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Did you do any math on this? Because my Strategic Strike ranged Investigator is miles in damage behind a 2h Barbarian in actual play.
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Did you do any math on this? Because my Strategic Strike ranged Investigator is miles in damage behind a 2h Barbarian in actual play.
I mean that's going to be true of any Investigator build.
I agree only about Magus due the AoO problem with spellstrike.
But for investigator, IMO it's really was designed to avoid melee at all. Usually I recommend investigator as a ranged alternative to those what to play with a ranged rogue due the difficulties that rogue has to do precision damage at range.
I still didn't studied the inventor too closely to give an opinion about it.
But IMO this problem about ranged new classes are better than melee new classes is more about Magus than really a general problem. Complain about melee investigator for me is too close to complain about melee alchemist. They simply don't work well in this situation because they aren't really focused in martial abilities.
And backing to Magus question it's difficulty is more about what the Paizo done to all melee spells. Any other caster that tries to cast Chill Touch, in PF1/3.5 you can do this more safely due concentration checks in PF2 they swithched the mechanic to recall knowledge to know if your opponent is able to do AoO. And for many people this change isn't rasonable due the Concentration in PF1 simply improves until become impossible to fail while in PF2 the AoO increases to about 30% in last levels (See here in All Easytool Monsters, AoO tab).
I agree completely with this assessment.
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The post core classes that have a choice between melee and ranged (Specifically talking about Magus, Investigator, and to a lesser extent Inventor) are all much much better served by range. It sadly isn't even a contest this is for multiple reasons.
I pretty much agree.
The investigator is almost a ranged only class. Not only is ranged much better than melee but a melee investigator is quite bad (its playable but definitely a bottom tier martial). Its close to the non viable line (considering only its ability in combat, it has a lot going on outside of combat)
While the ranged Magus is better than the melee Magus the melee Magus is still most definitely a viable character.
I haven't seen or played the inventor so I'm pretty much theory crafting when I say that it seems to support both melee and ranged options fairly well (at least when its Armor option gets to be the equivalent of plate mail)
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I'm going to disagree with you on this point regarding Investigators.
All three of these classes are MAD
INT not only benefits their main function as skill-monkeys, they can also use it for...
- Unarmed melee attacks
- Armed melee attacks
- Armed ranged attacks
And optionally for...
- Quick Tinctures (with Alchemical Studies)
- Athletics maneuvers (with Athletic Strategist)
- Spells (with Wizard, Magus, or Witch multiclass)
To me, that doesn't seem very MAD.
I love the fact that they can easily switch between ranged attacks, melee attacks, and spell attacks.
I tend to think of Investigators as martials with the Single Ability Dependency and action economy of a Wizard.
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Magus definitely suffers a bit from being ranged in that Starlit span is weaker than the other Hybrid studies in terms of available feats (not just hybrid specific ones, but also some just don't work as well or at all with a ranged weapon) and not getting an extra benefit from arcane cascade, the focus spell is also a tad underwhelming (it's ok, but you'll have plenty of fights where it doesn't really do anything).
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IME, and to a much lesser extent than the classes OP mentioned, Swashbucklers benefit from range if they have Flying Blade. Sometimes you want to Tumble into Flank, other times is best do attack at range and save an action.
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Investigators are mad in the sense that they still need at least 16 dex to max out light armor. Less mad than an alchemist but still gonna need that ac.
WTH?
So any non-medium/heavy armor are MAD due the need of DEX? Almost all casters need high DEX to have a good AC, this doesn't turn it MAD.
MAD classes is when you key atribute isn't cover your main combat capabilities just like Warpriests, Battle Oracles, non-bomber Alchemists, Magus, Monks where you are unable to max some of their main capacities. Ex.: No matter how you focus in STR, Warpriests could never benefits it's maximum due it isn't a key atribute or Battle Oracle that is basically STR based but also is limited to 16 due it's key atribute being CAR.
Investigator isn't include due devise stratagem allow you to use INT to hit. And it's lacks in bonus damage could be partially compensated using weapons that have damage values that independent from STR like crossbows, firearms and bombs.
If they offer a melee option it should be roughly equivalent. I mean the iconic investigator uses a sword cane.
I can't agree with you. I understand that iconic investigator uses a sword but yet the main class mechanics is way more turned to ranged attacks than for melee ones. It's mechanics is way more focused to work better for reload weapons than melees. This doesn't turn it useless but isn't it's best option.
I could easily say the same for rogues and barbarians. These classes are melee focused. Use then has ranged weapon isn't prohibited at all but if far from optimized.
As for Magus, AoO is a small part of it, but even without that the problem remains. Tons of flat damage makes a bow insanely good.
But the biggest issue is just that being ranged instantly solves the classes action econ problems and makes their d8 nature easier.
The action economy problem for melees aren't just for Magus, but also happen to rogues (due it's necessity to flat-foot their opponents), to rangers (due it's need to hunt prey) and to swashbuchler (panache is pretty terrible). But yet this not turn rogues and rangers bad classes due to melee strikes is less action efficient, just are more complex to play.
The HP isn't a problem IMO too is the same user for rogues.
I repeat what I say. The only real problem here that I see if AoO against magus due it's main strategy basically depends from spellstrike and such AOO heavily punishes any Magus that's try to use fight closer.
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Magus definitely suffers a bit from being ranged in that Starlit span is weaker than the other Hybrid studies in terms of available feats (not just hybrid specific ones, but also some just don't work as well or at all with a ranged weapon) and not getting an extra benefit from arcane cascade, the focus spell is also a tad underwhelming (it's ok, but you'll have plenty of fights where it doesn't really do anything).
Starlit Span can Spellstrike every turn. Not sure it needs more.
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IME, and to a much lesser extent than the classes OP mentioned, Swashbucklers benefit from range if they have Flying Blade. Sometimes you want to Tumble into Flank, other times is best do attack at range and save an action.Battle dancers focusing on range with 2 star knives and dual finisher is pretty efficient.
Be careful about that, Dual Finisher asks for a melee Strike, unlike most Finishers. So you can expect some GMs to forbid ranged Dual Finisher (as it would be pretty strong).
To answer the question, the Inventor works both for melee and ranged. The Armor Inventor is definitely a melee character, and the damage bonus is not high enough to reduce the gap between melee and ranged.
In my opinion, the Investigator works equally at ranged or in melee, it's just that melee Investigators are way harder to build and master. I want to play one, maybe in Outlaws of Alkenstar when a friend will launch it, I'll see if my intuition is in line with reality.
About the Starlit Span Magus, I've already been overt about it. It's in my opinion way overpowered and should be nerfed.
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I don't think it's bad, it's just awkward that it doesn't work with a core mechanic the rest of the subclasses have.Magus definitely suffers a bit from being ranged in that Starlit span is weaker than the other Hybrid studies in terms of available feats (not just hybrid specific ones, but also some just don't work as well or at all with a ranged weapon) and not getting an extra benefit from arcane cascade, the focus spell is also a tad underwhelming (it's ok, but you'll have plenty of fights where it doesn't really do anything).Starlit Span can Spellstrike every turn. Not sure it needs more.
They should have made ranged spellstrike work only when you're in Arcane Cascade. But then people would have complained about the restriction.
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Be careful about that, Dual Finisher asks for a melee Strike, unlike most Finishers. So you can expect some GMs to forbid ranged Dual Finisher (as it would be pretty strong).IME, and to a much lesser extent than the classes OP mentioned, Swashbucklers benefit from range if they have Flying Blade. Sometimes you want to Tumble into Flank, other times is best do attack at range and save an action.Battle dancers focusing on range with 2 star knives and dual finisher is pretty efficient.
Indeed. By RAW, it is melee only.
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Counterpoint: with my Starlit Span magus I regularly choose to go into melee because my AC and HP are good enough for it. I'm not better per se at melee although also not that much worse (monk multiclass for flurry). But the real advantage is impact on the battlefield: we have a swashbuckler and fighter, and sorcerer and witch in the party. When I go into melee it becomes much harder for enemies to get around the front line and threaten our backline. And for the frontline many more AoOs and flankings happen.
Although I have to say, this has become one of the most enjoyable switch hitters I've ever played.
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I tried Eldritch Archer investigator before, it was horrible, unbearable action economy. I have another investigator, forensics with melee focus (bloody barbers background, bloodletting kukri, risky surgery...) which works well enough. My AC and HP are normal for frontline. My damage isn't barbarian level but it's acceptable at a typical 4d6+2 when going strategic (level 5).
But I've been looking into picking up another alchemist dedication because I think bombs and strategic attacks combine nicely. If I were to start all over again I might go for a Int/Cha heavy investigator with some cantrips and alchemist dedication, switching to the cantrips if the strategy isn't promising. Ranged does look good for investigators.
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Magus is not any better than eldritch archer when it comes to action economy...
The only reason why magus doesn't feel as bad is that they changed it from 3 actions every time to 2 actions now and 1 action, combined with conflux spell resetting it.
This makes little sense to me, it not only feels better but it is much better.
Getting to do stuff now is always better than getting to do stuff later. You don't even have to pay back the debt in actions unless you want to.
Move + Spellstrike is something impossible to do if it was a 3A activity and only this improves the action economy immensely as it gives you much more freedom in how to use your turn.
On paper, exchanging the ability to fight at range and be able to realistically make an spellstrike every turn could be equal to higher base damage and extra benefits but spellstriking every other turn. The problem of melee magus to me is the mixture of AoO encounters (even if they are rare you feel miserable when they happen if you don't outreach them) mixed with 8hp/level and that the benefits of non-starlit studies are not good enough.
Making Arcane cascade a free action stance and improving a bit the benefits of the studies could have been enough to bring them all closer, IMO.
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Little trick for magus I almost always use is to use repeat a spell for your exploration activity.
Then when a fight breaks out your last action always was casting a spell, so you can arcane cascade+spellstrike or arcane cascade move strike.
Magus is not any better than eldritch archer when it comes to action economy...The only reason why magus doesn't feel as bad is that they changed it from 3 actions every time to 2 actions now and 1 action, combined with conflux spell resetting it.This makes little sense to me, it not only feels better but it is much better.
Getting to do stuff now is always better than getting to do stuff later. You don't even have to pay back the debt in actions unless you want to.
Move + Spellstrike is something impossible to do if it was a 3A activity and only this improves the action economy immensely as it gives you much more freedom in how to use your turn.
Eldritch Archer (EA to become easier) archetype strongly depends from your base class. Even having a more strict action economy than Magus a Fighter based EA have stronger hit/critical rate than Magus. Also a Precision Ranger based EA can add it's precision damage to Eldritch Shot and this works pretty well due ranger's limit of 1 precision damage per turn.
I tried Eldritch Archer investigator before, it was horrible, unbearable action economy. I have another investigator, forensics with melee focus (bloody barbers background, bloodletting kukri, risky surgery...) which works well enough. My AC and HP are normal for frontline. My damage isn't barbarian level but it's acceptable at a typical 4d6+2 when going strategic (level 5).
But I've been looking into picking up another alchemist dedication because I think bombs and strategic attacks combine nicely. If I were to start all over again I might go for a Int/Cha heavy investigator with some cantrips and alchemist dedication, switching to the cantrips if the strategy isn't promising. Ranged does look good for investigators.
I agree that do a Investigator EA isn't a good choice due the Devise a Stratagem action cost. For other side the alchemist dedication allows creating bombs a thrown them using Devise a Stratagem's precision bonus this is way interesting due the fact this will increase a lot some bombs damage at same time that will allow to the investigator keep a good action economy also when combined with Alchemical Sciences gives a strong versatility for all combat and non-combat situations to the char.
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Ahhhh hadn't seen that update. Damnit !
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Well today I was playing my staff magus, and I'll admit, getting cascade going has tricky action economy. Although that was also due to fights just being over very very quickly.
The one substantial fight against flying enemies though, I started out standing next to the fighter, put magic weapon on his glaive and using that to get my twisting staff cascade going. And then using trip to pull an enemy down to the ground where everyone could get at it.
I think magus thrives on 1-action spells like Shield, True Strike, True Target, Power Words, Guidance (from a pendant of the occult), and particularly, Jump to get cascade going. Jump is very nice because it moves you and satisfies cascade.
Some kind of 1-action cantrip that involves a move and some other benefit would be glorious for magi.
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Well today I was playing my staff magus, and I'll admit, getting cascade going has tricky action economy. Although that was also due to fights just being over very very quickly.
The one substantial fight against flying enemies though, I started out standing next to the fighter, put magic weapon on his glaive and using that to get my twisting staff cascade going. And then using trip to pull an enemy down to the ground where everyone could get at it.
I think magus thrives on 1-action spells like Shield, True Strike, True Target, Power Words, Guidance (from a pendant of the occult), and particularly, Jump to get cascade going. Jump is very nice because it moves you and satisfies cascade.
Some kind of 1-action cantrip that involves a move and some other benefit would be glorious for magi.
I played a staff magus in a level 4 one-shot and due to arcane cascade being almost compulsory my first turn was always a set up turn.
Most of the time I stood my ground during my first turn, casting a buff spell + Arcane Cascade or using Ray of Frost + Arcane Cascade. Between only using spellstrike turn 2 onwards and being limited to spellstriking every other turn, I only got to spellstrike twice in the last encounter.
Melee magus is very fun, I personally find staff and inexorable iron among the most fun builds I ever played, but they are too limited and specially, too disruptible to feel rewarding unless you play really well and the encounter doesn't suck for you.
And yes, a 1 action cantrip that includes a stride would fix most of the problems.
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*inserts two copper pieces*
I don't have a whole lot to contribute but I generally agree with the premise, perhaps not to say they're "much" stronger but I can see the case for justifying that.
The position this leaves the system at the current time means that support is more ranged/caster dominant. I have an inkling that the next few books are going to take a different tack and lean into melee, martial, and mundane aspects of character options.
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Gun inventor and nior gun investigator are the only post core martial classes I could justify going ranged on from a character concept standpoint. The rest would engage in glorious melee! (Insert custodes meme here)
Little trick for magus I almost always use is to use repeat a spell for your exploration activity.
Then when a fight breaks out your last action always was casting a spell, so you can arcane cascade+spellstrike or arcane cascade move strike.
Even without the update it might not have worked: you cast AND move so your movement might be the last action. It's also an activity you don't use all the time as it notes "In order to prevent fatigue due to repeated casting, you’ll likely use this activity only when something out of the ordinary occurs."
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I feel like this might be one hole in PF2's action economy. New classes tend to have more rigorous action routines which make movement feel that much rougher for them... combine that with mediocre defenses and you end up with a lot of incentive to not bother going in.
I think it's telling though to see so much of this conversation on Magi and Investigators when those are the classes that suffer both from lower base HP and restrictive action economy that leaves them spending extra actions round-by-round.
Swashbucklers and Inventors getting some lesser mention, where Swashbucklers have 10 HP but poor action economy and Inventors have okay action economy but 8 HP.
Seems like a paradigm that holds up... though personally I think for the most part Inventors can be fine either way.
They should have made ranged spellstrike work only when you're in Arcane Cascade. But then people would have complained about the restriction.
That makes the ranged magus slightly more annoying to play while doing nothing to make playing a melee magus more pleasant. Everybody is slightly worse off, but balance doesn't really change. Dunno how that helps anyone.
Yeah I think the Swashbuckler ended up suffering a bit from the playtest because of how controversial the Witch, Oracle and Investigator were. Lots of people just went "cool mechanic" and left it at that.
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It feels better because you have the illusion of better action economy, fact is you don't. Out of sight out of mind, as the saying goes.
But you do? It's undeniable that more flexible action economy is better than more rigid one. It is strictly superior with 2 + 1 than 3. There is no illusion about it.