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But you'd have it at the start of the next level 2 scenario because you got it at the end of the previous level 2 scenario. Or does that level 2 item allowable purchase for a level 2 character not count for the legal level 2 character? You use the +1 rune at level 2 if purchased during the 3 scenarios that comprise level 2.
Also from the Organized Play Guide:
You can always purchase the following items so long as you’re in a settlement of at least 5,000 residents (and scenarios might sometimes provide additional allowances or limitations): ...
I chose a scenario with fewer numbers that matched the experience in my PF2 campaign. I have no experience with Organized Play.
As I explained in comment #384, the largest town near the campaign at 2nd level has Phaendar, population 400 and in hostile hands. The nearest city was Longshadow, population 4,000, fifty miles away across an enemy blockade. The nearest city with at least 5,000 residents was Tamran, population 9,730, 150 miles away across another enemy blockade--though my players did destroy that blockage at 4th level.
Sigh, currently the party is 14th-level and in the Dwarven Sky Citadel Kraggodan, population 24,000. The dwarven merchants talked them into purchasing a Horn of Blasting item 9, Ring of Lies item 10, Cloak of the Bat item 10. and Potion of Flying item 8. They are not interested in optimizing through items, but like to prepare for difficult cases such as flying enemies.
But enough of my excuses. I gave the mathematics by which I reached my conclusions. Tristan d'Ambrosius is totally free to plug his own choice of gear into the math and find his own numbers. No matter the gear, those results for overall combat power won't be linear by level.
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the numbers are pretty close to linear by level unless the dm chooses it not to be
No... if they were linear, then if a level 1 Fighter can take on a single orc warrior, a level 10 Fighter can take on 10 orc warriors with the same risk. We know it's not true, as the level 10 Fighter will mow down twice that number of orcs while getting no more than a couple scratches. The power increase is not linear.
the numbers are pretty close to linear by level unless the dm chooses it not to beNo... if they were linear, then if a level 1 Fighter can take on a single orc warrior, a level 10 Fighter can take on 10 orc warriors with the same risk. We know it's not true, as the level 10 Fighter will mow down twice that number of orcs while getting no more than a couple scratches. The power increase is not linear.
Absolutely agree with you Megistone.
Even if the characters didn't gain a single feat that would be the case. But when you factor in the huge amount of feats and choices a high level character has, then they're exponentially stronger.
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the numbers are pretty close to linear by level unless the dm chooses it not to be
Is this Mathmuse bait?
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the numbers are pretty close to linear by level unless the dm chooses it not to beNo... if they were linear, then if a level 1 Fighter can take on a single orc warrior, a level 10 Fighter can take on 10 orc warriors with the same risk. We know it's not true, as the level 10 Fighter will mow down twice that number of orcs while getting no more than a couple scratches. The power increase is not linear.Absolutely agree with you Megistone.
Even if the characters didn't gain a single feat that would be the case. But when you factor in the huge amount of feats and choices a high level character has, then they're exponentially stronger.
hmm maybe i am misunderstanding the usage of linear here , i was meaning that the math of the characters progresses at a set level and the game assumes certain numbers at each level , this includes things like the characters having access to certain gear at certain levels
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Numbers advance in a linear fashion, but the result of the interacions is quadratic. A character with X attack bonus and Y damage has offense closer to "X*Y" than to "X+Y".
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It's impossible to define "linear" in such a complex system. For martials, the computation would be something like:
Efficiency = (attack bonus * (weapon runes + elemental runes + other damage bonuses)) * (1 + action economy enhancers + reaction enhancers)) * (hp * (AC + Saves))
Because you also have to consider action economy and reactions in your damage output. And your survivability also has an impact as the longer and the easier you survive the more damage you dish out.
And on top of that, it's highly dependent on circumstances, as damage like Sneak Attack, Finisher, etc... are circumstantial and damage like Bleeding have very different results depending on the combat and the enemy.
I think the "linear fighter quadratic wizard" was just a metaphor to say that the wizard progression was vastly higher than the fighter one. I don't think anyone proved that it was actually quadratic.
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Well, originally fighters simply went up in power, and wizards went up in both power and versatility, which is where the phrase came from. Fighters kept hitting people harder, and wizards just kept getting new dimensions to play with. In some way, it's still true, but usually PF2 feats open up more things that a fighter can pick from (instead of just hitting things harder) in order to match the wizard's increasing number of spell slots.
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I've not read thru this whole thread yet but so far my groups has played Age of ashes, Extinction Curse, Agents of EdgeWatch, Abomination Vaults, & Strength of Thousands, and so far have not been able to complete a single one ether we get to so many TPK's the adventure stops being fun or we make it right up to the final battle and cant touch the end boss and it blows thru us in a handful of rounds. I'm starting to think it might be on are end because one would think if anyone else had troubles with certain aspects of the adventures that even a cursory google search would turn something up but each time my group has come to one of these road blocks we spend several days of searching to see if others have had the same problems. For example we just failed the final battle of Strength of Thousands because no one could touch the reaper dude with his roll twice take the lowest aura and what ever damage he would take was healed up right away because of his insane attack bonus, so with said attack bonus he CRIT'd one character almost right of the start line and they failed there FRT save so they were dead from one hit then the 2nd round did the same to a second character then a few more rounds later finished the last 2 off, a plus to that fight we made it so we only had to fight the reaper by keeping the 2 big worm things gone with the MAZE spell, but that still left 4 to 1 and we barely scratched it. Yes are group didn't have max in the weapon and armor department(I.E. +3 major stuffs) but looking at the stats of the monster after the fact that wouldn't have helped anyways, and we found out the key weakness to all 3 as well which didnt help? So how was that fight anyway winable? We had a Bard healer debuffer, a wizard blaster debuffer/buffer, a Magus dps, and a Summoner that made it so his Eidolon turned out to be a damn good tank/dps, with a whole bunch of homebrewed extras that gave a bunch of stuff from magic items to free feats. Thats why if anyone has seen other post I did earlier about doing Dual class and free archetype for Quest for the Frozen Flame.
We had a Bard healer debuffer, a wizard blaster debuffer/buffer, a Magus dps, and a Summoner that made it so his Eidolon turned out to be a damn good tank/dps, with a whole bunch of homebrewed extras that gave a bunch of stuff from magic items to free feats.
I can't speak to that specific encounter, but perhaps I can help you with general tactical advice. But first, we need to identify the problem. Can you please elaborate more specifically on the party's common tactics? Were there a lot of rounds in which characters stood around making three attacks for example? Or not moving around and not utilizing action denial, thus allowing the boss monsters to use their powerful three-action abilities?
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Pretty basic severe setup for a level 20 party.
1x level-1 variant crimson worm
1x level+0 variant mukradi
1x level+1 variant grim reaper
The reaper is a truly brutal enemy. Before buffs/debuffs casters will be crit on a 12 and need to roll a 13 to avoid instant death that also prevents resurrection. The reaper can also teleport and AoO a caster as a reaction that will also disrupt the cast.
The provided tactics for the monsters are pretty bad. They'll friendly fire each other, don't count each other for flanking, and the reaper is supposed to sit at ranged for 4 rounds throwing fingers of death before bothering with melee. Plenty of time to set buffs and debuffs.
Considering you are full-healed and have everything restored before this fight, a strong party shouldn't have much trouble. Pre-buff with 10 minute or longer spells, bait the reaction and pray the bard or wizard lands a hideous laughter to turn off future reactions. The reaper's AC is very average. Baseline, you should be hitting on an 11. With your prebuff heroism +3, and flank you hit on a 6. It's aura of disadvantage leaves you with a ~65% hit rate on the first attack if my late night brain is working right. The real issues there are resist all 15 and heal 20 on hit with the instant death rider on a crit. You basically only have a few rounds to kill it before it wipes the party and you need to be very efficient about it.
The issues then with your party might simply be tactical. Blasting is useless here since enemies heal if any of the other enemies dies, dunno about your buff/debuff situation. Could be a matchup issue as your whole party gets ruined by that reaction, especially magus. Could be your gm played the enemies too competently. Most likely it's a combination of all three.
Easiest way to kill it is probably to pre/buff the party with Disappearance. It doesn't have permanent 10th level true seeing and dissappearance beats status sight and see invis. Even on a successful counteract (but not crit success), 6th level true seeing can't pierce 8th level disappearance making it a staple for cheesing many creatures in the low 20s.
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Yes are group didn't have max in the weapon and armor department(I.E. +3 major stuffs)
Here's your problem (apart from writing walls of text): the game expects you to have +3 greater striking weapons and +3 greater resilient armor at that point. If you skip that, you're behind the curve big time.
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Yes are group didn't have max in the weapon and armor department(I.E. +3 major stuffs)Here's your problem (apart from writing walls of text): the game expects you to have +3 greater striking weapons and +3 greater resilient armor at that point. If you skip that, you're behind the curve big time.
For all that PF2 is much more balanced mechanically and tried very hard to do away with the Big 6, they actually made certain items (the runes) absolutely compulsory just to keep the maths on track.
Kinda ironic.
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Yes are group didn't have max in the weapon and armor department(I.E. +3 major stuffs)Here's your problem (apart from writing walls of text): the game expects you to have +3 greater striking weapons and +3 greater resilient armor at that point. If you skip that, you're behind the curve big time.For all that PF2 is much more balanced mechanically and tried very hard to do away with the Big 6, they actually made certain items (the runes) absolutely compulsory just to keep the maths on track.
Kinda ironic.
What's really ironic was that moving the game to ABP was discussed during the playtest and asked about in one survey, but a large majority of playerbase wanted to retain the "you must upgrade your sword or fall behind the game math" thing as integral to their D&D/Pathfinder experience. What people want and what people ask for are seldom the same.
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Yes are group didn't have max in the weapon and armor department(I.E. +3 major stuffs)Here's your problem (apart from writing walls of text): the game expects you to have +3 greater striking weapons and +3 greater resilient armor at that point. If you skip that, you're behind the curve big time.For all that PF2 is much more balanced mechanically and tried very hard to do away with the Big 6, they actually made certain items (the runes) absolutely compulsory just to keep the maths on track.
Kinda ironic.
Not ironic. That's what the people playtesting the game wanted.
Lots of other people, including me, advocated for implementing Automatic Bonus Progression from the get go, however, the survey results showed that a lot of the testers wanted magic weapons that gave straight power. Whether the ever realized what that meant, or if they ever thought deeper about the issue or the only way to implement this in the game, I don't know. But here we are.
Ironic, to me, is that one of the main designers wanted Automatic Bonus Progression as well (Mark Seifter). This, at least, meant we got it really fast in the GMG.
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@adam morin: PF2 is definitely tougher than prior editions. When the game says severe, it's severe. So, during a campaign, you have to expect deaths and TPKs, it definitely happens.
Now, if you prefer an easier experience, instead of going Dual Class + Free Archetype (which is mostly overcomplicating the game) I'd personally just give an extra level to the PCs. It would compensate your lack of runes if it ever happens, and otherwise it makes the game slightly easier without making it trivial. Normally, with an extra level, you should avoid most deaths and TPKs but you will still experience some tough fights (especially if your party is not much into optimization).
Also, an extra level is fun (you get the fun stuff earlier).
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+1 more in attack and ac wouldnt have mattered when the reaper dude only needed to hit my bard with 2 so being hit with a 3 isn't much more better so you cant tell me +3 stuff would have flipped the scales and I don't think there is such a thing as level 21 in this game. the problem is that there is a huge gap between the power rating of monster the same level like my group found it difficult to fight Unlce cinder Archive of Nethys has it's creature the Lerritan at 21 but we did manage it defeat it were as the almost all the same ger except for a few items here and there we go up against the Aspect at the last fight and the Aspect of Immortality a Variant Reaper again according to Nethys is creature 21? but they were vastly different in power I'd say the reaper should have been more like 23-24 in there rating and the adventure path shouldnt have thrown it at no more the maybe a party of 6? not 4. And yes we know not to go toe to toe with stuff but didnt matter when boss guys thru most of the adventure paths can like 70% of the time one shot you.
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The +1 makes a huge difference. Sure, it will hit you almost certainly with the first attack, but every point you're ahead a) reduces the chance of getting hit with 2nd/3rd Strike b) reduce the chance of getting a crit, and that's what makes monsters above your level so dangerous - they'll crit you more often, so you want to reduce that as much as you can.
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You are right Adam Morin, PF2 has some very challenging encounters and most parties will eventually hit upon some creatures that almost feel built to beat them specifically. With such a caster heavy party, a higher creature with AoO is going to be a very difficult enemy. It sounds like the tactics in the book were suggested to keep that enemy from getting in your faces right away, but that your party experienced a different set of tactics.
As a GM, even in my homebrew, I too will occasionally throw a very fdifficult enemy at my party, but give it an objective other than completely TPK murder unless the players push the encounter into it. I like a game that doesn’t just encourage players to assume their characters are capable of fighting their way through any encounter they can get themselves in. I think it encourages them to try to learn what they can about an approaching situation and I usually give my party a way out early if they need it, but if they don’t take it, I am not afraid to let the enemy win a fight.
It sounds like the writer of this encounter built it similarly, but it didn’t work out that way in practice. For your group. If the whole party is feeling like the encounters are too lethal, my suggestion is to ask for a new “Session 0” to let everyone have time to step back for a mement and talk about what is fun and what is not, and see if there is a consensus at your table about any options that will make things more fun for every one. It could even just be the party deciding “pre written severe encounters aren’t fun for us. Please dial those encounters back or change the creatures involved in them.” And then the GM giving weak templates to creatures in those encounters or thinking more about how to run them
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I will say this... Reapers do feel kind of busted. All their bonuses are between high and extreme, and they have a death effect on their crits. Their aura of misfortune makes fighting them in melee seem like suicide but they also punish range attacks and spells with the reaction, as well as movement, within 100 feet. Feels like the only safe way to them on is with super long range spells, but the thing has a 75 foot flight speed so that advantage won't last long.
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Reapers and their lesser version (Lesser Death) are completely overpowered.
I haven't met the Reaper yet but I met a few Lesser Deaths and they clearly deserve a +2 to their level: They are properly unkillable. Between the aura of misfortune that severely hampers martials, their range AoO that disrupts on a hit (not even a critical hit) making casters' life a hell, their ability to ignore spells that target Undead, their resistance to positive, their saves that are all at least high... I just don't see how you can affect them. Sure, they don't do massive damage (unlike the Reaper) but it took us 10 rounds to kill them and it was mostly because the GM has been a bit nice and my Sorcerer was able to cast without triggering (Blood Component Substitution saved our souls).
There are a few monsters in the bestiary who need to be tweaked down. A lot of monsters should also be tweaked up, but noone speaks about these ones!
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Reapers and their lesser version (Lesser Death) are completely overpowered.
I haven't met the Reaper yet but I met a few Lesser Deaths and they clearly deserve a +2 to their level: They are properly unkillable. Between the aura of misfortune that severely hampers martials, their range AoO that disrupts on a hit (not even a critical hit) making casters' life a hell, their ability to ignore spells that target Undead, their resistance to positive, their saves that are all at least high... I just don't see how you can affect them. Sure, they don't do massive damage (unlike the Reaper) but it took us 10 rounds to kill them and it was mostly because the GM has been a bit nice and my Sorcerer was able to cast without triggering (Blood Component Substitution saved our souls).There are a few monsters in the bestiary who need to be tweaked down. A lot of monsters should also be tweaked up, but noone speaks about these ones!
For the record blood component substitution does nothing against lesser death, as it just changes manipulate to concentrate and lesser death reaction triggers on concentrate.
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For the record blood component substitution does nothing against lesser death, as it just changes manipulate to concentrate and lesser death reaction triggers on concentrate.
It looks like we missed that. Well, it would have been a TPK, then.
Honestly, the Lesser Deaths are just invincible as is. They really deserve a +2 in level.
I've listened to enough combats/read enough complaints online to realize that at high levels, some monsters with reactions just poopoo all over casters. It's why on my sorcerer I took roaring applause, and because of that our party managed to eek out a victory over two lesser deaths at level 16. But I really do think there should be more counterplay options to reactions that stop you from being able to play the game
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I've listened to enough combats/read enough complaints online to realize that at high levels, some monsters with reactions just poopoo all over casters. It's why on my sorcerer I took roaring applause, and because of that our party managed to eek out a victory over two lesser deaths at level 16. But I really do think there should be more counterplay options to reactions that stop you from being able to play the game
The issue is that we met 3 of them and the GM played intelligently: At all times at least one of them was ready to jump on our casters. It's true that there's the 20 ft. range we could have tried to play with, but the room was not very big and the only exit was through a trap...
Anyway, a monster with so many defenses shouldn't exist. One of the basis of the monster building design is that if you put a strong defense on a monster you need an equivalent weakness to compensate. And in the Lesser Deaths case, there's just more defenses on more defenses. It's a flawed monster (there are a few others, but this one is just way beyond anything I've met in PF2, I don't even understand why no one realized it at Paizo's).
Well, I'm level 5, Redeemer Champion of Sarenrae, we play Agent of Edgewatch, I don't feel weak, I'm the group's Medic, and I find it super fun to lift my teammates, after all, that's my dedication, I would feel frustrated if the Archetype I chose in fact, did nothing. From the first level I feel the importance and relevance of my character. Super happy with everything in the game so far!
The issue is that we met 3 of them and the GM played intelligently
Man, your GM was being cruel. The description for Lesser Deaths state that they rarely hunt in packs... and given their reaction ability that bit of fluff should be considered a strong guideline bordering on a rule.
Been thinking of how I'd approach the Grim Reaper fight. Best I've come up with so far is to load up on Death Ward spells and Major Juggernaut Mutagens. As someone else mentioned, hope to get lucky with something like Hideous Laughter or Roaring Applause.
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The issue is that we met 3 of them and the GM played intelligentlyMan, your GM was being cruel. The description for Lesser Deaths state that they rarely hunt in packs... and given their reaction ability that bit of fluff should be considered a strong guideline bordering on a rule.
It was in an adventure, so he just followed what was written.
I don’t find it to be a systemic problem, but a consequence of AoO-like reactions being uncommon is definitely that parties don’t expect them, prepare for them, or strategize effective ways to counter them very often.
As a GM, I think this is a good thing to keep in mind as you prepare your campaign and when you see a tough monster with one coming up in an encounter, it is probably a good idea to think about whether your players are ready for it or not. A side mission, or two before they get there with some lower level monsters with similar abilities can help them realize that their characters have a weak spot and then they can either address it, or not, but at least when they hit the harder stuff with them, they will realize that their level of preparedness for that tactic was a choice that they made, or didn’t. I also try to do the same thing with paralyzing effects and death effects: try to have the party run into one lone scrub of a creature with similar powers or a narrative connection to the upcoming creatures so that the party has a chance to see it coming.
Often times, my players will ignore these honors and get themselves in trouble but after the challenging encounter, I can point back to the build up and remind them that PF2 rewards learning about your enemies and preparing to deny strengths and target weaknesses.
I've not read thru this whole thread yet but so far my groups has played Age of ashes, Extinction Curse, Agents of EdgeWatch, Abomination Vaults, & Strength of Thousands, and so far have not been able to complete a single one ether we get to so many TPK's the adventure stops being fun or we make it right up to the final battle and cant touch the end boss and it blows thru us in a handful of rounds. I'm starting to think it might be on are end because one would think if anyone else had troubles with certain aspects of the adventures that even a cursory google search would turn something up but each time my group has come to one of these road blocks we spend several days of searching to see if others have had the same problems. For example we just failed the final battle of Strength of Thousands because no one could touch the reaper dude with his roll twice take the lowest aura and what ever damage he would take was healed up right away because of his insane attack bonus, ...
I gave a few examples back in June 2022 of my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion compaign, the last of which is comment #401 at the top of this page. The seven party members are now 16th level and only 237 xp short of 17th level. I recall that Pathfinder 1st Edition and Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition battles were quite lengthy at this level, so I am curious about how difficult high-level combat is in PF2.
Especially because my players recently had their most punishing battle of the campaign, where two PCs were knocked out. I could use some advice.
After a battle with four blighted handmaidens, whom I had built as 16th-level Wild Order druids, I unleashed an advanced 18th-level wendigo on them before they could heal. The wendigo replaced a CR 16 creature that I had moved to an earlier encounter. A Veil spell disguised the party so that they could fool most of their opponents, and realizing that the wendigo hated everybody, they rushed ahead to the next encounter to fool them into helping battle the wendigo. The next encounter was some guards who sounded the alarm to release the bandersnatch. That was supposed to be a CR 15 lesser bandersnatch, but Archives of Nethys had the PF2 stats for a 19th-level Primal Bandersnatch, so I used that.
The party retreated to an empty side cave while battling the wendigo and gotten it down to half its hit points. Then the bandersnatch showed up and ripped it to shreds in one turn. It was surprised that the wendigo was already heavily injured.
Unfortunately for the party, the bandersnatch decided that they were enemies and wiggled into the side cave. The cave mouth half its natural width made it flat-footed. Party members were worried about the Confusing Gaze aura around it, which could result in confused party members attacking each other, so only the champion stood in its path to halt its progress and leave it stuck flat-footed. When the champion went down, the rogue/sorcerer retrieved the unconscious hero with a Friendfetch spell and the monk stepped into her place next to the bandersnatch, taking an attack of oppotunity for his trouble. The monk went down the same turn that the bandersnatch was taken down.
They took 10 minutes to heal, fooled the guards who really wanted to be fooled so that they did not have to fight visitors capable of killing a primal bandersnatch, disabled a trap by throwing the bandersnatch's body into it, talked their way past a Mandragora Swarm (MANDRAGORA: I want to drink fey or sorcerous blood! You smell sorcerous but you don't have blood, do you? FEY-BLOODLINE SORCERER: No, I'm a leshy and have sap like you. How about the blood of a still-bleeding First-World bandersnatch?"), and defeated a 17th-level very advanced Vemerak (it was supposed to be CR 14).
The party's tactics against bandersnatch looked sound to me, but the damage they dealt, often just 20 piercing damage on a longbow hit, felt minor against the bandersnatch's 395 hit points with fast healing 15. Am I missing something that would let them deal more damage? I forgot to convert the Vemerak's treasure to PF2 items, so I told them I would give them the loot next game session on Friday, December 30. Now is my chance to give them level-appropriate gear. What gear would help? Four 14th-level ruffian rogues, a 17th-level ranger, and a 17th-level cleric are heading their way.
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I don’t find it to be a systemic problem, but a consequence of AoO-like reactions being uncommon is definitely that parties don’t expect them, prepare for them, or strategize effective ways to counter them very often.
This baffles me. AoO isn't that uncommon and is impactful enough that you should always assume a creature has it or some other crazy reaction until proven otherwise.
The party's tactics against bandersnatch looked sound to me, but the damage they dealt, often just 20 piercing damage on a longbow hit, felt minor against the bandersnatch's 395 hit points with fast healing 15. Am I missing something that would let them deal more damage?
This is the 2x rogue, ranger, druid, champion, monk, sorcerer party right? Melee into that aura is a coin flip before buffs, but you have so much melee that they should be able to rip it to shreds with or without cold iron weapons or ammo. Base AC 44. Base offense +31. Flank/prone, status bonus +1 minimum, status penalty -1 minimum, leaves you with +32 vs AC 41. Every attack should be doing 3dx+2d6+mod minimum with the rogues adding 3d6 SA and debilitations on top. Even with 400 hp and 15 regen they shouldn't be having much of an issue trading their lives for its hp especially with the obscene numbers advantage and whatever other spell support you have. The confused condition has the note that you spend all your actions striking so smart positioning would prevent the bandersnatch from moving while keeping people out of each other's reach to some extent as well. What was their general gameplan that they wound up trying to plink it to death?
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Enemies almost never miss.
Enemies deal considerable damage.
Enemies almost never fail saves.
Enemies NEVER critically fail saves.
Then you're using loaded dice.
PCs hit maybe half the time
Well, considering that a 60% chance to hit is pretty much the sweet spot that sounds about right.
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Well, I'm level 5, Redeemer Champion of Sarenrae, we play Agent of Edgewatch, I don't feel weak, I'm the group's Medic, and I find it super fun to lift my teammates, after all, that's my dedication, I would feel frustrated if the Archetype I chose in fact, did nothing. From the first level I feel the importance and relevance of my character. Super happy with everything in the game so far!I mean you are playing a champion (aka martial) with the best reation in the game (very few things grant damage immunity) and said reaction has no usage limit.
Meanwhile, the witch is here spending a full action and provoking to grant frightened 1, has a 50% chance to fail (no effect) and the target is immune for a minute.
PF2 is built to favor martials from the ground up.
Not true at higher levels. Casters are king at later levels. Martials get super boring at high level. They are still doing the same swinging thing they did at level 1 at level 15. Not much has changed. They move into position, swing, and do damage with maybe a maneuver or critical effect.
Casters are hammering the entire battlefield, running sustained spells, turning invisible for entire combats, turning into dragons, sustaining storms while launching AoE spells.
I bought into the martials are king thing when I first started PF2. Then I played a druid to 17th level, my mind has changed substantially. Druid was the single more versatile and useful party member in the entire group and it wasn't really close.
Damage, mobility, spell versatility, focus abilities, and overall group impact, druid was powerful as hell. Far exceeding what martials brought to the table.
It's not as bad as PF1 where they can do everything alone, but martials would die without casters at high level same as past editions. Whereas a group of casters could still beat almost everything in the game at higher level. Martials operate at very short range and if that is exploited, they get pretty hammered.
The party's tactics against bandersnatch looked sound to me, but the damage they dealt, often just 20 piercing damage on a longbow hit, felt minor against the bandersnatch's 395 hit points with fast healing 15. Am I missing something that would let them deal more damage?This is the 2x rogue, ranger, druid, champion, monk, sorcerer party right? Melee into that aura is a coin flip before buffs, but you have so much melee that they should be able to rip it to shreds with or without cold iron weapons or ammo. Base AC 44. Base offense +31. Flank/prone, status bonus +1 minimum, status penalty -1 minimum, leaves you with +32 vs AC 41. Every attack should be doing 3dx+2d6+mod minimum with the rogues adding 3d6 SA and debilitations on top. Even with 400 hp and 15 regen they shouldn't be having much of an issue trading their lives for its hp especially with the obscene numbers advantage and whatever other spell support you have. The confused condition has the note that you spend all your actions striking so smart positioning would prevent the bandersnatch from moving while keeping people out of each other's reach to some extent as well. What was their general gameplan that they wound up trying to plink it to death?
Their strategy was to keep the bandersnatch contained to the mouth of the game, which made it flat-footed, and except for the single melee character blocking the bandersnatch stay more than 30 feet away to avoid its attacks of opportunity and its Confusing Gaze aura. Its tail could make an attack of opportunity at 20-foot reach. The bandersnatch could step over the small champion if it wanted, but one victim at a time was enough for it.
The druid was out of slotted high-damage spells, down to area-of-effect spells which are not much good against a single target. He was shadow casting Ray of Frost against the bandersnatch's Reflex DC via a Shadow Signet, item 10.
The fey-bloodline sorcerer has mostly support spells such as Haste, so she was casting Ray of Frost, too, and next healing the champion after she was Friendfetched away from the bandersnatch.
The ranger has Tamrakh’s Hornbow, Item 13, which is a +2 striking composite longbow with no volley trait that twice a day can shoot an explosive arrow. I based it on Tamrakh’s Fist, a +1 striking composite bow generates two explosive arrows per day from page 27 of Lost Omens Legends. She had a +29 attack bonus.
The rogue has an enchanted shortbow whose stats I don't remember, but she had a run of low rolls and repeatedly missed the bandersnatch.
The rogue/sorcerer had stopped carrying his shortbow long ago, instead using his two cantrips Produce Flame and Telekinetic Projectile, whose 30-foot range would have required standing in the Confusing Gaze aura. He pulled throwing knives from a Necklace of Knives, Item 2.
The champion was striking with her +2 fearsome striking shortsword, attack bonus +29 for 2d6+10 piercing damage. She was originally a St 12 Dex 18 build but three ability score boosts have given her Str 18 Dex 20.
The monk dusted off his ranged weapons, such as a Caterwaul Sling, Item 5. He is good about keeping his Handwraps of Might Blows up to level, including a greater striking rune, but not his other weapons. Once he replaced the champion in melee, he dealt significant damage.
Thus, I feel that they are below their level on equipment. They could use a few more greater striking runes, but they probably won't take time to transfer them onto their favorite weapons until after the module. I am considering a high-level wands for the druid and rogue/sorcerer, a Singing Shortbow for the rogue, and a Storm Flash rapier for the champion. The ranger can loot the upcoming enemy ranger's gear later. That leaves the sorcerer and the monk.
At level 16 they should be:
+16 from level
+6 from master
+3 from item
+5 from stat
For +30 total. I accidentally left the apex on in pathbuilder when I got that 31. So yeah, they're already behind on mandatory items and about to be behind another once they hit 17 (apex).
Looks like the switch hitters didn't mug the casters for ranged weapon money either and the monk didn't take the ranged unarmed attack stance feat. Little things to be improved on I suppose. Champion using a shortsword without damage runes is pretty ??? though. Not sure if the ranger's bow has them either. Explosive arrows are nice and all but the DC has long since fallen off and fearsome only works on crits which aren't happening often for a champion in the first place.
Also, nobody in that 7-man party has the craft skill leveled to do transfers in a day on the road? That's rather unfortunate.
At level 16 they should be:
+16 from level
+6 from master
+3 from item
+5 from stat
For +30 total. I accidentally left the apex on in pathbuilder when I got that 31. So yeah, they're already behind on mandatory items and about to be behind another once they hit 17 (apex).Looks like the switch hitters didn't mug the casters for ranged weapon money either and the monk didn't take the ranged unarmed attack stance feat. Little things to be improved on I suppose. Champion using a shortsword without damage runes is pretty ??? though. Not sure if the ranger's bow has them either. Explosive arrows are nice and all but the DC has long since fallen off and fearsome only works on crits which aren't happening often for a champion in the first place.
Also, nobody in that 7-man party has the craft skill leveled to do transfers in a day on the road? That's rather unfortunate.
Thank you, gesalt, for the numbers expected at their level. My remaining problem is how my players defy expectations.
The rogue/sorcerer cast Veil, a spell with 1 hour of duration, five minutes after the party reached 16th level and just as the party entered the underground dungeon. They will reach 17th level before the Veil spell wears off.
The current module, Prisoners of the Blight, was intended for 14th and 15th level. They began it at 15th level due to side quests and I decided to run the last two modules with more levels so that they will end the campaign at 20th level. This is one reason I increased the difficulty of the encounters so much. But this means fewer breaks for shopping between levels, not that any city closer than Kraggodan sells gear at their current level. The PCs had no place in the dungeon to buy +3 weapon potency runes, and they have not yet encountered a 16th-or-higher-level opponent that I could justify having a +3 weapon to loot. Thus, their item bonus from weapon potency runes is only +2.
As for money, hah. In this campaign and in previous PF1 campaigns, my players have a bad habit of generosity. They give loot recovered from bandits back to the original owners. They donate to the needy. They bribe shady officials. They had been picking up barrel-loads of +1 weapons from the Ironfang Legion's soldiers and giving those weapons away for free to civilians who need to fight the legion themselves. At 9th level, they were given a 2,000 gp line of credit in the city of Longshadow to improve the city's defenses, and for each gold piece they spent out of that line of credit, they spent a gold piece out of their own pocket recruiting smugglers to patrol the river and other covert activities.
Thus, I try to plant a few items that will personally appeal to their characters. For example, I had planted a Sturdy Shield (Major), Item 16, for the champion back at 12th level in the storeroom of a 15th-level commander, because the champion cares more about defense than offense.
I am more worried about their characters being underequipped than they are, because below-expected damage against an opponent's hit points makes combat more tedious. My players are great tacticians and know how to win without top-of-the-line gear, but I want them to have better gear for more excitement and less risk.
The early modules in the Ironfang Invasion adventure path had a few statements that said, "After a few weeks,..." The party is incredibly fast and accomplished those goals in days. They hate downtime, because the Ironfang Legion conquers a new village every day. The ranger did take the time to transfer a Flaming Rune from her old longbow to her Tamrakh’s Hornbow. (I had forgotten about that in my previous comment.) I let him do that in only half a day because he and the champion worked together on that when the other party members were healing sick villagers for half a day. They are the party's crafters. I do not let them craft while they travel by riding Phantom Steeds.
As for the DC of the Tamrakh's Hornbow explosions, I wrote, "Imbue Arrow [free-action]: Frequency Twice a day. The next arrow shot from this bow this turn is explosive. When the explosive arrow hits a target, it explodes in a 10-foot burst from any grid point adjacent to the target, dealing 6d6 fire damage to each creature in the area (including the target) in addition to its usual damage to the target. Each creature must attempt a basic Reflex save with DC equal to the shooter's class DC."
Mathmuse, a party that caught up in the narrative and involved in the community can be rewarded in ways that will feel less like taking from desperate folks fleeing for their lives. Some second edition APs will do stuff like have NPCs who can break the rules of downtime expectations and allow for retraining, crafting or other activities at greatly reduced speeds. Fist of the ruby phoenix offers some that can do these things in hours instead of days. An NPC who can create certain runes out of nothing and install them on the NPCs weapon or armor within minutes (maybe some kind of fey weapon smith?) could be in order and would be doing their part for the war effort, rather than giving away the last of their possessions as a refugee.
Downtime is a tricky resource to manage for many players because it feels like time is often a commodity in campaigns and with spells alone characters can do so much in a day compared to what it can feel like the can accomplish in 4 at the pace of downtime, but encounter mode pacing should be considered taxing and fatiguing, especially for characters trying to live in it day after day. A house rule that I often employ in hex crawling campaigns is do default to giving players 8 hours for exploration a day, 8 hours of rest, and 8 that goes towards downtime, so that they can be doing stuff around camp before and after marching around. The players can choose to double up on something, but 2 exploration sessions in a row will fatigue them/exhaust them. This worked very well for getting the party to do stuff like crafting/researching/developing professional hobbies and not just pushing ahead to what is next.
It's neat that we finally have a Bandersnatch. My homebrew version when I converted Ironfang Invasion looked similar, but I took a few more pages out of the gogigeth to further amp up its mobility. I called it Frumious Assault rather than Charge and gave it improved grab and the ability to carry off conscious people. It was a pretty terrifying skirmisher in open terrain. It would attack, fall back if badly injured, and fast heal itself back up before coming back before the party could Treat Wounds.
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Also, good news! Recall Knowledge is getting reworked in November. I think it will be more Q&A, but we don't have a lot of details.
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… why did you necro a year old thread to rant?
I guess it's marginally better than starting a whole new thread for ranting.
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But not as good as digging up one of the old discussions where people have answered the same complaints about recall knowledge already, and skipping the rant entirely.