Whither the Drow in 2022?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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Just curious if there’s been any updates regarding if we might see them as a playable ancestry any time soon and also express my desire to purchase any future sourcebook that could have it.

I’m currently rp’ing my cavern elf as a Drow and my GM kind of, sort of plays along but it would be awesome to have a legit ancestry/heritage with its own unique ancestry feats. Would also be awesome to have an archetype or two focusing on Drow magic. From what I understand, there has already been a Drow themed archetype focusing on hand crossbows, so maybe there is cause for hope.


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No updates, OP. :|

I've always been under the impression that the Drow is a very popular choice in any medieval fantasy-esque TTRPG, and I swore that they'd show up in some way sooner than later in this edition. It is a little funny that you can technically play as Drider but not as a Drow yet, though. (Because of the Fleshwarp ancestry. I did say technically!)

There's also a chance that the Darklands variants to the core ancestries (Drow, svirfneblin and duergar) could also show up as heritages or something of these ancestries. Or ancestry feats with specific prerequisites (in the same vein of nationality ancestry feats).

If they do show up as their own ancestries though, then I'd bet on them being on a Lost Omens: Darklands book, so keep an eye on anything that might foreshadow something like that, OP!


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The last time this came up, I believe JJ said there's no Darklands book currently in the pipeline, so I wouldn't expect it any time terribly soon. PF2 seems to have done very well for itself by focusing on what makes it distinct from D&D, and the drow are among the most iconic D&D things there is, so I'd understand them being a little lower priority.

There's some drow to be met in both Extinction Curse and Abomination Vaults, while even their Bestiary entry notes that they have depth and potential beyond all being mindless evil CE cultists. The stage is set well enough for them as PCs... but I don't expect to see them for a while yet, as the focus on Golarion seems to be pretty firmly elsewhere for now.


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Yeah they don't appear to be coming any time soon, but I am dearly, dearly, dearly hoping that a Darklands book is coming in the next year or so.

I mean, I want it mostly so I can play a Caligni, but Drow would also be very cool.

Liberty's Edge

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Darklands AP that would make Serpentfolk playable as an end result, with a LO Darklands that gives us all those ancestries, would be a great package IMO.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Darklands AP that would make Serpentfolk playable as an end result, with a LO Darklands that gives us all those ancestries, would be a great package IMO.

I'll admit, I'm not that hungry for Darklands stuff - my personal high water mark for all things subterranean was 4e's Underdark book - but playable Serpentfolk are something I've loudly been begging for.

That said, it sounds like Tian Xia's Darklands have all sorts of absolutely bonkers stuff going on, and I want more of that.

Radiant Oath

I am so bored with the standard D&D underdark. OotS had a great strip in Dragon magazine about how it's just like the surface. Drow can wait forever in my opinion.

Now, actually exploring underground can be terrifying. I recommend Lamentations of the Flame Priestess's Veins of the Earth book for some inspiration. It helps a lot that few in LotFP have darkvision. The book also goes to lengths to point out that underground spaces are rarely open or flat. Imagine fighting, in the dark, on a 35-degree slope with a ceiling only 4 feet high. That's interesting.


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AceofMoxen wrote:

I am so bored with the standard D&D underdark. OotS had a great strip in Dragon magazine about how it's just like the surface. Drow can wait forever in my opinion.

Now, actually exploring underground can be terrifying. I recommend Lamentations of the Flame Priestess's Veins of the Earth book for some inspiration. It helps a lot that few in LotFP have darkvision. The book also goes to lengths to point out that underground spaces are rarely open or flat. Imagine fighting, in the dark, on a 35-degree slope with a ceiling only 4 feet high. That's interesting.

Interesting, but not really for a game that relies on 2D visualisation of combat.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I really want a Dark Lands book with Dtow and dwarven history and claustrophobic, oppressive environs with little access to magic shops and built-in limits on teleportation. New kinds of hazards like living caves that move and change to thwart your escape. Different baseline assumptions about the rules like effects that make lacking darkvision sometimes a benefit, or treating cyclic light cycles of certain areas make traveling in the "day" more dangerous, or making food a huge and impactful resource. I really want a clan of super ancient dwarves who have some of the best records of their descendents and offshoots histories


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In 2022 Absalom Reckoning? That's over 2000 years ago to the current year. Why would you care what happened then? ;)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
AceofMoxen wrote:

I am so bored with the standard D&D underdark. OotS had a great strip in Dragon magazine about how it's just like the surface. Drow can wait forever in my opinion.

Now, actually exploring underground can be terrifying. I recommend Lamentations of the Flame Priestess's Veins of the Earth book for some inspiration. It helps a lot that few in LotFP have darkvision. The book also goes to lengths to point out that underground spaces are rarely open or flat. Imagine fighting, in the dark, on a 35-degree slope with a ceiling only 4 feet high. That's interesting.

Interesting, but not really for a game that relies on 2D visualisation of combat.

Even though we play on a 2D map we capture combat in 3 dimensions all the time whether it's with flying, underwater, hopping on a table, using stairs, or interacting with cover. Not to mention the example provided can be translated into PF2e by making the area difficult terrain for anyone medium or larger and Acrobatics check to Balance when moving. Maybe a success on the Acrobatics check makes everything Greater Difficult Terrain for someone who's Medium or larger rather than just Difficult Terrain. What's more, I'm sure there are other perfectly viable ways to represent this flavorfully in-game via the rules provided.


Claxon wrote:
In 2022 Absalom Reckoning? That's over 2000 years ago to the current year. Why would you care what happened then? ;)

Haha! I realized after posting that I missed a perfect opportunity to use an AR date!!


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Claxon wrote:
In 2022 Absalom Reckoning? That's over 2000 years ago to the current year. Why would you care what happened then? ;)

Indeed! I realized after posting that I missed a perfect opportunity to use an AR date!!

But why limit the Drow to 4722 AR? The Drow are eternal and everywhere :D

(as are my accidental double posts it would appear :-/


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Just wanted to add another voice asking for Darklands ancestries! Would love a Lost Omens: Darklands book!

Liberty's Edge

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200 IQ theory time:

Darklands is monumentally popular with modern gamers. Paizo started offering adventures for not only PF2 but also for 5e. If they wanted to maximize the sales and profit from a good Darklands adventure they could work up whatever Darklands 3 part AP adventure as being part of their normal sub-service for 2023 and simultaneously work on being ready to release it as a Hardcover complete release for PF2 and 5e at the same time timed to drop shortly after the final chapter of the softcover release is sold.

Maximum trope coverage and a new way to introduce the Golarion version of Drow to 5e players who have been starved of actual quality Drow adventures.


Outside of some ancestry feats that reflect drow abilities (faerie fire/darkness innate spells, a different suite of ancestral weapons, etc) and light blindness, in what ways are drow actually different than cavern elves?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Outside of some ancestry feats that reflect drow abilities (faerie fire/darkness innate spells, a different suite of ancestral weapons, etc) and light blindness, in what ways are drow actually different than cavern elves?

That about sums it up. In other words: everything important to make a drow character is currently absent.


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They also usually have a +Dex/+Cha spread instead of +Dex/+Int, no? I'm not sure if that's like, very important to Drow fans, buut yeah. There's also that!

Wayfinders

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Drow are distinct enough in aesthetics, lore, mechanics, and place in the world to warrant being a separate ancestry (they're not exactly everyday citizens in Kyonin, Jinin, or among the Mualijae), though I expect them to share certain ancestry feats - whether through them being outright deduplicated, through an archetype-like Additional Feats section, or an uncommon drow feat that grants an elf feat.

What does surprise me is that we haven't even seen a third-party option for them - whether a regular supplement, on Pathfinder Infinite, or even a regular homebrew on r/Pathfinder2eCreations (I only found one and it's not even available anymore).
I understand that Paizo might likely eventually make such an offering obsolete (unless their own take is truly disappointing), but that hasn't stopped people from making several takes on kineticists, shamans and inquisitors.


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I agree that the lore and aesthetics of Drow have been different enough from standard Elves, but PF2 is unlikely to change that.

And since we're talking about a new edition, I'm not sure we need a whole new race. To be honest I think most of the darkland races could be represented by a heritage options with some related feats.

The innate spell like abilities of 1st edition are almost certain to be translated as racial feat (for balance) and weapon proficiencies are also already treated as racial feats.

Honestly, the "mechanical" differences that people want so much are honestly the easiest thing to convert to PF2 because we already have examples of what it will look like.

Ultimately, I think it's trivial to make a cavern elf mechanically play as a Drow, even if we don't have anything official.

But! Darklands focused AP content or a book focused primarily on expanding the lore around these races would be good (and such a book would likely also include the basic feats to modify elves, dwarves, and gnomes into their darkland counterparts).


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Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Outside of some ancestry feats that reflect drow abilities (faerie fire/darkness innate spells, a different suite of ancestral weapons, etc) and light blindness, in what ways are drow actually different than cavern elves?

They also have a focus on fleshwarping, poisons, and attendant alchemical sciences, as well as demon-centric religious practices that could be emulated through feats.

Pathfinder Drow are also broken into fractious, competing houses, and that political mindset could be emulated through their feats as well. I could see it going as far as a level 9 feat that grants different innate spells based on which house/demon lord you serve, and likely some earlier-level feats to do with Deception and Diplomacy.


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Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Outside of some ancestry feats that reflect drow abilities (faerie fire/darkness innate spells, a different suite of ancestral weapons, etc) and light blindness, in what ways are drow actually different than cavern elves?

A cooler name, for starters.


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Kasoh wrote:
A cooler name, for starters.

"Drow" is a much less cool name than like "Duergar", "Caligni", "Xulgath", or "Svirfneblin" though.

If they ever do get around to doing ancestries for the darklands people, I'm more excited about everybody else than I am about the Drow.


I'm looking forward to Munavri being revamped and being less eh.

Also, it's a bit of an ask but it'd be cool to have Seugathi be playable in a Darklands book and be a full-on aberration. Them being mind puppets to neothelids is a big hurdle to overcome lore-wise, though. I'd say some could be freed but if I remember rightly they're designed to biologically self-destruct if something like that happens.


Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Outside of some ancestry feats that reflect drow abilities (faerie fire/darkness innate spells, a different suite of ancestral weapons, etc) and light blindness, in what ways are drow actually different than cavern elves?

I cheated and looked up a couple of the monster entries for Drow in Archives of Nethys. They all have

Spoiler:
a +1 status bonus to saves vs magic which is on top of the usual saves vs mental effects that elves can get through ancestry feats.

That seems like a really powerful bonus, although I don't know what (if any) spells/items might grant the same thing.

To be fair, light blindness is potentially a really big problem to deal with, depending on the campaign. But I'm not sure if the two would balance each other out or not! Curious what the community thinks...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wizard of Ahhhs wrote:
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Outside of some ancestry feats that reflect drow abilities (faerie fire/darkness innate spells, a different suite of ancestral weapons, etc) and light blindness, in what ways are drow actually different than cavern elves?

I cheated and looked up a couple of the monster entries for Drow in Archives of Nethys. They all have ** spoiler omitted **

That seems like a really powerful bonus, although I don't know what (if any) spells/items might grant the same thing.

To be fair, light blindness is potentially a really big problem to deal with, depending on the campaign. But I'm not sure if the two would balance each other out or not! Curious what the community thinks...

Drow ancestral bonus:

Orcs can gain a +1 circumstance bonus to all saves against magic with two ancestry feats - which is generally better than a status bonus. Otherwise, a permanent +1 status bonus on saves vs magic is a mid-level Sorcerer feat, with most other permanent bonuses being more specific in scope.


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Yeah, full blown Drow (especially the Houses/nobility) have so many abilities that'd be hard to replicate in the PF2/PC system without burning up all one's Ancestry feats (delaying access too) AND likely using a full Archetype too.
The +1 Status bonus represents their magic resistance/spell resistance from previous versions. Then there's the bonus vs. mental, the spell-like abilities (which expand a lot at 6th+ in previous editions), and their extraordinary sneakiness. Light Blindness wouldn't even begin to cover that, not for a PC though yes for a one-encounter NPC.

It'd be quite odd if one could play in Darklands cultures alongside NPCs who's tricks were superior to the PCs', even if raw numbers/levels matched well otherwise. Yet balance kinda requires that, right?

So do we settle for watered down Darklands Ancestries where you have to achieve high (or even highest) levels before accessing signature abilities? Or maybe introduce pumped up Ancestries? Or Free Archetypes? Maybe even Ancestry Classes?! (Those last would have to mesh well with normal classes too, so likely using a major swap out/Class Archetype model...as if that's doable across enough classes.)
IMO we can play the watered down version fine w/ Cavern Elf and some backstory (and which is what I've done w/ a half-Drow PC). That interacts well with the current mechanics and narrative. But move that narrative into the Darklands themselves, and PCs would all seem like stunted runts struggling to attain the innate abilities of their peers.


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I'd be okay with "watered down" Drow, given that's how they've handled every other Ancestry and the undead Archetypes.

Silver Crusade

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Wizard of Ahhhs wrote:
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Outside of some ancestry feats that reflect drow abilities (faerie fire/darkness innate spells, a different suite of ancestral weapons, etc) and light blindness, in what ways are drow actually different than cavern elves?

I cheated and looked up a couple of the monster entries for Drow in Archives of Nethys. They all have ** spoiler omitted **

That seems like a really powerful bonus, although I don't know what (if any) spells/items might grant the same thing.

To be fair, light blindness is potentially a really big problem to deal with, depending on the campaign. But I'm not sure if the two would balance each other out or not! Curious what the community thinks...

Spoiler:
That basically replaces their Spell Resistance from previous editions.

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I would snap up a Lost Omens: Darklands book! I would also love an AP, maybe even connecting, continuing on the Abomination Vaults AP taking the PC's to L20. I'm thinking of creating one myself.

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