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I see, the precise strike feature is what's melee only, not finishers. Flying blade only deals with precise strike.Flying Blade
You've learned to apply your flashy techniques to thrown weapons as easily as melee attacks. When you have panache, you apply your precise strike damage on ranged Strikes you make with a thrown weapon within that weapon's first range increment. The thrown weapon must be an agile or finesse weapon. This also allows you to make a thrown weapon ranged Strike for Confident Finisher and any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike.
Emphasis added.
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I'd like to believe that you can apply flying blade to dual finisher, but unlike every other finisher, it specifies melee.I see, the precise strike feature is what's melee only, not finishers. Flying blade only deals with precise strike.Flying BladeYou've learned to apply your flashy techniques to thrown weapons as easily as melee attacks. When you have panache, you apply your precise strike damage on ranged Strikes you make with a thrown weapon within that weapon's first range increment. The thrown weapon must be an agile or finesse weapon. This also allows you to make a thrown weapon ranged Strike for Confident Finisher and any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike.Emphasis added.
Unbalancing Finisher and Stunning Finisher also specify melee. So, Dual Finisher isn't unique.
Read the last sentence of Flying Blades again: "This also allows you to make a thrown weapon ranged Strike for Confident Finisher and any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike."
Flying Blades overtly and specifically allows you to use an Agile or Finesse thrown weapon to perform "any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike." The only way Dual Finisher would be excluded is if it could not benefit from precise strike.
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Exactly. And combine that with little to no damage penalty for going ranged, why go into melee?In addition, particularly later game, there is a lot more disruption that is likely to hit you in melee (improved grab, etc) and more AoO which makes melee even riskier.
Because ranged automatically imparts a damage penalty by existing. Shortbow is d6, longbow is d8 with penalties, crossbow is d8 with reload, and we're not even going to talk about heavy crossbow. To add to that, propulsive is half Str, so you lose damage there too, especially since it's not your primary offense stat.
This is when the standard for 1h melee is d6 finesse/d8 strength, and two-hand d8-d12.
If we're comparing 1 to 1 as closely as possible, the shortbow compares approximately to the scythe. Taking +2 greater striking as an example (with one damage rune), you get:
Shortbow (assuming 14 Str): 3d6+1d6+2, 2d10 deadly (avg 16)
Scythe: 3d10+1d6+5, 2d10 deadly (avg 25)
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Like abilities like the focus haste you really want to cast round 1, but then you don't get a free recharge.Hasted Assault (and I believe all Magus focus spells but don't quote me on that) counts as a conflux spell, so it charges your ability to Spellstrike
I think he's saying that since you want to cast Hasted Assault ASAP to get value out of it your spellstrike doesn't need recharging when you want to use it, therefor wasting that part of the benefit.
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I think he's saying that since you want to cast Hasted Assault ASAP to get value out of it your spellstrike doesn't need recharging when you want to use it, therefor wasting that part of the benefit.Like abilities like the focus haste you really want to cast round 1, but then you don't get a free recharge.Hasted Assault (and I believe all Magus focus spells but don't quote me on that) counts as a conflux spell, so it charges your ability to Spellstrike
Ah that makes sense - in that case my apologies for the misunderstanding.
I've been wanting to try an Investigator with Swipe, but the action economy is brutal unless one of the enemies happens to be my Lead. Suspect of Opportunity is ideal for this kind of thing, but you don't get that until the game is halfway over.
Swipe doesn't work ideally, as you use the result from DaS only against your target, not the other one.
One of the goal of the Investigator is to, as much as possible, have a lead for every combat, and sometimes two. If you manage to do it, then the class is in my opinion perfectly balanced. The issue comes from the fact that it's rarely a given, and even more often that not a rare circumstance.
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Wait a second, that clause with Flying Blade from flying blade says, "any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike." That does not mean that you can do every finisher, that says you can do finishers that can benefit from Precise Strike.
To me it reads this way: Precise Strike is normally only melee, Flying Blade lets you do it with ranged, you can only do the finishers that don't specify melee. Confident Finisher has no range requirement so Flying Blade triggers. But Unbalancing Finisher requires a melee strike and as such it "doesn't include a strike that can benefit from your precise strike.".
Also on that note, Impaling Finisher also specifies melee. So that is 4 Finishers that specify melee and 6 (7 if you count Perfect Finisher separate) that don't specify range.
By default, finishers work with both melee and ranged, unless specified otherwise.
Finishers are spectacular finishing moves that use your panache. You can use a finisher only if you have panache, and you lose your panache immediately after performing a finisher. Once you use a finisher, you can't use any actions that have the attack trait for the rest of your turn.
Some actions that have the finisher trait also grant an effect on a failure. Effects added on a failure don't apply on a critical failure. If your finisher action succeeds, you can still choose to apply the failure effect instead. For example, you might do this when an attack deals no damage due to resistance.
However, precise strike requires a melee weapon.
You strike with flair. When you have panache and you Strike with an agile or finesse melee weapon or agile or finesse unarmed attack, you deal 2 additional precision damage. If the strike is part of a finisher, the additional damage is 2d6 precision damage instead.
But being eligible to precise strike is not NECESSARILY a finisher trait, we can look at lethal finisher, mobile finisher, perfect finisher, targeting finisher for this. Technically, these finishersworks at range without any feats, they just don't apply precise strike damage unless you have flying blade.
Then flying blade has two parts:
When you have panache, you apply your precise strike damage on ranged Strikes you make with a thrown weapon within that weapon's first range increment. The thrown weapon must be an agile or finesse weapon.
This solves our ranged finisher problems, since precise strike applies now.
And
This also allows you to make a thrown weapon ranged Strike for Confident Finisher and any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike.
The second part obviously allows you to do a ranged strike, as long as it qualifies as being thrown as well as agile or finesse, as part of a finisher, any finisher.
The finishers specifying melee is useful in the case of NOT having flying blade, but when you do have flying blade it quite obviously overrides the melee portion of the individual finishers.
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Exactly. And combine that with little to no damage penalty for going ranged, why go into melee?In addition, particularly later game, there is a lot more disruption that is likely to hit you in melee (improved grab, etc) and more AoO which makes melee even riskier.
Because ranged automatically imparts a damage penalty by existing. Shortbow is d6, longbow is d8 with penalties, crossbow is d8 with reload, and we're not even going to talk about heavy crossbow. To add to that, propulsive is half Str, so you lose damage there too, especially since it's not your primary offense stat.
This is when the standard for 1h melee is d6 finesse/d8 strength, and two-hand d8-d12.
If we're comparing 1 to 1 as closely as possible, the shortbow compares approximately to the scythe. Taking +2 greater striking as an example (with one damage rune), you get:
Shortbow (assuming 14 Str): 3d6+1d6+2, 2d10 deadly (avg 16)
Scythe: 3d10+1d6+5, 2d10 deadly (avg 25)
Assuming 14 Str the damage to shortbow would be +1.
In the second case I assume your strength is 20?
With greater striking we can assume weapon specialisation, so something like
3d6+1d6+4, 2d10 Deadly (18)
vs
3d10+1d6+8, 2d10 deadly ( 28)
Not to mention melee affords excellent flanking opportunities and better critical specialization effects (the bow one is... niche)
This thread has been a surprise for me because I often have a hard time building ANY ranged character because of the severe drop in damage (as a player, as a GM I just... make it do damage!)
In our extinction curse game the gunslinger often feels heavily overshadowed because he's hitting for 10-15 damage vs my fighter's 3d10+8 +prone/clumsy/enfeebled/shoved 5 ft on a crit.
And then the magus just does the spiky damage.
So yeah... I think there might be an overvaluation of ranged from the OP in here.
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Some finishers mention Precise Strike : "Make a slashing or piercing Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack that allows you to add your precise strike damage".
Others do not include this wording.
I believe the second part of Flying blade means the former work with ranged weapons, while the latter don't.
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So yeah... I think there might be an overvaluation of ranged from the OP in here.
I mean, look again at the classes the OP is talking about.
The investigator doesn't have a d10 or d12 weapon they can use... hell even a d8 requires some work. An 18 Int 14 Strength Investigator is swinging for 2d6+2 with a shortsword or 2d6+1 with a shortbow instead.
Yeah, the fighter, a class with very small internal damage bonuses, is going to feel die/strength disparities more than most other people... but the OP isn't talking about fighters.
Like I'm sorry I just don't see how "a fighter with a greatsword does a lot of damage" has anything to do with the premise "investigators kind of suck in melee."
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Greatswords are not a fighter exclusive.
OP was talking about Magus, Investigator and Inventor.
Magus and Inventor both greatly benefit from Greatsword usage (although with a magus I'd probly invest in a shifting rune to be able to go reach if I suspect the ennemy has AoO) or polearms as mentionned in the above exemple.
For a melee investigator sure you have less options for weapons, but you still have great crit spec effects in melee and easier flanking.
I will say however that overdrive applying on ranged weapons makes the inventor ranged friendly, but it forces you to go weapon invention to get crit spec and megaton strike with ranged. Since Armor is generally considered the superior choice, I'd say melee Inventor is still the more ''Streamlined'' choice.
Some finishers mention Precise Strike : "Make a slashing or piercing Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack that allows you to add your precise strike damage".
Others do not include this wording.
I believe the second part of Flying blade means the former work with ranged weapons, while the latter don't.
Can you clarify why you believe that ? Specifically the ''others do not include this wording'' part?
Also I had to reread your last sentence 6 times and I'm not sure I read it properly, could you rephrase?
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Some finishers mention Precise Strike : "Make a slashing or piercing Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack that allows you to add your precise strike damage".
Others do not include this wording.
I believe the second part of Flying blade means the former work with ranged weapons, while the latter don't.
Can you clarify why you believe that ? Specifically the ''others do not include this wording'' part?
Also I had to reread your last sentence 6 times and I'm not sure I read it properly, could you rephrase?
Sorry about that.
Dual Finisher (for example) states : "You split your attacks. Make two melee Strikes, one with each required weapon, each against a different foe. If the second Strike is made with a non-agile weapon, it takes a –2 penalty. Increase your multiple attack penalty only after attempting both Strikes."
It does not include the "a weapon or unarmed attack that allows you to add your precise strike damage" part that you can find, for example, in Bleeding Finisher : "Your blow inflicts profuse bleeding. Make a slashing or piercing Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack that allows you to add your precise strike damage. If you hit, the target also takes persistent bleed damage equal to your precise strike finisher damage."
What about Rogue ?
Rogue would be amazing at ranged if not for the fact that it is much harder to get Sneak Attack with a ranged build. But a ranged rogue with Dread Striker in a team with a Dirge of Doom bard is probably a lot better than that same rogue being in melee.
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The investigator doesn't have a d10 or d12 weapon they can use... hell even a d8 requires some work. An 18 Int 14 Strength Investigator is swinging for 2d6+2 with a shortsword or 2d6+1 with a shortbow instead.
Actually, they do. Investigators are Trained in all Martial Weapons. And Strength-based Investigators use Greatsword/Greataxe/Maul as their main weapon (they deal the same damage with a Greatsword than they would with a d6 weapon with Strategic Strike added).
Strategic Strike is there to expand your choice of weapons. Without it, the Investigator would be limited to Strength-based weapons, which is surely not intended. Now, using a Finesse/Agile weapon is nowhere a necessity, and it's actually a burden as it means that your damage drop if you don't benefit from Strategic Strike (an extremely common occurrence as it's certainly half of your attacks).
In my opinion, the reason why the Strength-based Investigator is disregarded is because people have no clue on how to play it (there's also the issue of Armor Proficiency, a classic after the first printing Alchemist). The Strength-based Investigator isn't compelled to use DaS like the Dexterity-based one. DaS is more of a tool for them and as a result it's way harder to use it properly.
So, the difference is that those other classes have no problem getting their additional damage at range, as opposed to the Rogue.
Mastermind rogue is similar, as you can make a target flatfooted with a recall knowledge check.
Mastermind only works once and getting crit success of recall knowledge is not easy, so planning for the 1-minute duration is ill-advised.So, the difference is that those other classes have no problem getting their additional damage at range, as opposed to the Rogue.Mastermind rogue is similar, as you can make a target flatfooted with a recall knowledge check.
You usually just switch targets, but yes you do want an alternate way to gain flat-footed at range in case you fail your recall knowledge or there are no more targets.
Still better than getting into melee range of an enemy. You could get hurt that way.
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No imagine rogue didn’t need flat footed to do it’s extra damage, no backstab or mobility, and it’s main attack was 2 actions. You would almost always want to be ranged.
Bad comparison, as the Rogue doesn't use d12 weapons so even at melee range you'll be limited to d6/d8 weapons.
Now if the Rogue had the choice between a d12 melee weapon with Sneak Attack and a ranged weapon with Sneak Attack, I'm pretty sure there'll be a lot of melee Rogues (I think they are called Barbarians by the way :D ).| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my opinion, the reason why the Strength-based Investigator is disregarded is because people have no clue on how to play it
Not really, it's not particularly difficult to play. The problem with the Strength based investigator is that it's a build pretty much centered around ignoring some of your core class features in order to function, which isn't necessarily appealing for someone drawn to the baseline investigator.
Again, lines like '[DaS] is actually a burden' feels like it does more to lend credence to the OP's point about these class' underlying mechanics being problematic than refuting it.
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They mean that Flying Blade only works with finishers that specifically mention Precise Strike in their text.Precise Strike... If the strike is part of a finisher, the additional damage is 2d6 precision damage instead...All Finishers "can benefit from your precise strike," but not all Finishers require precise strike.
The difference is that the Finisher Trait does not require Agile or Finesse weapons. Some specific finishers, however, do require (e.g. Confident Finisher: "Make a Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack that would apply your precise strike damage") Agile or Finesse weapons.
Therefore, Dual Finisher, even without any language in the feat specifically mentioning Precise Strike, meets the "any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike" qualifier for Flying Blades.
What then are the finishers that do not qualify for Flying Blades ?
What then are the finishers that do not qualify for Flying Blades ?They mean that Flying Blade only works with finishers that specifically mention Precise Strike in their text.Precise Strike... If the strike is part of a finisher, the additional damage is 2d6 precision damage instead...All Finishers "can benefit from your precise strike," but not all Finishers require precise strike.
The difference is that the Finisher Trait does not require Agile or Finesse weapons. Some specific finishers, however, do require (e.g. Confident Finisher: "Make a Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack that would apply your precise strike damage") Agile or Finesse weapons.
Therefore, Dual Finisher, even without any language in the feat specifically mentioning Precise Strike, meets the "any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike" qualifier for Flying Blades.
Impaling finisher.
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The problem with the Strength based investigator is that it's a build pretty much centered around ignoring some of your core class features
Generally, you don't want to ignore major mechanics because that's a way to hate playing that class.
Which one? You use both DaS and Strategic Strike, so you don't ignore a single class feature. You just don't use the Strategic Strike extra damage that is supposed to close the gap between Finesse and non-Finesse weapons.
Again, lines like '[DaS] is actually a burden' feels like it does more to lend credence to the OP's point about these class' underlying mechanics being problematic than refuting it.
DaS is a burden for Dex-based Investigators (which include ranged Investigators). So my point is the opposite of the OP's point.
An investigator technically can wield a greatsword, but there's little reason to.
Who says that? Why would an Investigator be compelled to use a Finesse/Agile weapon? What happens if there's one optional class feature you decide not to use? I hope all your Fighters/Druids/Inventor/Warpriests/Champions use a shield, otherwise you are missing on the class identity.
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No imagine rogue didn’t need flat footed to do it’s extra damage, no backstab or mobility, and it’s main attack was 2 actions. You would almost always want to be ranged.Bad comparison, as the Rogue doesn't use d12 weapons so even at melee range you'll be limited to d6/d8 weapons.
Now if the Rogue had the choice between a d12 melee weapon with Sneak Attack and a ranged weapon with Sneak Attack, I'm pretty sure there'll be a lot of melee Rogues (I think they are called Barbarians by the way :D ).
A rogue has a d12 ranged option available in with heavy crossbow worshiping Zohls or via a Gunslinger/Ranger feat for the die increase. Halfling Sling Staff + Titan Slinger works versus Large+ targets. There may be others. Certainly quite a few d10 ranged options.
A rogue has a few d8 melee options that still qualify for sneak attack
Dueling Spear, Elven Curve Blade, Spiked Chain, but you have to get them via feats.
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The major benefit for DAS is you get to use intelligence on your attack rolls as well as add damage.
We disagree on that. The major benefit of DaS is to roll your attack and choose what to do with that. The Intelligence substitution happens only during half of your career if you start with 16 in your attack stat and adds just a +1, so it's hardly that important. The extra damage is just there to account for the loss of damage of Finesse/Agile weapons.
As a side note, if you really want to benefit from DaS on a Strength-based Investigators, Ancestry's Unarmed attacks are your friends. Orc's Tusks is for example an excellent way of getting both the advantage of a Greatsword (great damage, always) and the advantage of Strategic Strike (Intelligence substitution and greater damage, when DaS).
When it comes to class identity, I really think the Strength Investigator feels like an Investigator. You still use DaS a lot, as it's akin to True Strike for you. And you have more flexibility in your build (you don't have to top Intelligence) to create some Investigators that you can't build otherwise, like the Charisma-based Interrogation Investigator, who's definitely an Investigator fantasy (Rorschach from Watchmen).
Still, I agree with you that Strategic Strike would have been better if it also took the Strength-Investigator into account (the Intelligence substitution for example should be possible with a Greatsword, I don't see why they limited it). But grabbing an Elven Curve Blade on a Strength-based Investigator is definitely a bad idea to me: it's the worst of 2 worlds.
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I'd probably just make multiple attacks though considering the action cost.
The action cost can be a free action. It's actually the moment where DaS is really worth it. When you have to pay an action, the Investigator's efficiency goes down a lot.
I suppose it's still handy if you switch your targets frequently.
There are many cases where you can choose your target.
spell strike in particular is pretty good if you have the patience to wait for DAS to crit.
Spellstrike is a bit costly unless you have free action DaS. Quick Draw and an Archebus is way easier to use.
Hear me out though, with just 14 strength and dex, access to a dueling sword through ancestry, and multiclass fighter to get dual handed assault at 8th level to hit with d10s in melee and still get your strategic strike damage.
Nice one, but costly (you need both Strength and Dexterity on an Intelligence-based build). I'd have chosen a Half-elf to get it online by level 10 without such high attribute cost.
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I always forget about half elf. But that would only work at 12th unless free archetype. And then you'd miss out on suspect of opportunity. But we're getting off track. Melee vs ranged right? Melee is tougher because of the action cost and lack of extra damage aside from bonus from strength. With the right move like dual handed assault or spellstrike, melee is alright, otherwise a bow works better than your other options. That's my take.
Melee does more damage than ranged. You either get bigger dice, like your Dual-Handed Assault example, or extra damage options, like Spellstrike, or you get Strategic Strike damage all the time with a Greatsword.
So there's a clear advantage of melee over ranged.The big thing with ranged is that you don't have to move and as such you can attack more. But the way Strategic Strike works means that you won't get any damage bonus on your subsequent attacks. So it's not really that interesting. In my opinion, ranged is mostly easier to play, not stronger than melee. Both options have their pros and cons.