Hellknights, IMO. It's a little bit of a stretch, but between the Scourge's inquiries into Abrogail Thrune II, the Godclaw's ties to Iomedean faith (a known anti-infernal force in Cheliax), and the Torrent's work with Kintargo's rebel-friendly government, that coalition isn't the most unlikely thing.
The Children of Westcrown, Silver Ravens/Firebrands, and Strix are going to hate working with them, though.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The other minor orders were... Order of the Crux is like three grave knight member unofficial destroyed order so I doubt they would be involved unless they get recruited by Geb to became (unofficial official) undead hellknight order and not just "three stronk dudes wanting revenge"
Order of the Glyph I think got wiped out in Hell's Vengeance when Abrogail was like "Hey we need that true history destroyed for plot spoiler reasons(it involved explosions and rituals iirc), so go wipe them out", interestingly they were also allied with Geryon cultists.
Order of the Wall is just order that protect certain border fortress, so they don't really fit much of any active PC group going around adventuring. Order of the Scar are similarly ultra niche since they are hired as bodyguards to catch assassins.
Order of the Pike is honestly probably the good counterpart to Nail. They protect frontiers from monster attack, hunt monsters and are lead by LG lictor.
So that leaves the possible PC good guy side of Hellknight conflict being Torrent, Godclaw(alternatively neutral), Pike, Scourge and possibly Chain(they could be neutral or on bad guy side too).
Neutral side would be Wall, Scar and Pyre(pyre DOES hunt down evil cults, but that also means they don't have reason to take part in this conflict). Bad guy side would be Nail, Rack, Gate and Coil. Wild card "hates everyone" side is Crux :D
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Godclaw is admittedly in a bit of a weird place right now: they recieved a very big boost in popularity after the Wrath of the Righteous PC game thanks to Paralictor Regill Derenge becoming easily THE fan favorite character, since he's a gnome so grim and humorless it wraps back around to being funny (he can become a devil in certain endings and it's noted he finds Hell itself lacking in discipline) and because he's so ruthlessly pragmatic but loyal regardless of your own PC's alignment or decisions (except at the end of the Trickester path, where the chaos achieved shocks and offends him so much it reverses the Bleaching he's suffering from). Still Lawful Evil, though.
The other bit ventures into Hell's Vengeance spoiler territory:
After the Reclamation's defeat, Abrogail claiming Heart's Edge as a trophy and using it to personally execute every member of Iomedae's clergy in Egorian, the Godclaw's in a bit if an awkward position. They probably are in dire need of recruits to build back their numbers, and Iomedaeans looking to survive the now very hostile climate in Cheliax might seek refuge with them, especially after the exile of all non-native-Chelaxian priests of Iomedae, but they may also be more hostile to Iomedaeans in general, feeling betrayed because of how Iomedaeans chose to create chaos in her name, so maybe she's no longer worthy of being considered part of the pantheon.
Exploring the politics of the Godclaw as they rebuild and try to navigate the crackdown on Iomedae's church along with their own personal issues of having failed against the Glorious Reclamation and whether or not they can trust those in their own Order to choose the Five of the Godclaw over the one Iomedae offers a LOT of juicy roleplaying opportunities! >:)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think its important to remember that each of Godclaw's gods' clergy regards Godclaw as heretical. Even Asmodeus' clergy.
Like I don't think they would kick Iomedae out of pantheon because they were already aware that they are making 5 different churches unfriendly towards them :'D From their point of view they have the true understanding of law (and even those worshiping pantheon as whole apparently get spells) and those six other clergies have incomplete foolish view of it and unfortunately they lost the fight of faith with Glorious Reclamation.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Scourge's anti-corruption directive coming from the top, the Godclaw's more cosmic purpose and Goodly divine influences, and the Torrent's abolitionist work all sort them into the "comparatively alright" bucket of Hellknights, IMO. It's a little bit of a stretch, but between the Scourge's inquiries into Abrogail Thrune II, the Godclaw's ties to Iomedean faith (a known anti-infernal force in Cheliax), and the Torrent's work with Kintargo's rebel-friendly government, that coalition isn't the most unlikely thing.
The Children of Westcrown, Silver Ravens/Firebrands, and Strix are going to hate working with them, though.
Do the CoW still exist in any capacity? They didn't make an appearance in Hell Comes to Westcrown, either as boosters of opponents of the GR government, and even if they went underground, they are not terribly likely to have survived the sack of the city.
Do the CoW still exist in any capacity? They didn't make an appearance in Hell Comes to Westcrown, either as boosters of opponents of the GR government, and even if they went underground, they are not terribly likely to have survived the sack of the city.Scourge's anti-corruption directive coming from the top, the Godclaw's more cosmic purpose and Goodly divine influences, and the Torrent's abolitionist work all sort them into the "comparatively alright" bucket of Hellknights, IMO. It's a little bit of a stretch, but between the Scourge's inquiries into Abrogail Thrune II, the Godclaw's ties to Iomedean faith (a known anti-infernal force in Cheliax), and the Torrent's work with Kintargo's rebel-friendly government, that coalition isn't the most unlikely thing.
The Children of Westcrown, Silver Ravens/Firebrands, and Strix are going to hate working with them, though.
I meant to say the Council of Thieves - my apologies! I’m not deep into the Old Cheliax region.
The existence of the 2e Child of Westcrown background is interesting, though.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The existence of the 2e Child of Westcrown background is interesting, though.
The 2E background doesn't establish that the character taking it was or is a member of the CoT group, or establish that the CoT group continues to exist, though it does make a vague gesture at what the AP presumes to be its politics. But using "Child of [Chelish City]" for background traits is something of an established practice - HR had a "Child of Kintargo" campaign trait, for instance.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, there's an advantage there, is there not? ANYONE in Westcrown could reasonably call themselves "a child of Westcrown," so there's no way of knowing which ones are "Children of Westcrown" (or Spartacus), allowing the group to form as needed and then melt back into the civilian populace without a trace. Even in Council of Thieves they were always more a citizen's militia than an outright revolutionary group, their concerns limited to the protection of the city's people and ending the menace of the shadow monsters stalking Westcrown at night. They just happened to be treated as dissidents because the Chelaxian government treats EVERY grassroots movement as a threat whether it is one or not (and because the group's efforts to meet its goal kept brushing up against the wrong side of the law AND the original Council of Thieves' conspiracy).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Poking around a little more, this NPC from Path of the Hellknight seems like one of the only sympathetic souls in the Order of the Nail:
Paravicar Acillmar (LN male human sorcerer 6/ Hellknight signifer 3): The leader of the Order of the Nail’s signifers worries over the state of magic in Varisia. Korvosa’s Acadamae, Magnimar’s Stone of the Seers, Galduria’s Twilight Academy, Varisian fortunetellers, Shoanti shamans, and countless other forces all train new spellcasters—every one of whom is a new match struck over the powder keg of Varisia’s ancient, unfathomable arcane heritage. Acillmar quietly tasks the signifers under his command to confiscate whatever Thassilonian artifacts they come across, so they might be sent back to his peers among other Hellknight orders in the south.
The text goes on to then paint him as profoundly temperamental and obsessed with formality, but the actual work he does makes very good sense. Varisia is sitting on a wealth of what is functionally unexploded ordinance, and yet mages and 'adventurers' persist in shooting firecrackers everywhere. I have to imagine he's beside himself with fear over New Thassilon's existence.
I don't know that there's any saving "savagery must be quelled in the land, home, and mind" Order of the Nail, but a Hellknight Order dedicated to responsible magic use and the securing of artifacts feels like a ready fit and a sound option for an LN, player character-friendly option. Pathfinder has a surprising paucity of anti-mage organizations that aren't "barbarians."
EDIT: This probably makes more sense in the Saga Lands thread.
The 1e Adventurer's Guide presents the Rivethun as being allied with the Order of the Torrent. Has that been elaborated on? I'm curious how an ancient dwarven tradition of spirit-handlers has enough of a tie to a hyper-local Hellknight order with seemingly no overlap in interests.
Are there even dwarves in Ravounel (or wider Old Cheliax) in any major numbers?
|
|
I mean, there are all core ancestries in almost every location in Inner Sea Region. I know that in Kintargo there are several noteworthy dwarf npcs, but they aren't noteworthy enough to be listed in population outside of the "other misc" category.
(kinda funny that order of the torrent isn't mentioned in silver raven allies but its mentioned randomly in rivethun's)
The 1e Adventurer's Guide presents the Rivethun as being allied with the Order of the Torrent. Has that been elaborated on? I'm curious how an ancient dwarven tradition of spirit-handlers has enough of a tie to a hyper-local Hellknight order with seemingly no overlap in interests.
The order of the Torrent seems to be designed to be "the Hellknight Order nobody would find objectionable". Since sure, the Rivethun are against "kidnapping people and holding them for ransom" and think that those people should be freed safely and their kidnappers should be punished instead of rewarded but like the Arclords of Nex, the Technic League, the Eagle Knights, and the Pathfinder Society probably concur here.
But there's like 25 members of the Order so it's probably more about individual members having established relationships with people by helping them.
It just felt like a surprising inclusion, given how far Kintargo is from anywhere with enough dwarven tradition to host Rivethun. I’m sure the Matanji orcs think being your true gender identity is cool, but they aren’t described as allies of the cult of Arshea, y’know?
I wouldn't be so quick to lump the Technic League in with the others. They feel much more like those doing the kidnapping than supporting those who return victims.The 1e Adventurer's Guide presents the Rivethun as being allied with the Order of the Torrent. Has that been elaborated on? I'm curious how an ancient dwarven tradition of spirit-handlers has enough of a tie to a hyper-local Hellknight order with seemingly no overlap in interests.The order of the Torrent seems to be designed to be "the Hellknight Order nobody would find objectionable". Since sure, the Rivethun are against "kidnapping people and holding them for ransom" and think that those people should be freed safely and their kidnappers should be punished instead of rewarded but like the Arclords of Nex, the Technic League, the Eagle Knights, and the Pathfinder Society probably concur here.
But there's like 25 members of the Order so it's probably more about individual members having established relationships with people by helping them.
Yeah, the Technic League were slavers - full stop. They had a public policy of treating all Androids as League property.
They’ve also been scattered to the winds, ruined by the events of Iron Gods and cast out with Kevoth-Kul’d return to lucidity. There is no Technic League any more, just lone mages and technologists out for survival; a handful work for individual warlords, but the organization is broken.
|
|
The only connection I can think of is the cooperation between the Order of the Torrent and the Silver Ravens, one of whom, Rexus Vitocora, is a trans man, and since the Rivethun were kind of depicted as the "cutting edge" of trans healthcare in late 1e Pathfinder, the writers assumed Rexus was in touch with them somehow? There's no indication of that in his backstory, though, where it was a Shelynite tutor that assisted him in realizing his transness.
It's definitely not because Shardra was used as an Iconic for Hell's Rebels, as the illustrations only show Valeros, Lem, Merisiel and Kyra.
Disclaimer: I'm a cis dude, so take this speculation with as much salt as necessary.
The Torrent are one of the Orders most likely to go abroad and actually need the assistance of others, I guess? But yeah that's weird.