What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

151 to 185 of 185 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh wow hahaha, that post above was so long that I kind of made some weird spelling mistakes. Anyways, I meant " even after her own herald ascended...", and "Let the devil worshipping nation act develishly!". x(

How do we feel about an internal Hellknight reform storyline? "Too much evil too little law something something, the orders have been swayed away of their original intentions, Hell's hierarchy is fine but Hell's methods is NOT leading to more order", ascension of an order based on the order of the Axis or even Heaven instead of actual Hell, etc?

Axisknights or Heavenknight do not sound as cool as Hellknights, objectively speaking... And I don't think we have to go there? But I'd be open to exploring that theme and idea, as long as their visual identity is preserved. Yes yes, I like buff people in edgy armors, sue me!

But I'm curious to see what people think. To me, that Hellknights are supposed to be altogether LN is still odd, and there's so many weird situations, like the Order of the Nail's; considering the info that keftiu dug up... I'd personally preffer seeing them in less evil situations as to justify this, but maybe it's a little too late for even that?

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

sidenote, I find it hilarious for Hellknights of Damerrich isn't a thing, so there is even smaller cult of edgy armor people going around ensuring that people aren't wrongfully executed x'D


The Hellknights got a slot alongside the Pathfinder Society, Firebrands, Knights of Lastwall, and Magaambya in LOCG, so I assume they’re meant to be a headlining faction eventually… but unless there’s some kind of reconciliation with what the Hellknights have been (tools of Thrune, agents of colonial violence and genocide), it’s awfully difficult to see them as Good or even Neutral.

I would hope for a proper schism to have occurred by the time PC Hellknights get the spotlight. As their lore currently stands, they’re magical Gestapo who either serve Cheliax or are stateless vigilantes - something any sane Goodly folk should bar from their borders.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
keftiu wrote:

The Hellknights got a slot alongside the Pathfinder Society, Firebrands, Knights of Lastwall, and Magaambya in LOCG, so I assume they’re meant to be a headlining faction eventually… but unless there’s some kind of reconciliation with what the Hellknights have been (tools of Thrune, agents of colonial violence and genocide), it’s awfully difficult to see them as Good or even Neutral.

I would hope for a proper schism to have occurred by the time PC Hellknights get the spotlight. As their lore currently stands, they’re magical Gestapo who either serve Cheliax or are stateless vigilantes - something any sane Goodly folk should bar from their borders.

Considering that their whole thing is law above all else and that they value results more than morality or methods. Yeah the organization is very much LN to its very core. Because they are all about law, and that they are originally from cheliax, its really no surprised that there would be plenty of questionable hellknights. They really have no chill.

The reason you bring in hellknights is the order that they promise. If you welcomed a Hellknight to a country were the law was "every friday is a party" they would 100% police it so that everyone is partying. Similarly, if you welcome a Hellknigbt to a country where the law is "cut the hands of all thieves" they would 100% police that so that all caught thieves are handless. That's why its hard to see them as good or neutral. Most of the areas that they police are evil or neutral, and their methods are usually not conductive to freedom which is often seen as evil: Even though its an expression of extreme lawfulness to try and reduce chaos (freedom) at all cost.

As for schisms there already have been schisms, but those are very violent and bloody.

****************

They are a headlining faction. But they are not headlining because they are good, its because of their extreme and wide reach against anything that might be even remotely chaotic.


As far as Hellknights go, what I most want to see is a clear definition of what laws they actually enforce. They have the whole Measure and Chain thing, but they also seem to enforce the laws of whoever hires them, but they can also be hired by non-governmental officials. It's just really hard for me to see them as lawful when the underlying structures that should inform their decision making process are so unclear/undefined.

Another thing that I would enjoy, but should probably be handled via story rather than background is unifying the Hellknights more. Right now the Orders are more like begrudging rival allies rather than a cohesive unit, which is another thing that makes it hard to see them as lawful. Ideally the Scourge would head this (possibly as a way to help survive/combat Abrogail), but I wouldn't even really mind if it was a different Order, so long as they all were unified.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Okay, so I dug around a little and found some interesting information on the Measure and the Chain, on the Character's Guide. To recapitulate:

Character's Guide:
The Measure is the order's massive collection of laws and strictures. It seems to be their code, and because it's supposed to be so massive, I don't think we'll ever see it explicitly defined. And so, it remains a narrative resource, I guess.

The Chain, however, is their actual philosophy, and it's pretty well defined. It concerns itself with three virtues: Order, discipline, and mercilessness. "But Sasha", you might say. "aren't those just abstractly-defined words? What does mercilessness even mean, if not cruelty? What's the difference between order and discipline?" Thankfully, the virtues are further defined!

Order is to be enforced — as to create a world that is so structured and peaceful that it no longer needs them. The order must also be punitive, and so it is correct to punish those that hold back that progress. To me then, they're militant: They seek to create a peaceful word through such order, and will fight for it.

Peace is not defined by the Chain, so there's a lot to prod there.

Discipline is about emotions. Achievment is obtained without loss, and so, emotions are, at best, a hindrance. Especially fear, which Hellknights will attempt to weaponize against their enemies. To them, it is through such discipline that they may obtain victory.

Mercilessness is an interesting one. Mercilessness teaches them that all are guilty, even Hellknights themselves, and compassion is damaging to society and ultimately inhibits social progress. As such, none is truly worthy of mercy.

Reading their entry on the Character's Guide, they come off as very self policing. It also mentions that there is room for morality and goodness in the orders, and while many evil hopefuls might think that they might found shelter within the ranks, they themselves end up being punished for their capriciousness just as much the enemies of the order.

The Measure not being defined itself gives writers room to pull whatever from whenever — which is both good and bad, I guess. Maybe there's a hidden line somewhere about excessive cruelty or whatever.

I will also point out that the Character's Guide really seems to portray the incredibly problematic Order of the Nail as "Adventurers - The Order", although they're not really well developed there I guess. Isn't it possible that they have been retconned or corrected in the second edition? We've been told that Paizo prefers to deal with things like this in that way, no?

I know that there's at least one kind of member of the Order of the Nail that comes off as incredibly reasonable in one of the APs, for example.

Radiant Oath

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It is worth noting too that there IS an element of hypocrisy to the ideal of emotionlessness the Hellknights strive for, right from the very start: Daidan Rhul's motivations were grief at his wife's murder and son's suicide, and rage at the cultists responsible for both, as well as the inaction of those who could have stopped it, ESPECIALLY the Church of Aroden. The original Hellknights more or less coalesced around him rather than being actively recruited, and codified that "lack of chill." I don't know if irony is the right word, but it's interesting to me that an organization preaching emotionless detachment to avoid clouding one's judgment is effectively very, VERY angry at the world for not adhering to the ideal lawfulness they wish it could.

It's kind of a theme that's writ larger across Cheliax as a whole and maybe even across the whole of Hell itself: they claim to be rational and ruthless because it's the only way to bring order and peace, but down at the core it's a much more emotional, IRRATIONAL motivation, angrily lashing out at a universe they think hurt them somehow. Whether it's Daidan Rhul carving a bloody swathe through Westcrown to avenge the deaths of his family, Abrogail Thrune Personally murdering Egorian's entire Iomedaean clergy with Iomedae's own sword out of spite for the Glorious Reclamation, Cheliax as a whole turning to diabolism and evil because they felt their grand destiny was denied because Aroden didn't have the decency to stay alive when he was supposed to, or Asmodeus himself murdering his brother Ihys for choosing the happiness of mortals over his brother's, it's emotional overreactions to bad turns of fate all the way down...


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Travelling Sasha wrote:
The Measure not being defined itself gives writers room to pull whatever from whenever — which is both good and bad, I guess. Maybe there's a hidden line somewhere about excessive cruelty or whatever.

I'm not so much worried about what the Measure actually says, as I am how it's prioritized. Like when Queen Domina invited the Hellknights to Korvosa, it seems like they don't actually uphold Korvosan law, but instead hold up the Measure and Chain. Which I don't mind at all, and actually like, but it leads into several problems that to the best of my knowledge haven't been addressed in text before.

How are criminals prosecuted? Is it possible to be charged for the same crime by both the state and the Hellknights? Can you appeal to the state/Hellknights if you've done something that breaks the law for one but not the other? How does sentencing work if the different laws/judges have the same crimes but not the same punishments?

This seems like it'd be a significant issue specifically in Cheliax. While I recognize that the Measure is based on a combination of Chelish, Taldan, and Hellish law, that still leaves a LOT of chances for significant differences to come up. How are those differences resolved?

I'm just very curious how having an extra-governmental agency that polices an entirely different law set works in practice, and how that differs between orders and countries.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Travelling Sasha wrote:
The Measure not being defined itself gives writers room to pull whatever from whenever — which is both good and bad, I guess. Maybe there's a hidden line somewhere about excessive cruelty or whatever.

I'm not so much worried about what the Measure actually says, as I am how it's prioritized. Like when Queen Domina invited the Hellknights to Korvosa, it seems like they don't actually uphold Korvosan law, but instead hold up the Measure and Chain. Which I don't mind at all, and actually like, but it leads into several problems that to the best of my knowledge haven't been addressed in text before.

How are criminals prosecuted? Is it possible to be charged for the same crime by both the state and the Hellknights? Can you appeal to the state/Hellknights if you've done something that breaks the law for one but not the other? How does sentencing work if the different laws/judges have the same crimes but not the same punishments?

This seems like it'd be a significant issue specifically in Cheliax. While I recognize that the Measure is based on a combination of Chelish, Taldan, and Hellish law, that still leaves a LOT of chances for significant differences to come up. How are those differences resolved?

I'm just very curious how having an extra-governmental agency that polices an entirely different law set works in practice, and how that differs between orders and countries.

This is what makes them interesting and why Paizo keeps releasing content for them.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think playing a Hellknight with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Measure and the Chain and using it for good purposes by citing deliberately contradictory statutes and being as obstructive and annoyingly bureaucratic as possible towards the bad guys would be a lot of fun to play.

"You wanna arrest these citizens who are peacefully assembling? I don't see an Arrest Warrant 27B-6, buddy! No, it DOESN'T matter if the courthouse stopped printing those forms 20 years ago, the law's still on the books, so it's still enforceable, and by the Godclaw, I'm gonna enforce it!"

"We need to open the granary and distribute the food the baron's hoarding? Okay, if we go to the third floor, speak with Eleanor and ask for an Emergency Requisition 33Z-8, bring that to Tomasso in Produce Distribution, then take what HE gives us to the granary, the guards will just let us right in, and even the baron can't argue with his own seal."


2 people marked this as a favorite.

They haven't done anything with the Hellknights since publishing the three archetypes have they? It's perhaps possible that they thought that people would be more excited to be Hellknights than they have been, but more probably there's just a lot more books to publish than they have the time and resources to publish and it hasn't come up yet.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
They haven't done anything with the Hellknights since publishing the three archetypes have they? It's perhaps possible that they thought that people would be more excited to be Hellknights than they have been, but more probably there's just a lot more books to publish than they have the time and resources to publish and it hasn't come up yet.

I think the more likely explanation is that we haven’t really been anywhere near Hellknight lands, outside of a single AP volume set in Ravounel. They don’t tend to operate on Absalom or the Impossible Lands, and the ones that were in the Mwangi Expanse are probably being hunted to extinction by Vidrian’s agents if they weren’t already.

We got a Knights of Lastwall book without an Eye of Dread one, and it remains to be seen if the Firebrands book will pair with 2023’s big setting book (I don’t expect it will), so who knows. Hellknights in 2024 wouldn’t surprise me.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
keftiu wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
They haven't done anything with the Hellknights since publishing the three archetypes have they? It's perhaps possible that they thought that people would be more excited to be Hellknights than they have been, but more probably there's just a lot more books to publish than they have the time and resources to publish and it hasn't come up yet.

I think the more likely explanation is that we haven’t really been anywhere near Hellknight lands, outside of a single AP volume set in Ravounel. They don’t tend to operate on Absalom or the Impossible Lands, and the ones that were in the Mwangi Expanse are probably being hunted to extinction by Vidrian’s agents if they weren’t already.

We got a Knights of Lastwall book without an Eye of Dread one, and it remains to be seen if the Firebrands book will pair with 2023’s big setting book (I don’t expect it will), so who knows. Hellknights in 2024 wouldn’t surprise me.

There have been standalone adventures in Old Cheliax, but the only one I'm even passingly familiar with was the haunted house one in western Ravounel (which dear God did that feel like a retread of the Misgivings), and that one only involved Hellknights as the least relevant part of its backstory, explaining that the town the haunted house was in got built as a depot for masonry bound for Citadel Enferac, and that it got abandoned after the Hellknights there completed their building project.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As one of my favorite PCs is a former Order of the Nail Hellknight who abandoned the order after falling in love with an Ulfen druid in a very accidental parallel to Disney's horribly inaccurate take on Pocahontas, the concept of a Hellknight AP + a massive reformation of Cheliax AP would be... amazing. I have so much invested in the area and how a reformed/revolutionary Cheliax would look!

Consider this: Cheliax has a major revolt. Taldor, recently now under the rule of a new regime which was brought about partially by 'a group of heroes', along with Ravounel having the same, I imagine they put a LOT of effort into assisting the rebels. Nidal would be assumed to stand with Cheliax, but what if a major part of the AP is convincing Nidal to stand down? Since 'kill the evil super powered queen and save the nation' has already been done with CotCT, a more War for the Crown take on a Chelaxian Civil War would be a fantastic way to go, imo. Center the whole thing on the PCs being from one of the former Chelaxian colonies/vassals, or a citizen of Cheliax itself and tying the backgrounds into that.

Radiant Oath

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I can agree with the sentiment, but I don't think that's the direction Paizo's currently going in, at least at the moment.

Abrogail II was honestly very lucky Tar-Baphon broke out when he did, as he's largely occupying the attention of would-be heroes both in and out of Cheliax: any native Iomedaeans chafing under increased persecution can make their way to the Gravelands to join the Knights of Lastwall on the front lines, and any foreign-born ones tempted to defy her ban and sneak into Cheliax are also diverting to the Gravelands where they feel the more dangerous evil is at the moment.

The vibe I'm getting from Cheliax at the moment is they're the ally no one likes, but they're being tolerated because they're not being actively destructive the way the Worldwound was or how The Whispering Tyrant is now. She blatantly gave Iomedae the finger by using the goddess' OWN SWORD to personally execute EVERY member of Iomedae's Egorian priesthood on a technicality during what was supposed to just be an acceptance of their surrender, and the rest of the Inner Sea has been forced to kind of just let that slide for the moment because they've got undead rampaging in the heart of Avistan to worry about. And she hasn't even cleaned the blood off Heart's Edge yet. The scars left by the Glorious Reclamation's defeat are still pretty fresh, and I imagine it's going to take a while before any similar movement (most likely the Firebrands) feels an opportunity to succeed where they failed has presented itself.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

It is worth noting too that there IS an element of hypocrisy to the ideal of emotionlessness the Hellknights strive for, right from the very start: Daidan Rhul's motivations were grief at his wife's murder and son's suicide, and rage at the cultists responsible for both, as well as the inaction of those who could have stopped it, ESPECIALLY the Church of Aroden. The original Hellknights more or less coalesced around him rather than being actively recruited, and codified that "lack of chill." I don't know if irony is the right word, but it's interesting to me that an organization preaching emotionless detachment to avoid clouding one's judgment is effectively very, VERY angry at the world for not adhering to the ideal lawfulness they wish it could.

It's kind of a theme that's writ larger across Cheliax as a whole and maybe even across the whole of Hell itself: they claim to be rational and ruthless because it's the only way to bring order and peace, but down at the core it's a much more emotional, IRRATIONAL motivation, angrily lashing out at a universe they think hurt them somehow. Whether it's Daidan Rhul carving a bloody swathe through Westcrown to avenge the deaths of his family, Abrogail Thrune Personally murdering Egorian's entire Iomedaean clergy with Iomedae's own sword out of spite for the Glorious Reclamation, Cheliax as a whole turning to diabolism and evil because they felt their grand destiny was denied because Aroden didn't have the decency to stay alive when he was supposed to, or Asmodeus himself murdering his brother Ihys for choosing the happiness of mortals over his brother's, it's emotional overreactions to bad turns of fate all the way down...

Yes. Lawful Evil (and Evil generally) is described as pretty incompetent and irrational. It is a disservice to the setting IMO.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I mean, "Evil" isn't supposed to make a strong argument to the *players*. The bad guys are supposed to have flawed reasoning, and the good guys are supposed to win in the end. Evil isn't supposed to be as valid a choice as "not-evil".

I will note that the incompetence of evil is mostly in the context of Cheliax (no one ever said that Geb or Nidal weren't competent)- it's because the powers of Cheliax claim to have an orderly, tightly controlled, disciplined society. But this sanctimoniousness is intentional- one of the main ways that Cheliax differs from real world fascist societies (and thus doesn't read as an expy of such) is that Cheliax embraces its libertine nature and aesthetic "degeneracy".

Dark Archive

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, "Evil" isn't supposed to make a strong argument to the *players*. The bad guys are supposed to have flawed reasoning, and the good guys are supposed to win in the end. Evil isn't supposed to be as valid a choice as "not-evil".

I will note that the incompetence of evil is mostly in the context of Cheliax (no one ever said that Geb or Nidal weren't competent)- it's because the powers of Cheliax claim to have an orderly, tightly controlled, disciplined society. But this sanctimoniousness is intentional- one of the main ways that Cheliax differs from real world fascist societies (and thus doesn't read as an expy of such) is that Cheliax embraces its libertine nature and aesthetic "degeneracy".

Sidenote, this is one of reasons I made alternate alignment system for my kingdom building homebrew. Because "Balance between extremes" ISN'T valid philosophy when two of them are good and evil :'D And I wanted to go for Shin Megami Tensei-ish things for this one, so I wanted to clarify what each alignment means by giving them more distinct names as well

(second thing that I did in my homebrew was to frame it as "everyone is unaligned until they choose to pledge" since its basically same as normal alignment, but changes framing from "This is how character is" to "this is how character chooses to be")

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Do we have any evil in Golarion that actually feels dangerous and threatening ?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Raven Black wrote:
Do we have any evil in Golarion that actually feels dangerous and threatening ?

Nidal is terrifying but it's not expansionist. So long as you don't end up there, you're fine. Geb is pretty horrific, but plays nice with its neighbors (for sinister reasons). The Red Mantis on Mediogalti Island seem to have their act together. Tar-Baphon is the metaplot big bad. The rulers of Ustalav seem like people whose attention you really don't want. Mzali is a pretty dire place to live near.

I mean, considering we're in the business of "solving problems with groups of 3-6 heroes" structurally the threats that we posit have to be solvable by said groups. Cheliax was a bit of a punching bag in 1e because they committed the sin of "being imperialists" (among myriad other sins) so "let's thwart Cheliax" was easy and fun. It's probable that we need another new threat somewhere that's scary and competent, but that shouldn't be Cheliax.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
The Raven Black wrote:
Do we have any evil in Golarion that actually feels dangerous and threatening ?

Nidal.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

To be fair, Cheliax CAN be dangerous and threatening. That's what the Hell's Vengeance AP is all about: letting you BE the competent Evil characters. I just wish it had been more flexible with how dirty your hands had to get to reach the desired outcomes, because a lot of the things you're asked to do just seemed unnecessarily edgy for edginess' sake...


5 people marked this as a favorite.

We're only 2 volumes in, but it really feels like Blood Lords is the better Hell's Vengeance. You're agents of nefarious powers in an evil kingdom, but you're lined up against other agents of nefarious powers whose agenda you disagree with. It's a story that is wholly amenable to evil characters, but doesn't make it impossible to be a decent person who's just trying to make the best of the messed up situation they find themselves living in.

My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."

This is less a problem with the AP than with your expectations of patriots, Chelish or otherwise. Brutal civil wars do tend to bring out the murderhobos, especially (though by no means exclusively) in the "party of order."


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Sure, a civil war is going to bring out all sorts of terrible people, but the PCs shouldn't be the vanguard of transgressions. There should be others who cross the various lines and the PCs should be the people considering whether or not *they* want to cross those lines.

Like the basic assumption of the campaign should be "are you willing to do evil to get what you want" and not "you're evil, so we need to reinforce this by making you do evil stuff." Since, like, in Blood Lords what the PCs want in the immediate term is not itself bad (you're essentially trying to prevent deadly poisons from being put into the food supply), but the temptation is to cross all manner of lines in order to make sure this doesn't happen.

"Evil as a tempting force" makes more sense narratively than "evil as a valid alternative."


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I mean that's why you have Hell's Vengeance and Hell's Rebel. If you are good and don't like how Thrune does things you play the Rebel game; If you are good and like thrune, you are set up for an interesting moral dilemma in Vengeance of "how far are you willing to go for your country". On the other hand if you are evil and like thrune you play vengeance; But if you are evil and dislike thrune you can play Rebel to try and impose your own ideology. Its not about evil being tempting or a valid alternative. Its a matter of "what does your character think is best for them?"

I think that might be one of the biggest hiccups with evil nations. The alignment of the country does not determine how valid that country is or whether the PCs agree with it; It only determines what type of policies the country is likely to implement at any given point in time and the general trend of the population (the alignment of a country can change overtime). You can always play the opposite alignment of a country, but don't expect it too be easy. Specially not when playing in a campaign that actively assumes you are playing good or evil characters.


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."
This is less a problem with the AP than with your expectations of patriots, Chelish or otherwise. Brutal civil wars do tend to bring out the murderhobos, especially (though by no means exclusively) in the "party of order."

I think it’s alright to say an AP about being state agents not working for a lot of Lawful characters is valid criticism. I’m very glad Blood Lords is so much more amenable to this.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
keftiu wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."
This is less a problem with the AP than with your expectations of patriots, Chelish or otherwise. Brutal civil wars do tend to bring out the murderhobos, especially (though by no means exclusively) in the "party of order."
I think it’s alright to say an AP about being state agents not working for a lot of Lawful characters is valid criticism.

Of the alignment system, maybe. But not being able to begin as and remain a wholesome LN nationalist in the context of a civil war on the side of the repressive regime is a fairly good representation of the relevant dynamics, I think.


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."
This is less a problem with the AP than with your expectations of patriots, Chelish or otherwise. Brutal civil wars do tend to bring out the murderhobos, especially (though by no means exclusively) in the "party of order."
I think it’s alright to say an AP about being state agents not working for a lot of Lawful characters is valid criticism.
Of the alignment system, maybe. But not being able to begin as and remain a wholesome LN nationalist in the context of a civil war on the side of the repressive regime is a fairly good representation of the relevant dynamics, I think.

It would certainly be difficult to maintain neutral status while siding with a regime (good or evil). It's also hard to imagine a good character that would support an evil government and vice versa.


You can play a Lawful Good character in Blood Lords though, and it works. Not any Lawful Good character, but some of them. Your perspective is someone who has lived in Geb their whole live, understands that the whole thing is utterly horrific, but also understands that there's a lot of decent people who would be hurt if we just blew the whole thing up. So you have to work within the system, which you are not able to just replace with a better system, to make improvements where and when you are able to do so. You're not going to save the world or fix everything, but you can make a real difference that's going to matter to a lot of people.

It's just odd that you can make a Good character work in a "support the system" AP when it's the literal people-eating monsters in Geb where monsters have been eating people for thousands of years, but not in formerly-Arodenite Cheliax after four generations of Thrunes.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

You can play a Lawful Good character in Blood Lords though, and it works. Not any Lawful Good character, but some of them. Your perspective is someone who has lived in Geb their whole live, understands that the whole thing is utterly horrific, but also understands that there's a lot of decent people who would be hurt if we just blew the whole thing up. So you have to work within the system, which you are not able to just replace with a better system, to make improvements where and when you are able to do so. You're not going to save the world or fix everything, but you can make a real difference that's going to matter to a lot of people.

It's just odd that you can make a Good character work in a "support the system" AP when it's the literal people-eating monsters in Geb where monsters have been eating people for thousands of years, but not in formerly-Arodenite Cheliax after four generations of Thrunes.

Well...:
Hell's Vengeance also has the PCs create a dirty bomb out of a Gold Dragon's head that requires, what, the innocent blood of 200 people?

Nah, you don't get to keep you G or N after that kind of nonsense, patriot or not.

I'd wait for the whole AP before saying that you can get by with a Good character in Blood Lords. The higher level you go, the easier it is to commit atrocities.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Part of why it's harder to be a noble agent of the Chelaxian government is because Cheliax's main goals are imperialist expansionism and generally forcing the population to behave in a certain way.

Meanwhile Geb... Well, it does suck, but the government hasn't got much expansion in it and they do at least exuberantly enforce the protective laws they have, and Geb's well being has a bigger impact on most people than Cheliax.

Radiant Oath

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That's something that I honestly like about Geb as an evil character: yes, he's capable of truly horrific atrocities and like many a classic villain doesn't really see other people as fully-formed beings with lives and feelings of their own but tools for him to use and discard, but THAT SAID, the only times he's really dangerous is when he's provoked, whether that's by Nex or by the Knights of Ozem. That's why Geb (the nation) has lasted as long as it has: it doesn't seek glory or want to take and hold dirt the way other nations do. Cheliax, by contrast, desperately wants to do these things to recover the glory they think they've lost, and the general vibe of the Inner Sea region is "that's not how we do things anymore." The borders of nations, despite the massive shifts with things like the Gravelands creation, new nations like Oprak, Ravounel and Vidrian forming and stuff, have stabilized and no one WANTS to go to war with anyone else. Even Taldor, similar to Cheliax in many ways, is trying to cultivate a new kind of greatness, one that comes from within, rather than seeking to push around other nations to demand respect from them.


Why does anyone think that Cheliax would ever do anything but try to destroy TB. TB is CE and Asmodeus is LE and the dead don't have souls to try to corrupt or for mortals to try to sell theirs to hell for more power on the prime material plane. Why would Asmodeus want to chance that TB might achieve godhood and go after His [Asmodeus's Portfolio Magic]

The Lord of Hell would never chance that happening. He would use everything in his considerable power to prevent TB from achieving godhood. As far as Cheliax they do what Asmodeus tells them to do through his minions the House of Thrune. The Queen has a Pit Fiend
as an advisor after all and a fallen angel as a tutor so she does what Asmodeus wants almost all the time.

As for the Nation of Cheliax allying with TB what does he have to offer them that they want. He [TB] wants to kill all mortals and make them undead. Andoran's a nuisance as far as Cheliax is concerned compared to TB.

Radiant Oath

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm not sure anyone suggested that. What we're trying to say is Cheliax is treating Tar-Baphon's rampaging as an opportunity to continue getting away with the repression of their own people and launder their reputation at the same time, because they ARE fighting against Tar-Baphon. House Thrune actually one of the biggest advocates for "let's put aside our differences for now and focus on the bigger threat" because they know it'll force their citizens and their neighbors to tolerate them despite seeing how tenuous their position really is thanks to the successful rebellions of Ravounel and Vidrian and how even in failure the Glorious Reclamation came pretty close to winning. They need time to recover, and since they're part of a coalition they don't have to devote ALL their remaining forces to the fight against the Whispering Tyrant, so they're in the process of rebuilding. But just because they're being tolerated due to the current crisis doesn't mean anyone's fooled into thinking Cheliax will be content to let the new status quo stand after Tar-Baphon's been beaten. Their ego has been wounded, and that's when evil characters are at their most dangerous.

151 to 185 of 185 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.