What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

1 to 50 of 185 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.

We've had a number of good threads about the Meta-Regions of the Inner Sea that have yet to receive a spotlight book in 2e, and have fostered some of my favorite discussion on these boards; Old Cheliax is the last of the bunch to not be touched on yet, so I figured it's time for one last chat!

Old Cheliax is defined by the titular infernal empire, and more broadly by a darker tone than other parts of the setting. Evil has largely won here, with the Chelish throne still strong with Hell's support, Isger reduced to an extractive vassal state scarred by war, and Nidal in Zon-Kuthon's nightmarish grasp for thousands of years. Ravounel, the young rebel state, is precarious and imperfect, depending on their greatest foe for survival even as they brace for retribution. Halflings live in servitude, while Tieflings are despised and Strix dehumanized. Faiths other than Asmodeus and Zon-Kuthon are under constant threat wherever they aren't actively oppressed. The whole Meta-Region is ripe for grim, gritty intrigues and desperate resistance.

But what does Old Cheliax's future hold? There's a lot of fondness for locales like Westcrown and Kintargo, home to fairly iconic 1e Adventure Paths, but I'm curious what stories remain to be told - especially as someone without that 1e nostalgia. Is Cheliax still a compelling villain, and can it be beaten? Is there any hope for Nidal? More importantly, what's unique and interesting here that I need to know about?

Dark Archive

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Out of all meta regions, Old Cheliax really story about a single country(plus Nidal). Ravounel separated from Cheliax, Isger is vassal of Cheliax... Heck without Old Cheliax meta region I don't think we would ever get Isger book. Poor Isger.

Cheliax's main export in early pathfinder was villains to other aps. Like sure you get to take out pirate king in skulls & shackles, but proper villains behind the plot were the Chelish navy and Thrunes. With focus on other villains this part of Cheliax's role has been lessened, but I imagine there will never really be "take out Cheliax completely" ap due to them kinda having role as the evil-but-not-existential-threat faction. Would be fun to have AP about trolling them by breaking their accord with Asmodeus though :p Council of Thieves and Hell's Rebels/Vengeance mean that Cheliax has probably most AP presence after Varisia, but considering how most of Varisian aps are actually more of "General Varisia aka Runelords ap part 1, 2 and 3, Riddleport/kyonin/darklands ap, Korvosa AP" its much more even than people think.

Anyway, Cheliaxian Heartlands is in general very developed area of the setting, though the other Archduchies (besides Ravounel) could use more development. Hellcoast, Menador, Sirmium and Longmarch do have some of locations, such as their capitals, detailed in Cheliax's campaign setting book, but Ravounel feels very distinct by itself, so I hope we get more development of culture of other archduchies as well. Hellcoast is apparently sparsely populated and its people are independence-minded because Thrune doesn't pay much attention to region due to it being the poorer one. Sirmium is the farmland region and Menador Mountains is a thing. Yeah as said, those archduchies kinda feel like satellites to the Heartlands right now since they aren't as detailed. Either way, Cheliax is large country so it has lot of adventure locales that don't have to relate (but are colored by) the evil government and devil worship. Regardless of whether PCs fight, avoid or work for Thrune, the campaigns in Cheliax have lot of potential to them.

Ravounel I'm bit sketchy on details because while I have read hell's rebels long time ago, I'm also good at forgetting details and I'm currently not rereading because while I was originally considering running it at same time as hell's vengeance one of players did suggest gm swap where one gm plays in other campaign and vice versa (hell's vengeance and hell's rebels don't really spoil each other though its of course fun to write tie ins to connect them) But in Hell's Rebels I do remember you could make alliance with Strix and Aquatic Elves and I'm fairly sure thats canon in 2e so yay for alliance of various people vs evil ;D I just remember impression that Hell's Rebels was one of best 1e era aps, so I have pretty high hopes for ravounel as result.

Isger got lot of good development in Hell's Vengeance post war article that turned out to be not canon in 2e (poor Isger), besides that it sadly never got developed in 1e as its role is mainly to be satellite to Cheliax. It IS location of Goblinblood wars and thus very important region to goblinoid history (and thus to history of Orpak ;D) and it has consistent feature of Daughter of Urgathoa who is raising undead army and preparing for opportunity to attack country. Oh and random mining town with smugglers was location of fun rpg superstar alien invasion module ;D But yeah Isger can be expanded to be more interesting, but it honestly doesn't need to be because of its role. Still though, roleplaying person of vassal country is in itself potential fun so book that really puts you into that mindset of what it feels like to be Isgeri would be good as well.

Nidal is very much the evil version of switzerland of setting :p Doesn't get much featured in adventures because of all the flesh hooks, thoug velstracts are popular foes. They want to be left alone and don't really care what happens outside their borders as long it isn't threat to Nidal. Its campaign setting book is one of best in 1e and its impressive for fleshing out such hard region. Heck nation is basically well developed purely because of single campaign setting book, that is impressive. One of few surface nations you can find Caligni in too.

I'd honestly just recommend reading Nidal land of shadows book for more on Nidal than summarizing any of it. If there is anything I want added for 2e is that I kinda would like more info on Black Triune since 1e left it as "well we aren't going to tell GM what is their CR! You can customize it to your campaign, but this is likely what their class combinations would be" but in 2e npc levels being told in lore books is optional so... Yeah we could definitely hear more on trio of immortal rulers without mechanics being set down x'D


10 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Cheliax is simultaneously in a weaker position and a stronger position compared to where it was when we first met it. Weaker, because it is recovering from an invasion that sparked an uprising, a simultaneous rebellion that took away a province, and a few years prior saw a good chunk of its navy be destroyed by pirates. However, in a way it has also been strengthened. Abrogail has revealed her true personality, and is firmly in charge. House Thrune and the Church of Asmodeus aren't jockeying for power right now, because they both got a kick in their complacency. The uprising revealed and removed more traitors than they expected, and the Church of Iomedae (the internal force most likely to lead a successful resistance) has had its metaphorical back broken. Losing Ravounel was a blow to its ego, but seems to be a good thing on the whole. The Duchy of Ravounel was a hotbed of rebels, but the nation of Ravounel has to play nice or face an invasion it cannot withstand (and just because Cheliax can't touch Ravounel unless provoked, doesn't mean that Nidal can't...) Finally, the Whispering Tyrant's jailbreak has shifted matters significantly. T-B failed at his latest bid for divinity, and the orcs have denied him, but if he rallies other undead to his side he could soon be strong enough to expand his reach through conquest. He's tried it before. Nations that would love to take advantage of Cheliax's weakness now have a more pressing problem. Cheliax's navy is rebuilding but its army has been battle-hardened. The Chelaxian army is likely to play a crucial role in a few years time, and Abrogail is skilled enough to take full advantage of the leverage that gives her now and the leverage that could give her if the army marches.

TL;DR-- Cheliax is currently on the villain backburner, but is poised to make one Hell of a comeback.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I generally agree that Cheliax has made for a good villainous nation and has been handled pretty well I think in the overall plot (as Evan Tarlton described).

Nidal however is the only country in the region that I really hold a ton of interest in, the Nidalese being my favorite ethnicity. Heavily second that Nidal, Land of Shadows is one of the best books from 1e (primarily authored by Liane Merciel, who is my favorite author that Paizo has ever used).

Nidal is weird in that while it's a great place for single adventures, it's actually a very difficult place to set a full AP in. It's honestly a fairly stagnant place, being under control of the Umbral Court/Black Triune for 10,000 years has made it so that any impetus for change would have to be absolutely huge. Two things I have thought of are that could be interesting could be that their alliance with Cheliax is disrupted somehow (whether externally, internally, or most likely both), and Shelyn somehow makes progress with Zon-Kuthon, and causes a big shakeup in the clergy.

Tangentially related, I would be interested in seeing the Forsaken come back into prominence. Ever since Shadows at Sundown revealed that Zon-Kuthon wrecked the strigoi, I've had the headcanon that he's also the cause behind whatever happened to the Forsaken, so seeing them come back could also be some way to shake up Nidal.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Mostly, I just want the reign of Thrune to end, which isn't good material for a sourcebook and probably not a good storyline for the long term health of the setting, so I'm stuck writing my own Cheliax stuff post victory of the Glorious Reclamation.

What would be interesting in an Old Cheliax book is information about succussful rebellion movements. Who are the leaders of the local anti-Thrune organizations how are they still alive, what success have they had? Almost anything to make Abrogail less of a Villain Sue. Cheliax had a history and culture before it became Devil-Land, Golarian's largest exporter of jerks and fascists and that culture is being destroyed and rewritten by the Thrune Dynasty. This is the nation that produced Iomedae, was to be the seat of humanity's golden age and then...Thrune and Asmodeus.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

I feel a lot of nostalgia for this region, but especially for Cheliax. I remember a friend lending me their Inner Sea World Guide to read, quickly turning over the pages and then stopping at Cheliax. I don’t remember why… I think the art had caught my eye. In my fourteen years old edginess, I absolutely loved the concept behind the nation — a realm that once had been chosen by the god of humanity itself, and been the goddess of justice’s birthplace, now reduced to tyranny and malice. And even though they were so clearly the bad guys and supposed to be on decline, they were still considered the strongest military force in the Inner Sea. A thousand of hooks sprung to my mind from reading Cheliax’s chapter alone.

I’ve grown, and my tastes have changed, but I don’t know… It’s hard to not look at the nation fondly.

But, hm… While I appreciate the idea that Cheliax finds itself stronger than before, I’m not so sure that’s exactly what’s been perceived by people, at least not the people around me. In the last two years, I had the pleasure to play with a lot of different people that were also into Golarion, and to my surprise, a lot of these friends don’t actually… Take Cheliax seriously? I don’t know. My own impressions are that Cheliax have been tanking loss after loss. If they are to remain a threat and conflicting point in the Inner Sea, then I really think that they could use some wins.

I’ve never been a fan of evil adventures, but a concept that has always enticed me is something akin to villains saving the day. Having the Infernal Throne (or its agents, in the case of an AP) doing something like that sounds kind of fun? “Oh no, some people in Andoran have opened a second Worlwound, but thankfully we stopped it! Andwecantreallyleavetheregionnowcanwe” Probably something pertaining a properly regional hook, though.

To me, Isger has become another Varisia, i.e land of adventuring. Its dense woods hide many secrets, and the tense relationships that it may foster with other goblinoids due to their past can make for some fun storytelling. What it does have is plenty of potential, right? Like, anything may soon be found in the Chitterwoods deeps. Maybe some mysterious ruins, from an unknown civilization? Maybe they’re from the Ghol-Gan or the Sekmin, somehow! But yeah, I’d love to see new things from Isger. I think they’ve got the potential. There can’t possibly be just goblinoids in the Chitterwoods!

I really like the idea behind Nidal, and I feel like the country is always present but never quite there? I know a lot of Nidal, despite never having read a lot on them. Honestly, of all the nations of Old Cheliax, Nidal seems the most likely to be featured in an eventual AP, imo. I feel like there was an attempt in the start of the edition to make Isger 2e’s Varisia, and we’ve been a loooooot of times in Cheliax. While playing as Desnans being up to something in Nidal is just a story waiting to be told!


3 people marked this as a favorite.
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Nidal however is the only country in the region that I really hold a ton of interest in, the Nidalese being my favorite ethnicity. Heavily second that Nidal, Land of Shadows is one of the best books from 1e (primarily authored by Liane Merciel, who is my favorite author that Paizo has ever used).

You know, I'm not surprised she was the lead on that book at all. She's also written some of the best Cheliax and Nidal-focused Pathfinder Tales novels--Nightglass, Nightblade, and Hellknight--and really has a grip on what makes those LN and LE kinds of organizations interesting.

I'd also like to learn more about Isger. It feels like the next province primed to try breaking away from Cheliax proper with how little support they've been seeing from the motherland, and I'm interested to see if the growing acceptance of goblinoids in the country will lead to any cultural shifts. I hope it does.

I'd also like to learn more about some of Cheliax's more secretive projects, like what the Order of the Glyph (their ersatz hellknight order) is up to, or whatever came of their infernally infused supersoldier program. There are also some other characters, like Count Varian Jeggare and Radovan that I would love to see make it into a notable NPCs section of such a book, and last we'd heard the pair had gone back to Cheliax, with Radovan having been made a lord.

Honestly though, at the end of the day ... Hellknights. I just wanna know more about what they're up to. I'd like more of the Hellknight orders to get feats, for some specific gear, and hopefully a background that makes it easier for characters to get the armor requirements needed to take the archetypes.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Travelling Sasha wrote:
But, hm… While I appreciate the idea that Cheliax finds itself stronger than before, I’m not so sure that’s exactly what’s been perceived by people, at least not the people around me. In the last two years, I had the pleasure to play with a lot of different people that were also into Golarion, and to my surprise, a lot of these friends don’t actually… Take Cheliax seriously? I don’t know. My own impressions are that Cheliax have been tanking loss after loss. If they are to remain a threat and conflicting point in the Inner Sea, then I really think that they could use some wins.

I think this is noteworthy. The Meta-Region is defined by Cheliax's existence and relations with its neighbors, but the Chelish have lost a lot in prior years. Getting their famous fleet blown out by pirates and losing control of Ravounel have definitely made them feel mortal, and even Hell's Vengeance's "victory" was just about keeping what they already had.

Which isn't to say that those events are bad or boring! It's cool to see one of the big bads of Avistan so wounded by "player actions" in Adventure Paths. I'm just curious what role remains to Cheliax, and "revanchist belligerent" just isn't all that interesting - a big Chelish invasion somewhere would feel a little rote at this point, it's not their style.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I think Cheliax really needs to show why they are so useful to Hell. What are they bringing to the diabolic table, so to speak? Likewise, I think they need something that makes them indispensable to the region beyond imperial violence. Something like Geb's breadbasket.

To that end! I want to see more court intrigue for both Nidal and Cheliax. What does it mean to invite shadow into your soul beyond cosplaying Hellraiser? What is Her Infernal Magistrix aiming for and how is it different from what she tells Hell she's aiming for? If we want to round out their evil a bit from mustache-twirling, give them something big against The Whispering Tyrant and play it totally straight (from the outside-looking-in).

...I really like intrigue.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
keftiu wrote:
stuff

I really agree! In my mind, a villain is as threatening as they're menacing. Beat them enough times, and they start to seem more like all bark and no bite — more mortal, as you said. I love that we have experienced Infernal Cheliax so deeply and from so many angles so far... But naturally, that makes them lose some of their mystery. I'd prefer if they were still villains at heart... But nevertheless, I would love some newer prospects for them. I would be a little disappointed if all we see is that their efforts keep getting thwarted at every turn and all the time (and nothing comes out of that, no lesson learned, no internal turnoil, no comeback).

I feel like we're going to hear from them soon. Another user pointed out to me that there's some hooks here and there indicating a potential future conflict between them and Andoran — likely initiated by Andoran. If the Infernal Throne does fall, then I'm curious to what happens to Old Cheliax... I can see Nidal standing up on their own, kind of. As for Isger and Ravounel... Well, I guess that would depend on what happens to the old Cheliax proper.

Saedar wrote:

...I really like intrigue.

I really like intrigue too! Taldor aside, Cheliax does seem like the ideal place for another intrigue campaign.


Travelling Sasha wrote:
keftiu wrote:
stuff

I really agree! In my mind, a villain is as threatening as they're menacing. Beat them enough times, and they start to seem more like all bark and no bite — more mortal, as you said. I love that we have experienced Infernal Cheliax so deeply and from so many angles so far... But naturally, that makes them lose some of their mystery. I'd prefer if they were still villains at heart... But nevertheless, I would love some newer prospects for them. I would be a little disappointed if all we see is that their efforts keep getting thwarted at every turn and all the time (and nothing comes out of that, no lesson learned, no internal turnoil, no comeback).

I feel like we're going to hear from them soon. Another user pointed out to me that there's some hooks here and there indicating a potential future conflict between them and Andoran — likely initiated by Andoran. If the Infernal Throne does fall, then I'm curious to what happens to Old Cheliax... I can see Nidal standing up on their own, kind of. As for Isger and Ravounel... Well, I guess that would depend on what happens to the old Cheliax proper.

Saedar wrote:

...I really like intrigue.

I really like intrigue too! Taldor aside, Cheliax does seem like the ideal place for another intrigue campaign.

Cheliax toppling into a messy civil war once the Thrune "support structure" falls would be really fascinating. Such a conflict would likely have a number of morally-complicated factions and open up a lot of potential for interesting, terribly compromise. Do you ally with, say, a brutal Hellknight Order, who fight well and police the unruly streets but are LE bastards? What about wealthy noble families, keen to save their own skin but not go give up their status and power?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm interested in Ravounel (particularly Vyre) and Nidal primarily in this meta-region.

We've spent a lot of time in Cheliax proper so I think it would be good to focus on everybody else. The Cheliax story in the metaplot is really "how are they going to get along with their neighbors now that the threat of the Whispering Tyrant has created a nominal truce to deal with the mutal threat". So unless they're going to actually kill Abrogail and plunge the country into chaos, we need not enter the borders of Cheliax again until 3rd edition.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I expect that Cheliax's resurgence will be mostly do to its use of diplomacy. Asmodeus gets the other gods to cooperate through charm and reason, not force. Cheliax is in a position where it has to use more diplomacy over intimidation (at least on the world stage; internally is a very different matter). If it gets good at that, its recovery will take less time than it would otherwise. My theory is that the Andoran/Cheliax throw down will be in 3e, after the Tyrant has been dealt with.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

The truce almost certainly benefits Cheliax more than it hurts it, since it was pretty clear from the events of 1e that Cheliax is a bit of a paper tiger with far less control over its populace than it pretended to. The manumission of all-slaves in Absalom sort of puts a major hurt on their economy (and the purpose of their Navy). In the wake of the Glorious Reclamation getting as far as it did, and Ravounel seceding and getting away with it the knives would be out for Cheliax. But good ol' Tar-Baphon provides a "rally around the flag" moment that gets people from thinking too hard from anything except "banding together to ward off the armies of the undead."

The potentially interesting story would be if Abrogail tries to make a secret deal with the Whispering Tyrant, and what would happen if news of this became public.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think cheliax could be location of hellknight ap rather than "fight cheliax" or "be thrune agent, again, ap". That way you get chelish flavor and intrigue, possibly proceed with cheliax becoming more powerful, but without retracing old steps.

(granted, hellknight ap could be about taking down thrune because of the investigation subplot, but I digress)


4 people marked this as a favorite.
CorvusMask wrote:

I think cheliax could be location of hellknight ap rather than "fight cheliax" or "be thrune agent, again, ap". That way you get chelish flavor and intrigue, possibly proceed with cheliax becoming more powerful, but without retracing old steps.

(granted, hellknight ap could be about taking down thrune because of the investigation subplot, but I digress)

A Hellknight AP would feel nice and different from what’s been done before, I think. If it was open to multiple Orders, that could be a lot of fun - and with the Order of the Torrent’s resurgence, you could even justify LG characters!

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's also good excuse for Law vs Chaos AP (edgewatch is more of cops and robbers), like it doesn't need to be LE vs CG ap(that would be okay counter part for hell's vengeance's vs LG nature though), it could be Lawful vs CN protean or mythos cult ap

(law vs chaos would also allow all godclaw gods to be viable deities in ap. And it would also be good free archetype ap for hellknight archetypes!)

Edit: Wait we don't have order of the torrent in 2e yet? We need more orders! x'D

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
keftiu wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

I think cheliax could be location of hellknight ap rather than "fight cheliax" or "be thrune agent, again, ap". That way you get chelish flavor and intrigue, possibly proceed with cheliax becoming more powerful, but without retracing old steps.

(granted, hellknight ap could be about taking down thrune because of the investigation subplot, but I digress)

A Hellknight AP would feel nice and different from what’s been done before, I think. If it was open to multiple Orders, that could be a lot of fun - and with the Order of the Torrent’s resurgence, you could even justify LG characters!

Don't forget Order of the Pike!


One thought - with the Hellknight Archetype not starting until level 6 and not offering your Order Training until level 8, such an AP might be best served as being an 11-20 with Free Archetype. Other factions have lots of room for the full “from day 1 on up” story, but I feel like the Hellknight fantasy fits better with PCs who begin play as scary, competent, powerful people.

Dark Archive

That's true too. Plus its harder to write bunch of armigers who somehow get multiple orders to show up to choose which ones they join yet operate as single party. Plus having to duel devil as caster sounds painful.

With level 11-20 its easier to explain it as "okay pick background feat for your order, this is cross order operation"

(and if its Chelish ap, that way you can avoid claims of too many aps in cleliax cross two editions ;D Aaaaaaaaand if its the law vs chaos ap I dream of, writers don't need to figure out three books worth of more down to earth chaos shenanigans, they can start with big deal maelstrom planar chaos)


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I would be all over a Hellknight AP! 11-20 does sound like a great range for their archetypes. Honestly, there's been a surprisingly odd amount of material enabling Hellknights APs from almost the very start of this edition. Let's put them to use!

Really, I'd be all over any faction-exclusive adventure, but especially a Hellknight's exclusive adventure.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

It being an ap also means it could have special rule like "every character has heavy armor trained profiency and profiency for their order's favored weapon" so that you don't need to play human or use lot of general feats as signifer to qualify for hellknight armiger :3

(that said, it could alternatively be martial heavy campaign)


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I don’t know how it would work, but an evil campaign where the PCs are trying to supplant House Thrune to become the new diabolic overlords of Cheliax sounds like an interesting way to do another evil Cheliax-focused campaign.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I was under the impression that they preferred to do "campaigns where it's valid to be evil" (like Blood Lords, Strange Aeons, Skull & Shackles, Reign of Winter, etc.) than "campaigns where you must be evil."

I'm pretty sure I would skip an AP if I was required to play an evil character in it, but not everything can be for everybody.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
I don’t know how it would work, but an evil campaign where the PCs are trying to supplant House Thrune to become the new diabolic overlords of Cheliax sounds like an interesting way to do another evil Cheliax-focused campaign.

Legends presents Toulon Vidoc, Lictor of the Order of the Scourge, as investigating Abrogail Thrune II for potentially causing the turmoil in Cheliax and for sending Red Mantis Assassins after his people. If he made the explicit call that she’s earned the ire of his Hellknights, I imagine a combination of his reputation and network of owed favors would mean plenty would follow his lead.

You could have PCs of any Lawful alignment: the Orders of the Godclaw and Torrent offer a path to LG Hellknights, while any of the others fit LN and LE just fine.

The Order of the Rack would likely take the side of the throne, which even gives you fun Hellknight-on-Hellknight action.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Since we're probably getting a Hellknights book (because it's one of the 5 major organizations from LOWG and 3 have had books released or solicited already). It makes more sense if we're doing a Cheliax AP to make it Hellknight focused and focus on "Law vs. Chaos" or "Law vs. Law" rather than "Evil vs. Good."

Heck the PCs in the Hellknight AP should be on the side of the Hellknight schism that is not primarily loyal to Thrune.


While I'd love a Hellknight AP, I think it'd fit more as a solitary adventure rather than an extended one, assuming the goal is to have the whole party play as Hellknights. Unlike other organizations like the Pathfinder Society or Magaambya, Hellknights are pretty restrictive in the kinds of characters that are viable. The requirement to wear heavy armor alone is a pretty restrictive requirement, though they do permit some members to wear chunky leather armor when aboard ship. It's the same sort of hurdle as a Red Mantis adventure, which I would also love, in that I think it'd be a really fun idea, but the tight theming and restrictions on character type make it more suitable for something shorter than a full or half AP.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Perpdepog wrote:
While I'd love a Hellknight AP, I think it'd fit more as a solitary adventure rather than an extended one, assuming the goal is to have the whole party play as Hellknights. Unlike other organizations like the Pathfinder Society or Magaambya, Hellknights are pretty restrictive in the kinds of characters that are viable. The requirement to wear heavy armor alone is a pretty restrictive requirement, though they do permit some members to wear chunky leather armor when aboard ship. It's the same sort of hurdle as a Red Mantis adventure, which I would also love, in that I think it'd be a really fun idea, but the tight theming and restrictions on character type make it more suitable for something shorter than a full or half AP.

Is "all Hellknights have to wear heavy armor" really that much more restrictive than "all Magaambyans are arcane or primal spellcasters?" Especially in an 11-20, it's trivial to burn a few Feats on that, and doubly so if the Hellknight Armiger/full Hellknight/Signifer stuff was covered by Free Archetype.

Dark Archive

Yeah, thing is that free archetype rules and possible custom hellknight plate proficiency rules(like how strength of thousand waves away int/wis 14 requirement for wizard/druid archetypes) are benefits of APs like this.

Like Red mantis ap isn't really that restrictive once you get archetype and sawtooth sabre profiency for freebie since they have abilities that are neat for all classes x'D extra spells(especially true strike) and fast heal is nice for anyone

(but yeah I'm disappointed if we get hellknight adventure and its not law vs chaos but law vs law, evil vs evil especially if its vs lawful evil :P like when we get to use sense chaos and smite chaos if not in hellknight adventure? xP)


5 people marked this as a favorite.

One thing I definitely want to see more of from this region: the Strix! They have an amazing, striking visual design, and the hints we have of their lore (they're from Arcadia??) are fascinating - but they still mostly feel like a black box to me.

(Incidentally, this thread persuaded me to throw together a party of Hellknights, and I cast a Strix Ranger rescued from Chelish captivity as the Order of the Torrent representative!)


keftiu wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
While I'd love a Hellknight AP, I think it'd fit more as a solitary adventure rather than an extended one, assuming the goal is to have the whole party play as Hellknights. Unlike other organizations like the Pathfinder Society or Magaambya, Hellknights are pretty restrictive in the kinds of characters that are viable. The requirement to wear heavy armor alone is a pretty restrictive requirement, though they do permit some members to wear chunky leather armor when aboard ship. It's the same sort of hurdle as a Red Mantis adventure, which I would also love, in that I think it'd be a really fun idea, but the tight theming and restrictions on character type make it more suitable for something shorter than a full or half AP.
Is "all Hellknights have to wear heavy armor" really that much more restrictive than "all Magaambyans are arcane or primal spellcasters?" Especially in an 11-20, it's trivial to burn a few Feats on that, and doubly so if the Hellknight Armiger/full Hellknight/Signifer stuff was covered by Free Archetype.

A bit more restrictive, yes. Where do monks fit into that paradigm, for example? Strength of Thousands works because bolting magic on doesn't shut off any class options; it's an extra, not a requirement.

Again, I'm just pointing out this rule would make a Hellknight adventure more fit for a Pathfinder Adventure product, rather than an Adventure Path, not that it'd be unsuitable period.

Dark Archive

Sidenote, does monk with armor lose anything besides speed increase?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
CorvusMask wrote:
Sidenote, does monk with armor lose anything besides speed increase?

Many stances are incompatible with armor.

Crane, Dragon, Monastic Archery, Mountain, Rain of Embers, Reflective Ripple, Stoked Flame, Tiger, and Wolf of the level 1 stances all have "Requirement: You are unarmored."

That leaves, I think, just Gorilla and Stumbling.

Dark Archive

Hmm I checked all of them, seems like all stances from core rulebook have that requirement while none of ones from advanced player's guide do.

I dunno if that is error or intentional choice but interesting nonethless.


There's value in having some stances for unarmed combat to allow some armor, for like a fighter multiclassing in the monk, or someone who takes the Martial Artist archetype.

It's just funny that one of these is the Stumbling Stance, since the second feat in that one needs Flurry of Blows to work.

Radiant Oath

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It took a while to respond to this one because everyone was pretty much saying what *I* wanted to see more of! :P

That said, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is I'd like to see more on the resurrected Council of Thieves in Westcrown. It surprised me when they made an appearance in 1e's Adventurer's Guide, since by the end of the AP of the same name, the Council had all but destroyed itself. But seeing the new direction it went in was very cool; its connections to Westcrown's history, its explicit rejection of Norgorber's faithful (a relief in my eyes, it honestly felt before this like Norgorber's cult had a monopoly on "thieves' guild" style organizations), and the fact that it's run by a very goth polycule including a non-evil drow all gave it a whole lot of personality, even though they basically didn't get another mention for the rest of 1e (unless they featured in some PFS scenario or something. <_< ).

Westcrown in general holds a very special place in my heart. Council of Thieves was one of the first APs I ever bought the books for (it had the initial article about Iomedae's faith), plus it was the first AP written for Pathfinder as a system (everything prior had been 3.5 D&D)! The city's gorgeous and evocative, and it broke my heart to see it suffer in the final chapter of the Hell's Vengeance AP.

Dark Archive

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Council of Thieves is fascinating. It went from thieves guild to secret mafia white collar crime to "Literal son of devil is doing coup, conspiracy got conspiracy'd!" to "we are now phantom thieves!"

They now being about flashy sensational heists really is what you'd imagine from hearing the name you have to admit xD Though granted, one of good thing about the AP was lore of true history of Council of Thieves. Even my players who were pretty meh about all the rogues thought it was actually pretty cool reveal of who they really are.

I forgot 2e hasn't yet mentioned the new version of Council of Thieves which is bit of bummer, hope to hear more of them soon :D


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Westcrown in general holds a very special place in my heart. Council of Thieves was one of the first APs I ever bought the books for (it had the initial article about Iomedae's faith), plus it was the first AP written for Pathfinder as a system (everything prior had been 3.5 D&D)! The city's gorgeous and evocative, and it broke my heart to see it suffer in the final chapter of the Hell's Vengeance AP.

Yeah, our Hell's Vengeance game (which was already kind of swimming upsteam) went badly off the rails in the last book because we, as players, had already grown fond of Westcrown from Council of Thieves. This was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of "maintaining our characters disliked their antagonists more than their bosses".

Hell's Vengeance might be the one AP where "a specific group of players arrived at the canon ending" is the least common.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, I've been hesitant to try and get into a Hell's Vengeance campaign for that exact reason. Even though the final book is...kind of...restrained? in the damage the PC's do to the city and sundry (in the days leading up to Hell Comes To Westcrown's release I believed, given Abrogail Thrune II's reputation for being so ruthless she has a PIT FIEND advising her on restraint, she'd accept nothing less than Westcrown being razed to the ground in retaliation), if I were to have played through Council of Thieves beforehand (tried a couple of times, but never got off the ground, that's another one where I have a specific character concept I've wanted to play for YEARS), I'd HAVE to imagine the Children of Westcrown wouldn't take a Thrune counter-revolution sitting down...and if the Hell's Vengeance PC's want to win, that would necessitate some kind of pseudo-PVP unless, like the books are written, that aspect is completely ignored. Either option's depressing.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
keftiu wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
I don’t know how it would work, but an evil campaign where the PCs are trying to supplant House Thrune to become the new diabolic overlords of Cheliax sounds like an interesting way to do another evil Cheliax-focused campaign.

Legends presents Toulon Vidoc, Lictor of the Order of the Scourge, as investigating Abrogail Thrune II for potentially causing the turmoil in Cheliax and for sending Red Mantis Assassins after his people. If he made the explicit call that she’s earned the ire of his Hellknights, I imagine a combination of his reputation and network of owed favors would mean plenty would follow his lead.

You could have PCs of any Lawful alignment: the Orders of the Godclaw and Torrent offer a path to LG Hellknights, while any of the others fit LN and LE just fine.

The Order of the Rack would likely take the side of the throne, which even gives you fun Hellknight-on-Hellknight action.

IIRC a pretty disgusting, likely CE, cult with some worm-obsession is pulling the strings that set Vidoc and Abrogail at each other's throat.

Finding about this and preventing a hellknight civil war might make for a good AP.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Evan Tarlton wrote:
I expect that Cheliax's resurgence will be mostly do to its use of diplomacy. Asmodeus gets the other gods to cooperate through charm and reason, not force. Cheliax is in a position where it has to use more diplomacy over intimidation (at least on the world stage; internally is a very different matter). If it gets good at that, its recovery will take less time than it would otherwise. My theory is that the Andoran/Cheliax throw down will be in 3e, after the Tyrant has been dealt with.

I would love for Cheliax to become the architect of a UN-like organization of nations to provide a unified front against Tar-Baphon.

These would include Andoran, Belkzen, maybe Galt, Molthune, Nirmathas, Oprak...

And as one of the first founding members, Cheliax would have a permanent seat on the ruling council, with the right to veto.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I feel like the issue about making "preventing a Hellknight Civil War" as an AP premise is that the Hellknights are the one major organization that people are most likely to believe "it would be good if they ceased to exist entirely." So I think a lot of players would rather fight a Hellknight Civil War than prevent one.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like the issue about making "preventing a Hellknight Civil War" as an AP premise is that the Hellknights are the one major organization that people are most likely to believe "it would be good if they ceased to exist entirely." So I think a lot of players would rather fight a Hellknight Civil War than prevent one.

Exactly, and the Hellknights could burnish their reputation a fair bit by slapping down those of their kind loyal to the Chelish throne.


Like of the 5 major organizations in the LOWG (or the LOCG, I forget) the Hellknights are the one organization that doesn't have a lot of positive things to put on their resume. The Magaambya and the Knights of Lastwall are affirmatively about good, and the Pathfinder Society and Firebrands have affected some meaningful positive change (freeing Ranginori, liberating Vidrian, etc.)

Other than "maintaining order in Cheliax" and "propping up the regime" there's not a lot we can point to the Hellknights doing that anybody else would get behind. I'm not saying that there isn't a case for the Hellknights, but any sort of Hellknight AP would have to make that case pretty strongly right up front.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Like of the 5 major organizations in the LOWG (or the LOCG, I forget) the Hellknights are the one organization that doesn't have a lot of positive things to put on their resume. The Magaambya and the Knights of Lastwall are affirmatively about good, and the Pathfinder Society and Firebrands have affected some meaningful positive change (freeing Ranginori, liberating Vidrian, etc.)

Other than "maintaining order in Cheliax" and "propping up the regime" there's not a lot we can point to the Hellknights doing that anybody else would get behind. I'm not saying that there isn't a case for the Hellknights, but any sort of Hellknight AP would have to make that case pretty strongly right up front.

The Order of the Godclaw contributed to the crusades against the fiends of the Worldwound and is open to LG followers; only one of the five gods in their pantheon is Evil. The Order of the Torrent has the noblest goal of the bunch (rescue the kidnapped, including the enslaved) and is openly allied with the government of Kintargo, in Ravounel. “Holy slayer of demons” and “savior of captives” are both PC concepts nobody would bat an eye at.

Add in that the Order of the Scourge takes a dim view of corruption and abuses of power (see Vidoc’s feud with Abrogail Thrune II) and that the Order of the Gate’s focus on extraplanar matters is morally-neutral, and suddenly the Hellknights aren’t all merely jackbooted thugs in service to total oppression. They’re definitely the least-nice of the five organizations in LOCG, but there’s still plenty of room for sympathetic or outright heroic Hellknights.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
keftiu wrote:
Add in that the Order of the Scourge takes a dim view of corruption and abuses of power (see Vidoc’s feud with Abrogail Thrune II) and that the Order of the Gate’s focus on extraplanar matters is morally-neutral, and suddenly the Hellknights aren’t all merely jackbooted thugs in service to total oppression. They’re definitely the least-nice of the five organizations in LOCG, but there’s still plenty of room for sympathetic or outright heroic Hellknights.

I do agree that there’s opportunities for heroic Hellknights, but it was the destroyed Order of the Vice that dealt with extra planar matters. The Gate is fairly explicitly LE and focuses on crime prevention via highly invasive divination/surveillance.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Add in that the Order of the Scourge takes a dim view of corruption and abuses of power (see Vidoc’s feud with Abrogail Thrune II) and that the Order of the Gate’s focus on extraplanar matters is morally-neutral, and suddenly the Hellknights aren’t all merely jackbooted thugs in service to total oppression. They’re definitely the least-nice of the five organizations in LOCG, but there’s still plenty of room for sympathetic or outright heroic Hellknights.
I do agree that there’s opportunities for heroic Hellknights, but it was the destroyed Order of the Vice that dealt with extra planar matters. The Gate is fairly explicitly LE and focuses on crime prevention via highly invasive divination/surveillance.

You’re totally right! I must have confused them.

A returned Order of the Vice, or maybe even just the appearance of a ghost of theirs, might make for a fun inciting incident for a Hellknight AP.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

There's also the Order of the Pike who fend off monster attacks. IIRC they waffle a bit on whether they're good or not though, mostly based on what the Lictor de jour considers a "monster."

I suppose there is also the Order of the Scar? They hunt down assassins, and in general I'd argue assassinations are bad.

Dark Archive

Order of the Scar bit harder for player faction though because they are pretty much bodyguards for hire


1 person marked this as a favorite.

With the note in Legends that Vidoc wants to investigate the crimes of the Order of the Coil (formerly of Sargava), I have to wonder if the Order of the Nail's days are numbered. They're both organizations of racist militants.

1 to 50 of 185 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.