What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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About that hint...:
If it's in the Inner Sea, it's either Andoran/Cheliax or Geb/Nex, and the hint talks about neighbors having to choose sides. Geb and Nex don't have a lot of those.


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If we do get an Andoran/Cheliax war, even though that would be fantastically ill-advised given the current situation, I hope that the Paizo writers would not expect us to want to fight on the side of the literal fascistic devil-worshippers.


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After all, there is another realistic option in the issue of this war. Osirion vs Quadira.


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I really don't see Osirion or Qadira going to war so suddenly. Both sides have gone to considerable lengths to prevent that happening again - Qadira's foreign policy has been held by an Imperial vizier appointed outside of the Satrap's authority specifically because the Empire was furious about its wayward Satrapy invading the first time, and Osirion has nothing it really wants. On the other side, Osirion has been building up its military since the Ruby Prince took the throne but still has no realistic chance of fighting the vast resources of the larger and more wealthy Qadira, who likewise has nothing worth picking a fight over. The island of Okeno lies between the two, but is technically the property of Katapesh and more realistically a pirate sanctuary neither has much interest in.

There may still be descendants of the last Sultan who want their throne back, and lingering ethnic tensions in northern Osirion, but that's hardly enough for the paranoid Xerbystes II to take his eye off the Taldan border with such a distraction, and the last time it invaded Osirion it ended up as a millennia-long backfire that painted them as conquerors, and which the larger empire had to spend a lot of time and money trying to reverse as damage control. Likewise, the Ruby Prince has pursued a foreign policy of subtle influence to improve Osirion's international standing, especially in Absalom, and a war would not further that.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
If we do get an Andoran/Cheliax war, even though that would be fantastically ill-advised given the current situation, I hope that the Paizo writers would not expect us to want to fight on the side of the literal fascistic devil-worshippers.

I guess after such a statement, there is nothing left for me but to urgently get rid of my posters with the inscriptions "All Hail Trune" and "Cheliax Forever". )))

Silver Crusade

We already had a Pro-Cheliax AP with Hell's Vengeance, it wasn't well received from what I remember.

I don't foresee them trying to make us like them again.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Hell's Vengenace was not trying to make folks like Cheliax. That would have been a disservice to them as villians. It was more of an experiment into doing an evil Adventure Path, and while it wasn't the most successful Adventure Path we've done and it certainly had those who hated it... I'm still glad we did it. Variety is what's helped us keep this thing going for so many volumes!


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Osirion vs Qadira is a possibility, but the groundwork hasn't been laid. The other two contenders are well established. Apart from the neighbors bit, I lean Geb/Nex. We had an AP about stopping the war from going hot (Agents of Alkenstar), and another where the PCs preserved the status quo, wherein many nations are somewhat reliant on Geb (Blood Lords). We even have a comic series set in that brewing conflict (Wake the Dead).

In retrospect, I think it will be Geb/Nex. Cheliax appearing to drop slavery removes Andoran's big casus bello, and Asmodeus basically allowed Cheliax to lose an entire province as a wakeup call (even if it was the most troublesome province). Andoran/Cheliax is definitely coming, but it feels further out. We've had Geb/Nex teased for too long. And, upon reflection, the neighbors bit makes sense for that war. Both Geb and Nex have done horrible things over the years, and Geb has made itself far more useful to the Inner Sea while Nex has been far less horrible on the whole (the Arclords still committed genocide, though). With Tar-Baphon being free, there are reasons to ally with either nation in hopes of getting them to return the favour when the Tar-Baphon showdown happens, and both nations would have reasons to fight the Whispering Tyrant. I don't see the great powers of Garund sitting that fight out, because Garund would probably be next should Avistan fall, and Avistan will want all the help it can get.


Doesn't two APs about stopping the Impossible Lands from spinning into war argue against that war, though? OoA and Blood Lords parties might be miffed to see their efforts undone just a few years later.

Silver Crusade

keftiu wrote:
Doesn't two APs about stopping the Impossible Lands from spinning into war argue against that war, though? OoA and Blood Lords parties might be miffed to see their efforts undone just a few years later.

Yeah that was another issue with HV, it undid Council of Thieves.

(I don't like HV in case that wasn't obvious)


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I think Keftiu is right. If Paizo were going to do a story about a war between Nex and Geb, that would have been part of Bloodlords and it ends without one. Doing one so soon after averting it risks making that adventure feel like a bit of a waste.

I'm already on record as positing Taldor as the inevitable regional rival of Cheliax, but I doubt they'd object to seeing the two main thorns in its side - Cheliax and Andoran, both with powerful navies and trade ties to Arcadia, both former Taldan provinces, both with baggage when it comes to trade and diplomacy - hammer each other while it sits on the sidelines, building its own resources. If it was going to pick a side, I'd expect them to support Andoran - as disruptive as they are, they're at least more palatable than Cheliax as diplomatic and trade partners. But the more practical option would be to arm both sides, and strategically undermine both to keep their war going as long as it can and then sweep in to dominate southern Avistan. But if Cheliax wins, Taldor loses a pro-democracy neighbour with a history of agitating in ways that made it unpopular, and if Andoran wins Taldor loses a geopolitical imperial rival with a history of expeditionary colonialism that almost rivals its own. Either way, it wins.

As for timing, that relies on both governments recognising the real threat of Tar-Baphon. He's not exactly on the doorstep of either nation. Even Andoran, which is closer, still has Druma and the Five Kings Mountains between them and the Eye of Dread, while Cheliax has a bunch of client states plus Isger and Oprak as a buffer. The lich may be a concern, but not necessarily a pressing one for either of them. And as Mr. Jacobs points out, there's plenty of precedent of governments real and fictional being too short-sighted or invested to recognise their petty conflicts are leaving them vulnerable to a greater threat.


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Evan Tarlton wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

The question I would like to ask, by the way. Thing is, one of my favorite things about the AP for the first edition that I saw was the fact that it had large enough articles to continue the campaign with plot hooks for future adventures. I was rather disappointed that this is not the case in the second edition, and many APs don't have such sections. Is there a similar section here? It's just that I would be glad when I heard that there is a fairly large article in the Gatewalkers. Or just announcements for future campaigns?

Well, given that there is an official representative of Paizo... what are the plans for such content?


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Tropkagar wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

The question I would like to ask, by the way. Thing is, one of my favorite things about the AP for the first edition that I saw was the fact that it had large enough articles to continue the campaign with plot hooks for future adventures. I was rather disappointed that this is not the case in the second edition, and many APs don't have such sections. Is there a similar section here? It's just that I would be glad when I heard that there is a fairly large article in the Gatewalkers. Or just announcements for future campaigns?

Well, given that there is an official representative of Paizo... what are the plans for such content?

Not an official representative, but...

Spoiler:
the Continuing the Campaign article in Stolen Fate talks about the potential ways to hide individual cards to makw sure they don't get reunited, as well as how to do the readings if the PCs either choose to go through with it or destroy the Deck. The latter is when we get future AP hints.

And to get back on topic: we should keep watching the metaregion books. If we get a Shining Kingdoms or Old Cheliax book, then an Andoran/Cheliax war becomes all the more likely. If we get both, I think it's assured.


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Yes, if we really return to you discussions, then my opinion about the region.

Cheliax: I think many here have already decided that I am a fan of this state. Actually this is not true. It's just that I think that even the evil factions should be developed as much as possible so that the characters' motives are clear. So yes, I want to know more about Cheliax. After all, the state can provide many archetypes that may not be evil and still make sense as servants of the crown. For example, the classic archetype of a patriot who does not care about the person on the throne, but he will defend states until his death. And yes, I really think that half of the book about this region should be focused on this particular state, given how much it is larger than all its neighbors.

Isger: on the one hand, the state got its details... on the other hand, I'm still not sure what role they can play in the plot besides a bargaining chip between Andoran and Cheliax (if a war between factions occurs, then I would doubt that the end of the war will be the destruction of one of the states.Most likely, Isger will simply change the owner).

Nidal: Hmm... nation is interesting in my opinion, but it's hard for me to imagine a global history in their performance. They are too isolationist for any large-scale actions. And the overthrow of Zon-Kuthon's power will probably require too large-scale changes in the setting.

Ravounel: I like the state in its current state of legal nightmare where they should be trying to make reforms based on the Cheliax legislation.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
If we do get an Andoran/Cheliax war, even though that would be fantastically ill-advised given the current situation, I hope that the Paizo writers would not expect us to want to fight on the side of the literal fascistic devil-worshippers.

Honestly another set of parallel "Side A vs Side B" AP would be interesting.

The Hell's set was very internal to cheliax, but this set could easily be set as a Pro-Andoran vs Pro-Cheliax adventures. While still letting the players decide who they end up siding with by adding a third player in the mix.

* P.S. I don't agree that evil campaigns for evil characters should not be made. Not everyone wants to play the good people and its a diservice to not make a variety of stories. It does not speak about what paizo staff personally likes to offer variety.

Shadow Lodge

Evan Tarlton wrote:
Cheliax appearing to drop slavery removes Andoran's big casus bello, and Asmodeus basically allowed Cheliax to lose an entire province as a wakeup call (even if it was the most troublesome province).

Neither slavery nor any others of Cheliax's internal policies was ever a casus belli for Andoran, you can tell from the fact that they never went to war with Cheliax over the seventy-odd years since winning their independence. They also didn't go to war when they had an armed uprising on their border asking for their help and powerful politicians pushing for it, so that is off the table as well (content in Firebrands about a smaller, weaker, and less geographically extensive underground preparing an armed uprising in Ostenso, and counting on it totally getting Andoren help this time you guys, is almost certainly a red herring).


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I want Cheliax to go to war so we can have an Abrogail Thrune version of the "Downfall" Meme.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Tropkagar wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

The question I would like to ask, by the way. Thing is, one of my favorite things about the AP for the first edition that I saw was the fact that it had large enough articles to continue the campaign with plot hooks for future adventures. I was rather disappointed that this is not the case in the second edition, and many APs don't have such sections. Is there a similar section here? It's just that I would be glad when I heard that there is a fairly large article in the Gatewalkers. Or just announcements for future campaigns?

Well, given that there is an official representative of Paizo... what are the plans for such content?

We do try to include a "Continuing the Campaign" article for all of our Adventure Paths, but for those that end at 20th it's less of a need. In those cases, we'll do a "Beyond the Campaign" article though.

It's also the first article we tend to cut for space if the last adventure runs long or there's some great need for other articles in the back. Since these "Continuing the Campaign" articles are almost always written by the lead developer (since they have the single greatest insight into the Adventure Path and where it might go from there, and also have the advantage of being on staff so they know where and what can be teased or previewed or hinted at), there's rarely really a worry about wasting money or a freelancer's time if we do end up needing to cut the content, since it gets cut before it gets created.

But it's something we do try to do. When we don't it's because what you see printed in that volume took up all the room.


Perhaps head back to the lands of Legacy of Fire? Time to put those Masters into the trash since they are another group of slavers.


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One thing I really like about "dropping alignment" is that there will never again be a reason to push "the PCs are themselves villains" as nothing has stopped you from playing really bad people in a bunch of APs, it's just weird to insist that you *have* to be a terrible person.

We were seriously unhappy playing our characters in Hell's Vengeance until we realized that we could screw over Cheliax and worked to figure out a way to get away with it.

We were probably worse people in Strange Aeons, but there was the whole "we're trying to be better" and "we're literally saving the world" thing going on too.


In Lost Omens legends Aborgail uses a legal technicality to kill a whole bunch of members of the church of Iomedae does the church's response ever get mentioned cause as I understand it the church of Iomedae is one of the biggest churches in Cheliax and I don't remember it ever coming up again.


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Beckett99 wrote:
In Lost Omens legends Aborgail uses a legal technicality to kill a whole bunch of members of the church of Iomedae does the church's response ever get mentioned cause as I understand it the church of Iomedae is one of the biggest churches in Cheliax and I don't remember it ever coming up again.

The Chelish Church of Iomedae isn't looking so hot after losing Hell's Vengeance.


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keftiu wrote:
Beckett99 wrote:
In Lost Omens legends Aborgail uses a legal technicality to kill a whole bunch of members of the church of Iomedae does the church's response ever get mentioned cause as I understand it the church of Iomedae is one of the biggest churches in Cheliax and I don't remember it ever coming up again.
The Chelish Church of Iomedae isn't looking so hot after losing Hell's Vengeance.

For most of Thrunish Cheliax, that church was strong enough that the Asmodeans had to tolerate it. Not anymore. The Glorious Reclamation turned out to be a net win for the regime: the Thrunes and the Church of Asmodeus were forced into a united front; many or most sources of internal dissent were killed, driven into exile, or broken; and the most troublesome province was turned into a neighbor that has to play nice.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
If we do get an Andoran/Cheliax war, even though that would be fantastically ill-advised given the current situation, I hope that the Paizo writers would not expect us to want to fight on the side of the literal fascistic devil-worshippers.

This is EXACTLY what my players would want to do! The destruction of Andoran is nigh!!! Praise Asmodeus!

I'm dying to run a campaign that earns Cheliax or Geb some military conquests and changes the map.


CastleDour wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
If we do get an Andoran/Cheliax war, even though that would be fantastically ill-advised given the current situation, I hope that the Paizo writers would not expect us to want to fight on the side of the literal fascistic devil-worshippers.

This is EXACTLY what my players would want to do! The destruction of Andoran is nigh!!! Praise Asmodeus!

I'm dying to run a campaign that earns Cheliax or Geb some military conquests and changes the map.

Seeing Nex and Geb do another round of I'm the better wizard king would be nice hopefully one would win for real this time.


Land of the Linnorm Kings and New Thassilon ?

New Thassilon vs. New Thassilon?

Razmiran and Kyonin?


Assuming it's the potential war you're referring to, not sure I'd call the Lands of the Linnorm Kings a "great nation" when they aren't unified, ditto for New Thassilon.


I think a story about uniting the Lands of the Linnorm Kings to resist the imperial ambitions of Belimarius's half of New Thassilon would be an interesting story, but it's a bit outside the scope of the thread.


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Great nations probably means powerful ones. Neither New Thassilonian faction counts yet, though that can certainly change with time.

Shadow Lodge

Evan Tarlton wrote:
Great nations probably means powerful ones. Neither New Thassilonian faction counts yet, though that can certainly change with time.

Come again? If ol' Baphy's domain counts as a great power (and it must, if it takes the established great powers uniting against it to contain it), then so does New Eurythnia.

Silver Crusade

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Great nations probably means powerful ones. Neither New Thassilonian faction counts yet, though that can certainly change with time.
Come again? If ol' Baphy's domain counts as a great power (and it must, if it takes the established great powers uniting against it to contain it), then so does New Eurythnia.

Think about what you just said.

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Great nations probably means powerful ones. Neither New Thassilonian faction counts yet, though that can certainly change with time.
Come again? If ol' Baphy's domain counts as a great power (and it must, if it takes the established great powers uniting against it to contain it), then so does New Eurythnia.
Think about what you just said.

Aggression does not make a great power. Aggression is a policy that can be pursued or foresworn by great or small powers. Power makes power.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Great nations probably means powerful ones. Neither New Thassilonian faction counts yet, though that can certainly change with time.
Come again? If ol' Baphy's domain counts as a great power (and it must, if it takes the established great powers uniting against it to contain it), then so does New Eurythnia.

New Eurythnia isn't a great power. Sorshen released most of her really powerful servants, and she's extending a hand to outcasts and artists. That doesn't lend itself to gaining power quickly. Compare them to Edasseril. Edasseril can't even properly deal with Celwynvian or snip off part of the LotLK. Edasseril could take New Eurythnia, and the only reason they haven't is because Sorshen would annihilate Belimarius.


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I wouldn't call Tar-Baphon a Great Power any more than I would call a hurricane a Great Power, regardless of how powerful his forces are, because you need to be a nation to be one and as I understand that just isn't what the Isle of Terror is. It's more akin to the Worldwould in severity, a breach of the natural order. The Eye of Dread isn't really a nation, more of a roaming horde.

Edited for accuracy.


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Morhek wrote:
I wouldn't call Tar-Baphon a Great Power any more than I would call a hurricane a Great Power, regardless of how powerful his forces are, because you need to be a nation to be one and as I understand that just isn't what the Eye of Dread is. It's more akin to the Worldwould in severity, a breach of the natural order. The Eye of Dread isn't really a nation, more of a roaming horde.

Of course it's not a nation, it's a meta-region that contains nations such as Ustalav, Molthune, Nirmathas, and Oprak.


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Sorry, I meant Isle of Terror, not Eye of Dread.

Silver Crusade

Morhek wrote:

I wouldn't call Tar-Baphon a Great Power any more than I would call a hurricane a Great Power, regardless of how powerful his forces are, because you need to be a nation to be one and as I understand that just isn't what the Isle of Terror is. It's more akin to the Worldwould in severity, a breach of the natural order. The Eye of Dread isn't really a nation, more of a roaming horde.

Edited for accuracy.

*Eye of Abendego has entered the chat*


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Gah, I still left a reference to Eye of Dread rather than Isle of Terror. So much for accuracy. :/


The Whispering Tyrant is barely stronger than Araznis before she ascended. Definetly weaker than Baba Yaga, but stronger than Treerazor.

Also, do remember that there are far more powerful and capable players than Tar-Baphon. Take for example Sorshen, which is as strong as Baba Yaga, more experienced as a ruler, focused on enchantments and manipulation (aka people acting willingly), and is actually willing to go through with her word (even to a fiend).

Is he an issue? Yeah, its a horde of undead and their sleeper agents. Are they the primary concern? Probably not.

* P.S. If the threat is really worldwound level, it is going to be about 100 years and multiple crusades before it can be beaten. Hope he doesn't become a full god if he is really that much a treat.

Shadow Lodge

Morhek wrote:
Gah, I still left a reference to Eye of Dread rather than Isle of Terror. So much for accuracy. :/

I have never understood why this forum imposes a one-hour limit on the ability to edit posts. That said, the Worldwound was a nation with institutions (albeit weak and personalist ones) and so is Grafar (extrapolating the name of the realm from the name of its capital).

Temperans wrote:
Also, do remember that there are far more powerful and capable players than Tar-Baphon. Take for example Sorshen, which is as strong as Baba Yaga, more experienced as a ruler, focused on enchantments and manipulation (aka people acting willingly), and is actually willing to go through with her word (even to a fiend).

"Sorshen is more powerful and capable than Tar-Baphon" isn't the argument against New Eurythnia being a great power that you imagine it to be. "Sorshen releas[ing] most of her really powerful servants" a la Evan Tarlton is, but New Eurythnia's educational and administrative institutions are fairly robust for all that. They could probably be mobilized to support a war in short order even if Sorshen's policy does not seek war at the moment.

Liberty's Edge

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The two great nations are Sandpoint and Otari.

These are the two places with the greatest number of 3.5/PF1/PF2 PC alumni in the whole multiverse !!!

Marvel and DC combined have nothing of this scale.

Prepare for Ultimate Crisis and Apokoliptic Annihilation (aka PCs did this).

Shadow Lodge

The Raven Black wrote:

The two great nations are Sandpoint and Otari.

These are the two places with the greatest number of 3.5/PF1/PF2 PC alumni in the whole multiverse !!!

True. But also consider the Starfinder equivalent (I have not paid attention to Starfinder and do not have any inkling of what this might be).

Liberty's Edge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

The two great nations are Sandpoint and Otari.

These are the two places with the greatest number of 3.5/PF1/PF2 PC alumni in the whole multiverse !!!

True. But also consider the Starfinder equivalent (I have not paid attention to Starfinder and do not have any inkling of what this might be).

Starfinder is another setting though.

I do not know much about it, but I guess Absalom Station should be the place.


Morhek wrote:
Gah, I still left a reference to Eye of Dread rather than Isle of Terror. So much for accuracy. :/

What about the Isle of Dread?


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I think one take to do if you want a Andoran-Cheliax war is to have the war started through false flag operations by the Whispering Way or some other greater threat, to weaken the nations against Tar-Baphon. You still get the war background, but it's up to you to stop the war and bring to justice the actual perpetrators.


If we are talking about Great Power then this is a reference to International Relations theory and lingo- meaning we are looking at regional hegemons at the very least and Empires at most within what is clearly a multipolar state system.

Chelliax could definitely be one of them. Absolom arguably another. Vudra and the Kelesh could qualify.

Paizo’s relatively better understanding of IR is actually one of the reasons I prefer it to D&D. The latter remains too much inspired by Tolkien and Tolkien did not have a very developed understanding of international relations nor politics.

Etymology, western mythology, & classical literature on the other hand…

Liberty's Edge

Great powers could be on other planes though. The two new planes might start a war. That would explain the Rage in Rage of the elements, a wording I never found justified previously.

We also suppose that the war will be between the two Great powers. But they might be striking together against a third party.


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MMCJawa wrote:
I think one take to do if you want a Andoran-Cheliax war is to have the war started through false flag operations by the Whispering Way or some other greater threat, to weaken the nations against Tar-Baphon. You still get the war background, but it's up to you to stop the war and bring to justice the actual perpetrators.

If it is Andoran/Cheliax, I fully believe that this is how it will go down. We probably will get a full war between them at some point, but not now.

Mammoth Daddy wrote:
If we are talking about Great Power then this is a reference to International Relations theory and lingo- meaning we are looking at regional hegemons at the very least and Empires at most within what is clearly a multipolar state system.

Exactly. In the Inner Sea, I would say that the great powers are Absalom, Andoran, Cheliax, Geb, Nex, Qadira, and Taldor. Druma (military too small, though it punches above its weight in that arena), Katapesh (doesn't seem to want the hassle) and Osirion (can change if it takes a more aggressive foreign policy) are nearly there. Molthune desperately wants to join the club, but... no. Just... no. Even without Tar-Baphon. They would have to pacify Nirmathas enough to expand into Varisia, but now there's Oprak and New Thassilon to consider. Azaersi would be very tempted to strike while most of the army was far away, and Sorshen and Belimarius would form a coalition with the city-states (or more accurately: Belimarius would try to push them around, but Sorshen would actually pull it off via diplomacy).


I think Nidal could probably be considered a great power. They may not have the imperial ambitions of some of those nations, but at the same time I think any nation would have to be insane to try to mess with them. And they seem to be involved politically with there neighbors, or at least Cheliax.

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